Yoruba World Exploration:

http://www.raceandhistory.com/cgi-bin/forum/webbbs_config.pl?md=read;id=2305

googi:
Yoruba World Exploration:

http://www.raceandhistory.com/cgi-bin/forum/webbbs_config.pl?md=read;id=2305

I totally agree with Farouk Martin's premise in his piece above, one that points out clearly that Yoruba influence on the Nile Valley civilisation is a reality that can never be denied.

Small small o

Hmmnnn... History is interesting.

@TAO11 I have an issue to discuss with you.

TAO11:


First, I like to apologize for the impropriety of the manner in which my reply to your first comment on my submission about Ikedu (as well as my replies that follow on the same issue) was put. I have gone back to check the comment you had originally made in that regard, and I have seen that it is actually fair and not rude. My assumption was that it was coming from an Ubinu troll, and I wasn't having it at that time.

However, the position I maintain is that to dismiss Ikedu as non-existent in writing, you require more than a simple and lax allusion to the general muteness on it among academics and natives as well as more than a mere allusion to the secrecy in which it has generally been shrouded; especially when there are prominent scholars who have acknowledged it independent of each other (e.g Akinjogbin as well as C. O. Adepegba as I have mentioned).

Moreover, it is not anything surprising if no one at all in Ife today (or very few people if anyone at all) knows about Ikedu. And my reference to Bukola Oyeniyi, a faculty member in the Department of History at Missouri State University, was NOT ONLY to buttress the fact that he had met and worked with people who know it; but also to highlight the specific area of the Nigeria region occupied by those people.

In other words, the fact the North-East Yoruba border is the specific Yoruba region whose present occupants he identifies with some knowledge of Ikedu is actually quite mutually exclusive to the text been known by the present occupants of Ile-Ife, Osun State.

In fact, in the course of his discussion, I recall that he explained why his observation (on whom the present day custodians of ancient Ikedu tradition are) is what it is.

He identifies WHY these modern custodians are those of our kins in the North-Eastern Yoruba borders -- some of whom he noted to have worked with before. He identifies the REASON with the thesis that Ile-Ife, Osun State is not the first Ife settlement of the early "Yoruba" people.

He noted that there is ample persuasive evidence for the thesis that the earliest Ife was closer to the Niger-Benue confluence than it is to Ile-Ife, Osun State, a position which A. F. C. Ryder et al. also maintain.

A. F. C. Ryder in "The Ife-Benin Relationship" cites a certain "early Yoruba historian, J. O. George" who had noted that:

" 'The present town of Ile-Ife should not be taken as the original Ile-Ife ... the old Ile-Ife was much farther in the interior.' "

Ryder continues in reference to T. J. Bowen's "Adventures and Missionary Labours in Several Countries in the Interior of Africa (Charleston, 1857), pp.265" that:

"Forty years earlier the missionary Bowen was told of an Ife standing upon 'the sea'."

* "The sea" here as shown in the footnote of Ryder's work is a misnomer by the ancient inland people for the "great" Niger and Benue rivers of the interior

In fact, the submission of Professor Wande Abimbola that there are references in odu ifa to seven different Ife, the present one being the last also appear to corroborate this thesis.

[see: W, Abimbola: "The Literature of the Ifa Cult", in Sources of Yoruba History, pp. 55]

More than that is the fact that there is an "Ife" in Idah whose head chief bears the title "Onu" which quickly calls to mind the "Ooni" title of Ile-Ife, Osun State.

In addition is also the fact that one of the most important deities in Idah is called "Olojo" which also quickly calls to mind another deity bearing the same name in Ile-Ife, Osun state; among other important commonalities.

[see: The Present State of Art Historical Research in Nigeria: Problems and Possibilities by Babatunde Lawal in The Journal of African History, Vol. 18, No. 2 (1977), pp. 210-211]

The foregoing goes to show that you were quite mistaken on the fact that you could not see the logic of how our people in the North-Eastern Yoruba borders could have had anything to do with the compiled historical tradition on Ife, called Ikedu.

Lastly, you could follow up with the Professor as I have suggested, to confirm from him whether or not he ever made the statements I attributed to him here.

I like to keep it short for now until I hear from you again.

Peace!

Cc:
Ollaxworld

OgboAto:


My G,

I apologize for coming out you in such an uncouth way. It does not only make my heart heavy to have acted that way, it is also embarrassing. I honestly just didn't like the 'tone' of your response to me, it was quite patronizing but that was that. My sibling, abeg nor vex. This Yoruba thing na both of us heritage & we both want it to be good. What is pertinent is to learn from each other & find a common ground.

You'd have to pardon me for saying this but I have most of the papers you are citing. I have a library of HSN journals from 1970 till date. This is apart from books from that period till date. I'm a PhD candidate in History [all my degrees are in History] & as such, I have come in & still very much in contact with awon Baba nla in the field who have added to me in everyway.

Having said that, I'd like to say that, I guessed your Okun/Yagba angle was based on the multiple Ife hypothesis but I'll ask if you've read Robin Horton's 'Ancient Ife: An Assessment'? Prof Obayemi was a topnotch scholar but his thesis was geared towards projecting his town, Ife Ijumu as the actual 'Ife' rather than the present Ile-Ife where archeological evidences are still being excavated. Horton's work examined the various theses on Ife & trashed each with evidences ranging from archeological to lexicostatiscal data - I could share it with you if you'd like. As rich as the work was, he also supported the East theory [Obayemi supported North East] in which he said Ife was located somewhat near the Igala but with river Niger or whatever running as a dividing line & it was from here migration took place. It was a hypothesis because excavations from Ife says that the present Ile-Ife has been occupied for at least 350BC.

As for Ifa, I'm an initiate of several awo including Ifa & I can authoritatively say that Ifa only mentions three Ife not seven & these Ife are: Ife Oodaye, where Oduduwa robbed the drunk Obatala & took up his role with 5 toes chicken & sand from snail shell; the Ife Ooyelagbo, the deluge period where everyone lived on Oke Ora under Oranfe's rule; & lastly, Ile-Ife under Obatala who was usurped by Oduduwa/Obameri group.

In conclusion, Baba Obayemi's argumrnt has been dismantled by new evidences both material & non-material. Likewise the pro-Bini scholars. And in essence, Ikedu could not have been hosted in Okun/Yagba axis because: 1. The Ikedu data is acclaimed to have focused on Ile-Ife; 2. Excerpts from Ikedu language shows it is closely related to Itsekiri/Ilaje not Okun/Yagba & 3. Obayemi's attempt at transposing Ile-Ife to Ife Ijummu has been dismantled.

Cheers.

It's okay my brother. Getting angry (sometimes even unjustifiably), I believe, is one of those things that make us the fallible humans that we are. I am glad, however, that we didn't overblow it and that we both moved on from it.

Now to the actual issues:

Regarding your collection of academic papers and correspondences and your academic inclination more generally, I must tell you that I am very proud of you and you should not be apologetic. The future of the Yorubas gets brighter! I beseech God to bestow you with sufficient will and resources to complete the task ahead.

Regarding the Multiple Ife hypothesis, no I haven't read Robin Horton's "Ancient Ife: An Assessment", but I have just downloaded it in line with your suggestion and I will dive into it.

However, as much as Horton "trashed" some other Ifès (including Professor Ade Obayemi's Ifè-Ijumu which I never claimed to support), I am glad that you noted that he nevertheless upheld the thesis that Ile-Ife, Osun State was not the earliest Ife, but rather that a location in the Igala region is the earliest Ife.

His conclusion, rather than contradict my position, actually corroborates and strengthens it in a very precise and emphatic manner. Notice that my argument was that "the earliest Ife was closer to the Niger-Benue confluence than it is to Ile-Ife, Osun State", and I specifically mentioned the town called "Idah"(which actually is the capital of the Igala kingdom) within which, I noted, that there is still a place called Ifè whose head chief still bears the title "Onu" and which one of its most important deities still bears the name "Olojo".

Moreover, contrary to what you seem to believe, the fact that finds from archaeological excavation at different sites in Ile-Ife Osun State place human activities in the region to not later than 350 BCE actually does not contradict the submission of Ryder, Horton, among others that the earliest Ife was closer to the Niger-Benue confluence than it is to Ile-Ife Osun State.

