₦airaland Forum

dblock:
things they do have in common they both brought believers that will one day fight each other on the last days

That's human nature - even if a new religion emerges tomorrow with multiplied "peace" messages, its adherents will still fight one another and fight everyone else. In India, it's now part of the culture for Hindus and Muslims to battle one another.

I don't think Muhammad and Jesus Christ have anything in common. The amazing this is, Muslim apologists today are more and more trying to establish the credibility or qualify Muhammad as a prophet by dreaming up the notion that Islam and Muhammad were prophesied in the Bible. Somebody by the username of abdul fata has even seen the kaaba (the sacred shrine of Islam) in the Bible - he quoted Psalm 84! Titters! And these Muslims have not asked themselves why Christians do not need the Qur'an or hadith to "prove" or establish Jesus Christ as the Messiah. Then with the plurality of the Allah of the Qur'an, Muslims still want us to believe that Islam is the only and purest monotheistic religion sent down from heaven. Not to even mention that "Allah" had no clue what was contained in the Gospel he purported to have sent down to Jesus and the other scriptures that 'he' confirmed - such as the Law of Moses and the Psalms of David. More titters!

There's one thing though: Muhammad who received his Qur'an by "revelation" should have been honest enough to tell his followers that God did not write the Qur'an - men did! Muslim apologists today will dribble round that by claiming it was only a "compilation" of the pure words of Allah revealed to Muhammad. For all of that, 'compilation' or whatever else - the Qur'an was written by man with ink and paper. Period. The sanctimonious attachment of Muslims to the Qur'an often makes them fail to see that there's nothing "pure" about a document compiled and written down on paper by man from bones, plant leaves, animal skins and tree barks.

Okay, like dblock, I don't want to start another chaos. But it would be well for some of our Muslim apologists to note these issues before they start making noise about the Bible having been written by man; at least, Christians have never pretended that the Bible was written by inspired men communicating God's word through the Holy Spirit. The Qur'an however, was written by the companions of Muhammad who received no revelation or inspiration from God, but only gathered whatever they did from various animal and plant materials.

Pastor was quiet for a few minutes. . . smiled, and asked us what truly mattered in life to each and every one of us.

Thoughts. . . whispers. . . more smiles. . . brain-racking. . . and yet more smiles.

Bottomline after he preached on "Treasuring Your God-Given Commitment" - never take anything God gives you for granted because He provides circumstances and resources to shape our lives for His glory and for our eternal blessing.

IBB, you be correct man! Problem is, my wife is the best thing (outside of salvation) that ever happened to me! No woman - by prophecy, revelation, babalawo, or astrology - comes close to the jewel God gave me. Kai, she's more that 77 x 7 women to me!!

@Gwaine,

I follow your rejoinders with interest and was wondering that KAG missed the sequence of nferyn's logic. Like KAG, I'm no expert on the rubrics of quantum physics (or any physics for that matter), but it doesn't appear to me that the skeptical application of the logic used so far by nferyn has been consistent; and predictably it could not hold any substance when applied to "mirror" his own reasoning.

nferyn,

nferyn:
Assertion is neither proof nor evidence. One can repeat the claim that the earth is flat as much as one wants, that doesn't make it any more true.

I agree with you on that note - that assertions are neither proof nor evidence. However, one thing is for sure: miracles are real, and I've experienced it in my life time and again with evidence attested to by those who have checked out my claims.

TV01,

I have more distinctions to make of "Church" than you supposed - as used of men and as used in the Bible. Whatever the case, your use of "curse" on anyone does not reflect a biblical position. Nowhere do you find God cursing the church, whether as referring to the various "institutionalised religion" or the Body of Christ. Do the churches have problems? Yes, as surely as we read of in the NT and as we see in our day. Are we therefore to judge and curse anyone? No, for that is God's prerogative and not man's.

1 Cor. 4:5 Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.

You may not agree and still want to judge and curse some before the time and before the Lord comes - it's all as you wish.

