unlimited back n forth debate. chairman is at it again

tintingz:


If all the messages in the previous books were repeated in the Qur'an what then is the need of 2nd, 3rd, 4th book, can't there just be one book?

A perfect book does not need another version of it own because you will be contradicting the definition of perfect.

How does something serving as a reminder negate the definition of perfect?
Perfect:having all the required or desirable elements, qualities, or characteristics; as good as it is possible to be.
Reminder: reminder
/rɪˈmʌɪndə/
noun
a thing that causes someone to remember something.

Alhajiemeritus:

How does something serving as a reminder negate the definition of perfect?
Perfect:having all the required or desirable elements, qualities, or characteristics; as good as it is possible to be.
Reminder: reminder
/rɪˈmʌɪndə/
noun
a thing that causes someone to remember something.

You have a book that's perfect (free from faults and complete) then you wrote another entire book saying same thing, this time with different name. Why can't you use the existing one as reminder?

Does this even make sense to you?

It's either such person is suffering from a disorder or the book is not perfect in the first place.

And besides where can we find these books so that we can compare them.

Empiree:
unlimited back n forth debate. chairman is at it again

No red herring.

tintingz:
You have a book that's perfect (free from faults and complete) then you wrote another book saying same thing, this time with different name. Why can't you use the existing one as reminder?

Does this even make sense to you?

It's either such person is suffering from a disorder or the book is not perfect in the first place.

And besides where can we find these books so that we can compare them.

It makes perfect sense to me.
The Quran serving as a reminder is also sent to all mankind.
O mankind! We created you from a single (pair) of a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes, that ye may know each other. Verily the most honoured of you in the sight of Allah is the most righteous of you. And Allah has full knowledge and is well-acquainted. (The Noble Quran, 49:13)"

"Those who reject Faith, and die rejecting,- on them is God's curse,and the curse of angels, and of all mankind; (The Noble Quran, 2:161)"

"It is He Who has Created you [humans]; and of you [humans] are some that are unbelievers, and some that are believers: And Allah sees well all that ye do. He has created the heavens and the earth in just portions, and has given you [humans] shape, and made your shapes beautiful: and to Him is the final Goal. He knows what is in the heavens and on earth; and He knows what ye conceal and what ye reveal: Allah Knows well the (secrets) of (all) hearts. (The Noble Quran, 64:2-4)."





The previous books were sent to particular prophets and their people.



You want to get the previous books, I'll advise you start an archaeological research.
Perhaps you may be lucky.

tintingz:
No red herring.

not red herring. it is a fact

فَأَنذَرْتُكُمْ نَاراً تَلَظَّى - لاَ يَصْلَـهَآ إِلاَّ الاٌّشْقَى - الَّذِى كَذَّبَ وَتَوَلَّى ﴾

(Therefore I have warned you of a blazing Fire. None shall enter it save the most wretched. Who denies and turns away.) ﴿92:14-16﴾ Allah also says,)


﴿فَلاَ صَدَّقَ وَلاَ صَلَّى - وَلَـكِن كَذَّبَ وَتَوَلَّى ﴾

(So he neither believed nor prayed! But on the contrary, he belied and turned away.) ﴿75:31-32﴾ This means that he denied with his heart and turned away by his actions

Alhajiemeritus:

It makes perfect sense to me.
The Quran serving as a reminder is also sent to all mankind.
O mankind! We created you from a single (pair) of a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes, that ye may know each other. Verily the most honoured of you in the sight of Allah is the most righteous of you. And Allah has full knowledge and is well-acquainted. (The Noble Quran, 49:13)"

"Those who reject Faith, and die rejecting,- on them is God's curse,and the curse of angels, and of all mankind; (The Noble Quran, 2:161)"

"It is He Who has Created you [humans]; and of you [humans] are some that are unbelievers, and some that are believers: And Allah sees well all that ye do. He has created the heavens and the earth in just portions, and has given you [humans] shape, and made your shapes beautiful: and to Him is the final Goal. He knows what is in the heavens and on earth; and He knows what ye conceal and what ye reveal: Allah Knows well the (secrets) of (all) hearts. (The Noble Quran, 64:2-4)."





The previous books were sent to particular prophets and their people.

So the previous books were not absolute, yes?
How do they have exact same content with the Quran?

These books were for the middle eastern people what happened to other region and nations during those time?

You want to get the previous books, I'll advise you start an archaeological research.
Perhaps you may be lucky.