This specific date from the Ile-Ife archaeological finds only tells us about human activities in Ile-Ife, Osun State. It obviously tells us absolutely nothing about human activities in the Igala region or in the Niger-Benue confluence more generally. There is, therefore, absolutely no basis (in respect of this date alone) to do a comparison of which is earlier between Ile-Ife, Osun State and Idah (for example) in terms of earliest human activities.

Regarding the Ifá corpus, I must tell you that I am very much aware of the version that mentions three Ifè namely: Ifè-Oodaye -- the land of the autochthonous which is said to have been wiped off by a flood with its survivors forming the nucleus of the second Ifè viz. Ife-Ooyelagbo. Ifè-Ooyelagbo was said to have lasted until a period when some immigrants settled and lived with the autochthonous giving rise to the third Ifè called Ile-Ife. I am aware of this.

However, notice that in my reference to "seven different Ife, the present one being the last" in "odu ifa" , I wasn't simply citing myself as the authority, I was citing Professor Wande Abimbola's "The Literature of the Ifa Cult", in Sources of Yoruba History, pp. 55".

Professor W. Abimbola is a Professor of Yoruba language and literature and a former Vice-Chancellor of the University of Ile-Ife (now OAU). More importantly, in this context, is the fact that he is himself a "Babalawo". Not just that, he is the Àwísẹ Awo Àgbáyé installed in 1981 by the then Ooni of Ife, Oba Okunade Sijuwade, on the recommendation of a conclave of Yoruba Babalawos like himself.

In light of the foregoing background, the issue before us then appears to become one of choosing between your own authority and the authority of a Professor of Yoruba language and literature who himself is the Àwísẹ Awo Àgbàyé. I bet you that every single objective researcher will choose and align with the Àwísẹ's version that there were indeed seven different Ife in the Ifá literary corpus and not just three.

However, my personal conciliatory view is that both versions are correct.

My view has as its basis the fact that the numbers "three" and "seven" are not only considered sacred and mystical in many ancient cultures, it is known that ancient cultures such as the Greeks and the Romans among others often use the number "seven" to sometimes convey an undefined or indefinite idea of plurality viz. "many", "several", etc. and not necessarily literally. It is similar to today's English speaking people's use of the number "a hundred and one", etc. The idea is not necessarily to capture and convey the literal sense, but to simply say "many" or "several".

But however it swings, whether a literal "three", a literal "seven", or just simply "many", we actually seem to have just agreed that there have been other Ifè before the present one, and this theferore offers some explanation to the general obliviousness of present-day occupants of Ile-Ifè, Osun State to the Ìkédu tradition.

Regarding your final comment that "Ikedu could not have been hosted in Okun/Yagba axis" because -- as you claimed -- "excerpts from Ikedu language shows it is closely related to Itsekiri/Ilaje, not Okun/Yagba":

It suffices at this point to give you the benefit of doubt that you actually did indeed hear or read from certain scholar (s) on Yoruba history that Ikedu is related to the Itsekiri/Ilaje axis and not the Okun/Yagba axis. But I personally believe that you misheard or misunderstood them.

But I won't stop at just the foregoing, I will quote you the exact words of Bukola Oyeniyi who is currently a Professor of African History (with a specialization in Yoruba History) and faculty member in the Department of History at Missouri State University.

The following are his exact words in Yoruba language (with one or two English interjections) in the discussion I was talking about earlier, an audio recording of which I still have:

"Ní ilẹ̀ Yoòbá aní àkọọ́lẹ̀, that is, writing ... ìkẹ́du ni wọ́n pèé ní Ilé Ifẹ̀."

He continues after digressing into some other details that:

"Ìkẹ́du tí àún sọ yìí, ní area Kogí, Yàgbà, àti àwọn èyàan wa tín bẹ ní ibẹ̀-un -- Yoòbá ni wọ́n -- àwọn kan wà tí wọ́n gbọ́ èdè-un. Mo ti bá ọ̀pọ̀lọpọ̀ wọn ṣe-iṣẹ́ rí, tí wọ́n gbọ́ èdè, tí wọ́n mọ àṣà, tí wọ́n mọ ẹ̀kọ́ tí ìkẹ́du dá lé lórí."

In sum, I am not simply putting forward my guess when I mentioned the North-Eastern Yoruba axis, I was relying on a specific expert statement from an academic in the field who have personally met and worked with people who understand the intricacies of Ikedu tradition.

You could reach him through his email address (BukolaOyeniyi@MissouriState.edu) if you wish to confirm from him whether or not he ever made the foregoing statements I have attributed to him.

Also, I wouldn't mind if you could provide me with the reference to your claim that the axis is not Kogi/Yagba but Itsekiri/Ilaje, thanks.

Please note that the email address I gave here is available to the public on the University's webpage.

With regards!

Cc:

Amujale
Googi
Kunmiiii
Oduademonest
Ollaxworld

It will be very enlightening if more of you can comment specifically on Yoruba World Exploration indicating Oduduwa before Christ.

Thanks so much Awujale.

Asinwin, se o o mo pe iya e gbodo sa laro nigba to ti di abugije? Aro ni iwo gan ma gbehin si.

I've had the best of laids and now have a dedicated one, so you are probably talking about yourself.

oduademonest:



Baba n la sa laro ni were yi sha

It seems like you enjoy trolling . . . I hope you find what you are looking for.

I hope you get laid before it is too late. . . It will do you a world of good.

Am I mincing words?

Nonsense!

What has any of these got to do with Ooni is Abore? Why are their names not as famous as the Oyomesi and the rest who had total control of Yoruba political structure? It's because Yoruba had monarch before the arrival of Oduduwa. So it doesn't matter how many times you try to twist it, he's still an Abore.

Truth changes not!

Oduduwa didn't found Ile Ife but organized it to be the holy land, Oduduwa
Alaafin is the head of all oba alade, Ooni doesn't even have a real crown and will never be a real oba, Alaafin is the only one who can crown general Yoruba title like Aareonakakanfo among others, the rest are just playing.

If Yoruba had maintained the original tradition of Alaafin as the head monarch and Ooni as the Abore and not try to upstage Alaafin for Ooni just because they feel Abore is archaic, you won't see Oba Olugbo calling himself the paramount ruler. If it's good for Alaafin, then it must he good for Ooni, even the Aareonakakanfo will soon be oba.

The current Alaafin is old and quiet but a new Alaafin won't allow any of this, same reason the former Ooni didn't get along with Alaafin because he knew any Ooni that converted a shrine to a palace is a fraud, and this is the problem Yoruba are going to deal with and understand that, it's never going to pan out well with the idea of gbi gbe omo oba f'osun.

OgboAto:


You are so fixated on this Abore nonsense that you do not see how badly you are embarrassing yourself.

Ife is structured in a pyramid way, make I show you:

Ooni
Isoro Agba Ife

The Isooro were the Kings of each autonomous communities that preceded Ife. The Kings of these autonomous towns are the deified Orisa we have today. The Isoro are 201 in number but 16 of them are the foremost. Their obligations are to head their autonomous towns & head the festival, initiation, procession & whatever has to do with the deity that started their clan.

Agba Ife are also autochthonous people who supported the creation & developed the administration of Ife. Each of them is tied to an Orisa.

The Ooni [& the four ruling houses] is the only clan that is not derived from any Orisa & is not tied to any Orisa. Instead, the Ooni has an 'Abore' in the person of Obadio who is the Chief priest of Oduduwa & the head of Oduduwa's section of Ife called Idio.

P.S: I didn't mention the Modewa because they are of servant progeny who serve in the palace but are tied to provifing services to Oduduwa/Oranfe & Obatala/Ifa.

Dumb flippiruu!

Ile Ife is nothing more than a religious town like Vatican, Makkah or Jerusalem. It has nothing to do with general political structure of Yorubaland, Oyo has that stock, lock and barrel. Nothing will ever change that.

Oduduwa didn't found Ile Ife but organized it to be the Orisa headquarters and holy land, Oduduwa himself was an Abore who met king's in Ife.

