OREGON CITY -- A Beavercreek couple who left their infant daughter's fate to God rather than seek medical treatment for a mass that grew over her left eye will face charges of first-degree criminal mistreatment.

The Wylands and their church reject medical care in favor of faith-healing -- anointing with oil, laying on of hands, prayer and fasting. The parents testified at a juvenile court hearing last week that they never considered getting medical attention for Alayna.

According to court documents, Rebecca Wyland anointed Alayna with oil each time she changed the girl's diaper and wiped away the yellow discharge that seeped daily from the baby's left eye.

http://www.oregonlive.com/oregon-city/index.ssf/2010/07/post_2.html

Fisrtly the parents DID exactly what was instructed and written in the bible

"Is anyone among you sick? [b]Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord. [/b]And the prayer of faith will save the sick, and the Lord will raise him up. And if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven" (James 5:14-15).


Obviously this verse is a sham because it failed, it has failed many and it will continue to fail. . . . .

Where are all the faith healers to come and show their magic talent and immediately heal this baby?. . . . .If christianity is true then christians are supposed to be magicians according to the bible. Who are those that are always busy shouting and talking about miracles and wonders, wil they pray for this baby and heal her?. . . .Or is faith healing a fraud as usual?

How sad, poor child.

@Mazaje,
This is really a sad one but it shouldn't be a means to ridicule Christians; the truth is this: 'God still heals' yeah I said it cos I know a lot of folks here would be "what!! is that coming from sirjohn"
Yes God heals but they have refused to accept that medical science is one of Gods way of bringing healing to man. whether a headache is cured by aspirin administration or by mind power or faith, the bottom line is that you eventually got rid off the headache.
I really do hope that child gets treated eventually, again I say "how sad"

Oregon City:

OREGON CITY
-- A Beavercreek couple who left their infant daughter's fate to God rather than seek medical treatment for a mass that grew over her left eye will face charges of first-degree criminal mistreatment.

The Wylands and their church reject medical care in favor of faith-healing -- anointing with oil, laying on of hands, prayer and fasting.

The parents testified at a juvenile court hearing last week that they never considered getting medical attention for Alayna.

According to court documents, Rebecca Wyland anointed Alayna with oil each time she changed the girl's diaper and wiped away the yellow discharge that seeped daily from the baby's left eye.

http://www.oregonlive.com/oregon-city/index.ssf/2010/07/post_2.html

Mazaje:


[img width=100 height=100]http://media.oregonlive.com/oregon_city_news/photo/alayna1jpg-7e5bb9ccc2d6b094_large.jpg[/img]

Firstly the parents DID exactly what was instructed and written in the bible

"Is anyone among you sick?
Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord.
And the prayer of faith will save the sick, and the Lord will raise him up. And if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven" (James 5:14-15).

Obviously this verse is a sham because it failed, it has failed many and it will continue to fail . . .

Where are all the faith healers to come and show their magic talent and immediately heal this baby? . . .

If christianity is true then christians are supposed to be magicians according to the bible.

Who are those that are always busy shouting and talking about miracles and wonders, will they pray for this baby and heal her? . . .

Or is faith healing a fraud as usual?

@Mazaje

"O ye, of little faith . . ."

There are several places in the Bible in which the above phrase is used

It is usually referencing instances where little faith or the lack of it prevents the move and demonstration of God's power (i.e healings or miracles)

This is not new.

Note the man in the below verses complaining to Jesus that "certain faith healers couldnt immediately heal his baby son"

Mark 17:15-16;18-20 KJV:


¹⁵Lord, have mercy on my son: for he is lunatick, and sore vexed: for ofttimes he falleth into the fire, and oft into the water.

¹⁶And I brought him to thy disciples, and they could not cure him.

¹⁸And Jesus rebuked the devil; and he departed out of him: and the child was cured from that very hour.

¹⁹Then came the disciples to Jesus apart, and said, Why could not we cast him out?

²⁰And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief:
for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed,
ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place;
and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.

The verse is not a sham and faith healing is not necessarily a fraud

It is still the onus of the parent to safeguard the well being of the kid by all means at their disposal

Availing of medical assistance that likely already has a cure for the illness is an option that shouldnt have been shied away from

^ this child is innocent and ignorant
Oh. I remember 'original sin'>>>

e36991:


@Mazaje

"O ye, of little faith . . ."