I Samuel 8 does not speak anywhere of a curse. Quoting verse 9 from your version: "However, you shall solemnly forewarn them, and show them the behavior of the king who will reign over them." There you have it - "solemnly forewarn them" does not translate as "solemnly curse them", does it? If I missed the verse for where you had your curse, please show me.

Just because they asked for a King does not mean that God pronounced a curse on them. So, what then was David - a king set by God over His people (I Sam. 16:1, 12-13), or a consequence of the curse that you supposed stemmed from I Samuel 8?

In this dispensation, Christians have no other King than the Lord Jesus Christ. Correct me where I'm wrong, but I don't know of any denomination that has made a king over them other than the Lord, as you hinted at.

Your curse is not justified anywhere in the Bible; and as I Cor. 4:5 says, we ought not to judge anything until the Lord comes. It's all up to you to ignore that, do your own thing and continue to curse/judge anyone as you so please.

I'm available anytime for whatever else you'd like to discuss.

Regards.

me,myself:
emmie j AND 4_get me, i respect your God, i'm not askin to u to respect mine, because i can't 4ce u but please don't call him or any of his prophets names,please.

@me,myself
You've had enough for the day, and I'm not one to continue a debate with ill-feelings. However, just incase you're confusing me for someone else, I haven't called God or any of His prophets names.

Peace.

@emmie4j,

If your questions were for me, here are my answers:

1) you don't know me half-way from Adam, so don't keep making a fool of yourself by insinuating that I'm a Muslim.

2) intelligent Christians and Muslims don't trade insults, and that's why I asked that you refrained.

3) if accusing a Prophet of pedophilia helps you get into heaven, wait for the surprise on Judgement Day - for only God is Judge.

4) if a word is enough for the wise, let's see where you belong.

Blessings.

me,myself:
4_get me, like i said, the beef u've got is wit Ajisafe,so please face him. he claims to knows so much about islam but obviously he doesnt as if he does, he would know that he's sinned greatly by callin Jesus, an european demi god, as Jesus is not a god in islam but he's one of our prophets!and as far as i know, u don't insult a prophet and get away wit it!

so please, i don't like this, could u guys please just ignore Ajisafe, and in time he'll get tired of talkin to himself! i think he's some sick guy who is gettin his kicks frm this

@me,myself,

I understand you, but it's not my style to see things happening like this. I'm not the one returning caustic and vitriolic invectives - and I trust you can see that. We can all have debates without trading insults; however, where things of this nature occur for no reason at all, it's not normal, but rather unfortunate that it has gotten to this level.

@emmie4j,

Please refrain. Good sense is not displayed by provocative statements.

Zahymaka:
Now, now this is turning into something else.

Oh well, now it's getting hot, isn't it? I respectfully emailed the moderator about this because I saw it coming miles ahead. What did we get? Since Ajisafe thought he had the sweet ticket of a lone ranger on the Forum to be insensitive to other people's feelings, see what's happening now? I don't lend any support to stuff like this, but if the rules for posting here had been respected, it would not have descended to this level, wouldn't you agree?

Peace.


____________

@belloti,
My hugs to you (if you'd accept them). I'm not angry at you at all - and I'm as angry as you are at what's going on. On behalf of myself, I apologise to every single Muslim and Christian who's as angry at the ill-feelings expressed at the respected faiths we're all seeking to understand.

Blessings.

____________

@emmie4j,
Perhaps I understand where you're coming from - you might be reacting to provocation after long patience and forebearance. May I appeal that you refrain and forebear for now. Not everyone is the same as the chap you're reacting to. Please, hhmm?

Applause, my dear friend belloti. You would observe we had a mutual debate and came to an amicable headway at the end of the day. Like you, when someone insults my God and Lord, I take that personally.

You still have my respects, no doubt about that. But I will not tolerate any cross-fires where my faith is vilified with outlandish invectives.

Peace to you.