Oyo Oba is what 'Yoruba` name came from and not Oduduwa. Yoruba are not descendants of Oduduwa just some Yoruba, and if any Yoruba are slaves then it must be the descendants of Oduduwa because he was the late comer. The Yoruba tribal marks were given to identify their own clans.

At least Alaafin is using traditional materials on his crown not plastic and sequences from barbie doll skirt Ooni has on his head and walking stick. Fake and fraud are Ooni's hallmark, what a joke of Abore.
Alaafin is the head of all oba alade, Ooni doesn't even have a real crown and will never be a real oba, Alaafin is the only one who can crown general Yoruba title like Aareonakakanfo among others, the rest are just playing.

If Yoruba had maintained the original tradition of Alaafin as the head monarch and Ooni as the Abore and not try to upstage Alaafin for Ooni just because they feel Abore is archaic, you won't see Oba Olugbo calling himself the paramount ruler. If it's good for Alaafin, then it must he good for Ooni, even the Aareonakakanfo will soon be oba.

The current Alaafin is old and quiet but a new Alaafin won't allow any of these, same reason the former Ooni didn't get along with Alaafin because he knew any Ooni that converted a shrine to a palace is a fraud, and this is the problem Yoruba are going to deal with and understand that, it's never going to pan out well with the idea of gbi gbe omo oba f'osun.

OgboAto:



'Ignant' much like your Alaafin/Oyo peoples?

Mention just 1 Orisa that Ooni is in charge of, just one or better still, mention one Orisa & I'll tell you the clan of that Orisa as well as the facebook page of the head or a son of that clan for verification. Heck, you could even come to Ife to verify.

You & your ilks have bandied this nonsensical story for years without recourse to how Ife is structured.

If anyone is a slave then it should be Alaafin. Eru, slave, lon ko ila. In Yorubaland, slaves are the ones with the type of marks found in the Alaafin family. Read C.O Adepegba's work. Also, if any King should be regarded as inferior in the entire Yorubaland then it is the Alaafin's throne: 1. The empire it controlled crumbled & was chased like a bitch to his friend's town which he usurped & sidelined his friend's family. It is like saying the Queen of Britain is superior to Arab Kings because Britain once ran the whole world or say the Roman King is superior to British Queen because Roman was colonized Britain. 2. Alaafin has no fecking crown! There are 16/32 Kings with original crown, Alaafin has 'zero' crown. In fact, the throne has a 'crown' made of sese efun [white beads] which is sacred to Obatala; who knows if Alaafin was the son of the slave woman who became a votive of Obatala?

Feck outta here. Ife is still the head of all Yoruba towns & the Ooni is still the head of all Oba Alade in Yorubaland in Nigeria & in the diaspora.

You are welcome.

wowcatty:
Am I mincing words?

Nonsense!

What has any of these got to do with Ooni is Abore? Why are their names not as famous as the Oyomesi and the rest who had total control of Yoruba political structure? It's because Yoruba had monarch before the arrival of Oduduwa. So it doesn't matter how many times you try to twist it, he's still an Abore.

Truth changes not!

Oduduwa didn't found Ile Ife but organized it to be the holy land, Oduduwa
Alaafin is the head of all oba alade, Ooni doesn't even have a real crown and will never be a real oba, Alaafin is the only one who can crown general Yoruba title like Aareonakakanfo among others, the rest are just playing.

If Yoruba had maintained the original tradition of Alaafin as the head monarch and Ooni as the Abore and not try to upstage Alaafin for Ooni just because they feel Abore is archaic, you won't see Oba Olugbo calling himself the paramount ruler. If it's good for Alaafin, then it must he good for Ooni, even the Aareonakakanfo will soon be oba.

The current Alaafin is old and quiet but a new Alaafin won't allow any of this, same reason the former Ooni didn't get along with Alaafin because he knew any Ooni that converted a shrine to a palace is a fraud, and this is the problem Yoruba are going to deal with and understand that, it's never going to pan out well with the idea of gbi gbe omo oba f'osun.

Wowcatty didrin to n dato

In the hierarchy of things, Alaafin is not even #2, he is #3.


https://aremuforlife./2018/02/18/supremacy-of-the-ooni-of-ife/

For the moment, let me turn over to you, extracts from the Government Gazette of 28 February, 1903, revealed that there was a dispute between the Akarigbo of Sagamu and the Elepe of Epe as to the latter’s right to wear a crown. The then governor, Sir William Macgregor, sent his special hammock to Ooni Olubuse I (father of the present Ooni), to carry him from Ife to Ibadan from where he took a train to Lagos. At the council meeting, Sir Macgregor told the Ooni that “he had received a telegram from the Alake of Abeokuta who requested to be advised of the time the Ooni was leaving Lagos for Ife. The Alake expressed a desire to arrange to meet the Ooni outside the walls of Abeokuta in order to pay him respect.”

Ooni’s Power
The governor then informed the council of the purpose of the meeting – “the crown case of Elepe of Epe.”

The Gazette continues: “But before introducing this question, His Excellency informed the council that he had heard with great sorrow that the town of Ogbomoso was burnt and that 60 persons, including the Lemomu, perished in the conflagration. The governor had sent to the Baale to express his sorrow and also 100 pounds for distribution among the people in their distress.”

Having heard the main question, the Ooni was reported in the Gazette as saying: “A man should speak only what he knows to be true. Only the Akarigbo and the Awujale have the right to wear crowns; even if the Akarigbo is a chicken, he is the head of his government and is entitled to wear a crown”. But the Akarigbo and the Awujale had their crowns originally from Ife. I had only been a few days as Ooni before the present Akarigbo was installed. To knock out the claim of Elepe, the Ooni went on. Besides Akarigbo and the Awujale, I do not know of the rights of anyone else in Ijebu to wear a crown. No one on the face of the earth has power to give the Elepe of Epe a crown, unless the Ooni of Ife. Even the Alake of Abeokuta has not this power.
“THE ALAKE OF ABEOKUTA AND THE ALAAFIN OF OYO HAD THEIR CROWNS ORIGINALLY FROM THE OONI OF IFE”.

The following are the rulers to whom crowns have been given by the Ooni of Ife:
“The Alake of Abeokuta, the Olowu of Owu (Abeokuta), the Alaafin of Oyo, the Oba Ado, the Osemawe of Ondo, the Awujale of Ode (Ijebu), the Alara of Ara, the Ajero of Ijero, the Orangun of IIa, the Owa of Ilesa, the Alaye of Efon, the Ore of Olure, the Akarigbo of Remo (Ijebu), the Alaketu of Ketu, the Elekole of Ikole, the Olowo of Owo, the Ewi of Ado, the Oloko of Oko (Abeokuta) the Alagura of Agura (Abeokuta)”.


This piece settles a number of issues which the sons of Odu’a must now reconcile in present day events in Odu’a land. Well, the Gazette goes on: “The Ooni further explained that on the occasion of original assignment of a crown, a fee of 50 pounds (then one hundred naira) at least was paid to the Ooni of Ife. This fee was demanded only from the first ruler of the territory for which the crown was assigned. His successors are not again called upon to pay the fee. “But each new ruler on succeeding his father is required to announce his assumption of the crown to Ife, and at the same time to send presents and offerings for an auspicious reign.”

Some great rulers, for example, the Alaafin of Oyo on succeeding to the crown, paid over again and the fee due to the Ooni of Ife. The Ooni also stated that some rulers sent him annual presents, and he showed the council the horse-tailed staff which was sent to him by the Alaafin of Oyo”. The last ruler that paid for his crown to the Ooni of Ife, was the Akarigbo of Sagamu.”

The governor asked the Ooni whether the Elepe could be permitted to wear a crown if he now paid the 50 pounds. The Ooni replied that all crowns are hereditary and that a man could not wear a crown. The power vested in the Ooni of Ife was to confirm the title to the right. All crowns are hereditary. There was in 1931 another dispute, this time it was over the seniority of the Ooni over the other obas and chiefs and there was also the issue of seniority as between the Alaafin (then called the Oloyo) and Oba of Benin (then called Oba Ado). The senior district officer, Captain HLM Butcher, sent minutes to the then commissioner, Western Province, in which he said, among other things:


REPORT THIS AD

“I have discussed this with several chiefs and old men in various places and the evidence seems to me to show clearly that the Ooni of Ife is the leading Yoruba chief.
CAPTAIN BUTCHER ALSO TOLD US: “THE OBA OF BENIN CALLED OBA ADO IS THE SECOND, WITH THE ALAAFIN CALLED OLOYO THE THIRD.”
He added for good measure, there is no definite order of precedence for the other obas… I have never heard that the Oba of Benin recognized the suzerainty of the Alaafin 300 or 400 years ago. I can see no reason why he should, as he was nearly always, be the more powerful of the two.” You can interpret or misinterpret these extracts, but the truth is contained in them.

