You are nothing without the ancestors as a foundation; they pointed to the orisha as the way of life. Some mental-slaves in an attempt to free themselves, throw away the European god and the African god in an attempt to just "believe in themselves." (I will not call their brand names but they know themselves).

While this sounds good, it shows the ignorance of the mental-slave who mistakes the European and African definition of god as the same. It is only for the Eurasian that God is a separate being from human beings. In African culture, we are literally gods. This is the meaning behind Oshun's mirror: it provides the reflection of our god-self. Therefore, to just "believe in yourself" and "believe in god" is the same thing in Indigenous African theology.

So you may ask, what is the rationality behind the veneration of the ancsetors? How will that be of help in my endeavour?

Firstly, understand that the true veneration of the ancestors which is known as (Egungun ) in Yoruba means to perpetuate their name and deeds into the present. And all other ceremony attached to it is a fun fair. Just like killing chicken on christmas day or throwing nock out.which has nothing to do with Jesus birth, same also apply to the ceremonial display during egungun festival.


Even the europoids who teach you that our culture is barbaric are big time ancestors worshiper. And no race worship their ancestors more than the Europoids, though ironically they denounce ancestor worship (they purposely denounce the practice so that you don't worship your ancestors). When they force you to learn about their ancestors in school (every subject requires knowledge of the Europoid achievers of that subject) they are practicing ancestral veneration by forcing you to learn of them when in reality you don't need to know about their ancestors to succeed in the subject.

The attachment of Europoid ancestral names to all matters of mathematics, subjects, etc is the devotion they show to their ancestral veneration. As you can see, the Europoid's ancestors work hard for them.

As for the African, some of us have largely forgotten our ancestors just like the fundamentalist Christians and Muslim.we definitely give them no role in modernity by using their names to define concepts in math, science, etc. Because we ignore our ancestors, our ancestors ignore us and do not lend us their power. And that is why we found ourself where we are today.



Please for educational purpose, I will like you to tell me the meaning of masquerades in your local dialect. I am aware of that of igbo is called (mmanwu). What about uhrohobo, Efik , idoma , Ebira and so on. It will be of help to me. Google seems to disappoint me.

What you ignorantly call ancestors are demons pretending to be spirit of deceased ancestors

Kenneth4u205:
What you ignorantly call ancestors are demons pretending to be spirit of deceased ancestors

ok. Thanks for your contribution. I am still awaiting answer to the names of masquerade in various Nigeria dialect ...

Kenneth4u205:
What you ignorantly call ancestors are demons pretending to be spirit of deceased ancestors

Big up

vaxx:
ok. Thanks for your contribution vaxx
I am still awaiting answer to the names of masquerade in various Nigeria dialect ...

It's a very good contribution
As a matter of fact, a classic example of what Kenneth4u205 hinted
is what appeared to Saul when he was with the witch of Endor, trying to make contact with a dead Samuel

MuttleyLaff:
Big up

It's a very good contribution
As a matter of fact, a classic example of Kenneth4u205 hinted
is what appeared to Saul when he was with the witch of Endor, trying to make contact with a dead Samuel

Demon is a corruption of daemon(a Latin word). Meaning lesser spirit. Informally as well, it is use to to brand police officer in Ausratlia as well. It has nothing to do with ancestors... I have much to say concerning this but i am not deraling my own thread as it serve no useful purpose for this topic.

vaxx:
Demon is a corruption of daemon(a Latin word). Meaning lesser spirit. Informally as well, it is use to to brand police officer in Ausratlia as well. It has nothing to do with ancestors... I have much to say concerning this but Obama not deraling my own thread as it serve no useful purpose for this topic.

Isnt the voice coming out from the masquerade attributed to be the voice of the dead speaking?
So Kenneth4u205 is right, if he wrote:
"What you ignorantly call ancestors are demons pretending to be spirit of deceased ancestors"

The voice of a lesser spirit was heard,
when Saul visited the witch of Endor
with the aim of speaking with dead Samuel

MuttleyLaff:
Isnt the voice coming out from the masquerade attributed to be the voice of the dead speaking?
So Kenneth4u205 is right, if he wrote:
"What you ignorantly call ancestors are demons pretending to be spirit of deceased ancestors"

The voice of a lesser spirit was heard,
when Saul visited the witch of Endor
with the aim of speaking with dead Samuel

And you believe this without subjecting it into any critical thinking. Just because it is said from the bible.

vaxx:
And you believe this without subjecting it into any critical thinking.
Just because it is said from the bible.