There are several places in the Bible in which the above phrase is used

It is usually referencing instances where little faith or the lack of it prevents the move and demonstration of God's power (i.e healings or miracles)

An example is the below

The verse is not a sham and faith healing is not necessarily a fraud

It is still the onus of the parent to safeguard the well being of the kid by all means at their disposal

Availing of medical assistance that likely already has a cure for the illness is an option that shouldnt have been shied away from

I am sorry to say but Faith healing remains a fraud,  The point is, the pure application of the methods as described in the bible, don't work. They only "work" in conjunction with modern medicine, whereas medicine works just effectively o its own without any anointing, hand laying on or praying.

The fact that you and many other modern Christians don't rely solely on bible technology is also telling. You know exactly how well it works fails.

This case illustrates the difference between BS and reality. . . . .If faith healing works Christians won't be going to hospitals since most of tem truly believe and have faith. . .I visited a friend the other day and I saw him watching Reinhard Bonnke on TV  telling people to come forward and get healed of their various diseases or what ever it is that is wrong or afflicting them, forgetting that he himself uses a medicated glasses due to eye defect. I wonder when he is going to lay hands on himself and heal himself of his poor vision problems since he obviously uses medicated glasses to aid his vision. . . .

Mazaje:


I am sorry to say but Faith healing remains a fraud . .

The fact that you and many other modern Christians don't rely solely on bible technology is also telling.

You know exactly how well it works fails.

This case illustrates the difference between BS and reality . . .

. . . Reinhard Bonnke on TV  telling people to come forward and get healed

. . . wonder when he is going to lay hands on himself and heal himself of his poor vision problems

since he obviously uses medicated glasses to aid his vision . . .

@Mazaje

No need to strikeout works

because sincerely we do know exactly how well faith healing works and how well/why it fails

Things happens . . . Dont be hasty painting others with the same brush used on loud-noise-making empty barrels

e36991:

@Mazaje

No need to strikeout works

because sincerely we do know exactly how well faith healing works and how well/why it fails

Things happens . . . Dont be hasty painting others with the same brush used on loud-noise-making empty barrels

OK, so why did it fail in this case?. . . . .

mazaje:


OK, so why did it fail in this case?. . . . .

@Mazaje

Why it failed you want to know.

Looks like you need to do a bit of catching up. How did you miss that question gettting addressed earlier

Never mind, here it is reloaded

e36991:


Note the man in the below verses complaining to Jesus that "certain faith healers couldnt immediately heal his baby son"

Mark 17:15-16;18-20 KJV:


¹⁵Lord, have mercy on my son: for he is lunatick, and sore vexed: for ofttimes he falleth into the fire, and oft into the water.

¹⁶And I brought him to thy disciples, and they could not cure him.

¹⁸And Jesus rebuked the devil; and he departed out of him: and the child was cured from that very hour.

¹⁹Then came the disciples to Jesus apart, and said, Why could not we cast him out?

²⁰And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief:
for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed,
ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place;
and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.

e36991:

@Mazaje

Why it failed you want to know.

Looks like you need to do a bit of catching up. How did you miss that question gettting addressed earlier

Never mind, here it is reloaded

Unbelief? Will the parents prefer to go to the church elders and use oil and prayers if they did not believe that such actions will cure their child?. . . .Do you truly believe that the parents will refuse their daughter whom I believe they love dearly, access to medical help and opt for the biblical alternative if they do not believe?. . . .

GOD don fall hand again, lol, lwkmd, lmao

Mazaje:


Unbelief?

Will the parents prefer to go to the church elders and use oil and prayers if they did not believe that such actions will cure their child? . . .

Do you truly believe that the parents will refuse their daughter whom I believe they love dearly access to medical help

and opt for the biblical alternative if they do not believe? . . .

@Mazaje

Aw c'mon now, you know better than this

Just as with the gentleman complaining to Jesus, the unbelief lies at the foot of the "faith healer" not the parents

e36991:

@Mazaje

Aw c'mon now, you know better than this

Just as with the gentleman complaining to Jesus, the unbelief lies at the foot of the "faith healer" not the parents

But in this case it was the parents together with the Church elders that both prayed for the child and the oil was applied by the mum, not the church elders. . . .

Mazaje:


But in this case it was the parents together with the Church elders that both prayed for the child and the oil was applied by the mum

not the church elders . . .

@Mazaje

The mum was applying oil with no power in it

Yup the mum; the parents were in the same predicament as the gentleman that complained to Jesus

only that when these particular faith healers wondered why they underperformed,

they were slagged off for letting the gentleman down with their unbelief or lack of enough faith

e36991:

@Mazaje

The mum was applying oil with no power in it

Yup the mum; the parents were in the same predicament as the gentleman that complained to Jesus

only that when these particular faith healers wondered why they underperformed,

they were slagged off for letting the gentleman down with their unbelief or lack of enough faith

I just find it hard to believe since neither you or me truly know if they have enough faith or not, but why pray when you don't have faith at all that your prayers will work?. . . .Most people pray for healing  because they truly believe in their prayers else, they won't bother to pray at all. . . .

does God still heal? Yes he does
so whats the problem? Our capacity to recieve is still heavily impaired.