What?!, archaeological research??!

Have you done any yourself?

Empiree:
not red herring. it is a fact

Ok.

tintingz:


So the previous books were not absolute, yes?
How do they have exact same content with the Quran?

They have the same central idea and that is the oneness of Allah.

These books were for the middle eastern people what happened to other region and nations during those time?
Each group of people were sent a messenger with their own guidelines.

What?!, archaeological research??!

Have you done any yourself?

You are the one looking for previous books not me.

Alhajiemeritus:
You are the one looking for previous books not me.

Lol, so you just believe in these books despite no evidence?

didnt i talk am?

lukui:
yes they are books of Allah and they were revealed with perfection, but some of them were later adulterated by men, but the last one which is Al Quran was not and will never be adulterated and will remain in perfection till eternity!

Can you prove this claim using the Quran and the hadith and not what your imam told you at the mosque?

Oshin56:
how did you that Al Quran was adultered or you where there when the only prophet was receiving the message

Yes it was adulterated because Mohammed never asked his sahabas to compile his alleged 'revelations' as a single book. In fact Mohammed will be hell shocked if he wakes up and see what you guys call the Quran of today. Who created the chapters and the verses of the Quran? Who made it into 116 chapters? Who wrote al-fatiha, Mohammed, Allah or the sahabas (read al-fatiha Quran 1:1-7)? Why did Uthman ibn affan burn some copies (the original manuscripts) of the Quran? Did other sahabas agree with the 'uthmanic' version of the Quran? Are there verses in the Quran that were cancelled (sahih Bukhari 4:52:69, 3:31:170)? Why are there laws in the hadith (sunnan ibn majjah 1944) but were omitted in the Quran? etc.

Answer the questions above and tell me/us if the Quran has not been adulterated.

lukui:
ihdinna siratal mustaqim! hasbiyakallahu lai illaha illa allahu alayhi tawakaltu wahuwa robil arshil azim!!

Almighty God please come and save me. from these soul sucking disbelievers ooooo!!!!

in You (God ) only is my strength ooooo


God who asked me to even comment before, next time I will mind my business,

soul sucking devils!!!!!

I don't know that they plenty like this for nairaland chai CHINEKE Mere!!!!! (bikeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!)

'Tintinz' asked a valid question that requires a rational response and not an emotional outburst.

tintingz:
LMAO!!!

It seems this dude is a newbie or not frequent here.

I think he is new on nairaland; he is very much welcome to where religion is rationalised and dissected.

najib632:
The process of documentation of the Qur'an was detailed and thoroughly observed.
For more information about the process of documentation watch the video below:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LzSyGjsd9jY

Who supervised the documentation of the Quran and what audit measure did they put in place to avoid errors? How can you call a material perfect when the source documents were burnt? How can be reconcile what we have in the Quran against the original source documents that were written on stones, bones, camel skin, leaves, skins of some sahabas, etc. Was Mohammed around to supervise the final compilation and documentation of the Quran?

tintingz:
You have a book that's perfect (free from faults and complete) then you wrote another entire book saying same thing, this time with different name. Why can't you use the existing one as reminder?

Does this even make sense to you?

It's either such person is suffering from a disorder or the book is not perfect in the first place.

And besides where can we find these books so that we can compare them.

That's simple plagiarism and in this modern era Mohammed and his sahabas would be sued for copyright violation. You can't lift another man's work without authorization and still arrogant to call yours the 'most authentic from Allah'.

true2god:
That's simple plagiarism and in this modern era Mohammed and his sahabas would be sued for copyright violation. You can't lift another man's work without authorization and still arrogant to call yours the 'most authentic from Allah'.

Lol, We haven't even seen the other books of Allah they talk of, where are they?

And if they claim the books are the existing books of the Hebrews like the Bible, that's a failure.

true2god:
I think he is new on nairaland; he is very much welcome to where religion is rationalised and dissected.

I checked his registered date he has been long on Nairaland, maybe he doesn't come here frequently.

true2god:
Who supervised the documentation of the Quran and what audit measure did they put in place to avoid errors? How can you call a material perfect when the source documents were burnt? How can be reconcile what we have in the Quran against the original source documents that were written on stones, bones, camel skin, leaves, skins of some sahabas, etc. Was Mohammed around to supervise the final compilation and documentation of the Quran?

Watch the video of these questions are answered in it.

tintingz:
Lol, so you just believe in these books despite no evidence?