OK, let's do a simple critical thinking here.
vaxx, whose is the voice coming out from a speaking, grunting, yelping and/or squealing masquerade?

MuttleyLaff:
OK, let's do a simple critical thinking here.
vaxx, whose is the voice coming out from a speaking, grunting, yelping and/or squealing masquerade?

I once explain this phenomenon in hopefullanlord thread that Yoruba spirituality express their thoughts and emotion thru symbol and art craft. Likewise I also explain that the masquerade were human like me and you .they are only in the mask just to depict the basis of egungun.You were in that very thread. So I still don't see the reasons you are asking same question.

I am sure many nollywood movie already corrupt your veiw toward the truth yoruba spirituality, one such popular veiw is the idea of using orisa to "communicate" with the ghost of a dead ancestor. And likewise biblical teaching has also block from seeking further clearance.

Listen carefully bro , there is no such thing as the ghost of a dead ancestor so it is impossible for you to "communicate" with such a ghost.

Why?

In Ifa, you are your ancestors. They are not distinct spirits but part of your total spirit. Therefore, the only "ghost" you can communicate with is the ancestral spirit that live in and as you. If you seek to communicate with a relative that was alive after you were born, then you should look into the descendants of the family born after that relative's death. They come back thru their descendants (children, nieces, cousins, etc). In Ifa, reincarnation is explaimed to occurs thru our ethnic group and scientific speaking, it requires related dna sequence to be able to have same traits.

So the only way for you to interact with the Egungun (ancestors) is in being them and continuing their works into the future. So the idea of speaking to ghost literarilly is a mere superstition.

You will realize that most superstitious practices (such as ghost summoning, fortune-telling, etc) are derived from a lack of self-respect that fuels lazy behavior that seeks alternatives to doing real work such as continuing the building projects of the ancestors or using critical thinking skills to arrive at decisions.

I want to clear a doubt in you. Indeed we DO practice ancestral veneration. We build altars to them. We also have Egungun ceremonies where we celebrate their achievements. However, none of this is summoning a ghost. What we are doing is remembering that they are us and that they live thru us. We communicate with them by finishing their good works. The ancestors are not ghosts. We ARE our ancestors.......

While you're busy worshipping that beige or white deity called Jesus, or following the beige Mohammad, or some other non-Black deity that doesn't look a thing like you and hasn't done a thing for you, I'll be paying obeyance to the Black woman as the Supreme Being incarnate.

""Mo juba Osun"".

Her love heals the world. However, like any smart woman, she doesn't just love anyone who says they love her. You have to prove to her that you love her. That is when she will love you back, and bless you with the power of her love...an invincible power that has no foes that can challenge her.

vaxx:
While you're busy worshipping that beige or white deity called Jesus,

, hello Vax I have reasons to be particularly interested in the topic you just raised. Would you mind talking more about her? Moreover can I contact you privately for a more intimate discussion.

Cheers.

LoJ:

, hello Vax I have reasons to be particularly interested in the topic you just raised. Would you mind talking more about her? Moreover can I contact you privately for a more intimate discussion.

Cheers.

As requested, Oshun is the divinity of the imagination. She is thus the source of all things that are based on imagination/emotions. This is of course, images like art, but it also represents other things such as joy. The fact that joy is not a natural state of being but a product of your imagination is a central thesis of IFA: Orisa Spirituality. So Once this truth is fully understood, one can produce joy at any time because the joy does not come from an object but from the imagination. The ability to summon joy at any moment is essential to progress because joy is the fuel of the spirit.

vaxx:
I once explain this phenomenon in hopefullanlord thread that Yoruba spirituality express their thoughts and emotion thru symbol and art craft. Likewise I also explain that the masquerade were human like me and you .they are only in the mask just to depict the basis of egungun.You were in that very thread. So I still don't see the reasons you are asking same question.

