₦airaland Forum

@nferyn,

nferyn:
Anthropocentric feeble mindedness disguised as profound reasoning. You're looking for holes in scientific explantions where you can fit your god in.

To a surficial reader, it would look like you had "profound reasoning" - the problem, however, is that yours is as "disguised" as anyone else's that you accuse in just the same manner.

nferyn:
1. Your holes (what came before time, aka the first cause) are only necessary in your limited understanding of realty. You may as well ask what's north of the north pole
2. Your (and my) linear, temporal perception of reality does not equal reality itself. The wiring of our brain and the senses we have help us to survive in our 'middle ' world. We cannot perceive how the subatomic world functions, nor can we truly understand the meaning of deep time and space, yet we continuously try to make reality fit our limited perceptive and cognitive framework.

Isn't it obvious in your admission here that you simply do not know what you are talking about? You admit, at least, that your "linear, temporal perception of reality does not equal reality itself", and I'm grateful to read that. And yet, in being accusative of others about the "God of the Gaps", you have actually manufactured your own "Gaps" in your double admission that "we" (which would include you) "continuously try to make reality fit our limited perceptive and cognitive framework." Already, nferyn, following this disguised and overblown idea of yours is simply falsifying the specific nature of your premise - and you have cleverly arrived at "absolutely nothing" in just the same way that you only see about the reasoning of others!

@bari_kade,

May God continue to increase His blessings upon you for your efforts on this very interesting subject. Like lafile, I have learnt so very much from your inputs and will like to copy and save as reference for later study. Looking forward to your sequel.

For those accusing the Bible of having been corrupted, I have a few questions:

John 1:1 - "In the beiginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God"
Psalm 2:12 - "Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him"
Isaiah 9:6 - "For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace."

#1. what did the original Bible say in John 1:1, Psalm 2:12, and Isaiah 9:6 before Muhammad was born?

#2. who exactly "corrupted" the verses in John 1:1, Psalm 2:12, and Isaiah 9:6 according to Muhammad's accusation?

#3. In what year exactly were John 1:1, Psalm 2:12, and Isaiah 9:6 'corrupted' as accused by Muhammad against the Bible?

#4. What "Psalms" did Muhammad refer to when he stated in the Qur'an that Allah gave the Psalms unto David [Sura 4:163 - ". . and to David We gave the Psalms."]? What exactly did the Psalms say, and how many chapters were they?

#5. Why did Muhammad not mention Isaiah in the Qur'an as one of the prophets of God, even though the Jews recognized him as such, and Jesus quoted from the same Isaiah? See -

Matt. 13:14 - "And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive."

Acts 8:30 - "And Philip ran thither to him, and heard him read the prophet Esaias, and said, Understandest thou what thou readest?"

If Muslims have investigated Muhammad's accusations and found them untenable, would they be willing to admit that Muhammad was not telling the truth?

People arguing that Muslims and Christians worship the same God are simply not facing reality. Muhammad came denying categorically what Christ taught, and you guys are here arguing about Islam's denials only as a matter of different views.

Do one simply thing: take your convoluted views to the Mosques in Pakistan, Iran, Saudi Arabia and tell them that Jesus Christ is the Son of God - then come back and narrate your experience! Even Muslims who do not banter to the liberal opinions of this insane argument will tell you that Christians and Muslims do not worship the same God regardless of what anyone thinks!

People who call themselves Christians and still vend around this idea of "the same God" between both faiths are confirming the fact that they have neither studied the Bible, nor understood the implications of Christ's teaching, nor take Him seriously! For once, such people should simply wake up and read their Bibles.

ishmael:
Even in the new testament in the Bible, the gospels written by Mathew, Mark, Luke and John are not totally the same, but they are all saying the same thing; so is the Koran and the Bible, they all agree that there is ONE GOD.

James 2:19 - "Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble."

@bari_kade,

Well done with your erudite analysis and treatment of the sabbath subject. I especially like the way you carefully compare scripture with scripture between Mark 2:27 and Matt. 12:5 to show that the Lord Jesus was referring to the Law of Moses, and not to Genesis when He answered the Jews. I'm not surprised that if you ask the SDA where in Genesis God commanded Adam to keep/observe the Sabbath, they simply have no verse in the entire Bible for their argument!

