TV01:

Had a good read. Came away with an intuitive sense of it being correct in essence. Quite insightful and adds depth and detail to stuff I've come across before. Nothing to make me change position or shift stance in anyway. If anything, it probably deepened my conviction.

Truth is, I don't actually think one needs to have an in-depth knowledge of antiquity, be it language, culture or history to have a very clear perception of what obtains. What we need to know and more, can be revealed to us in the here and now.

^^Agree totally with you. It's easy to be distracted by traditions of men handed down as interpretations of scripture, forgetting the plain truth of the scriptures before us.

And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.

And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

Agree totally with you. It's easy to be distracted by traditions of men handed down as interpretations of scripture, forgetting the plain truth of the scriptures before us.

That was exactly the same thing,the simonians were thinking

Interesting comments.

@JeSoul

Please where is the scriptural directive that demands the submission of christians to pastors?

Here:

James 5:14 (WYC)
14 If any of you is sick, lead he in priests of the church, and pray they for him, and anoint him with oil in the name of the Lord [anointing with oil in the name of the Lord];

Hebrews 13:17 (MSG)
17Be responsive to your pastoral leaders. Listen to their counsel. They are alert to the condition of your lives and work under the strict supervision of God. Contribute to the joy of their leadership, not its drudgery. Why would you want to make things harder for them?

Acts 20:28 (NIV)
28Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers.[a] Be shepherds of the church of God,[b] which he bought with his own blood.

1 Timothy 5:17 (CEV)
17Church leaders [a] who do their job well deserve to be paid [b] twice as much, especially if they work hard at preaching and teaching.

^^Nice shot MyJoe. I see respect, I see love, I see listen to, I see cherish . . . those in leadership - not just pastors by the way. But none of those describe submission(and all that it entails) of christians to pastors according to the popular persuation practised today of "being under the authority" of pastor x, and this submission is one of the critical criteria which certifies you as a legitimate christian.

Well, the word you want is used here:
1 Peter 2:13 (NIV)
13Submit yourselves for the Lord's sake to every authority instituted among men: whether to the king, as the supreme authority,

in respect to authorities, which includes pastors since, as already established, they are the authority in the church, abi?

@MyJoe: And why a different version for each verse, I might ask?
Hebrews 13:17 in KJV is actually more explicit than the quoted Message version (a very poor translation in my opinion):

KJV: Hebrews 13:17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

And why does the WYC translate presbuteros as priest when it actually means elder? I fear that's a translation with an agenda.

^Nice try again MyJoe.

 Look at the verse you quoted - "Submit yourselves for the Lord's sake to every authority instituted among men: whether to the king, as the supreme authority"

 Submission in this context (and in the context of the entire chapter) is being obedient to the laws of the land. Indeed, doesn't it say submit to "every authority insituted among men"? And while among the body of believers (emphasizing the word body, which immediately indicates as Paul taught, that there should be union and equal honor among members) there is a collective leadership made up of deacons, elders, pastors, apostles etc. the final authority is God alone - not an alpha-male-I-call-all-the-shots-and-have-a-collection-of-christians-I'm-in-authority-over mog.

aletheia:

@MyJoe: And why a different version for each verse, I might ask?
Hebrews 13:17 in KJV is actually more explicit than the quoted Message version (a very poor translation in my opinion):

KJV: Hebrews 13:17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

And why does the WYC translate presbuteros as priest when it actually means elder? I fear that's a translation with an agenda.

Brilliant!

I actually omitted to look up Heb 13:17 in the KJV - now, the Bible does admonish Christians to submit to pastors. I know that verse doesn't say "pastor" but the leaders of the church are pastors or priests.

On my use of different translations, you are right to evince a slight discomfort with that practice. I, too, like to stick to the NIV, having first taken out time to do some comparisons and then some background check on its translators. But virtually ALL Christians writers tend to use translations that support whatever it is they are pushing in that instance. I guess I tried it for once.

Many, if not most translations, do have some agenda. Take that one up there about paying double money! But my point was to highlight the amount of regard Christians are required to give to their leaders, that is, pastors and priests. I believe JeSoul's position in not in near perfect sync with the Bible.

JeSoul:

^Nice try again MyJoe.