I am sure many nollywood movie already corrupt your veiw toward the truth yoruba spirituality, one such popular veiw is the idea of using orisa to "communicate" with the ghost of a dead ancestor. And likewise biblical teaching has also block from seeking further clearance.

Listen carefully bro , there is no such thing as the ghost of a dead ancestor so it is impossible for you to "communicate" with such a ghost.

Why?

In Ifa, you are your ancestors. They are not distinct spirits but part of your total spirit. Therefore, the only "ghost" you can communicate with is the ancestral spirit that live in and as you. If you seek to communicate with a relative that was alive after you were born, then you should look into the descendants of the family born after that relative's death. They come back thru their descendants (children, nieces, cousins, etc). In Ifa, reincarnation is explaimed to occurs thru our ethnic group and scientific speaking, it requires related dna sequence to be able to have same traits. .....

@ bolded is really deep.
Im reading this particular post for the second time. This time as i read, images from a seasonal cartoon 'The avartar:the last air bender' just flashed before my eyes.. The scene where avatar was being taught that his past lifes(previous incarnations) all reside within him nd he was capable of accessing the knowledge and power they had because they were all a part oh nd vice versa...

While i pondered on your words still, trying to grasp the wisdom, another image from 'The lion King' flashed before my eyes. That scene where simba met the baboon priest for the first time. The baboon took simba to a pool of water(simba actually thought he was going to find his father alive) and asked him to steer into it.....
simba's face in the pool actually transformed to his dads. And the baboon said "you see, he lives in you"...
Its so amazing how my mind is using this cartoons i thought i had forgotten to explain your wisdom. Thank you sir.


During jesus' transfiguration, moses, abraham and elijah appeared to jesus nd his disciples. How are we sure that those too aren't demons masquerading as the old prophets. This single scene disrupts the whole Christian dogma of judgement day nd ressurrection. Infact the whole Christian tenet has been shattered by its very own words. Such a shame.

kkins25:

@ bolded is really deep.
Im reading this particular post for the second time. This time as i read, images from a seasonal cartoon 'The avartar:the last air bender' just flashed before my eyes.. The scene where avatar was being taught that his past lifes(previous incarnations) all reside within him nd he was capable of accessing the knowledge and power they had because they were all a part oh nd vice versa...

While i pondered on your words still, trying to grasp the wisdom, another image from 'The lion King' flashed before my eyes. That scene where simba met the baboon priest for the first time. The baboon took simba to a pool of water(simba actually thought he was going to find his father alive) and asked him to steer into it.....
simba's face in the pool actually transformed to his dads. And the baboon said "you see, he lives in you"...
Its so amazing how my mind is using this cartoons i thought i had forgotten to explain your wisdom. Thank you sir.

Cartoons and animations are one of the ways of increasing your cognitive abilities. And you are just doing a whole lot of good to yourself . I remember when I watched avatar""

The concept of ancestral trait of your Yoruba understanding is very related to atavism which has a very solid science backing. ""Atavism is the sudden reappearance of ancestral traits in the present generations. Many examples are present such as appearance of tail in a new born, more chest hairs, greater number of mammae in males etc"" i am not saying this to position Yoruba spiritual system scientifically but to justify and validate it. .

During jesus' transfiguration, moses, abraham and elijah appeared to jesus nd his disciples. How are we sure that those too aren't demons masquerading as the old prophets. This single scene disrupts the whole Christian dogma of judgement day nd ressurrection. Infact the whole Christian tenet has been shattered by its very own words. Such a shame.

hmmm, interesting and making sense . Tell me more.

vaxx:
As requested,

Hello Vaxx,
Thank you for your kind answer. I sent you a private message.

You said in a previous message that you worship osun. Do you have any personal experience with the goddess? Have you ever met her? Are you allied? Is there in Ifa any particular mean of contacting and dealing with her?

Moreover, I assume you know the 7 great orishas. What is their importance and what is the role of Osun among these?

Your answers can help me a lot. Thank you.

LoJ:

Hello Vaxx,
Thank you for your kind answer. I sent you a private message.

You said in a previous message that you worship osun. Do you have any personal experience with the goddess? Have you ever met her? Are you allied? Is there in Ifa any particular mean of contacting and dealing with her?