2. Extracts from Ooni of Ife in Yoruba History by Dele Awoyinfa 1992 (Pages 67-71)
On the 23 February, 1903, the Ooni of Ife travelled to Lagos at the invitation of Governor William Macgregor and was lodged in a mansion at Tinubu Square, Lagos. On the following day, the governor met the Ooni of Ife and informed him that the purpose of the invitation was to have direct evidence from the Ooni of Ife as to who among the Obas of Yorubaland were entitled to wear a crown. The Ooni was scheduled to address the newly constituted Native Council which was divided on the issue as to whether a particular Chief at Ijebu was entitled to wear a crown. The Ooni’s statement of tradition was preceded by the customary greetings which included this passage from the Government Gazette of 28 February 1903.

The Ooni of Ife also said that it was only out of respect for his friend the Governor that he had broken through the tradition of the country and had come all the distance. Kabiyesi, the Ooni added that the other chiefs, when they heard of his departure from Ile-Ife, left their palaces and were living outside the walls and there they would remain until the returned, even the Alaafin of Oyo was now living outside the palace. The above was good example of rigid observation of traditional protocol by the Obas of Yorubaland who regarded themselves as the sons of Oduduwa (the Ooni of Ife). What it amounted to in tradition was the silent message of the governor in Lagos, that none of them would cooperate with him until their father returned safely to Ile-Ife. Living outside the palace, meant that life in the whole community was paralyzed. If an Oba for reason of tradition, had to stay outside his palace, all his chiefs and his Baales in the villages would do the same thing and all the Arabas (Chief Priests) would be busy making sacrifices to the 201 gods of Yoruba tradition. All markets in the towns and villages would cease to function normally.



The return of the Ooni would be greeted by gun salutes and jollification throughout the empire, all markets will resume normal commercial activities and each monarch will travel to Ife to pay homage and act as communication link between the subjects of each Kingdom and the Ooni, as to what transpired in Lagos. Governor Macgregor acceded to the request of the Ooni that no member of the native council could behold him face to face during the meeting and so, it was the voice of the Ooni that the meeting heard, as no inferior monarch or subject could behold the countenance of the Ooni without unpleasant consequences. [/b]After giving the names of those entitled to wear beaded crown, the following testimonies by members of the council were recorded at page 167 of the Government Gazette of 28 February 1903.

[b]1. Kasumu Giwa: Our fathers have told us that the Ooni of Ife has the power to issue crowns to the rulers of Yoruba.
2. Sufianu: If a crown does not come from Ife it is a worthless thing.
3. Sunmonu Bashorun: [b]It is the Ooni who gives crowns to all the rulers.
4. Oshonisi: (Chief native doctor): We cannot go beyond the Ooni’s statement.
5. Bale of Ebute-Metta (Egba): I stand by what the Ooni says.
6. Seidu Olowu: It is a truth widely known in Yoruba that the Ooni gives crowns. I am on the side of Ooni.
7. Ogbogun: It is well known that only the Ooni can issue crowns. Ife is the cradle of our race. All power and authority come from Ife.
8. Brimah Edu: If the Ooni had not come, we would all have talked nonsense.
9. Chief Musa Bababiokun: I agree with the Ooni in all what he said.
10. Chief Ashogbon: I agree with the Ooni.
11. Chief Soenu: All the rulers in Yoruba have their crowns from the Ooni.
12. Chief Ojora: It is a wonderful thing to see the Ooni at Lagos, Ooni is right.
13. Chief Aromire: His Excellency has done a great thing in bringing the Ooni down to Lagos. This is a wonderful thing. We never expected it, the Ooni is our greatest authority on the subject.
14. Chief Obanikoro: The Ooni has told us many important things today, which we never knew before. The Ooni is the only authority on the subject and we abide by his decision.
15. Chief Eletu: We are much thankful to the Governor for inviting the Ooni of Ife to Lagos. [/b]

On 20th July 1903, government minute from Ibadan confirmed that “The power of the Ooni to confer crowns is universal and unique in Yorubaland”. In 1984, the late Akarigbo of Remo, Oba Moses Awolesi Erinwole II, received the present Ooni of Ife, the Arole of Oduduwa, Oba Okunade Sijuwade Olubuse II, in his palace at Sagamu. In his welcome address, the Akarigbo who was over 90 years old at the time, declared that Oba Sijuwade who was considerably younger, was his father. He told his people that his father had arrived “Baba ti de”. In 1932, by a letter dated August 11, the then Awujale of Ijebuland wrote to the Ooni of Ife referring to him as “Dear father” and a most cordial reply of 17 October 1932 from the Ooni referred to the Awujale as “My dear son”.

In 1937, the first conference of all Obas of Yorubaland held at Oyo, The Ooni of Ife presided. In 1938, the second conference was held at Ife, the Ooni of Ife presided. In 1939, the conference was held in Ibadan, the Ooni of Ife presided.
In 1940, the conference of Yoruba Obas was held at Abeokuta, the Ooni of Ife presided. In 1941, the conference was held at Ijebu-Ode the Ooni of Ife presided.


In 1942, the conference was held at Benin City the Ooni of Ife presided. It was the custom at the conference for the Ooni of Ife to sit in the east and the other Obas on his right and left. The governor sat in the west with members of his staff, the governor would depart with his entourage and the Ooni would take control. The Royal dynasty of Yorubaland extends to Benin Republic, Warri and other parts of the world such as the Akoos, of Sierra Leone and the Bahians of Brazil. In the United States of America, a strong “resorgimento” in African culture and tradition has identified itself with Ife.

3. Extracts from “Ooni of Ife Through Time” An Exhibition of Ife King list (A publication of the National Museum Ile-Ife Osun State Nigeria 20th November 2000, Pages 8-9 ORANMIYAN THE 6TH OONI OF IFE

Oranmiyan, the youngest son of Oduduwa was said to have lived between 1200 and 1300 A.D. He was a great warrior and the husband of Moremi, the great heroine of Ife. The present day Benin dynasty was said to have been founded by him when the people of Benin sent to Oduduwa for a king to rule over them. Oranmiyan was sent and when he got to Benin, he organized and established a system of government as obtained in Ife. He married one of their daughters who gave birth to Eweka who became the first Oba of the present day Benin dynasty. Oranmiyan having completed the task left Benin and settled at Oyo where he also left a son, Ajaka on the throne as the Alaafin of Oyo. Thus, Oranmiyan was the only Ooni of Ife who had the honour of crowning two of his sons as the Oba of Benin and the Alaafin of Oyo respectively.


4. Extracts from Guardian Newspaper Friday 30th January 2009 “Politics Page” HOW A NEW YORUBA LEADER WILL EMERGE, BY OBA OKUNADE SIJUWADE
The Ooni spoke extensively on the political history of the Yorubas with particular reference to the raging leadership tussle between some prominent Yoruba Obas, especially in Oyo State where the Alaafin of Oyo, Oba Lamidi Adeyemi, the Olubadan of Ibadan, Oba Samuel Odulana and the Soun of Ogbomosho, Oba Jimoh Oyewumi, Ajagungbade III who have locked horns over some issues of Obaship supremacy.

Recalling the bickering between him and the Alaafin over the headship of the Council of Obas in the old Oyo State, the Ooni said contrary to beliefs in many quarters, the creation of Osun State from old Oyo State by the Babangida military administration in 1991 has nothing to do with Alaafin’s attempt to make the chairmanship seat of the then council of Obas rotational between him and the Alaafin.