Awa lam yara allatheenakafaroo anna assamawati wal-ardakanata ratqan fafataqnahuma wajaAAalnamina alma-i kulla shay-in hayyin afalayu/minoon
Have they not ([one may] read a-wa-lam or a-lam) realised, [have they not] come to know, those who disbelieve, that the heavens and the earth were closed together and then We parted them, We made seven heavens and seven earths — or [it is meant] that the heaven was parted and began to rain, when it did not use to do so, and that the earth was parted and began to produce plants, when it did not use to do so; and We made, of water, [the water] that falls from the heaven and that springs from the earth, every living thing?, in the way of plants and otherwise: in other words, water is the cause of such [things] having life. Will they not then believe?, by affirming My Oneness?


This is one of the many evidences that abound.

tintingz:
How the Quran was documented and compiled can be found in the Hadiths not that there are independent source confirming this.

Look at this jaheel ex Muslim claiming he knows it all. Which other sources of information apart from Qur'an is a more authentic source?

tintingz:

It's like saying the prove of documentation of Harry Potter book can be found in Harry Potter book.

This is called circular reasoning fallacy..

You're very silly, are the hadith fairytales or documented narrations?

tintingz:


Humans are imperfect, you don't put your complete trust on humans.

If the messenger of Allah trusted them and Allah himself granted them paradise while they were still alive why will I not trust them?

Alhajiemeritus:

Awa lam yara allatheenakafaroo anna assamawati wal-ardakanata ratqan fafataqnahuma wajaAAalnamina alma-i kulla shay-in hayyin afalayu/minoon
Have they not ([one may] read a-wa-lam or a-lam) realised, [have they not] come to know, those who disbelieve, that the heavens and the earth were closed together and then We parted them, We made seven heavens and seven earths — or [it is meant] that the heaven was parted and began to rain, when it did not use to do so, and that the earth was parted and began to produce plants, when it did not use to do so; and We made, of water, [the water] that falls from the heaven and that springs from the earth, every living thing?, in the way of plants and otherwise: in other words, water is the cause of such [things] having life. Will they not then believe?, by affirming My Oneness?


This is one of the many evidences that abound.

Heaven and Earth were together and separated? What a fuckery!!! Is this an evidence? Kindly read the myths in the Qur'an .

You're just quoting from a fairybook it's like quoting a Disney book and said it's the evidence, maybe you should understand what an evidence is and besides this was not what I asked for.

tintingz:
- Ok, since book one is perfect(which means free from faults, completeness), what stops Allah from protecting it like he said in the Quran(he's omnipotent and omniscient) instead he had to send book two then book three then book four who knows book five may appear. Does this mean Allah didn't foresee the future?

The other books were sent to specific nations and they changing the commandments of Allah to suit their desires was part of their test which they mostly failed. Hahaha ex Muslim, you don't even know types of prophets. A prophet of Allah can be either a messenger (a prophet that comes with new Laws) or a prophet (a prophet that comes to support and remind people about the Laws revealed to the messenger). There are more than 4 books of Allah but these 4 are the major ones, so don't get it twisted. The Qur'an on the other hand unlike it's counterparts was sent to the whole of mankind and it's the Last revelation of Allah to mankind so the security of the message has to be very high. So that no one can challenge the Qur'an after reading it. Those who challenge the Qur'an have never read it cover to cover. They pick on specific verses that are not clear and emphasise on them when there's alot more that's clear.

tintingz:

- What makes you think the Quran is not distorted like every other previous books?

Bring a clear evidence of distortion and we will agree.

tintingz:

- Where are the books that was distorted by men, what evidence do you have for this claim?

We have several claims for this,
The books that were the distorted by men are being circulated everywhere, this is pretty obvious.
1. The several versions of the previous revelations and their obvious difference in addition, subtraction and replacements in them.

2. The errors in grammar and conditions, Allah is perfect, free from faults.

3. Polytheism in the books e.t.c

These are just some reasons.

najib632:
Look at this jaheel ex Muslim claiming he knows it all.

I never claim to know all. Please don't say what I didn't say.

Which other sources of information apart from Qur'an is a more authentic source?

Who authenticate it?

You're very silly, are the hadith fairytales or documented narrations?

Some Hadith narrations maybe historical(if there are archaeological evidence to support it) while some are myths.

Like Muhammad journey to heaven, that's a fairytale.