 Look at the verse you quoted - "Submit yourselves for the Lord's sake to every authority instituted among men: whether to the king, as the supreme authority"

 Submission in this context (and in the context of the entire chapter) is being obedient to the laws of the land. Indeed, doesn't it say submit to "every authority insituted among men"? And while among the body of believers (emphasizing the word body, which immediately indicates as Paul taught, that there should be union and equal honor among members) there is a collective leadership made up of deacons, elders, pastors, apostles etc. the final authority is God alone - not an alpha-male-I-call-all-the-shots-and-have-a-collection-of-christians-I'm-in-authority-over mog.

You seem to be of the view that submission here should be in a democratic manner, that is, with separation of powers and all. More like what you have in the Anglican Church than what obtains in Catholicism. You will recall the first century Christians did submit to the council in Jerusalem. I suppose your disagreement then is not whether there should be submission per se, but the manner this authority to receive submission is exercised - whether autocratically or democratically.

MyJoe:
You will recall the first century Christians did submit to the council in Jerusalem. I suppose your disagreement then is not whether there should be submission per se, but the manner this authority to receive is exercised - whether autocratically or democratically.

  MyJoe the bible tells christians to submit to one another out of love - submission in itself is not the problem and has never been the problem and I don't think I've stated otherwise when my post is taken in its entirety.

  The problem is the latest remix of this otherwise noble call, which has been modified to mean "submit to the pastor" "obey whatever he says" "he is in authority over you" "you're not a legitimate christian if there's no pastor over you". The leadership submits to the flock just as much as the flock submits to the leadership - this is the body of Christ - and God is the authority over them all.

@MyJoe:

In light of your submission "directive" above, take a look at the following from the NIV

"The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses seat. So you must obey them and do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach. They tie up heavy loads and put them on men's shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them. Everything they do is done for men to see: they make their phylacteries wide and the tassels on their garments long; they love the place of honor at banquets and the most important seats in the synagogues; they love to be greeted in the marketplaces and to have men call them Rabbi. But you are not to be called Rabbi, for you have only one Master and you are all brothers. And do not call anyone on earth "father", for you have one Father, and he is in heaven. Nor are you to be called teacher, for you have one Teacher, the Christ. The greatest amongst you will be your servant. For whomever exalts himself shall be humbled and whoever humbles himself shall be exalted" Matt 23: 2 - 12

[1] We are told the spirit behind "Masters" in Religion is the Pharisee Spirit (white washed sepulchres, in more descriptive terms)
[2] They DEMAND submission much as you seem to expect
[3] Their burdens are heavy and thus not of God
[4] Their desire is to have adulation (plus of course Private jets nowadays)
[5] They want to be "Rabbi"

[6] You, Children are not Rabbis - do not consider yourself so. Only God is your Rabbi
[7] I'm sure MyJoe knows the functions and supervisory roles given to "fathers" by God
[8] You are also not teachers and if that be so, cannot expect submission because you're all learning. Submit only to God
[9] The greatest are "servants" - because they serve and NOT because they are submitted to

MyJoe, Jesus was speaking to His Apostles AND the crowds! In effect, any that would listen to him.  Your quotes favoring submission have been addressed by Jesoul but let me add this - submit by allowing the elders speak first but like Elihu with Job and his friends, realize that wisdom and truth can come from anyplace in your midst. Which is why plurality of elders was emphasized - it allowed for greater likelihood of truth coming from the "top" where the mature were. The "Elihu" connection I would address as Jesoul's last point - submission of both sides to the other in love IN THE SEARCH FOR TRUTH.

JeSoul:

The problem is the latest remix of this otherwise noble call, which has been modified to mean "submit to the pastor" "obey whatever he says" "he is in authority over you" "you're not a legitimate christian if there's no pastor over you". The leadership submits to the flock just as much as the flock submits to the leadership - this is the body of Christ - and God is the authority over them all.

^^You didn't complete it: "Your pastor is your covering" How about that one? Blasphemous if you ask me.

@MyJoe: Christ's instruction is balanced.

"The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses seat. So you must obey them and do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach" Notice the but part.
That aside; God has instituted authority over the church and bids us obey them. But that obedience must be in line with the scriptures.
Heb 13:7. Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation.
Then goes on to tell us not to "Be not carried about with divers and strange doctrines" Before
Heb 13:17. Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

So the context of Heb 13:17 looking at the preceding verse 7 down is the church.

lol.  Funny topic.   It's really interesting to note that the "Christians" on NL are those who nuclearboy has formed some kind of alliance with.   Those he would listen to if he needs "sincere Christian counsel".  "sincere" sounds more like "stuffs that go down well with me".   I think the title of this thread is misleading.   Should be, "Nuclearboy's Personally Endorsed List of NL Christians".    The segregation that goes on within even same religion these days is something.