Great. Some of us are waiting, and in just the same way we're ready to show you how the Qur'an is not the word of God.

Christian extremists and fundamentalists in America do not define Christianity, much as you would agree that Muslim extremists and fundamentalists in any part of the several Islamic countries do not define Islam. Your attempts at trumping up the Islamic stereotype of the West is not helping issues, because you've often used that as a launching pad for your invectives at Christianity as a whole.

So, all the killings in recent times by the Muslim extremists and fundamentalists have been done in what name? In what name have the Palestinians been calling for the annihilation of Israel?

me,myself:
emmie J, i have absolutely no problem wit u and ajisafe! but don't you DARE call my prophet a peadophile, what has he EVER done to you? and he slept with children? . . .

IF YOU'VE GOT BEEF FOR HIM(Ajisafe), FACE HIM BUT DONT DO THIS(insult the prophet(saw)). ITS A BIG BIG BIG SIN.

@me,myself,

Excuse me, but you shouldn't complain about that now. If discussions are to be held in a Forum with mutual respect for the faiths of people, I see no reason why Ajisafe would leave issues aside and go so far as to call our Lord Jesus Christ "a European demigod" and refer to our Christian faith as 'the ridiculous "trinity"'. This is why I "went behind the curtains to email Nwoke" about what might result when people cast aspersions on the Prophets rather than seek to discuss amicably. I know you don't like this happening, nor do I. But I reckoned someone was going to be miffed and say the nasty things as emmie4j has, in response to Ajisafe's.

Ajisafe:
I'm laughing out loud! They'll start a fight they can't finish; afterwards, they'll go behind the curtain e-mailing Nwoke about Ajisafe. Cowards!

True - I don't know about others, but yes I was one of those who went behind the curtains emailing Nwoke about your use of uncultured language. I bet you wouldn't want to know what his reply was: he broke the rules of posting on Nairaland. So, we've heard it all - let Nairaland know that some people emailed Nwoke, as if that adds or takes away from the substance of ths issue.

Ajisafe:
People like you and 4get_Me are the root cause of all the hulabaloos on nairaland, and you make me sick. I really don't want to say anything to you lest you and your fellow christians start yelling my name and e-mailing Nwoke to complain about me.

Glad to know that I'm one of those who cause your sleepless nights. Are you missing me that badly? Say whatever you want without recourse to acrid language - was that too much for you to handle?

Hi TV01,

Let me share my views with you rancour-free and in the spirit of dialogue. I'm not one given to cynical talk or sarcasm, and I do my best to face issues rather than express sly invectives.

TV01:
Okay, so you are not and never have been  Roman Catholic, yet you question most of the practices that you say are "clearly extra-biblical"

May I ask why?

Questioning the practices of any group is not the same thing as laying a curse on them, is it? Besides, none of the verses you quoted in support of your "curse" or "consequence" actually point to the issue. It began with 1 Samuel 8, and if you insist there's a curse in that text, just point it out.

TV01:
This grace that I apparently don't see and you obviously do, how does it work? Doesn't it obviate the need to point out "extra-biblical" practices. Why not just let them get on with it? Surely it's just a difference in approach, or maybe an alternative way of practicing their religion? Does this grace you speak about, not cover up or carry over these practices?

Simple: it works as I've told you before - try not going beyond what the Bible says. If God has not cursed anyone, why sweat it out cursing them by yourself? The Lord did not curse churches that had problems (as the examples in Revelation 2 & 3); so why would you go the length of doing so on your own?

TV01:
If most of the practices are in your considered opinion "extra-biblical", how much extra-biblical practice is acceptable before there's a problem? before error, before apostasy? So presumably, you are somehow more pious, because you point it out as wrong, but fail to point out or warn of possible consequences. Or maybe there aren't any?

