Zither:
Lol. I have the impression you give your likes grudgingly, but thanks for the like, and for your careful perusal.

The entire post was art, what sold it for me, was the crescendo at the end, where and when you said: "His omni-x nature is not tied to need; it is tied to His will as a sovereign Being.". I buckled at that last sentence because it really is true, it captured and encapsulated the essence of the post itself and is a very insightful, very deep and very sexy beautiful statement

Zither:


If you knew how much God has helped you, how much He has done for you, how much He loves you then how do you love Him in return, how do you appreciate all He has done for you, what do you do to acknowledge His mercy, love, and goodness towards you? That is worship — that's why we "bother" to worship.

What if i don't want to worship him? Why is there a punishment attached to not worshipping him?

Zither:

You might want to rephrase your question here as the words in bold ink have no relationship of coherence with the paragraph in plain ink.

It was a response to another user. You can see you're not the only one i quoted in my last post

TheArranger:
What if i don't want to worship him?

Simple. Exercise your freewill and damn the consequence then

TheArranger:
Why is there a punishment attached to not worshipping him?

Why shouldnt there be existence of judgement?
Give me a reason(s) why there shouldnt be judgement please.

TheArranger:
The creative process seems inexorably tied to needs. This process surges as a result of the need to survive, compete or for expression. (It can also happen by accident...)

An omni-x being, or God, by definition has no needs. One might argue that creating would go against his nature. From the Abrahamic standpoint, why would said beings create inferior beings to worship him?

One could attempt an argument as follows:

1. An omni-x being has no needs or reason to create anything

2. An omni-x being would simply be.

3. The universe exists.

4. Therefore, if the universe was created, the author was an entity with a need. (Or created it by accident...)

This conclusion would point to a being quite different from the omni-x God theists describe.

In fact, this omni-x God seems like a classic post hoc explanation for a reality we find difficult to explain.

What do you think?

A Creator without needs I can compute with one exception. He has a need to create. Otherwise, what is He a Creator for?

MuttleyLaff:

Why shouldnt there be existence of judgement?
Give me a reason(s) why there shouldnt be judgement please.

If God should concern himself with punishing people who don't worship him. Doesn't it imply that he needs them to worship him?

TheArranger:
The creative process seems inexorably tied to needs. This process surges as a result of the need to survive, compete or for expression. (It can also happen by accident...)

An omni-x being, or God, by definition has no needs. One might argue that creating would go against his nature. From the Abrahamic standpoint, why would said beings create inferior beings to worship him?

One could attempt an argument as follows:

1. An omni-x being has no needs or reason to create anything

2. An omni-x being would simply be.

3. The universe exists.

4. Therefore, if the universe was created, the author was an entity with a need. (Or created it by accident...)

This conclusion would point to a being quite different from the omni-x God theists describe.

In fact, this omni-x God seems like a classic post hoc explanation for a reality we find difficult to explain.

What do you think?

I like your argument and it is very logical. However it does not negate the existence of a creator, its conclusion is simply that a creator who doesn't have need cannot exist.

the concept of God who doesn't have a need yet creates something do not exist.

Good argument.

UyiIredia:


A Creator without needs I can compute with one exception. He has a need to create. Otherwise, what is He a Creator for?

He has a need to create then he literally has a need then.

ThothHermes:
Whoever said God has to be omni-x

The omni qualities are basically a fundamental definition of God, at least on a cosmological scale.

johnydon22:
He has a need to create then he literally has a need then.

Yes. One need.

budaatum:

I agree. We create images in our puny heads and call it God despite the advice not to create images nor bow to worship them then we claim we are doing the will of God.

What a bunch of amusing people we are.

I don't understand the need to create God in an image. God is immaterial.

TheArranger:
Seun, Mynd44, Muttleylaff, bloodofthelamb, alBHAGDADI, bobowaja, brodalokie, 1Sharon, LordReed, budaatum, IAmSabrina, Martinez39/Martinez19, Hermes019, Ihedinobi3, Atewo400, butterflylion/butterflyleo/butterflyl1on, GoodMuyis, Dantedasz, Anas09, HardMirror, hopefullandlord, Joseph1013, CAPSLOCKED, frosbel2, shadeyinka, Dhumancanvas, felixomor, jesusjnr, MhizAngel99, malvisguy212, Akin1212, theoriginalgood, finalboss, Originakalokalo, Michellekabod1/Michellekabod2, tintingz, TATIME, Amyblessed, Mobilia, luvmijeje, JujuSugar, vaxx, Ranchhoddas, rekinomtla, shakmati, MrPRevailer, OpenYourEyes1, gensteejay, LordCenturion, Horiolah, MJBOLT, UyiIredia, johnydon22, GeneralShepherd, PastorAIO, NnennaG6, janettee, paxonel, kkins25, sonmvayina, frank317, Ishilove, HappyPagan, NPComplete, hahn, Emmanystone, Bacteriologist, Zither, GreatResearcher & all other NL religion section denizens

Apologies if i eviscerated your moniker. I basically did copypaste from multiple threads.