Going deeper into the 19th century history of the Yorubas, the Royal father said the Oyo Empire which Alaafin is still hanging on to is no longer in existence because it collapsed and disintegrated in September 1793 under the Alaafin Aole and that the Alaafin also lost his beaded crown with fringe benefits during the episode and the crown was never re-consecrated by Ile-Ife up till today

For Alaafin to be claiming to be number one Oba in Yorubaland is a taboo which his fore bearers never attempted to do because they knew it would be an abomination, he stated. On the current raging crisis that is rocking the Oyo State council of Obas, the Ooni said he had been approached by millions of Yoruba people in Nigeria and abroad on the need to intervene, stressing that his stand at this moment is to make sure that there is peace.



7. THIS IS ILE-IFE BY OMOTOSHO ELUYEMI – A SHORT HISTORY OF ILE-IFE
Ile-Ife, Ooye Lagbo, More mope aye, Ibiti ojumo tii mowa, Oodaiye, Olori aiye gbogbo, Ile owuro.

Translated:
Ile-Ife, the city of the survivors where the dawn of the day was first experienced, Head of the whole universe, the land of the most ancient days.

The history of Ile-Ife is wrapped in a thick fog of myths and mythologies. And the above quotation aptly shows the appellations of the city. To the European foreigners during the early colonial days it was a “holy city”. To the descendents of Yoruba in other parts of the world, Ife was the original home of all things and the peoples.


To the Yoruba in Nigeria it was “the home of divinities and mysterious spirits”. To the Ife people themselves it was “Ilurun” that is, “the gateway to heaven”.
Ile-Ife and the Yoruba Nation:
Ile-Ife was the capital of the Yoruba Kingdom before the emergence of Oyo Empire. After the death of Oduduwa many of his children and grand-children left Ile-Ife to found other Yoruba Kingdoms.
Before the series of wars of the last century in the Yoruba country, Ile-Ife was the capital of an extensive kingdom. To this effect, C.H.H. Moseley, the acting Governor of the colony of Lagos in 1904 confirmed that “the Province of Ife lies adjacent to the colony of Lagos”.

8. ALAROYE – YORUBA MAGAZINE BACK PAGE 25TH NOVEMBER, 2013 – WHERE DID ODUDUWA COME FROM.

A man called the father of historians who lived around 484 to 424 BC (Before Christ) HERODOTUS wrote in one of his books that between 3000 and 1000 years BC (Before Christ) there were five nations in Africa and Ile-Ife was (is) one of them. Also Reverend Johnson said all YORUBA NATIONS throughout the world traced their SOURCE TO ILE-IFE.

The conclusion from this scenario is that ILE-IFE is the only TOWN known to be HOME FOR ALL the YORUBA’S and this is not in dispute whatsoever.

BY PRINCE JOHNSON ADETUNMBI ADEMILUYI (DIPLOMA – YabaTech, FCMA-uk, FCA)

REFERENCES:
1. Extracts from Government Gazette of 28th February 1903 by the Late Governor of Ogun State Chief Victor Olabisi Onabanjo – “Ayekooto” (First published in his life time and post humously published again in Nigerian Tribune of Saturday 25th April 2009).

OgboAto:



'Ignant' much like your Alaafin/Oyo peoples?

Mention just 1 Orisa that Ooni is in charge of, just one or better still, mention one Orisa & I'll tell you the clan of that Orisa as well as the facebook page of the head or a son of that clan for verification. Heck, you could even come to Ife to verify.

You & your ilks have bandied this nonsensical story for years without recourse to how Ife is structured.

If anyone is a slave then it should be Alaafin. Eru, slave, lon ko ila. In Yorubaland, slaves are the ones with the type of marks found in the Alaafin family. Read C.O Adepegba's work. Also, if any King should be regarded as inferior in the entire Yorubaland then it is the Alaafin's throne: 1. The empire it controlled crumbled & was chased like a bitch to his friend's town which he usurped & sidelined his friend's family. It is like saying the Queen of Britain is superior to Arab Kings because Britain once ran the whole world or say the Roman King is superior to British Queen because Roman was colonized Britain. 2. Alaafin has no fecking crown! There are 16/32 Kings with original crown, Alaafin has 'zero' crown. In fact, the throne has a 'crown' made of sese efun [white beads] which is sacred to Obatala; who knows if Alaafin was the son of the slave woman who became a votive of Obatala?

Feck outta here. Ife is still the head of all Yoruba towns & the Ooni is still the head of all Oba Alade in Yorubaland in Nigeria & in the diaspora.

You are welcome.

Is that sooo? No wonder Ife folks dont have tribal marks

No wonder Wowcatty is behaving like a slave; Once a slave, always a slave

I have always asked some of our brothers from oyo town to clealy and carefully tell us their own version of the story of oranmiyan staff of office presently located in ile-ife.

I must confess, I really thank all the historians here; you are guys are lovely especially for keeping those arrogant edo guys quiet. They think they are smart by thinking that they can use the means of social media to rewrite history but forgetting that smartness can never stand in place of truth and fact

OgboAto:


Your conclusion is unfounded and your entire story is nipt tenable.

1. The century Jesus was born & the establishment of Christian era is still a source of debate amongst scholars.

2. The flood myth features is virtually every culture. In fact, the pyramid of Giza was said to have been erected because of a deluge. Israel had close contacts with Egypt my friend.

3. Persia, Israel, Arab are all located in the Mesopotamia/Sumerian region. Guess what? The early myths of Sumeria/Mesopotamia features the deluge gist.

My conclusiob still stands, you are poorly read on this subject. No story.

My brother,

Thanks for being patient with me for getting back this late on this. Been quite buried with other engagements.

As regards your opening remark that my "conclusion is unfounded" and my "entire story is nipt tenable", I need to quickly clarify that I haven't even presented the argument for my contrary position (although I noted that I will if you're interested in the discussion).

What I have simply done so far is to:

1. Deny your position on Noah's Flood, while noting that I have evidence for my position.

2. Request that you should substantiate your claim that the Flood never happened with proof.

3. (And lastly) Analyze the "evidence" you presented to see if it helps your claim. (And this last one is what I have been doing mostly.)


And as I have shown, again and again, the sole "evidence" you've put forward so far, rather than agree with your position actually agrees with mine instead.

A step by step analysis of your "evidence" may, this time around, help you to clearly see the point I was making that your "evidence" supports my view and not yours, after which I will turn to the three (3) new points you just presented above:


Your only "evidence" in respect of the issue of Noah's Flood said:

"There are many points of RESEMBLANCE between Christianity and the Cult of Mithras. One of the REASONS for this (i.e. for this resemblance -- Noah's Flood story in this specific context) is that THE PERSIAN MYSTIC INVADED ITALY DURING THE FIRST CENTURY AFTER CHRISTIANITY ..."


So, if the foregoing statement is anything to go by, then the following ideas are deducible from it:


1. The contact period between the two faiths is said to be in the first century following the earliest century of Christianity. And this is sometimes between * 101 CE and 200 CE.

2. The contact between the two faiths accounts for why the Noah's Flood story came to be present in BOTH faiths.

3. Prior to the contact, ONLY ONE of the two faiths had the Noah's Flood story in its tradition.

* I was, in fact, mistaken and conservative when I had situated the contact period to sometimes between 001 CE and 100 CE because to be strict, that was the earliest century of Christianity and not the first century after it. The statement you had provided simply said "THE FIRST CENTURY AFTER" which is 101 CE to 200 CE.


The foregoing three points are the summary of what your "evidence" basically says. In other words, your "evidence" is not very specific as regards which of the two faiths is THE ONE that had the Noah Flood story in its traditions prior to the contact.

However, I adduced other historical facts to specifically distil the point which your "evidence" was to be getting at.

I showed that the Noah's Flood story has been recorded in the text of Judaism some nine hundred years before the contact in Italy between Christianity and the Cult of Mithras.

The earliest Christians, therefore, knew this story as part of their tradition (long before they exported their religion to Italy and other parts too) because Judaism is the same tradition that even Jesus himself (just like any other Jew of the time) was born into and followed, even though another slight variant of the same religion later grew out from his following.

So, since your "evidence" inherently contains the idea that ONLY ONE of the two faiths (i.e. Christianity and the Cult of Mithras) had the Flood story prior to the contact, and we have just seen that the story is already part of the Judeo-Christian tradition prior to the contact in Italy; then the unavoidable conclusion (if the statement you presented as "evidence" is anything to go by) is that the presence of the Flood story in the Cult of Mithras was from Christianity.


