₦airaland Forum

Enigma:
This fact remains, however: God said His people could spend tithe money on wine OR strong drink.

Again: Wine OR strong drink!

Does it mean that those now saying a Christian should never consume alcohol know better than God?

Thanks Enigma, but here is my answer:

(a) Using Deut. 14:22-26 as the champion verse for spending tithe money on wine OR strong drink misses the point. If anyone wants to spend his/her tithe money of either of those (or anything else on the list in those verses) - it's entirely up to them: God will let them know by experience what He feels about that.

(b) remember that there's something far greater than spending tithe money on wine OR strong drink (or anything else), and that lesson is found in verse 23 - "that thou mayest learn to fear the LORD thy God always." This is why I've urged earlier that whatever anyone does in this matter of tithing, one should not miss the underlying factor - to learn to walk in the fear of God.

Walking in the fear of God is a lesson that only wise people can grasp - it is a test of faith and commitment
to God. Indeed, God Himself asked them to make a choice in Deut. 14:26 - notice that He did not
command them. From the references on the fear of God, one can understand that choices are to be made,
for not everyone understands this -

Prov. 1:7 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction.

Prov. 2:5 Then shalt thou[b] understand[/b] the fear of the LORD, and find the knowledge of God.

Prov. 9:10 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: and the knowledge of the holy is understanding.

Prov. 15:33 - The fear of the LORD is the instruction of wisdom; and before honour is humility.

It was as if God was laying it before them - it was a matter of choice, rather than of commandment. Could you tell me how those who got drunk on strong drink (or even wine) exhibited the fear of God? The Bible clearly shows that this matter of walking in the fear of God is a choice - you choose to walk in godliness [Prov. 1:29 - For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the LORD].

Now, let's rehearse an example of making a wise choice between drinking wine and walking in the fear of God in Jeremiah 35.

# God instructed the prophet Jeremiah to bring the house (family) of the Rechabites to the house of the LORD and
give them wine to drink (verse 1-2)

# Jeremiah obeys and sets pots of wine before the Rechabites in a chamber of a man of God (Igdaliah), and then he
declares: "Drink ye wine." (verse 3-5)

# The Rechabites objected and declined: "We will drink no wine", even though it was the word of the LORD that the
prophet was giving them to do so; and they clearly explained why - it was because their father Jonadab had made
a choice long ago not to drink wine, and passed this choice down to his family (verse 5-11).

What was the LORD's answer to that?

# God greatly honoured the Rechabites with a time enduring blessing - their family will have a posterity to stand
before God for ever (that is, to serve Him - verse 18-19).

Now, God did not command them to spend tithe money on wine and strong drink in Deut. 14:26 - it was a choice they could make. The wise will choose not to drink; the undiscerning will rush for the booze. No shakings - at the end of days, He will prove His wisdom to those who choose to walk in the fear of the LORD always. That's why I take the view that it's entirely up to the individual - you want wine or booze, check this:

wine - yes, permissible (not commanded nor condemned - use at your own discretion)

strong drink - not encouraged (again, it's your choice to ask if this will help promote your walk with God).

The general tone of Scripture is this: God sets things before you and ask you to make a choice. The outcome of your choice shows where your heart is - and the result will be manisfested from God Himself. Wise people will use wine at their discretion; but Spirit-filled believers seek something greater to quench the inner thirst of their souls - being filled with the Spirit (Eph. 5:18).

Phew! Tasking, and I enjoyed your inputs. . . hope this helps again.

God bless.

Amen, brother!

That is part of the issue. The problem is that for the mere mention of 'tithes' (besides other types of giving), people feel that some of us have qualified as ___!

Tithe is one thing - and giving is no less important, as it is written:

                "I have shewed you all things, how that so labouring ye ought to support the weak, and to remember the
                  words of the Lord Jesus, how he said, It is more blessed to give than to receive." -  Acts 20:35

God bless.

nferyn:
4get_me,

If you think that science is intended to answer questions about ultimate purpose, you'll have to wait very long, as it's not going to happen. Science only answers what and how questions, not why questions.