God is not likely to send manna when the children of israel get to canaan land. Yes, once in a while, He might send a raven to feed Elijah or bless 5loaves and 2fishes. But it's once in a while. God has made man and given him dominion. Man is expected to exercise that dominion IN CONJUCTION WITH trust in God.
God is an effective manufacturer, and He expects His machine(man) to sort of autorun. Not always jumping to the rescue like one dubious mechanic i know. It takes Life to achieve the silk balance that i hinted earlier.

Image123:

God is not likely to send manna when the children of israel get to canaan land. Yes, once in a while, He might send a raven to feed Elijah or bless 5loaves and 2fishes. But it's once in a while. God has made man and given him dominion. Man is expected to exercise that dominion IN CONJUCTION WITH trust in God.
God is an effective manufacturer, and He expects His machine(man) to sort of autorun. Not always jumping to the rescue like one dubious mechanic i know. It takes Life to achieve the silk balance that i hinted earlier.

Where in the bible does it say that God acts once in a while?. . . .

Mazaje:


I just find it hard to believe since neither you or me truly know if they have enough faith or not,

but why pray when you don't have faith at all that your prayers will work? . . .

Most people pray for healing  because they truly believe in their prayers else they won't bother to pray at all . . .

@Mazaje

The proof or taste of the pudding is in the eating

When there are no results, that's when it dawns that maybe one has bitten more than one can chew

Taking cue from weightlifters, they start with lighter weights and more reps to build up faith strength before notching up

I've not said that God acts once in a while. Being efficient is not 'acting once in a while' like you put it. This doesn't exactly capture it, but it's like a Parent and child relationship. There's a time when the parent do almost everything for the child, feeding, clothing, movement etc. As time progresses, the child is to be made more responsible. Not necessarily because the parent are tired or can't afford it, but because the child needs to be a man now. The relationship is still there, communication, etc. That's the way God has dealt with mankind.

Image123:

I've not said that God acts once in a while. Being efficient is not 'acting once in a while' like you put it. This doesn't exactly capture it, but it's like a Parent and child relationship. There's a time when the parent do almost everything for the child, feeding, clothing, movement etc. As time progresses, the child is to be made more responsible. Not necessarily because the parent are tired or can't afford it, but because the child needs to be a man now. The relationship is still there, communication, etc. That's the way God has dealt with mankind.

If a child is sick and ask his parents for help I believe that they will always help the child regardless of his/her age, so what exactly are you saying? That your God refused to helped them even though he could because he wanted them to grow up?. . . .Is that what you are saying?. . . .

If a child is sick, he's not always going to call his parent, especially when he's grown. If he needs to inform his parent, then he'll be helped in a sensible way. A 25year old graduate shouldn't be crying for pain in front of his parent when he's working and even has a company sponsored hospital available. What i'm saying is He can easily help himself.

^^

How does this add up to the fact that the parents of the child prayed to God for healing just as described in the bible which you love tagging as the human manual for living, but it failed as usual?. . . . . .

^
Good question. How it adds up is that we live in an age that is very much developed, and in which we can easily take care of ourselves. Like as been said above, medical science can easily take care of the child and is very accessible to them, there's no sin or crime in them making use of it. It becomes kinda redundant and irresponsible to go and meet God for what He's already given.
Christians accept that God has given humans brains, wisdom, dominion and permission. God expects that the take advantage of it AND maintain the balance of trusting Him.

The Bible doesn't forbid pure medical care, and faith without works is dead. What the Bible forbids is occult practices and help of evil origin. God is also against pride, or total unreliance in Him(God).
Even when God rained manna, His children still had to go out and get it, and then prepare it. And when they got to canaan, their farmers believed God for a bountiful harvest. But they still had to sow and then reap, even while they believed it was God's provision. God's provision is not to make us lazy or helpless, and His miracles are to glorify His name, not to save us hospital bills or make us healed stars on the pages of magazines.

Image123:

^
Good question. How it adds up is that we live in an age that is very much developed, and in which we can easily take care of ourselves. Like as been said above, medical science can easily take care of the child and is very accessible to them, there's no sin or crime in them making use of it. It becomes kinda redundant and irresponsible to go and meet God for what He's already given.
Christians accept that God has given humans brains, wisdom, dominion and permission. God expects that the take advantage of it AND maintain the balance of trusting Him.