Now to the three (3) new points you just presented above:

You wrote in your point (1) that:

The CENTURY Jesus was born and hence the Christian Era is still a source of debate amongst scholars.

Firstly, it is with every sense of politeness that I say to you that your point here does not in the slightest way discredit my deductions from your "evidence". And this is because:

The "evidence" you provided wasn't trying to put a date (i.e. a number) to when the earliest century of Christianity was. It is merely situating THE CONTACT in time, using the earliest century of Christianity (whenever that was) as A REFERENCE POINT. Hence its statement to the effect that the contact happened in the first century AFTER Christianity and not within the earliest century of Christianity.


So, regardless of the century in which Jesus was born, and hence the earliest century of Christianity (be it Jesus was born in what is generally thought to be 500 BCE, 200 BCE, 1 BCE, 300 CE, or 600 CE, etc.), the author of the "evidence" you presented is simply saying that the CONTACT didn't happen until in Italy in the first century AFTER the earliest century of Christianity, regardless of what numbers this earliest century of Christianity is dated to.

And there is no denying the fact that the Sacerdotal and the Yahwist texts of Judaism (the religion in which Jesus himself was born and of which he was a follower) already has the Flood story centuries before the earliest century of Christianity, regardless of what numbers this earliest century of Christianity is dated to.


Having shown that your claim (that the CENTURY of Jesus' birth is a subject of debate among scholars) does not in any way discredit my conclusion; I like to quickly make it clear that no single scholar of historical criticism worth the name since the time of Irenaeus (when the debate of this dating of Jesus' birth began) until now has ever placed the dating of Jesus' birth outside of one specific century.

In other words, there is a concensus among scholars on THE CENTURY of Jesus' birth contrary to your statement that scholars place his birth at different centuries.

Just for the sake of learning from each other, the following are some of the different datings (but within the same century) that have been proposed over time by scholars, including the extremes:


A. T. Olmstead places Jesus' birth at 20 BCE.
A. T. Olmstead, "The Chronology Of Jesus' Life", Anglican Theological Review, 1942, Volume 24, No. 1, pp. 1-26.


Jerry. E. Vardaman places Jesus' birth at 12 BCE.
J. E. Vardaman, "Jesus' Life: A New Chronology" in J. Vardaman & E. M. Yamauchi (Ed.), Chronos Kairos Christos: Nativity And Chronological Studies Presented To Jack Finegan, 1989, pp. 55-82.


Nikos Kokkinos also places his birth at 12 BCE.
N. Kokkinos, "Crucifixion in A.D. 36: The Keystone For Dating The Birth Of Jesus" in J. Vardaman & E. M. Yamauchi (Ed.), Chronos Kairos Christos: Nativity And Chronological Studies Presented To Jack Finegan, 1989, Eisenbrauns: Winona Lake, pp. 133-163.


George Ogg places it at 11 BCE or 10 BCE or 9 BCE
G. Ogg, "Chronology Of The New Testament" in M. Black and H. H. Rowley (Eds.), Peake's Commentary On The Bible, 1962, Thomas Nelson and Sons Ltd, pp. 728-730.


T. Corbishley places it at 8 BCE
T. Corbishley, "The Date Of Our Lord's Birth", Scripture, 1946, Volume 1, No. 4, pp. 77-80.


George Ogg again with another set of argument places it at 8 BCE or 7 BCE
G. Ogg, "Chronology Of The New Testament" in J. D. Douglas (Ed.), The New Bible Dictionary, 1962, The Intervarsity Fellowship: London, pp. 223-228.


Ethelbert Stauffer places it at 7 BCE
E. Stauffer, Jesus And His Story, 1960, SCM Press Ltd: London, pp. 22-43 and pp. 91-110.


Konradin Ferrari-D'Occhieppo places it at 7 BCE
K. Ferrari-D'Occhieppo, "The Star Of The Magi And Babylonian Astronomy" in J. Vardaman & E. M. Yamauchi (Ed.), Chronos Kairos Christos: Nativity And Chronological Studies Presented To Jack Finegan, 1989, pp. 41-53.


C. H. Turner places it at 7 BCE or 6 BCE
C. H. Turner, "Chronology Of The New Testament" in J. Hastings (Ed.), A Dictionary Of The Bible Dealing With Its Language, Literature And Contents Including The Biblical Theology, 1898, Volume 1, pp. 403-415.


The Eerdmans Bible Dictionary places it at 7 BCE or 6 BCE
"Chronology, Biblical" in A. C. Myers (Ed.), The Eerdmans Bible Dictionary, 1987, William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company: Grand Rapids (MI), p. 214.


John. P. Meier places it at 7 BCE or 6 BCE
J. P. Meier, A Marginal Jew: Rethinking The Historical Jesus, 1991, Volume 1 (The Roots of the Problems and the Person), Anchor Bible Reference Library, Doubleday: New York, pp. 372-409. The summary is in pp. 406-409.


Armstrong & Finegan place it at 7 BCE or 4 BCE
W. P. Armstrong & J. Finegan, "Chronology Of The NT" in G. W. Bromiley (Gen. Ed.), The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia, 1979 (Fully Revised, Illustrated), Volume I, William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company: Grand Rapids (MI), pp. 686-689.


Jack V. Scarola places it at 6 BCE
J. V. Scarola, "A Chronology Of The Nativity Era " in E. J. Vardaman (Ed.), Chronos Kairos Christos II: Chronological, Nativity, And Religious Studies In Memory Of Ray Summers, 1998, pp. 61-84.


Richard W. Husband places it at 6 BCE or 5 BCE
R. W. Husband, "The Year Of The Crucifixion", Transactions Of The American Philological Association, 1915, Volume 46, pp. 5-27.


Paul L. Maier places it at the Winter of 5 BCE
P. L. Maier, "The Date Of The Nativity And The Chronology of Jesus' Life" in J. Vardaman & E. M. Yamauchi (Ed.), Chronos Kairos Christos: Nativity And Chronological Studies Presented To Jack Finegan, 1989, pp. 113-130.


Paul L. Maier with another set of data/argument places it at a Winter in 5 BCE or 4 BCE
P. L. Maier, In The Fullness Of Time: A Historian Looks At Christmas, Easter, And The Early Church, 1991, HarperSanFrancisco: New York, p. 25 and p. 153.


Harold W. Hoehner also places it at a Winter in 5 BCE or 4 BCE
H. W. Hoehner, Chronological Aspects Of The Life Of Christ, 1978, Zondervan Publishing House: Grand Rapids (MI), p. 27 and p. 114 for conclusions.


Jack Finegan also places it at a Winter in 5 BCE or 4 BCE
J. Finegan, Handbook Of Biblical Chronology: Principles Of The Time Reckoning In The Ancient World And Problems Of Chronology In The Bible, 1964, Princeton University Press: Princeton (NJ), pp. 298-301.


Robert Anderson places it at the Autumn of 4 BCE
R. Anderson, The Coming Prince: The Last Great Monarchy Of Christendom, 1882, Second Revised Edition, Hodder and Stoughton: London, pp. 88-105.


Douglas. Johnson places it at c. 4 BCE
D. Johnson, "And They Went Eight Stades Toward Herodeion" in J. Vardaman & E. M. Yamauchi (Ed.), Chronos Kairos Christos: Nativity And Chronological Studies Presented To Jack Finegan, 1989, pp. 93-99.


Ernest L. Martin places it at 3 BCE or 2 BCE
E. L. Martin, "The Nativity And Herod's Death" in J. Vardaman & E. M. Yamauchi (Ed.), Chronos Kairos Christos: Nativity And Chronological Studies Presented To Jack Finegan, 1989, pp. 85-92.



Regarding your point number two (2) that THE Flood myth exists in virtually every culture of the ancient world, I agree with this 100%. I have never disputed that. In fact, this fact is one of the primary evidence that supports my position which I will demonstrate if I am permitted to.

To use this point number (2) as evidence for your case, you need to do more than merely mention that the story is ubiquitous, you need to show specifically that all these Flood myths (or at least one or some of them) are the basis for the Abrahamic tradition of Noah's Flood; contrary to which I maintain that it is the other way round.