Moreover, I assume you know the 7 great orishas. What is their importance and what is the role of Osun among these?

Your answers can help me a lot. Thank you.

oh my bad , I lost the password to this very moniker. If you will not mind posting your email here. ""Let me have your address"" And to all others three moniker who sent me pm as well Pls you can post your email here too.

In regards to your question above, I never said I worshiped osun, I said I pay obeyance to osun.and as well to other orisha(both study and unstudy one). I shall be creating a thread about those ones that are not popular like the 7 orisha soon.

I am personally an ifa adherent but with much interest in all other orisha as well. Since the purpose is to annexed them to my own benefit. I already create a thread on how you can awaken this orisha without any form of ritual or jamboring. You even commented on that very thread..

Anyone willing to venerate Osun's powers can go ahead with the use of efun, mirror and all other beautiful ornaments( the object are used to control imagination ) it is thru this we learn how we can use beauty to move joy thru the world.

Osun is also a deity of healing thru images and joy. Because of the purity, beauty, and pricelessness of her power, her color is gold.

So to unlock her power is to recognise that joy does not come from objects, but from our own imagination (emotional images we create in our mind).paying obeyance to Osun is the cultivation of how to control our imagination to produce joy on demand.This is because joy is a POWER. It can heal sickness and it can destroy violence.

I am from osun state. I love osun worshippers. The deity is so interesting and the rites so full of childish innocence, yet with strong undertones of sexualism, it makes me just love the deity

Jesus Christ is the Way, the Truth and the Life.
All this is modernised idolatry.
Stop worshipping the creature. Worship only the creator.
Osun was the rival of Oya and second wife of Sango.
If you worship Osun who is inferior to even Oya and Sango as the story goes, can't you see that you're so far below the food chain of gods?
I know how hard it is to let go of culture, tradition and religion but until you let go, your bias and sentiments will enslave you.
I had to let go of religion, to find Jesus Christ.
If truly Osun is a goddess of joy, then she should lead you to Jesus Christ, the source of Joy.
And if IFA is a divinity of wisdom, He should also point you to Jesus Christ, the Wisdom of God.
God bless you.

MuttleyLaff:
Big up

It's a very good contribution
As a matter of fact, a classic example of what Kenneth4u205 hinted
is what appeared to Saul when he was with the witch of Endor, trying to make contact with a dead Samuel

Good observation.

vaxx:
ok. Thanks for your contribution. I am still awaiting answer to the names of masquerade in various Nigeria dialect ...

What exactly do you mean by that? Are you asking for "masquerade" in various dialects? In Yoruba, that would be "Egun", or "Egungun". Each community in Yoruba land would then have Eguns with various names. One I used to know is "Eefinori" (smoke on the head), because smoke came out of his head, of course. I'm sure it had a more traditional name than that, but that's what everyone called it.

HardMirror:
I am from osun state. I love osun worshippers. The deity is so interesting and the rites so full of childish innocence, yet with strong undertones of sexualism, it makes me just love the deity

Owala River in the Orolu Kingdom of Ifon Osun was dammed in the early 50s forming a huge lake around which the towns of Owode, Oba, and some others are situated. The Owala River flows into the River Osun. The people around drink, piss, poo and bath in the lake and likely along its flow, and Schistosomiasis now infests the water killing people and decimating communities around it. Below is a small section of the infested Owala as seen from the edge of my farm.

budaatum:

What exactly do you mean by that? Are you asking for "masquerade" in various dialects? In Yoruba, that would be "Egun", or "Egungun". Each community in Yoruba land would then have Eguns with various names. One I used to know is "Eefinori" (smoke on the head), because smoke came out of his head, of course. I'm sure it had a more traditional name than that, but that's what everyone called it.

That is deep, but let limit it to the various languages among Nigerians ethnic group. I have gotten some answer to that

vaxx:
That is deep, but let limit it to the various languages among Nigerians ethnic group. I have gotten some answer to that

Have you ever been to Nigeria?

budaatum:

Have you ever been to Nigeria?

oh very well, was born in oshogbo but brought up in jos before moving to Ghana and then end up here.

vaxx:
oh very well, was born in oshogbo but brought up in jos before moving to Ghana and then end up here.