Questioning and warning go together - and I've done them both consistently, even in your case. I questioned so many things you've stated; warned that you're going beyond what is stated in Scripture; and I'm still doing it here. Notice, not one time have I ever used a word in the pejorative sense at you nor have I cursed you with one verse from the Bible. When we question certain practices that are unbiblical or extra-biblical, we warn people involved in them in the spirit of humility, with words of grace seasoned with salt, and refrain from cursing people even when they don't heed the warnings (Col. 4:6).

Now tell me, if questioning and warning equates "cursing" and speaking to people in "pejorative sense", what Bible have you been reading?

TV01:
Why point it out? If there is no consequence, no curse, no judgment?
Is it just a point scoring exercise to you? Or maybe you are just trying to establish the superiority of your own tradition or knowledge?

Sad if that's all you could read in my posts. When you decry the traditions of others in preference for your own with the constant use of "pejorative sense", and "why do I so detest that word leader/s", have you not clearly demonstrated that you're trying to be superior to others and scoring your own points?

No one's denying you the right to express your opinions or question the practices in the denominations: I've done so and continue to do so. However, when you keep harping on almost anything and everything with a "pejorative sense" to the extent of cursing God's people, you've gone beyond opinions into a serious matter - and that has to be taken up. The whimpering then is none other but yours.

All I've said is show me where in the Scriptures you were ferreting your curse on the church, for that is precisely what you stated in another thread (read it here), with emphasis "Yes I do" -

TV01:
"A curse on the church currently" ~ Yes I do. It's a consequence of men asking for a king. Another thread? 

It was the church you cursed, yes? And you've found no grace at all to see how wrong you were all along, yes? FYI, God did not curse the church - and that's what I've consistently maintained.

Wanna discourse the Revelation? Welcome anytime. My weekend was busy but very pleasant - thanks for asking. 

Regards.

Dude TV01,

Hope your Sunday was a pleasant one. I haven't insisted on anything or dodged the meat of any issue. You've consistently cursed and judged other people and insisted on using words pejoratively at them. All I asked was that you showed me where you found curses in the several texts you've alluded to. You showed none. God made no pronouncements of any curses in I Samuel 8. If He did, I asked you to show me; you did not.

There are several other texts besides 2 Thes. 2:11 where declarations like you've quoted thereto are found; but I ask - was that text directed at believers who know the Lord? Or, again, could that be used as a 'curse' verse? Revelation 19 is yet future, where multitudes praise God for His judgements; so it's inconsequential in the present discourse.

I don't always pick and cavil at non-essentials. If you're expressing an opinion, no qualms. When you state something of a curse with emphasis where the texts do not say so, you're no longer sharing an opinion. I've dealt with the issue of tithing extensively in other threads. Not satisfied? Clearly state your concerns. What I promised earlier was not a follow up on tithing, but the difference between Law, Grace and the Sabbath. But you left those out and kept on harping on tithes in almost every post, even in some off-topic. Care to explain why you're perturbed about my calling your attention to that?

TV01:
If you want to discuss, I'm here. But I have to ask that you consider your responses in future and stay on message or else! (no dude it's not a curse .

I don't take that as a threat, and you should read me well: I've always stayed on message. Take your own advice: no need to mention what is uncalled for; and as long as your statements border on something more than opinions, others will ask questions and call your attention to them.

Enjoy.

Well, I'm blushing now. All I can say is the praise to God alone.

I can guarantee you one thing: I don't know half of God's Word as you may suppose of me. But by careful study and disciplined application in my daily walk, you find me as I am. . .lol.

Second thing is that God will bless your labour in His Word - who knows? - you might even surpass me and several others in a very short while (I'm not flattering you: I actually mean it!).

God can use any means according to His purpose, but the main thing (as you already know) is consistency in study and disciplined application. In my case, I was a bit lazy and w__d (!), until God used my wife to challenge me recently.

lordimpaq, I trust God with all my heart that you're a better teacher - if you blush now, someday God will show it.

Blessings.