And it's really interesting to note as well that most of these "Christians" either hop from one church to another, or fellowship in some surreptitious location with a nameless group.

Purist:

And it's really interesting to note as well that most of these "Christians" either hop from one church to another, or fellowship in some surreptitious location with a nameless group.

Aren't you talking out of both sides of your mouth? You probably insist on the unity of the Body of Christ and yet here you are demanding denominational appellations from people who have stated that they are not denominational. Surreptitious doesn't necessarily mean bad: for that is how the church worships in places like Saudi Arabia and China. Nameless by the conventions of men but certainly known to the Heavenly Father who "sees in secret and rewards openly".

@MyJoe: The compulsory submission is where the problem lies. The real "submission" should be inward and faith-borne. From the recesses of your heart, in love. And not because you will be ostracized or "cursed" by the MOG if you don't.

Jesus never forced anyone to follow him. The disciples who agreed to, they were already more willing to follow him, inward-hearted-ly.

And not like these "MOG"s that try to place themselves on Christ's pedestal.

My 2 cents.

If God has placed in the body of Christ;pastors, teachers etc and commands that we should submit to them.

Hebrews 13:17 (KJV)
17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that[ is] unprofitable for you.

Hebrews 13:17 (AMPLIFIED)
17 Obey your spiritual leaders and submit to them[ continually recognizing their authority over you], for they are constantly keeping watch over your souls and guarding your spiritual welfare, as men who will have to render an account[ of their trust].[ Do your part to] let them do this with gladness and not with sighing and groaning, for that would not be profitable to you[ either].

Hebrews 13:17 (message)
17 Be responsive to your pastoral leaders. Listen to their counsel. They are alert to the condition of your lives and work under the strict supervision of God. Contribute to the joy of their leadership, not its drudgery. Why would you want to make things harder for them?

Hebrews 13:17 (NIV)
17 Have confidence in your leaders and submit to their authority, because they keep watch over you as those who must give an account. Do this so that their work will be a joy, not a burden, for that would be of no benefit to you.

The simple truth is ; if you don't have a pastor whom you are submitted to, you are simply a very dangerous spiritual vagabond. (no offence pls). Just like the sons of sceva. In act 19:13

@Joagbaje:

1. "Those who submit to no one"?What about the pastor called Jesus Christ? Every Christian submits to him and thats the main requirement.

2. By your reasoning, if there are tenancy laws dealing with submission to a landlord's terms of agreement, but that landlord is subject in turn to the Federal Government, AND I own my own house BUT i am totally in line with the Federal Government, then I am dangerous because I choose not to leave my house and go and enrich a potbellied greedy landlord next door, holing up in a face-me-lets-face-penury while the landlord and agents smile to the bank?

Analogies are odious but here it shows why your logic appears skewed, IMHO.

@Joagbaje: And the Bible verses? Your pastor or teacher that you submit to, need not be one of the self-acclaimed gods of Christian business empires, or one of their subgods.

The Christian walk is independent, and your own pastor could be your friend, your brother, even your daughter, sorry. And they dont need to be leading a congregation.

Each person being pastored knows their own pastor. Duh.

There are pastors who God has committed other people to, and are full time scientists, say, or something. When not in the research lab, they meet people, then they get down on their knees and shepherd lives for Christ's sake.

@Purist:

In a manner, you are right - these people "go down well with me".

When I need Counsel, Sir, I do not seek
[1] self serving people
[2] People who've placed themselves on a pedestal above others
[3] vultures seeking carcasses to eat (i.e. profiteering)
[4] Eisegesis

What I want is truth!

@nuclearboy, alatheia, InesQor
I share your view on this matter of submission. I only set out to point out that JeSoul’s initial position, namely that the Bible did not mandate submission to pastors and church leaders, was not an accurate echo of the Bible’s position on the matter and was, therefore, thoroughly misguided. The Bible mandates submission. Unfortunately the verses hardly qualify this submission, but then one should not be a literalist and conclude that the writers of those verses had unqualified loyalty to “MOGs”, even when they derail, in mind; since Paul warned the Galatian Christians not to become slaves of men or let anyone rule their religious lives.

The problem is that the making of fine distinctions is highly subjective and can be way too much trouble. That is why the vast majority of Christians will stick to these verses and submit all the way.