Besides your cogent questions, here's something that you stated which has helped a better understanding of the issue:

bari_kade:
In the same vein, I fail to see where God expressly gave a commandment/law to Adam to keep/observe the Sabbath in Genesis. If He spoke of the seventh day in Genesis, it is understood that He had His eyes far into the future beyond Genesis when the full import of the Sabbath would be given to humanity in Christ. I believe this is why the Lord Jesus referred to Himself as 'Lord of the Sabbath' - the One who brings divine rest in fulfillment of what God intended in Genesis. "Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest" (Matt. 11:28 ).

@Bobbyaf,

If your arguments have any persuasions at all, why have you carefully dodged all the 14 cogent questions bari_kade offered you?

@belloti,

Atheists, skeptics and non-muslims have access to hospitals as well as sustenance - is that the same thing as "Allah's" miraculous healing?

It's interesting how many people want to prove themselves to be greater than their calling. Reminds me of the popular Daniel of Ibadan who dared the lions and ended up as a snack in their mouth!

segoye2:
@ 4get_me,

Thanks for all your comments.

For record purpose, can you share the medical documents with us?

I am very prepared to share more than that; however, not in a public forum. This is not side-stepping the issue, but the documents have my name and former Nigerian address conspicuously printed on it; and for security purposes will not want to expose my family to danger from Muslims who are not happy with what I have posted about Islam on the Forum.

segoye2:
Just like 4get_me, witnessed a miracle in his life, and few days later he was able to heal more persons (though we had reference to only one yet).

Nope, just my nephew. However, I have joined in praying for a few other people and seen them healed; others did not get healed; but I have seen healings taking place in answer to prayers of others.

segoye2:
Even your proofs can make a positive impact in the readers bible knowledge.

I sure hope they do. In all, the glory be to God.

The Qur'an was written by men who were close companions of Muhammad. There were also deletions and abrogations of verses from it before the present document that Muslims have, which is only a political redaction of the third Caliph Uthman. After burning all the other extant copies, even Muslim scholars today still struggle to have a unified translation in English; and the many versions have a way of highlighting the "errors" of a previous translation.

. . . And for all of that, the Pope was right! Islam is exactly what the Pope said it is!

lafile:
what! Muhammad stole somebody elses wife!! 33:37 We gave her (Zaid’s wife) unto thee in marriage, so that (henceforth) there may be no sin for believers in respect of wives of their adopted sons”.And he had the nerve to say na God give am, Ashawo!!!

ROFL. . .@lafile

BlackMamba:
Good and convincing portrayal of the omnipotent powers of Allah.

I'm still wondering about the miracles of the Qur'anic "Allah" - how has the Muslim god miraculously healed the many sick and needy people in Islam?

We don't know everything about Him now, and we can know more by learning.

@segoye2,

Have you really experienced the power of God in such a way that you know it is beyond the ordinary? If one wakes up everyday and moves about, then everyone experiences that - even the atheist. But then, the Bible shows us that Jesus Christ spoke of miracles in a specific and special sense than one would ordinarily assume.

Miracle 1.
I have experienced miracles several times personally. Once when I was terminally ill with something doctors could not properly diagnose but believed to have been anywhere from typhoid to a dangerous infection, I was sent home as we had not enough money to sustain the medical bills for the length of time I was to spend in the hospital. Some of my friends even believed I had AIDS. I grew worse at home; but after praying all by myself, I was stunned to find my illness was gone before daybreak the next day! I still have my medical reports to prove that I was actually ill.

Miracle 2.
Soon after this incident, I prayed for a nephew who had been diagnosed with hemophilia (a blood disease). His condition had worsened as he grew older and doctors had given him no longer than age 9 to live. After my healing, I went over and prayed for him, believing he would be healed but thought it would be a gradual process. I can't tell you the amazement of the electrifying moment when he got up instantly healed! His medical records are still with his parents, and he's now in the USA - a fine healthy youth of 12 years old!

Miracle 3.
My present job was another miracle, I believe. I had jokingly applied for a visa to the USA without any serious preparation: not enough funds to buttress my application, least qualified for it; and to make matters worse, I stated the duration of my "visit" as 5 years (out of ignorance back then)! Well, I shared the gist with my sister - the mum of my nephew just described above. She wasn't amused with my nonchalance as I told her about my application. Rather, she said forthrightly that I should ask God for favour, for since the day that my nephew was healed, she believed absolutely nothing was impossible with Him.

I took her advice seriously, and 3 weeks later received a letter that summoned me to the American Embassy. To my surprise, the interview wasn't more than 5 mins; and another 10 minutes, walked out of the Embassy with a 2-year visa! My heart pounded so hard that I wept all the way home! Hoping that I would somehow be able to raise money for the airfare in about 6 to 8 months, I was surprised news got out and reached my pastor - who bought me the ticket and linked me up with the very IT company I had jokingly indicated in my application form!