My position that it is the other way round is actually in accordance with the submission of geologists, oceanographers, geo-mythologists, et al. who have launched investigations in modern times specifically into the Noah Flood story.


You also wrote in your point three (3) that:

"Persia, Israel, Arab are all located in the Mesopotamia/Sumerian region." and that "the early myths of Sumeria/Mesopotamia feature the deluge gist."

I have actually known all of these since many years ago, and I say this with all sense of respect. I have read about the Sumerian/Mesopotamian flood myths and I have noted how they bear a striking parallel to the Abrahamic Noah's Flood account.

In fact, I have read the content of one of the ancient Epics long ago (some of the most ancient of which include "the Epic of Atra-Hasis" and "the Epic of Gilgamesh", with their later Akkadian version among other versions) and I have noted how it is strikingly parallel to the Abrahamic account of Noah's Flood.

But I did not just stop there, which is actually where I believe you have stopped and where you believe I haven't even gotten to, smiles!

The reality is that I have not only followed the issue to that point, I have actually studied it beyond that point of merely paying attention to the striking parallel between these Epics and the Abrahamic account of Noah's Flood; and that is precisely why I now know better (than I used to know on the topic), which is that:

This Sumerian/Mesopotamian myths of the Flood rather than having influenced the Abrahamic account of Noah's Flood was actually influenced by it, and I am open to exploring this in more details.

Warm regards,
TAO11

Cc:
Amujale
Googi
Kunmiiii
Oduademonest
Ollaxworld

Let there be order!

Arguments and insult is a toxic mix.

Amujale:
Let there be order!

Arguments and insult is a toxic mix.

You're right brother. I think that Oyo girl called "wow- whatever" is just a trouble making revisionist.

She has been refuted beyond remedy, and I personally think she should be ignored going forward as she has begun to sound frustrated and ready to fight dirty.

Kudos to everyone here!

The Noah story isnt original to the christian bible.

Its been proven beyond reasonble doubt that all Abrahamic religions use plagerized text from more older concepts and philosophies from around the world.

Abrahamic religious text shouldnt be taken serious, nor literally, one can use our time more productively than following a weapon of mass destruction.

Why?.

Because the authors had a total disregard for chronology, the Ages and how they are meant to line up in a perfect harmony, instead they plagerized from Africas intellectual property in an attempt to basterdize the characters of the true heroes. The African people.

They copied from us and jumbled it up and came up with a Jesus story so as to help keep their peasants paying taxes.

Abrahamic religious text are silent weapons of mass destruction.

Just as the academics said in their earlier post, The main characters of Abrahamic religions take after more older ones.

i.e The stark similarities between Jesus and Mary, Horus and Isis.

There are more than fifty divine' characters from around the world that the authors of Abrahamic text borrowed from at an one given time.

I can name all fifty of them; they share similarities with characters in the christian bible that it cannot be down to coincedence.

No, the authors of Abrahamic text are guilty of a huge amount of criminality in the way they lie, steal and cheat on the way to making their bible..

Amujale:
The Noah story isnt original to the christian bible.

Its been proven beyond reasonble doubt that all Abrahamic religions use plagerized text from more older concepts and philosophies from around the world.

Abrahamic religious text shouldnt be taken serious, nor literally, one can use our time more productively than following a weapon of mass destruction.

Why?.

Because the authors had a total disregard for chronology, the Ages and how they are meant to line up in a perfect harmony, instead they plagerized from Africas intellectual property in an attempt to basterdize the characters of the true heroes. The African people.

They copied from us and jumbled it up and came up with a Jesus story so as to help keep their peasants paying taxes.

Abrahamic religious text are silent weapons of mass destruction.

Just as the academics said in their earlier post, The main characters of Abrahamic religions take after more older ones.

i.e The stark similarities between Jesus and Mary, Horus and Isis.

There are more than fifty divine' characters from around the world that the authors of Abrahamic text borrowed from at an one given time.

I can name all fifty of them; they share similarities with characters in the christian bible that it cannot be down to coincedence.

No, the authors of Abrahamic text are guilty of a huge amount of criminality in the way they lie, steal and cheat on the way to making their bible..

My brother there are lots and lots of pseudo-intellectual postulations and hypotheses making rounds all over the internet and been passed off as facts by non-experts who have other motives emanating from either an anti-supernatural bias or an anti-Abrahamic bias. But objective research doesn't work that way.

I am afraid that you've gotten the wrong impression that I am a proponent of Biblical inerrancy or that I believe in the idea that Abrahamic religions do not borrow from other ideologies. No I'm not such a dogmatic.

The story of Noah's Flood is a historical fact, not merely because it is found in the Abrahamic tradition, but because many modern scientific investigations (some in the hard sciences and some as recent as the year 2012) has been launched specifically into the story by scientists who don't even believe in the idea of religion, and their conclusions are the same.

And it is that Noah's Flood is indeed a prominent historical fact which has influenced many ancient flood mythologies around the world including the Epic of Gilgamesh.

Their conclusions doesn't make the scripture less fallible though, because they often cautioned in their conclusions that the Noah's Flood is actually not a universal cataclysm contrary to the position of the Judeo-Christian scripture, but rather a prominent local deluge in the Middle East in ancient times.

In fact, some of these experts specifically identified the specific Middle East region of the Flood and the specific remains of the Flood.

Having said that, the parallel between the mythology of Isis the Virgin Mother and Horus the Messiah on one hand; and the Story of Mary the Virgin Mother and Jesus the Messiah on another hand has been another source of erroneous conclusion by many.

I have debated a professor friend based in New Zealand on these myths before in which case he was arguing for the position that the Judeo-Christian narration (of these two accounts to be precise now) borrowed from their corresponding parallel mythologies.

Guess what! He is yet to reply my counter argument analysing the Biblical account of Jesus birth vis-a-vis the mythology of Isis the Virgin Mother and Horus the Messiah since over nine (9) months ago, even though we have had several debates since then.

My general observation is that people are in a haste to draw conclusion whenever something appears to confirm their preconceived notions. Most of the erroneous conclusions in these regards often emanate from post hoc ergo proper hoc logical fallacies.

TAO11:


My brother there are lots and lots of pseudo-intellectual postulations and hypotheses making rounds all over the internet and been passed off as facts by non-experts who have other motives emanating from either an anti-supernatural or anti-Abrahamic bias. But objective research doesn't work that way.

I am afraid that you've gotten the wrong impression that I am a proponent of Biblical inerrancy or that I believe in the idea that Abrahamic religions do not borrow from other ideologies. No I'm not such a dogmatic.

The story of Noah's Flood is a historical fact, not merely because it is found in the Abrahamic tradition, but because many modern scientific investigations (some in the hard sciences and some as recent as the year 2012) has been launched specifically into the story by scientists who don't even believe in the idea of religion, and their conclusions is the same.

And it is that Noah's Flood is indeed a prominent historical fact which has influenced many ancient flood mythologies around the world including the Epic of Gilgamesh.

The conclusion doesn't make the scriptures less fallible though because they cautioned in their conclusion that Noah's Flood is actually not a universal cataclysm as the Judeo-Christian scripture has put it, but rather a lrominent local deluge in the Middle East in ancient times with some of these experts specifically identifying the remains of the Flood.

The Noah story is fake.

All the Abrahamic religions are false, fake and have a history of unbelievable violence, therefore their content is deemed also false.

Amujale:


The Noah story is fake.

All the Abrahamic religions are false, fake and have a history of unbelievable violence, therefore their content is deemed also false.

Lol!

We can go on and on repeating the statements "the Noah story is fake" and "the Noah story is not fake" consecutively in turns ad infinitum.

But one thing we should be aware of is the fact that, that is not how to establish an objective and scientific conclusion.

Abrahamic text are copied from older concepts and philosophies, that is the reason they are fake.

Manufactured stories borrowed from numerous communitues from around the world and without any logical justification claiming to be the originator.

That makes all Abrahamic religious text fake and false.

Amujale:
Abrahamic text are copied from older concepts and philosophies, that is the reason they are fake.