And who told you that God made you to worship Him? He made us to love us.

God created out of love. He made all things in love, goodness and kindness that he might share with them all that He is.

UyiIredia:


A Creator without needs I can compute with one exception. He has a need to create. Otherwise, what is He a Creator for?

God is an omni-x being first of all. Anything else follows after that. Given that he's an omni-x being, this suggests that he's perfect and eternal and has already attained all good ends. So why the need to create. Doesn't this imply dissatisfaction? If so, then God can't be perfect.

Zither:
TheArranger, you did not factor the will of such being into your premises? If God had a need He wouldn't be self-sufficient now, would He?

As a being, He has a will which He manifests in creation. It is easy to confuse the manifestation of will with the satisfaction of need. The manifestation of His will is an expression of His sovereignty, greatness and individuality evidenced by His creation.

The satisfaction of a need would imply His dependence on external factors, and as such that would be in contrast with His nature as a God who is before all.

In other words, His omni-x nature is not tied to need; it is tied to His will as a sovereign Being.

Whom exactly is such demonstration meant for?

Aren't you implying a need for self validation here?

bloodofthelamb:



And who told you that God made you to worship Him? He made us to love us.

God created out of love. He made all things in love, goodness and kindness that he might share with them all that He is.

He also made all things in hate, evil and harshness so He might share them. Evil is part of God's Nature.

UyiIredia:


Yes. One need.

That is the whole point. There must be a need factor.

TheArranger:

I think the need for expression would be our impasse then. As humans, there is evidence for this need for as far back as our origins go. Other species show this need as well. My questions would be why would an omni-x being express itself, considering how we view expression? I would accept expression for its own sake, but when inferior beings come into the question, that changes everything. The whole "its better to be than not" frankly falls flat on its face. Say that to people living on a dollar a day. Say that to people that have lived short, anguish filled lives full of pain. Say it to sex slaves, manufacturing slaves, etc. And if you both believe in the concept of Hell, love does not work in this equation.

I think you're making a big assumption about whether certain people want to exist or not.

TheArranger:

God is an omni-x being first of all. Anything else follows after that. Given that he's an omni-x being, this suggests that he's perfect and eternal and has already attained all good ends. So why the need to create. Doesn't this imply dissatisfaction? If so, then God can't be perfect.

Explain what you mean by 'attained all good ends'? How does God rhyme with that?

johnydon22:
That is the whole point. There must be a need factor.

How does the need factor invalidate the idea of God?

bloodofthelamb:



And who told you that God made you to worship Him? He made us to love us.

God created out of love. He made all things in love, goodness and kindness that he might share with them all that He is.

I worship and praise God out of love, and not out of duty. When men realize the heart of the Father flowing only with love, goodness and mercy for them, they will have no choice but to worship and praise Him for is great love.

I think this argument is decent. I call it the reverse cosmological argument. The traditional cosmological argument looks at the universe (or some part of it) and infers that there must be a God. The reverse cosmological argument looks at the universe and infers there must not be a God. The reasoning is like this:

P1) If anything that is not God exists, then God does not exist.

P2) Something that is not God exists (the universe or at least some part of it).

C) Therefore God does not exist.

So why think P1 is true? Because a maximally great being (God) would maintain the best type of world, and the best type of world is that in which God and nothing else exists. Why is that the case? Because things that are not God are infinitely worse than God.

The idea that God would want to create things strikes me as an anthropomorphization.

,

NnennaG6:

What need does a CEO have to paint a picture? Yet one might do so.

The need to paint a picture. Self satisfaction, self appraisal, demonstration of ability - many of them.

I fail to see how "for expression" could not be tied to an omni-x being as a reason for its creating. You can try to couch it in "the need for expression," but we're not going to agree that this counts as a real need and thus won't get very far.

Actually it is a need.

Who said He made these beings to worship Him? Maybe He made them because, knowing them prior to their creation, He loved them (the same way an author might love his novel characters), and, knowing it is better to be than not to be, made them to be, since He loves them.