Hmmm, let's see:

There are leaders in the Church by their various offices and functions. Several words in the Bible all point to leaders/leadership positions in the Church - "rule" (e.g., I Tim. 5:17, KJV) and "authority" (e.g., II Cor. 10:8, KJV). You don't have to detest a word or position just bacause you feel in a certain way about them, even if they have been much abused today in many circles. It's there in the Bible in positive sense, and that should be helpful enough.

You don't define a "true church" by problems in them. The Lord knows who are His, so let's leave this matter alone in His hands. As long as they don't profess faith in anyone or anything else than the Lord Jesus Christ and seek to honour Him by the Word, there's no reason to be hard-pressed about this issue of trying to point out just who and who are the "true churches" and others who are "false/fake churches."

Another example from the Laodicean Church in Rev. 3:14-22 might be helpful. The situation was dire, and these dear folks had fallen into materialism as a gauge for measuring spirituality. Nonetheless, in His rebuke, the Lord did not call them a "fake/false church" because of their spiritual malady - He simply counselled them (vs.18 ), and challenged them to be zealous, and to repent (vs. 19).

A lot of sad stuff are in our various churches. He who has ears, let him/her hear God's gracious call to walk in His word. Where we observe whatever we're not happy with, it would be better to leave matters of divine judgement in His hands alone. Much as we decry the wrong principles and practices in many quarters, let's do so without overstepping our bounds.

With love.

lol. . . No, I'm not.

lordimpaq:
why should we, the catholics that make use of images break this law,

That's true, and sad as it is. However, it's not just about what we bow down to, but includes what's in our hearts as well.

Amen.

@lordimpaq,

Uh-oh. . .lol - am I in trouble now?

Okay, I do a lot of travelling by nature of my work; so when I'm in the USA, I attend Bellview Baptist Church in Coldova, TN.

Right there, TYPOP.

The Bible shows indeed that worry and anxiety are counter productive to our lives; but it doesn't mean that we should not plan at all for the future. The issue is that some people plan anxiously (instead of planning confidently) - and therefore worry comes knocking. This is not a matter of placing our confidence or trust in ourselves, our resources or capabilities - that kind of attitude is decried in James 4:13-17.

Plan your life with confident trust in God, and don't be anxious about the uncertainties of tomorrow - for with God, the believer's tomorrow is blessed according to His will. That's one way to understand Matthew 6:34 - "Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof."

We all agree as to two things: discrimination is widespread and it's counter productive. You find it in political circles, cultural and social relations, and religious concerns. However, many people who complain against this social bane unfortunately are unable to refrain from exhibiting a discriminatory attitude towards others.

Judging other denominations is not the business of anybody as far as God and the Bible are concerned. We may question and refute certain unbiblical or extra-biblical principles and practices in some denominations, as surely as the Bible tells us to "have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them" (Eph. 5:11). Yet we are to foster a spirit of love towards people and seek their spiritual welfare.

It is human nature to gloat at the mistakes and "sins" of other people while excusing, defending and apologising for their own. A servant of God spends church funds lavishly; another pronounces a "prophecy" which hardly seems so in public perception; a third beats his wife and marries a "sweeter sixteen". . . and many will hardly resist the temptation to slant and ridicule them, so long as it is "their church", and not "my church".

Please people, the time has come for each one of us to re-examine ourselves before we stretch out our hands and fingers at others. We surely cannot keep silent in the face of open fraud and pretences in Christendom - especially as it pertains to the glory of Christ's name. However, judging and discriminating between church denominations with a censorious spirit in our hearts is something which will continue to be counter productive in our society. And if you're not a Christian and just seeking every opportunity to castigate the Christian faith, you'll find more than enough excuses to do so because charlatans are never in short supply with their games. At the end of the day, we shall all stand before the Great Judge to give account of our own works and words - including the prejudiced accusations of our tongues!

May God help each heart to seek to be more godly in an evil age.

Regards.