Since then, I have travelled widely and visited 13 European countries, while making my home in the USA.

Miracle 4.
I was not formerly a tither because I previously believed that it was not for NT believers. After our pastor in the USA taught on it before he was called home in November 2005, I started tithing, and have seen my finances grow termendously. But here's the miracle: I returned to my home in the USA shortly before Christmas and with my wife pledged 3 things: (a) sow a specific seed to a ministry that sought to reach out to Muslims and poor Asians; (b) spend my annual leave during the Christmas week witnessing to my neighbourhood in Nigeria; and (c) sponsor a child for one full year for school and feeding.

When I returned to America after this mission, my wife asked me if I had specifically asked God for some blessing for these pledges. My reply was "No". She reminded me of an atheist neighbour for whom I had been praying and even asked God for his conversion during the pledges we made. I came home to find he had been converted and was fervently serving the Lord! Then two other things:

(1) I and my wife had been considering buying a house and moving to another State in the USA, where the IT company was headquartered. We changed our minds about it because we wanted to be closer to our church. Well, we had an offer for a bigger house just a mile awy from ours, and only had to pay 27% of the original cost for moving to another State!

(2) Just last week, I was stunned to receive a promotion in my office as Regional Manager for trans-Asian regional operations! Since I did not have matching IT qualification, my office offered to sponsor me through a Masters Degree in a relevant programme! Did I pray about it? No; but my wife had been fasting and praying for that very thing, and God brought it to pass!

Segoye2, miracles are real; and people can doubt it for any reason. But I had to share this to encourage readers that God can do great things for them - if they only believe!

Blessings.

Very interesting article. Thanks KDK!

The Church is unChristlike. What is happening is that we are in the endtimes for real, and these things will manifest themselves more and more until the Lord returns -

"This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away."
- II Tim. 3:1-5

"Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity."
- II Tim. 2:19

It just only goes to show once again that we're living in the end times -

For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
- Matthew 24:5

Amen. I believe the Bible says what it means and means what it says: Jesus the Logos is GOD! John 1:1.

Lol. . . just your whimper after you've been whipped on Calvary's cross? Your sobbing isn't working.

Bobbyaf:
Not only are you childish, but plain mischievous, and a hypocrite on top of all that! So what if you met SDAs who resisted your attempt to evade the truth! Telling me this doesn't make you truthful, but instead deliberately subjective.

You should have realised by now that your vain attempt to bully me will not work, and I have a funny feeling you will live to realize your endless folly.

Carry on with your mischief!

Keep foaming in the mouth and feeling self-bullied as you prove the point of SDA cultism. . . what a laugh!

@Bobbyaf,

You're very childish on top of everything. In my travels, I have personally witnessed SDA members who are very belligerent, prejudicial and prejudging people whom they don't even know, use words and statements carelessly without a clue what they mean, and can't endure admonition for correction. If you admit all these describe you, then keep it up and continue proving my point.

@Bobbyaf,

Well, you have proven your point: infact, all SDA people I have met in all my travels are belligerent. And if you're equating your attitude to the apostle Paul's deportment, you probably have another Bible.

@Bobbyaf,

A word is enough for the wise; but it appears you really don't have the wisdom that recognizes simple issues. Here's a line of concern in yours:

Bobbyaf:
The use of scripture was not mentioned as proof that certain pastors were false teachers, since I don't happen to know any of them in particular, at least not in Nigeria itself. They were mentioned just to throw "caution to the wind" The fact that Jesus warned of false teachers means that such warnings were meant to be mentioned, if not by me, but anyone else for that matter.

It's sad that you're so acridly prejudicial in your remarks when you have no facts to sustain or defend your inferences. How can you pre-judge people that you don't happen  to know at all??

And your idea that Scripture mentions anything "just to throw caution to the wind" speaks volumes to the fact that you don't know the Word. The idiom "to throw caution to the wind" simply means "to take a risk" or "to behave or speak very rashly"!! So, in your inflated ego, your own Bible speaks about an issue for the purpose of behaving or speaking very rashly?

You may think you're attacking someone, in this case shahan, and yet have no clue that your exercise is backfiring. If God is working in your heart, be careful that you don't twist or ridicule His holy Word in the hope that you're justifying your efforts in attacking someone.