1. Omni-factor and love? lol

2. He made them before he loved them or loved them before making them - which is it?

Your number 1 premise here is not fully supported. He has no need to create, sure. No reason? I disagree. Find out the explanation of love.

LOL

@johnydon22 Thanks for the compliments, bro

UyiIredia:


Explain what you mean by 'attained all good ends'? How does God rhyme with that?

Isn't he "perfect and eternal"?

NnennaG6:

I think you're making a big assumption about whether certain people want to exist or not.

What about suicides? I think its easier to say certain people dont want to exist than to defend a statement like its better to be than not.

johnydon22:


LOL

I am laughing with u there. Obviously, the need and reason explain themselves.

UyiIredia:


How does the need factor invalidate the idea of God?

It doesn't, it just simply implies that a God that by definition doesn't need is incompatible with that realization therefore cannot exist because such a God wouldn't create.

a God however who at least has a need to create can exist under the considered premise.

TheArranger:
@johnydon22 Thanks for the compliments, bro


Isn't he "perfect and eternal"?

Yes. So?

johnydon22:
It doesn't, it just simply implies that a God that by definition doesn't need is incompatible with that realization therefore cannot exist because such a God wouldn't create.

a God however who at least has a need to create can exist under the considered premise.

Fine by me. I mean what are we talking about. If God didn't need He would not create. Creation itself expresses a need.

So if I may ask: what is absurd about it?

johnydon22:
The need to paint a picture. Self satisfaction, self appraisal, demonstration of ability - many of them.

Actually it is a need.



1. Omni-factor and love? lol

2. He made them before he loved them or loved them before making them - which is it?

LOL

You people haven't demonstrated that a perfect being can only act from need. We can easily imagine a person who is perfectly content, yet still acts out of love to help someone else who is not content. Gifts given out of love would still possible for a perfect being.

IAmSabrina:
Why is that the case? Because things that are not God are infinitely worse than God.

This is easily obviated with the plausible presupposition that the total goodness of the world is a sum rather than an average.

NnennaG6:

You people haven't demonstrated that a perfect being can only act from need. We can easily imagine a person who is perfectly content, yet still acts out of love to help someone else who is not content. Gifts given out of love would still possible for a perfect being.

LOL. Acting out of love is also an expression of need. Need to express love.

primarily all actions falls down to a need.

For something to create anything, there must be at least a need to create, a desire to create. that is the point.

A creator who doesn't have a desire to create, won't.

a creator who does have a desire to create therefore has a need to satisfy this desire.

So, for the fact that this universe exists is incompatible with the idea that we are created by a creator who doesn't have a desire to create.

Zither:


It depends on your definition of worship. One can worship God just by loving Him, by spending time talking with Him as Adam and Eve did in the Garden of Eden, by thanking Him for His deeds, etc... You can see that none of this is a sine qua non for His existence or soveriegnty or greatness...attrubutes connected to His omni-x nature.

If God really needed worship to exist, He wouldn't be eternal or ageless. Through science we know that the universe is over 10 billion years old while the human race is not more than two hundred thousand years old. If God needed the "oxygen" of worship to survive why did He not create the human race earlier? We don't even have any idea how much time had passed before He created the universe. That is a no-man's land for science or logic. It could be a 100 or 500 quadrillion years or more before He created the universe itself. What is certain is that His creation is a manifestation of His will which He put into effect at His pre-determined timeframe, and not more. Everything we see was called into existence at the fullness of His set time of His will, not in response to His supposed dependence on a need.

Yes, if you created a Ferrari it is because you needed it and you would be incapacitated without it. This is why it is a creation of need. Unlike man, God is not incapacitated in the absence of His creation. In the book of Jeremiah 32:27, God asks, "I am the LORD of all flesh. Is anything too hard for me?" If I cultivated a rose garden, is it because I need the rose flower? I do it because I love roses.

In the same fashion Man is a creation of God's love, not need. His love is an act of His will. Look at God's creation and acts as an expression, rather than as a means to an end then you will have begun the journey to know Him better.

Exactly bro, we can still view it this way: God does good because he is good, not because he needs to do good. Amen!

bloodofthelamb:
And who told you that God made you to worship Him? He made us to love us.

God created out of love. He made all things in love, goodness and kindness that he might share with them all that He is.

"Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power:
for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created."
- Revelation 4:11

UyiIredia:
He also made all things in hate, evil and harshness so He might share them. Evil is part of God's Nature.

Man became god the moment after eating the fruit. Hate filled the vacuum, after the departure and/or absence of love. Evil filled the vacuum, after the departure and/or absence of good. Harshness proceeded and emanated because the ground was cursed due to man. There is no evil in God's Nature.