God's command to feel from idols was not just referring to one group of Christians - everyone is to take heed: Catholic, Protestant and others. Idolatry in the NT goes beyond merely bowing down to sculptured images. It can include pollutions of idols (Acts 15:20, 29), as well as fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness (Col. 3:5). Idolatry in the latter sense is classed as works of the flesh in Gla. 5:19-20.

As you can see, idolatry is not just a matter of what we observe practised in one group or another - whether in bowing down to this or that. We ought to flee from the idols of our own hearts before we can see better to ask our brethren to flee from the sculptures of another system. How much covetousness does God see in some of our own hearts? How much uncleanness and inordinate affection? Isn't it laughable that some can actually be boastful of their "humility" when in fact they manifest unbridled pride? Think of the pain it brings to God's heart that some who flock to church on Sundays would find pleasure in watching "soft porn" with no tinge of caution to their consciences. Are these not idolatry as well? May God help each one of us to see beyond our small complaints. Flee. . . flee. . . flee from those "idols" which are not so obvious but tucked away in the heart, because that is where the real danger lurks.

God hates idolatry of the heart as much as He does the sculptures that people bow down to -

"For every one of the house of Israel, or of the stranger that sojourneth in Israel, which separateth himself from me,
and setteth up his idols in his heart, and putteth the stumblingblock of his iniquity before his face, and cometh to a
prophet to enquire of him concerning me; I the LORD will answer him by myself: And I will set my face against that man,
and will make him a sign and a proverb, and I will cut him off from the midst of my people; and ye shall know that I am
the LORD." (Eze 14:7-.

However, His loving grace holds out a promise of forgiveness and cleansing to those who repent:

"Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I
cleanse you. A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony
heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk
in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them." (Eze 36:25-27).

"And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said,
I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. Wherefore come out from
among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you, And will be a
Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty." (2Co 6:16-18).

God bless.

Hello TV01,

I trust you had a good weekend. A few things have occupied me as well, so no problem posting a little late. My response:

Regardless of your definition, God did not make it anyone's business - yours, mine or others' - to lay any curse on people, and there are several verses to show that. It is His prerogative to do the judging on that Day. We may question most of the various practices in Christendom (especially where they are the traditions of men); where we find them unsatisfactory expressions of the Lord's mind, ours is to cleanse ourselves and be prepared vessels for His good works (II Tim. 2:19-22). "Systems" and "claims" do not put any man in God's stead to curse or judge, while conveniently labelling his-/herself a "Bible believing Christian."

Let me help with the example of the Lord's attitude to the church in Sardis in Rev. 3:1-6. Notice His words to them: "You have the reputation of being alive, but you are dead" (ESV). This is the equivalent of your concern about "people who claim to be, but are not." What was the Lord's attitude towards them? He observed that their works were not perfect before God and simply asked them to be watchful and repent (vs. 2-3). You will not find Him pronouncing a curse or judgement on them, sad as their case may have been. It is in the strength of such clear examples in the authority of God's word that I've appealed time and again that you refrain from cursing and judging anyone, using terms pejoratively to describe people, or reading things into Scripture where they don't exist. God is Judge - leave the judgements to Him alone.

No problem with your attending whatever group that suits you by whatever term. I don't think God is really concerned with how we describe ourselves; but He certainly is concerned about how we term or describe other people. When you came out of a "system" (i.e., "staunch traditionalist" and now use pejorative descriptions at them, don't you think it's a little worrisome that you still go to the same "systems" (i.e., "traditional church" that you protest against? My point is, if you're not satisfied with a church, seek God's will in fellowship wherever you may feel at home without exhibiting a censorious attitude towards those whom you were formerly part of.

I was never Roman Catholic and my attitude towards them was equally unbalanced. But when I saw that it was not my place to censor or judge anyone in the various denominations, I repented and held my tongue from that very day. True, I may still question most of the practices that are clearly extra-Biblical in them; but questioning those practices does not give me a right to be pejorative to the extent of judging and/or cursing anyone. Please don't feel that I'm being censorious towards you; I'm appealing to your good sense of reasoning as a fellow brother in the Christian faith. Let's learn more to love the people and leave matters of divine judgement in God's hands alone.