If you're looking for mechanisms on how life started, we're reasonably close to finding that out, but purpose is non-exisent as far as science is concerned.
The creation stroy, as portrayed in Genesis, contradicts so many established scientific knowledge that anyone believing in it's literal truth either is ignorant or deliberately ignores 90% of our scientific knowledge.

nferyn, I'm surprised that you're admitting in this thread that science does have limitations. I don't have to wait for a very long time to find purpose in life - I already have in Christ, and it makes sense. Call it bias, call it blind faith, a 'myth' perhaps if you please, or write it off with any other clever skeptic axiom. The bottom line is you just admitted, that -

"Science only answers what and how questions, not why questions"

I knew miles ahead that it would come to this. But believe me, even science is asking questions of why as much as they're asking about what, how, when, where, which. And let me offer you that it is that question you're ignoring that is informing the noise you're making here about "creationist bias." Evolution does not offer man the answer as to the why of existence. And that is the reason you will wait for a very long time indeed if you're trying to use science to explain the why of non-scientific phenomena outside Christianity.

Dear Enigma,

If you felt my fingers pointing at you, no vex. Allow me to say that you're contradicting yourself.

Enigma:
You should concentrate on debating issues rather than pointing fingers. As it is you made so many assumptions: "have not experienced the power etc of tithing", "haven't taken time to study verses carefully", "don't know what goes on in many tithing churches". You could not be more wrong on all of those!!!

I sure have concentrated on debating issues - read my previous posts and see for yourself. If you knew what has been going on in my local church as I outlined earlier, would it not show you knew nothing about us before you assumed that every church you've been to practises the same thing as you levelled against them?

Enigma:
It is precisely because I have been there n done that and have discovered the truth of what the Bible says on this issue that I maintain the stand that I do ---- i.e. that the modern teaching of "tithing" is a lie (whether deliberate or indeliberate).

If "modern teaching of tithing" (whatever that means to you) is a lie, there are two questions you sould please explain to me:

(a) if tithing per se is a "lie", why does the "lie" bless my life and finances?

(b) if tithing is a "lie", does that suppose I'm going straight to hell for tithing? [remember all "liars" shall
have their part in the lake of fire - Rev. 21:8]

Enigma:
Deal with the passage: why do "tithers" not give the tithes to or share with widows, orphans, strangers or spend the money on whatever their hearts desire as directed in Deut. 14:22 ff. BTW you will also find similar directions in Leviticus among other places. Are those portions of the Bible irrelevant?

I've dealt with that earlier - did you not notice, or you simply ignored it for needless repetition? Second, dear friend, did you read my previous posts at all - because I didn't seem to have used Deut. 14:26 as the sole verse on tithing, did I?

My dear friend belloti,

I'm not so sure we've been trading arguments here all along. But if it seemed so, I acquiesce that there should be no need for that.

Again, I'm not so sure how to interprete the verses you quoted. However, in just the same manner as one could not define a religious faith by attending a few functions here and there, so it would be unfair for anyone to define Christianity by ignoring the Bible, especially the New testament. Perhaps you already have perused the NT; but if otherwise, just take a look at Jesus' teaching on peace and tolerance in the NT Gospels (the Injil) - this for a start:

Matt. 5:44 - "But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you,
and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you."

It is not the spirit and drive of true Christians to be violent or anything they have been accused of. People these days tend to view political matters religiously; so then, in the minds of many people, the middle-East crises are religiously interpreted as a war between Islam and Christianity. Sad, isn't it?

Questions will always be asked, whatever we do as Christians or Muslims. On all fronts, I decry the use of religion or any other worldview (non-religious and political) as platforms for the sort of unrests we are experiencing today. This does not call for pointing accusing fingers at one another - and that is the bane of our society today, because if there's a social malady, then people very often want to blame it on this or that religion.

Regards.

TV01, I'll pop out briefly and then back to answer your post.

Thing is that I Samuel 8 does not indicate a curse - don't stretch it to that. And for theocracy, what does it mean if not that God is the King of such a government - the Government of God's people by God Himself? Just check the meaning of the terms.