If the messenger of Allah trusted them and Allah himself granted them paradise while they were still alive why will I not trust them?

Wait, did Allah and Muhammad personally appear to you and told you they trusted them or you read it in a book(written by them) that said Allah and Muhammad trusted them.

Hope you know you're still committing circular reasoning fallacy.

... Double post.

true2god:
Who supervised the documentation of the Quran and what audit measure did they put in place to avoid errors? How can you call a material perfect when the source documents were burnt? How can be reconcile what we have in the Quran against the original source documents that were written on stones, bones, camel skin, leaves, skins of some sahabas, etc. Was Mohammed around to supervise the final compilation and documentation of the Quran?

Look I said watch the video all this your "Logical" questions were answered in it. This is an Islamic scholar, your greatest nightmare! Hahahahaha watch the video now, or are you afraid that your questions will be answered?

najib632:
The other books were sent to specific nations and they changing the commandments of Allah to suit their desires was part of their test which they mostly failed.

Did Allah beforehand know they will fail eventually?

Can you mention these specific nations and does these books contain same message?

Because the premise is, are the four books of Allah perfect?

Hahaha ex Muslim, you don't even know types of prophets. A prophet of Allah can be either a messenger (a prophet that comes with new Laws) or a prophet (a prophet that comes to support and remind people about the Laws revealed to the messenger).

This is non-sequitur, who's talking about messengers with you?

So there are "new laws" which means these books are not complete in the first place, yes?

And do you think the Quran need a new law?

There are more than 4 books of Allah but these 4 are the major ones, so don't get it twisted. The Qur'an on the other hand unlike it's counterparts was sent to the whole of mankind and it's the Last revelation of Allah to mankind so the security of the message has to be very high. So that no one can challenge the Qur'an after reading it. Those who challenge the Qur'an have never read it cover to cover. They pick on specific verses that are not clear and emphasise on them when there's alot more that's clear.

Ok now this getting ridiculous.

There are more than four books of Allah, where are all these books and why are they not mentioned in the Qur'an? You know I don't deal with empty claims.

And as for your second part, you mean the other books are not that important to Allah they don't need to be protected but the Quran is important?

I'm still not getting it, all these books all contain same messages but why is it that one is important?

Book A was sent to the jews to worship one God, book B was sent to mankind to worship one God, abeg what's the difference? Or why can't God just make book A the book sent to mankind instead of all this unnecessary stress and drama. It seems your God like drama.

Bring a clear evidence of distortion and we will agree.

Were you there when your Quran was rewritten and compiled?

We have several claims for this,
The books that were the distorted by men are being circulated everywhere, this is pretty obvious.
1. The several versions of the previous revelations and their obvious difference in addition, subtraction and replacements in them.

What's the name of this book oga?

2. The errors in grammar and conditions, Allah is perfect, free from faults.

What grammar and conditions?

Your Quran that sound like a nursery poem is better?

3. Polytheism in the books e.t.c

What polytheism in what book? You haven't mention the name of this book.

These are just some reqsons.

You're just giving empty reasons.

tintingz:
I never claim to know all. Please don't say what I didn't say.

If you don't know it all then why do come here with no evidence and sound critism like you did in your myths in the Qur'an? Do you think scholarship started in Islam just recently?

tintingz:


Who authenticate it?

The companions and their disciples did.

tintingz:

Some Hadith narrations maybe historical(if there are archaeological evidence to support it) while some are myths.

Like Muhammad journey to heaven, that's a fairytale.

Of course the myths are classified as da'eef(weak) or fabricated hadith. From which Imam or strong evidence do you have that this is a fairy tale or you are just assuming as usual? have you even read the hadith of Israa wal miraj?

tintingz:

Wait, did Allah and Muhammad personally appear to you and told you they trusted them or you read it in a book(written by them) that said Allah and Muhammad trusted them.

You know the answer.

tintingz:

Hope you know you're still committing circular reasoning fallacy.

How am I committing secular reasoning fallacy when the Hadith is a documentation? If you were talking about the Seerah then your point would have been a little valid because a Seerah is written by only one person. While a hadith is not and it is thoroughly criticised before it being accepted. You're the one who is committing "Availability Heuristic bias and confirmation bias".

najib632:
If you don't know it all then why do come here with no evidence and sound critism like you did in your myths in the Qur'an? Do you think scholarship started in Islam just recently?

I always provide source for my arguments.

The companions and their disciples did.