Welcome anytime to asking any questions. May God bless the hearts of all who seek Him in truth and love.

4get_me.

Hey guys, I don't think the article ought o disturb our peace at all. I'd read i earlier but had very little time to point out a few things, which now I offer:

1) The author Azfar Samin quipped that the Prophet of Islam could not have uttered such a blasphemy (that is, "Amen" or "Amin" as the Hadith did not come into existence until 200-300 years after the Prophet had died.

2) The reader needs to understand that the author sees the Hadith as an untrustworthy document (even though most Muslims highly regard it!). I suspect that the website is being operated by some Shia Muslims who take a stance against the Sunni interpretation of Islam. Another (M. Asadi) wrote another article accusing the Hadith of being a conspiracy on "how Islam's distortion took place".

3) After playing the blame game of "amen" on Christianity and Judaism, Azfar Samin went on to connect the word with some Egyptian and early paganism. He does this by cleverly trying to run a mock "root letters AMN" of what he supposed the word "amen" would have been derived.

4) Finally, he asks the question: "Can't we find some other word to express our conviction to God Almighty?" Now, is anyone surprised that he had nothing to offer?? This guy spent a full page criticising the Prophet, the Hadith, the "Amen/Amin" word, castigates every other Muslim of the dangerous "middle ground" of the "Sahih" (the True Hadith). . . and finally, he has NO alternative word to offer?

5) Is anyone going to be credulous enough to take this guy seriously? Wait, his name is Azfar Samin. . . do you catch the drift that the guy doesn't like his own name "Samin"? I mean, take another look - remove the "S" and what root word do you have? The same "amin". . . so add it up:

S + amin = Samin.

Phew!! Felas and ladies, this guy is a joker. Laugh his jokes off and be not perturbed.

TV01,

As stated before, I'm not taking anything personal nor am I offended. If you read me so, no qualms.

First, you've not shown me what your own denominational/church model is, call it whatever you like.

Yes, I question most of the practices in the Catholic tradition; but that is no warrant for me or anyone else to place a curse on them, especially when God has not said so. I remind you: "How shall I curse, whom God hath not cursed?" (Num. 23:8 ). That is the principle that runs through scripture. Now when you use I Samuel 8 to log a curse on the Church, you're no longer sharing an opinion but judging as if you're God sitting on the judgement throne.

The new idea now is that you've left I Samuel 8 and running under cover of Revelation 18. Let's make it clear: do you concede that I Samuel 8 does not speak of a curse on God's people (OT or NT) contrary to your assertion earlier? You have still not answered that question. But I'll not be tedious to you any longer on that. Bottom line is: don't curse anyone or system if God has not granted you the judicial capacity to do so.

It's not clear to me if you actually are open to views. For example, are you specifically about "teaching" or "teacher" as gifts or office respectively? To me, there's no confusing the two, because there were those called "teachers" so appointed (the office - see I Tim. 2:7; Acts 13:1 & II Tim. 1:11), as well as those who exercise the gift of teaching (II Tim. 2:2). Just because we are all encouraged to teach others what we have learned does not mean that we are all "teachers" as used in Eph. 4:11. The question is asked: Are all teachers? (I Cor. 12:29), and from what the apostle shared previously in verse 28, it would be a clear "No."

In the local church where I worship, we do not have an apostle. This in no way means I should deny that God had raised apostles and others according to Ehp. 4:11 besides the early Christians. I don't want to draw this into an encyclopedia, but so that I could discuss with you in a directed manner, may I ask you to share what roles you think each of the gifts mentioned in the Eph. 4:11 actually were meant to fulfill in the Church. I don't mind that you outline them in some depth, so I could understand how you view the roles, offices, and functions of each ministering gift. That perhaps might be more helpful.

Regards.

And your point is?