@Bobbyaf,

I wonder if you have issues with shahan? It's very perculiar that almost all the SDA members I have come across in my travels are very belligerent. Is God working in your life at all??

@8oracle,

Please don't sweat it, because you're going round in circles and not able to articulate yourself. What you have succeeded in doing is preach two Gods - one as "mighty" while the other is "almighty". This only means you are preaching "two Gods" and that is not Christianity.

Why don't you take time and receive shahan's advice to carefully read the Old Testament about who God is, before you arrive at what the Bible did not teach? Perhaps the following might help you:

1. Who is the LORD?

2. How many LORD are in the Bible?

3. Who is the Mighty God?

4. How many "Mighty God" are there in the Bible?

5. Is "the Mighty God" separate and different from "the Almighty God"?

6. Where did you find "a lesser god" in the Bible?

7. Did Jesus Christ anywhere ask you to call Him "a lesser god"?

Maybe these few questions will help guide you so that you do not continue to make unscriptural statements and say they are correct.

Sad to hear about his ''saga'', but as it's written: "let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall."

Grace.

Dru,

U make so much sense here, I must say. Like I pointed out before, there's a tendency for some people to pander revisionist ideas to make it easier for their discussion to hold course. This revisionist idea stretches so far as to accuse others of having the tendency to muddle "commonly held terminology" - and yet claim that atheism is not a denial of existence of deity, but rather a lack of belief in any deity. I posit that nferyn is tying himself with his own hose by "giving (his own) very personal interpretion of these terms," no less atheism, for the commonly held terminology of atheism is simply a denial of existence, not the revised and polarised adjustments to suit our dear discussants.

Again, enjoy. . . or just 4get_me for now.

This still amuses me. Atheism is nothing less than an active denial of the existence of God. QED.

Anything else as supposing that it is merely the absence of a belief in deity is revisionist theorising. We've been through this discussion before, and one would have hoped that more mature discussions would follow.

Anyhow, enjoy.

My dear olabowale,

No, I didn't "conveniently" avoid the issue of temptation that you raised, and I thought my response would have been sufficient in addressing the substance of your earlier concern - which is about polygamy vis-a-vis monogamy.

To be sure, there's no one that does not face temptation in this world. The question of import, however, is how one handles temptations when they come. In the Bible, one is not to succumb to them but to rather overcome them by the power of the Holy Spirit dwelling in the heart of the Christian believer. On the other hand, to take more than one wife and claim that is best suits our purposes as sanction by *Allah* does not make any sense, because it only makes one wonder why even in the Qur'an, Muhammad received "revelation" to go after his own maternal and paternal cousins - something which is antithetical to faith, reason and holiness. This is the reason that so many Muslims are not able to give a precise figure for the number of wives that the prophet of Islam took and excuses abound for any figure from 9 to 12 to 22 and more.

We all know that even if we took more than 22 wives and compete with Solomon's record of a thousand women, we'd all come to see indeed that making excuses for 3 more wives + 1 is vanity, as Solomon testified.

The big picture at the end of the day is that when temptations come (as indeed they do), faith and holiness do not drive a man to succumb to them and claim that it is the proper way and the right thing to do. Rather, we know how to overcome these temptations without making excuses - because of the power of the Holy Spirit dwelling in us through faith in Jesus Christ.

Marrying one wife makes sense; making excuses for 3 more wives does not solve the problem of temptations, regardless the opinions or excuses.

I've tried to lay the points open for our dear friend ishmael, and capped it up with "C'est fini" because I anticipated that there could just be no end in sight of arguing with those calling "Hagar" the "wife" of Abraham - even where the same texts in the Bible they quote disproves their points. It seems that no matter how evidently a matter stands, our Muslim discussants are ready to go any length to recast Biblical naratives - which only weakens their inputs all the more. One thing I appreciate, though, is that ishmael could at least acknowledge that the Bible is the Word of God, even though he has his own un-literal meanings to it:

ishmael:
My advice to you is for you to stop giving literal meanings to the word of God.

Anyhow, Davidylan has helped to remind us again, in response to ishmael's request, that Isaac's blessings include being lord over his brethren. That says it all.

Babyosisi, hope you're doing great? It seems to me that anytime I greet other Nairaland members, uncle 'Wale is ready to write me off as a 'fornicator' - by Islamic standards. Wetin I go do?? Lol.

Hmmm. . . lol. I agree. I haven't been much in touch with the other chaps - but will talk to y'all later tonight, I hope. Everyone's been so busy. Okay, t2u L8r, abi?