I think the simple thing to do is just take it as the Bible reads - God sent a solemn protest to the Israelites through Samuel; but He did not curse them. If He did, please give me the verse.

Regards.

@Enigma,

You're right about Jacob's vows; I haven't read it anywhere that he fulfilled his vows; but I don't necessarily take the view that he might not have done so - I'm still searching (I make mistakes because I'm human like everyone else).

However, on tithing, you know where your complaints are coming from? Let me share -

(1) you probably have not experienced the power and favour that follow tithing

(2) you haven't taken the time to study those verses carefully

(3) you really don't know what goes on in many tithing churches.

In reverse order - my local church does not enforce tithing; it's up to each member to tithe and let God prove Himself. . . and we have seen Him done so many times. Second, our leaders have a sense of financial accountability and integrity. Third, they are the least funded - and more than anything else, tithe money is used in caring for the less privileged in and outside our local church:

         (i) widows (not many of them in our local church),
        (ii) less privileged - children who cannot afford school fees, etc.
       (iii) families who are not able to sustain themselves daily;
       (iv) then orphans, poor folks,
        (v) and also contributing financially to other churches for evangelism and prison outreaches

Take time to study those verses on tithing - God did not command that every tithe be spent on strong drink. "Whatever you soul lusteth after" is not a command. Do what you want to do - suck the bottle of a strong drink if that's what your soul lusteth after; but try not strenuosly seek to enforce it on others. Deut. 14:26 does not command that you spend your tithe money on booze; check it out again.

Christians don't follow the dictates of their souls - rather, they walk in the Spirit (Gal. 5:16). A soulish man is a carnal or natural man; and such a man does not receive the things of the Spirit (Rom. 8:7 & I Cor. 2:4).

Hello TV01,

I've had a few moments off work so I could spend time online. God's "elect/chosen/set apart ones" are called Christians - and all who believe in Christ as Lord and Saviour constitute the Church in God's eyes. There may be many expressions of Christianity (denominations, if you please); but nowhere will you find a curse placed on the Church as you have done.

The Church may not be perfect in her experiences, but does that merit a curse? Do you know what you're talking about? Even when you come to Rev. 2 & 3, you'll not find any church there cursed inspite of the grievious evils that Christ protested against among them. Try not reading God's word with a fundamentalist spectacles (no, I'm not being sly or bitter).

In 1 Samuel 8, Israel rejected a theocratic government in favour of a democracy; but what follows was not a curse or the consequences of a curse. There are so many examples in Scripture showing how God shows His displeasure towards His people for their rebellion; but what you call a curse is never called that in God's word. God chastices His people; but a curse is a very different thing, unless you deliberately want to read it into God's word where it does not appear.

Communion and Love Feast - wow! I thought you'd disagree. Not so many people see the difference. Great.

If I do have the time I might post something about economies of Law and Grace - don't know how my schedules turn out in the next few days.

Blessings.

@jagunlabi, excuse me, but that was predictably a lazy come back - I suspected you would have nothing more to say.

I don't believe the Bible blindly as far as its truths and power have been proven in my life again and again. If nothing has happened in my life to prove what I read therein, then you'd have a point to accuse believers of believing blindly. What you cannot explain is very easily and conveniently called "myth"; and yet, with all the hoo-ha, the basic question of how we got here has not been answered.

@Bisiriyu,
you made good sense. It's true - when someone has experienced the power and favour that follows tithing, he/she would not be so opposed to the practice.

@Hnd-holder,
Your article is well appreciated - both from a historical point of view and an ecclesiastico-political one. However, you might have been giving us these from a referenced document (an encyclopedia, perhaps?). A few observations:

Hnd-holder:
. . . so in Genesis 28, Jacob is recorded as giving a tithe of all his possessions to the Lord.

(1) In Gen. 28, Jacob made a vow of tithing (verse 22), but I don't read anywhere else that he fulfilled his vow. Yet, I don't disavow that he most probably might have done so; it's just that the chapter only records his vow, not the fulfillment.