I ask because you do sound not like one who has lived in communities where this is practised. How long were you in Osogbo, and at what age did you live there?

budaatum:

I ask because you do sound not like one who has lived in communities where this is practised. How long were you in Osogbo, and at what age did you live there?

i am from house where ifa and egungun is venerated. So i am more closer to the root.i know various names of egungun as far as oshogbo cultural system entails. You know names of egungun depends on each family names and influence but they are common general one.

vaxx:
You know names of egungun depends on each family names and influence but they are common general one.

That's why I wondered if it was those names you were asking for.

I used to live in Obanikoro, in Lagos, when it was a village and they used to hold a huge egungun festival there. The local kids who were my friends would put on their outfits, take on the guttural voice of the dead and go whipping people extorting money. I was like 11-14, small as well, so they'd think they could torment me, but I'd recognise them and call them by name and dare them to whip me and "I'd demask them", so they left this "child of the devil", as they called me, alone. I did not try it with the adults though!

I also encountered them in the Orolu Kingdom, but being experienced from Lagos, they too quickly got to know me, so. We do have them in distant sections of the family, but I can't recollect the names of the two I actually know. It is dying off though since most people in Orolu are now Muslims and Christians. Even the egungun goes to the mosque and church these days.

budaatum:

That's why I wondered if it was those names you were asking for.

I used to live in Obanikoro, in Lagos, when it was a village and they used to hold a huge egungun festival there. The local kids who were my friends would put on their outfits, take on the guttural voice of the dead and go whipping people extorting money. I was like 11-14, small as well, so they'd think they could torment me, but I'd recognise them and call them by name and dare them to whip me and "I'd demask them", so they left this "child of the devil", as they called me, alone. I did not try it with the adults though!

I also encountered them in the Orolu Kingdom, but being experienced from Lagos, they too quickly got to know me, so. We do have them in distant sections of the family, but I can't recollect the names of the two I actually know. It is dying off though since most people in Orolu are now Muslims and Christians. Even the egungun goes to the mosque and church these days.

LOL.....ISESE can't die off but we evolved and tbst is what is happening. The same people going to mosque and church are still the dame people you will still find in the shrine. There is nothing fanatic can't do about it.

With regards to the issue of whipping ,This is the part of the play that comes along with it, not the actual ritual. I actually don't embrace it.

vaxx:
LOL.....ISESE can't die off but we evolved and that is what is happening. The same people going to mosque and church are still the same people you will still find in the shrine. There is nothing fanatic can't do about it.

Oh indeed. When we worship Owala and Ogun, and at the Odun Ade Festivals, some Church and Mosque people do turn up, but participation on the whole has significantly reduced as more have embraced Islam and Christianity, and school, for that matter, which has been the main cause of decline, I'm afraid, as people who go to school are less likely to worship the traditional gods in the Kingdom. You're less likely to be employed too, if not schooled, and since farming, the main employment of the uneducated, is dwindling, you could see the disincentives to traditional worship. Most of the highly educated avoid it like the plague.

budaatum:

Oh indeed. When we worship Owala and Ogun, and at the Odun Ade Festivals, some Church and Mosque people do turn up, but participation on the whole has significantly reduced as more have embraced Islam and Christianity, and school, for that matter, which has been the main cause of decline, I'm afraid, as people who go to school are less likely to worship the traditional gods in the Kingdom. You're less likely to be employed too, if not schooled, and since farming, the main employment of the uneducated, is dwindling, you could see the disincentives to traditional worship. Most of the highly educated avoid it like the plague.

A people without their Ancient ancestors roots and culture is like a tree without it's roots. Both Christianity and islam invade ancient kemet ( Africa ) and rape black womb-man and murdered black men and mentally enslaved the children. Look at what is happening in northern Nigeria every day.

Sometime, i dont understand the kind of education my people are receiving. EDUCATION SHOULD LIBERATE YOU , NOT CAGED YOU. I begin to appreciate my culture as a result of western education

vaxx:

I begin to appreciate my culture as a result of western education.

How did western education help you begin to appreciate your culture?