MyJoe:

@nuclearboy, alatheia, InesQor
I share your view on this matter of submission. I only set out to point out that JeSoul’s initial position, namely that the Bible did not mandate submission to pastors and church leaders, was not an accurate echo of the Bible’s position on the matter and was, therefore, thoroughly misguided. The Bible mandates submission. Unfortunately the verses hardly qualify this submission, but then one should not be a literalist and conclude that the writers of those verses had unqualified loyalty to “MOGs”, even when they derail, in mind; since Paul warned the Galatian Christians not to become slaves of men or let anyone rule their religious lives.

The problem is that the making of fine distinctions is highly subjective and can be way too much trouble. That is why the vast majority of Christians will stick to these verses and submit all the way.

Oh dear. Perhaps MyJoe if you had taken my entire post you would not have made that incorrect conclusion.

JeSoul:

  Few things tick me off more than this.

  When I'd go to different churches to do music/poetry, I'd get asked all the time by mostly elderly folks (Godbless them) "who's your pastor?" "who's spiritual headship are you under?". The question always annoys me. It insinuated 2 things:
  1- that if a christian is not "under the authority" of some pastor somewhere they are somehow illegitimate christians. And
  2- that I must've acquired the scriptural knowledge that I displayed from a pastor. As if it were impossible to learn by studying the bible for oneself.

Please where is the scriptural directive that demands the submission of christians to pastors?

   in light of the preceeding points 1 & 2 - I proceeded to ask the question - where is the scriptural directive for submission in the context of the points 1 & 2. You then posted verses, to which I said no they don't speak of submission in regards to points 1 & 2. Perhaps if I had articulated myself better (or you hadn't plucked out just the last question out of context) this would've been avoided.

On second read through my last posts, I can see how I may have come off as saying "no submission to church leadership whatsoever". So MyJoe no vex, I was writing from a point of view I understood but may not have translated across efficiently. So my apologies on that. Cheers.

@jesoul
Could you kindly post 1peter 5:1-6 for the benefit of all readers of this thread, I believe it gives a balanced view to the whole debate of submission. Would have posted it myself but I am currently using a hand held device.

^how much are you paying me? 

1 Pet 5: 1-6 "To the elders among you, I appeal as a fellow elder, a witness of Christ's sufferings and one who also will share in the glory to be revealed: Be shepherds of God's flock that is under your care, serving as overseers—not because you must, but because you are willing, as God wants you to be; not greedy for money, but eager to serve; not lording it over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock. And when the Chief Shepherd appears, you will receive the crown of glory that will never fade away.
Young men, in the same way be submissive to those who are older. All of you, clothe yourselves with humility toward one another, because,
   "God opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble." Humble yourselves, therefore, under God's mighty hand, that he may lift you up in due time.

  I think more than anything, submission is a two-way street. And I think also think that its not so much submitting to the person but rather the word of God that the person speaks or the godly wisdom they demonstrate.

@JeSoul
I see your viewpoint. Thanks.

I think the issues involved in "personal relationship", "fellowship", their places in the light of the Bible, whether fellowship is mandatory and whether it is to be equated with membership of a particular denomination are nuanced.

aletheia:

Nameless by the conventions of men but certainly known to the Heavenly Father who "sees in secret and rewards openly".

Yeah right.

MyJoe no problem. Sorry if I sounded irritated yday. I've been running the same all-day experiment for 2 weeks and the darn thing is not working. Does anyone have any ideas on how to improve an acid-enhanced Protein A ELISA assay?

^^^ Simple - get DeepSight to have a talk with it and it'll behave!

JeSoul:

MyJoe no problem. Sorry if I sounded irritated yday. I've been running the same all-day experiment for 2 weeks and the darn thing is not working. Does anyone have any ideas on how to improve an acid-enhanced Protein A ELISA assay?

No probs, JeSoul. Maybe you should just let that stuff be for a day or two and then get back to it.

KunleOshob,
I strongly believe in leadership and authority.A blind man cannot be guided by another.
Sir,can you explain to me what "smite the shepherd and the flock shall be scattered"means.

Eagerly waiting for your response to ask my next question.

@kola
I have not stated an opinion, I merely asked jesoul to assist poþ a scripture which I believe gives a sound biblical position on the issue of sheperd an flock. Read 1 peter 5:1-6 again in context. That perfectly explains my position on the issue.