(2) Tithing predated the Mosaic law - and I'm glad that you pointed that out in your piece. This perhaps helps me understand that Abraham was not under the Law; and if he was spoken of as "Abraham; who is the father of us all" (Rom. 4:16), I don't think there's reason to believe that tithing is an evil practice for Christians today. Abraham gave tithes even before the Mosaic Law was enacted.

(3) Tithes and taxes are not to be mixed up. Taxes paid today to civil governments are recognized in the NT as a legitimate practice for Christians (Rom. 13:6-7); but they are not the same thing as tithes spoken of in the Bible, especially as the latter is often in regards to worship.

(4) Then, of course, tithing does not serve the purpose of the pastor's ego-expenses as is commonly supposed by many and as sadly displayed by some unwise pastors in lavish spending. The widows and less privileged come under the use of tithes.

Thank you for taking the effort to share these very inspiring reads. Blessings.

sergio:
guys like i said before, God is a man not a male, u all are males, susceptible to sin and temptation, are ya all fellin me on this?

How do you differentiate between 'man' and 'male'?

  (a) The animals have 'males' among them; but there is no 'man' among the lot of animals.

  (b) Man and animals have 'flesh' - and both have 'males' among them.

  (c) Animals share the 'male' and 'flesh' features of human beings; but the former (animals) were not created in God's image.

From these three, would it be reasonable to -

  (a) compare God to 'man' because He is not  a 'male' (as human beings and animals have 'males' among them)?

  (b) compare God to 'man' who has 'flesh' like animals and yet God is a Spirit?

Let me reference the 'male' and 'man' verses between human beings and animals:

     # Animals and human beings have male and females among them -

             Gen. 7:2 - "Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female:
                               and of beasts that are not clean by two, the male and his female."

             Gen. 5:2 - "Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day
                               when they were created.

      # Animals and human beings have flesh among them -

             Gen. 6:19 - "And of every living thing of all flesh, two of every sort shalt thou bring into the ark,
                                to keep them alive with thee; they shall be male and female."

             Gen. 6:3  -  "And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh:
                                 yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years."


Is God A Man?

If God is a Man, could someone please explain this scripture for me -

            Num. 23:19 - "God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said,
                                  and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?"

            Job 33:12  -  "Behold, in this thou art not just: I will answer thee, that God is greater than man."

We speak of God as 'He' and use the masculine pronoun 'His' - that in itself does not make God a Man. You cannot compare God to anything He has created - for He is immeasurably greater and cannot be compared with anything in the entire universe -

            Isa. 40:17-18 - "All nations before him are as nothing; and they are counted to him less than nothing, and vanity.
                                  To whom then will ye liken God? or what likeness will ye compare unto him?

            Isa. 46:5 -  "To whom will ye liken me, and make me equal, and compare me, that we may be like?"

jagunlabi don come again with half-reads.

Please tell me about this theory of yours that there were already human beings dwelling on earth before Adam and Eve.

flip

lip

thrall

ship

drip

Script

laid back

rough

Well, not our falut - some of us are not that edcucated!

10. Don’t let worry kill you off – let the church help!

Golf carefully!   

@kimba,

You'd be wrong in your inference that because Man is born without God's Spirit in him means we are born pure-atheists. No at all. Everyman without Christ today is described as "dead in sin" - Eph.2:1,5. Even David in Psa.51 didn't suppose he was born with a measure of the Holy Spirit in him. There was a specific day when the Spirit of God came upon David (I Sam. 16:13), and this was not previously his experience. What we have at birth is our human spirit; that is why at regeneration God's Spirit comes into the believer's heart and resides in him/her as His temple. I do not find it anywhere stated directly or indirectly that man is born with a measure of God's Spirit.

What you're describing in your first paragraph just above is not the Holy Spirit - at best, it's man's conscience, which can be good or evil. Maybe I'm missing the points, and a few verses to establish your points will be of help.

Okay, if you think all is well with the shorthand spellings and careless punctuations we do these days, wait until you hear this. Johnny met this babe and after a dinner decided to write her a love note. He asked help from his linguistic friend, who promptly sent him the following draft:
_____________________

My Dear Pat,

The dinner we shared the other night – it was absolutely lovely! Not in my wildest dreams could I ever imagine
anyone as perfect as you are. Could you – even if only for a moment – think of our being together forever?
What a cruel joke to have you come into my life only to leave again; it would be heaven denied. The possibility of
seeing you again makes me giddy with joy. I face the time we are apart with great sadness.