Hmmmmm, I thought you guys say that the words of your God(bible) is for all time and all generations, some of you go as far as saying that it is fresher than tomorrows new papers, so how then did you jump to we live in a much developed world? Does the word of your God only apply to the underdeveloped world? If yes then why do you keep calling it the human manual?. . . . . .Here is a case where bible technology is put to the test. It fails. . . , You might as well burn a young bull on the altar for Yahweh for all the good it will do. . , , Let's name these practices for what they are, they are dangerous, ancient, superstitious nonsense. . . . . .Why then is it that when humans use the so called God given brains, wisdom and permission to do and find out about stuffs(science) people like you then say it is against God's will?

Image123:

The Bible doesn't forbid pure medical care, and faith without works is dead. What the Bible forbids is occult practices and help of evil origin. God is also against pride, or total unreliance in Him(God).
Even when God rained manna, His children still had to go out and get it, and then prepare it. And when they got to canaan, their farmers believed God for a bountiful harvest. But they still had to sow and then reap, even while they believed it was God's provision. God's provision is not to make us lazy or helpless, and His miracles are to glorify His name, not to save us hospital bills or make us healed stars on the pages of magazines.

The highlighted part is just one of the many contradictory teachings of the bible, there are many places in the bible where it is written that Jesus himself said all you need is faith, Jesus did not talk about works when expecting a miracle or healing at all, you can quote any part of the bible where Jesus talks about work when expecting a healing miracle. . . .What I know is that given the choice between trusting biblical methods, or trusting modern medicine you will trust modern medicine. Right?

e36991:

@Mazaje

The proof or taste of the pudding is in the eating

When there are no results, that's when it dawns that maybe one has bitten more than one can chew

Taking cue from weightlifters, they start with lighter weights and more reps to build up faith strength before notching up

Isn't it funny that every time a Christian messes up, then they are all the sudden not a Christian anymore or they don't believe enough as you have tried to ex[lain here. What's more, every time we catch religious bullshit in the act(wich is always the case when it comes to faith healing) all a sudden we don't know everything everyone believes and therefore we can't blanket all religious practice the same. . . .How convenient. . . . . .

As a child is involved, they should have sought medical help alongside prayer, seeing as they have a responsibilty to the state to care for that child. Miracles happen where human efforts fail.

I recently had a conversation with an elderly couple about why the husband's Multiple Sclerosis still remained in their lives despite years of prayers. The husband said he had peace of God despite his condition and that this condition has actually created many opportunities to share the word of God with people who would not ordinarily speak with him. Non-xtians show kindness and compassion because of his disability.

We should not pray blindly, instead we should always pray 'according to God's will', in a way 'praying about it before you pray about it'.

seyibrown:


As a child is involved, they should have sought medical help alongside prayer, seeing as they have a responsibilty to the state to care for that child.

Miracles happen where human efforts fail.

I recently had a conversation with an elderly couple about why the husband's Multiple Sclerosis still remained in their lives despite years of prayers. The husband said he had peace of God despite his condition and that this condition has actually created many opportunities to share the word of God with people who would not ordinarily speak with him. Non-xtians show kindness and compassion because of his disability.

We should not pray blindly, instead we should always pray 'according to God's will', in a way 'praying about it before you pray about it'.

@seyibrown

Chop knuckle

I don't need God should need an agent with plenty faith to heal anyone and especially a little freaking kid. Who/What do you think God should care about the most? The kid? Or His policy of not helping when there is a deficit of faith? And why are modern Christians so caught up with faith healing and miracles and financial break through? Isn't heaven enough? Help humanity and stop with the ME ME ME ME thing. I see people waving their hands in church (on TV) with their eyes closed as if they are looking for MTN signal and I go: You don't even need a pastor you deceive you. You're doing a pretty darn good job yourself.

how then did you jump to we live in a much developed world? Does the word of your God only apply to the underdeveloped world?

Hey, you're drifting here friend. Come back, recall my 'not exactly capturing' analogy of a parent/child relationship? Keep that in mind. What i'm saying is God is the parent in this analogy, mankind is the child. And the child grew up, mankind has made progress, that's the Maker's plan. When he was younger, he was next to helpless, but as he's grown, he can help himself some extent. Recall the silk balance pls.

I'll say it again this way. If someone had a broken leg or malaria, say during the time of moses, there was little medicine had to offer him compared to now. It'll be most appropriate if he cried to God without doing nothing. He didn't even know what to do btw. If today, someone has a broken leg or malaria, it's very much christian okay if the person prays about it, AS WELL AS get treatment(perhaps bandage, POP, pills). The treatment doesn't hinder his healing but aids it.