Ok, me and my friends believed in Harry Potter and we compiled Harry Potter' book and said it's authentic will you believe me?

This need an independent investigations or confirmation.

Of course the myths are classified as da'eef(weak) or fabricated hadith. From which Imam or strong evidence do you have that this is a fairy tale or you are just assuming as usual? have you even read the hadith of Israa wal miraj?

Do you have evidence Muhammad travelled to heaven?

And yes I've read the Hadiths of the journey.

You know the answer.

No I don't, tell me.

How am I committing secular reasoning fallacy when the Hadith is a documentation? If you were talking about the Seerah then your point would have been a little valid because a Seerah is written by only one person. While a hadith is not and it is thoroughly criticised before it being accepted. You're the one who is committing "Availability Heuristic bias and confirmation bias".

The Hadiths were written by people who believed in the Quran and Muhammad, there are no evidence to back up their claims, they can be sentimental in their claims.

Independent-investigations are needed.

tintingz:
Did Allah beforehand know they will fail eventually?

Yes of course, destiny is a complex algorithm of choices. They chose to fail and they did fail.

tintingz:

Can you mention these specific nations and does these books contain same message?

Persians or Sumerians, Babylonians, Indians, Hebrews e.t.c. Yes the message of monotheism and how to live lives of piety according to their environments and to remind them of the devil.

tintingz:

Because the premise is, are the four books of Allah perfect?

Why are you still asking about this when we have already said that they were perfect until they were modified.

tintingz:

This is non-sequitur, who's talking about messengers with you?

You're talking about the Holy books then definitely messengers have to be involved. And I enjoy exposing your ignorance about Islam(Hahahahaha) and religion as a whole.

tintingz:

So there are "new laws" which means these books are not complete in the first place, yes?

No dummy! New books for new situations dumb ass, I think this happened to only Hebrews and Indians, Allah knows best.

tintingz:

And do you think the Quran need a new law?

Qur'an is the final revelation, it fits all the scenarios from the time it was revealed till the end of the world.

tintingz:

Ok now this getting ridiculous.

There are more than four books of Allah, where are all these books and why are they not mentioned in the Qur'an? You know I don't deal with empty claims.

The books of Isiah A.S. are one example it is not mentioned in the Qur'an but it still exists and also the book of Zoroastra A.S are still around. The book of Ibrahim is now lost but it was mentioned in the Qur'an. And so are many books of many prophets It is an attribute of wise people to not waste words. So Allah being the Most Wise mentioned only what was relevant in the last revelation.

tintingz:

And as for your second part, you mean the other books are not that important to Allah they don't need to be protected but the Quran is important?

They're important of course, if you say they're not as important that means Allah does not take the people he sent the books to guide seriously. But the Qur'an is more important because it was sent to the whole of mankind and it's Laws are to be followed till the last day and also to expose the changes they made in those books.

tintingz:

I'm still not getting it, all these books all contain same messages but why is it that one is important?

Those books are sent to fit the lives of a particular set of people but Qur'an fits the lives of everyone, from the previous generation to this generation and to the last generation. Hence it's of highest importance.

tintingz:

Book A was sent to the jews to worship one God, book B was sent to mankind to worship one God, abeg what's the difference? Or why can't God just make book A the book sent to mankind instead of all this unnecessary stress and drama. It seems your God like drama.

Do you expect the cultures and traditions of everyone to be the same as others, when the world was not even near globalised then and people didn't even know how about the existence of others? And also why would a people need guidance when they're not astray?

tintingz:

Were you there when your Quran was rewritten and compiled?

How can I be there when I wasn't born then? And correction it wasn't "rewritten" it was only compiled.

tintingz:

What's the name of this book oga?

All the previous holy books that still exist all of them. Especially the Bible.

tintingz:

What grammar and conditions?

Do you not notice some of the explicit words used in the bible that's attributed to Suleiman A.S or the obvious grammatical errors of when you try to translate the bible back to Aramaic? Or the fairytales in the books of the Hindus about other gods and the Buddhists who replaced Allah with a man.

tintingz:


Your Quran that sound like a nursery poem is better?

Go and bring your own university poem and let us compare.

tintingz:

What polytheism in what book? You haven't mention the name of this book.

The Gospel, the books of the Hindus and Zoroastrians.

tintingz:

You're just giving empty reasons.

You don't want to understand them, and I promise you that immediately I notice you want to start playing around I will stop arguing with you.