John.

P.S.: I would like to tell you that I love you. I can’t stop thinking that you are one of the prettiest women on earth.
_____________________


Okay, Johnny got down to business and copied the draft in his own handwriting. The finished product? See for yourself:

_____________________

My Dear

Pat the dinner we shared the other night. It was absolutely lovely – not! In my wildest dreams,
could I ever imagine anyone? As perfect as you are, could you – if only for a moment – think?
Of our being together forever: what a cruel joke! To have you come into my life only to leave again: it would be heaven!
Denied the possibility of seeing you again makes me giddy. With joy I face the time we are apart.

With great ‘sadness,’

John

P.S.: I would like to tell you that I love you. I can’t. Stop thinking that you are one of the prettiest women on earth.

____________________

What happened next? Your guess!

I laughed till my sides ached when I read the original piece of the second part of the jokes in Richard Lederer's books. That guy is crazy. . . and brilliant. He's the author of Crazy English and Anguished English - highly recommended for those who want to learn the English language bored-free (or, is that board free?) 

More from his pages:

The Verbally Insane

       We are told that blackberries are green and then red before they are ripe.
       Even if blackberries were really black and blueberries really blue, what are
       strawberries, cranberries, elderberries, huckleberries, raspberries, boysenberries,
       and gooseberries supposed to look like?

From his Anguished English:

{Lederer collected a handful of bloopers commonly cited in magazines, bulletins, billboards and notices. You'll be surprised how people misspell. . . and well, give you the wrong message unintentionally! Sample the Wholly Holy Bloopers on pages 33-34 of his Anguished English:}

    1.  For those who have children and don’t know it, we have a nursery downstairs.
         (Is it possible that some people will have children and yet not know they do?)

    2.  This being Easter Sunday, we will ask Mrs. White to come forward and lay an egg on the altar.

    3.  Thursday at 5pm there will be a meeting of the Little Mothers Club. All wishing to become little
         mothers will please meet with the minister in the study.

    4.  Next Sunday Mrs. Vinson will be soloist for the morning service. The pastor will then speak on
         “It’s a Terrible Experience.”

    5.  Tuesday at 5pm there will be an ice cream social. All ladies giving milk, please come early.

    6.  The service will close with “Little Drops of Water.” One of the men will start quietly, and the rest
         of the congregation will join in.

    7.  Remember in prayer the many who are sick of our church and community.

    8.  Smile at someone who is hard to love. Say “hell” to someone who doesn’t care much about you.

    9.  A song fest was hell at the Methodist church Wednesday. (supposed to read “held”).

  10.  Don’t let worry kill you off – let the church help!

  11.  Dog for sale: eats anything and is fond of children.

  12.  Mrs. Jones has not had any clothes for a year and has been visited regularly by the clergy.

  13.  Our paper carried the notice last week that Mr. Oscar Hoffnagle is a defective on the police force.
         This is a typographic error. Mr. Hoffnagle is, of course, a detective on the police farce.

Want more? Get the book - your life will never be the same again.     

@kimba,
Simple enough. But I'm still wondering about it - because I don't see it taught that way in the Word. A person is not given the gift while he/she is not yet born again. Do you have any verses to show that everyone has the Holy Spirit even before they are born again?

Great, kimba. But 'conviction', 'leading' and the 'in-dwelling' of the Holy Spirit are not the same. The Bible shows that the distinct mark of a believer is that he/she has the Holy Spirit dwelling in him/her -

Rom. 8:9[/color] - "But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now [color=#770077]if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his."

1 Cor. 3:16 - "Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?"

This cannot be said about someone who is not born again - who hasn't received Christ as Lord and Saviour. God's Word even says of some people that they don't have the Spirit of God in them - Jude 19 - "These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit."

Everyman can be convicted by the Spirit of God - but He does not dwell in every person unless such a person has first received Christ as Lord and Saviour. Am I missing something?

@ Enigma,

I'm sorry if you got me wrong - study the passage carefully yourself.

Enigma:
God said His people could spend "tithe money" on strong drink.

That's what I meant by "permissive" - He did not "command" them to buy strong drink, so please don't confuse the two. How is "could spend" different from "permissible"?

Enigma:
Finally, it is illogical to say that the permission to drink strong wine was only for Jews/Israelites (and thus does not apply to Christians today) while the requirement of "tithing" was not only for Israelites/Jews but still applicable to Christians today ---- when both are n the same verse/passage! On what basis is that verse/passage (i.e. Deut. 14:22-29) bing split in that way?

I nowhere stated that "the permission to drink strong wine was only for the Jews/Israelites (and thus does not apply to Christians today)." I've always maintained that:

    "wine - permissible" (without making a distinction between Jews/Israelites and Christians today - did I?).

Second, you did not read me using Deut. 14:26 as the verse for tithing, did you? So, I'm afraid you got my piece all mixed up - I didn't split it up as you suppose.

I know that a Nazarite is different from a Nazarene. I'm only sorry that you might have read me tying the two together from Num. 6:3 & 20. No, my friend; not at all. My point is that some people think Jesus might have broken the vow of a Nazarite; and in that reference, I asked, "Does this mean that He broke the law of the Nazarene [that should have been "Nazarite"], or that He even got drunk?" There are two things I'd like you to see there:

         (a) that Jesus was called a Nazarene

         (b) Jesus was falsely accused

By these two, I wanted to share that we should not misconstrue the issues: the accusations levelled against Christ in Luke 7:34 do not hold true in just the same manner that some wonder that Jesus' being called a Nazarene means that He broke the law of the Nazarite. No, he did not.

I'm open to comments if you still read me wrong so I could clear the air. Read my earlier posts discussing Deut. 14:26 and see if I indeed split it as you suppose.

Blessings.

kimba:
Every hyman being(old/young)has a measure of the Holy Spirit.

Em. . . I don't know if I can agree with that. God's Spirit is not given even in the slightest measure to those who are not born again. Only born again believers have the Holy Spirit dwelling in them.

@kimba,
It's true - He guides in more than one ways.

I had a similar experience. Maths again! Walked into the class totally unprepared, even though I knew at least no less than two weeks before then (I was busy playing Samson and Delilah with g/friend). I almost wept as I read through the questions - 9 questions to answer any 5 of your choice, and I knew none! Worst of all, I was in front row, so no cheating or even stretching my neck. Confused, and heart racing, I quietly confessed my sins and stubborness, then asked God what next to do. I didn't hear a voice, but I was absolutely certain in my heart He wanted me to walk out and carry it over. I didn't hesitate - I submitted my script and walked out. But thank God I did, even though many thought I was mentally unbalanced at the time.

Next semester, I was focused. The lecturer had intimidated us with some shakara that the most brilliant student in his class should not hope for anything more than a 'C' - and the rest of us could measure ourselves by that! No wahala: me, I never had the brains for figures before. I bowed, prayed and turned the question paper. Jesus! - I knew all 9 questions that I answered 6 and had to cancell 1 to make up my 5! Results? I came through with a clean 'A' - and the most brilliant student himself got an 'A' (he was a strong Christian as well).

Who say God no be God?  

Softee:

hot-angel link=topic=11477.msg317812#msg317812 date=1146090652:
I need to feel this mehn. Dearzi, what can i do to feel it?

your testimonies are awesome. I mean my consience talks to me, is that the holy spirit? I also hear a voice within me, when im doing wrong, i count it as concience, but from what you're saying it seems it the holy spirit.

I would say this is the holy spirit.

Nope. Conscience is different from the Holy Spirit. He may sometimes speak to you thru ur conscience, but He's way bigger than a man's conscience. Even the unregenerate have a conscience, and whether we know it or not, our consciences are primarily God's 'alarm clock' (so to speak) to call our attention in decisions between good and evil.

God speaks to our hearts as well; but the most powerful way I know of that God speaks to us is in our spirit.

<<<rolls on d floor>>> They'll find it sooner than later.