Manufactured stories borrowed from numerous communitues from around the world and claiming to be the originator.

That makes all Abrahamic religious text fake and false.

Let's deal with the stories and concepts one after the other, starting with the current one at hand viz. the Flood.

Since your claim above consequently implies that the Noah's Flood account is borrowed from pre-existing mythologies, I humbly ask that you should not just stop at making the claim.

I will like you to establish an argument leading to that conclusion, while you substantiate each and every specific sub-claim within your argument structure with firm and established scientific facts by any redoubtable researcher.

Let's refrain from fanciful speculations, theories, hypothesis, etc. this time around.

We can do this my brother!

The Noah Story fails its first hurdle.

According to Abrahamic txt, Noah Story destroyed Noahs world, the only survivors are in Noahs ship.

That is false . That never happened.

According to history Noah story is false.

That Noah Story is fake.

All the major characters of Abrahamic text take after older divine chatacters from around the world.

Abrahamic religions are counter-intuitive.

Amujale:
The Noah Story fails its first hurdle.

According to Abrahamic txt, Noah Story [sic] destroyed Noahs world, the only survivors are in Noahs ship.

That is false . That never happened.

According to history Noah story is false.

That Noah Story is fake.

You didn't heed my humble but golden advice that you should substantiate each and every sub-claim in your argument structure with firm and established evidence from any redoubtable researcher.

You have made three interesting claims which I have boldened above.

These claims have the potential to settle this debate once and for all in your favour, but it is quite unfortunate that you did not substantiate them in any way whatsoever, with any evidence whatsoever.

How then do you expect these claims to be trusted by any objective person?

I hope you get what I am saying, now!

Amujale:


All the major characters of Abrahamic text take after older divine chatacters from around the world.

Abrahamic religions are counter-intuitive.

My last comment before this applies to your claim here too, especially because of the boldened word "All"

.

oduademonest:


Is that sooo? No wonder Ife folks dont have tribal marks

No wonder Wowcatty is behaving like a slave; Once a slave, always a slave

And your sidekick oduademonest.

See the work devil gave you to do. Eroja were e ti pe.

Both of you with sub 60 IQ know well that you are the ATOUNRINWAS which is worse than slaves.

Oponu dodoyo onikun nimu atole, go and remove the ’Oyo’ in your name if you can.

Oyo is Yoruba and Yoruba is Oyo for ancient wisdom and reason.

Let Alaafin be number 10, that still won’t make Ooni an Oba let alone number 100.

Oyo is the only empire from Yorubaland for a good reason

He’s called Alaafin(palace owner) for a reason

Every Yoruba has ’Oyo’ in his or her name for a reason.

Alaafin is the only Oba who can install Aareonakakanfo, general Iyalode and iyalaje for a reason.

And Alaafin was and still the head of all Oba alade, Ooni doesn’t have a crown, he’s an Abore and only Oba for the Orisa adherents but Alaafin is the Oba of all.

You can cut and paste from Bible to Quora and text from Hindu and bhudha join together you madman, your place at the end of the day is in a mental hospice.

oduademonest:


Wowcatty didrin to n dato

In the hierarchy of things, Alaafin is not even #2, he is #3.


https://aremuforlife./2018/02/18/supremacy-of-the-ooni-of-ife/

For the moment, let me turn over to you, extracts from the Government Gazette of 28 February, 1903, revealed that there was a dispute between the Akarigbo of Sagamu and the Elepe of Epe as to the latter’s right to wear a crown. The then governor, Sir William Macgregor, sent his special hammock to Ooni Olubuse I (father of the present Ooni), to carry him from Ife to Ibadan from where he took a train to Lagos. At the council meeting, Sir Macgregor told the Ooni that “he had received a telegram from the Alake of Abeokuta who requested to be advised of the time the Ooni was leaving Lagos for Ife. The Alake expressed a desire to arrange to meet the Ooni outside the walls of Abeokuta in order to pay him respect.”

Ooni’s Power
The governor then informed the council of the purpose of the meeting – “the crown case of Elepe of Epe.”

The Gazette continues: “But before introducing this question, His Excellency informed the council that he had heard with great sorrow that the town of Ogbomoso was burnt and that 60 persons, including the Lemomu, perished in the conflagration. The governor had sent to the Baale to express his sorrow and also 100 pounds for distribution among the people in their distress.”

Having heard the main question, the Ooni was reported in the Gazette as saying: “A man should speak only what he knows to be true. Only the Akarigbo and the Awujale have the right to wear crowns; even if the Akarigbo is a chicken, he is the head of his government and is entitled to wear a crown”. But the Akarigbo and the Awujale had their crowns originally from Ife. I had only been a few days as Ooni before the present Akarigbo was installed. To knock out the claim of Elepe, the Ooni went on. Besides Akarigbo and the Awujale, I do not know of the rights of anyone else in Ijebu to wear a crown. No one on the face of the earth has power to give the Elepe of Epe a crown, unless the Ooni of Ife. Even the Alake of Abeokuta has not this power.
“THE ALAKE OF ABEOKUTA AND THE ALAAFIN OF OYO HAD THEIR CROWNS ORIGINALLY FROM THE OONI OF IFE”.

The following are the rulers to whom crowns have been given by the Ooni of Ife:
“The Alake of Abeokuta, the Olowu of Owu (Abeokuta), the Alaafin of Oyo, the Oba Ado, the Osemawe of Ondo, the Awujale of Ode (Ijebu), the Alara of Ara, the Ajero of Ijero, the Orangun of IIa, the Owa of Ilesa, the Alaye of Efon, the Ore of Olure, the Akarigbo of Remo (Ijebu), the Alaketu of Ketu, the Elekole of Ikole, the Olowo of Owo, the Ewi of Ado, the Oloko of Oko (Abeokuta) the Alagura of Agura (Abeokuta)”.


This piece settles a number of issues which the sons of Odu’a must now reconcile in present day events in Odu’a land. Well, the Gazette goes on: “The Ooni further explained that on the occasion of original assignment of a crown, a fee of 50 pounds (then one hundred naira) at least was paid to the Ooni of Ife. This fee was demanded only from the first ruler of the territory for which the crown was assigned. His successors are not again called upon to pay the fee. “But each new ruler on succeeding his father is required to announce his assumption of the crown to Ife, and at the same time to send presents and offerings for an auspicious reign.”

Some great rulers, for example, the Alaafin of Oyo on succeeding to the crown, paid over again and the fee due to the Ooni of Ife. The Ooni also stated that some rulers sent him annual presents, and he showed the council the horse-tailed staff which was sent to him by the Alaafin of Oyo”. The last ruler that paid for his crown to the Ooni of Ife, was the Akarigbo of Sagamu.”

The governor asked the Ooni whether the Elepe could be permitted to wear a crown if he now paid the 50 pounds. The Ooni replied that all crowns are hereditary and that a man could not wear a crown. The power vested in the Ooni of Ife was to confirm the title to the right. All crowns are hereditary. There was in 1931 another dispute, this time it was over the seniority of the Ooni over the other obas and chiefs and there was also the issue of seniority as between the Alaafin (then called the Oloyo) and Oba of Benin (then called Oba Ado). The senior district officer, Captain HLM Butcher, sent minutes to the then commissioner, Western Province, in which he said, among other things:


REPORT THIS AD

“I have discussed this with several chiefs and old men in various places and the evidence seems to me to show clearly that the Ooni of Ife is the leading Yoruba chief.
CAPTAIN BUTCHER ALSO TOLD US: “THE OBA OF BENIN CALLED OBA ADO IS THE SECOND, WITH THE ALAAFIN CALLED OLOYO THE THIRD.”
He added for good measure, there is no definite order of precedence for the other obas… I have never heard that the Oba of Benin recognized the suzerainty of the Alaafin 300 or 400 years ago. I can see no reason why he should, as he was nearly always, be the more powerful of the two.” You can interpret or misinterpret these extracts, but the truth is contained in them.

2. Extracts from Ooni of Ife in Yoruba History by Dele Awoyinfa 1992 (Pages 67-71)
On the 23 February, 1903, the Ooni of Ife travelled to Lagos at the invitation of Governor William Macgregor and was lodged in a mansion at Tinubu Square, Lagos. On the following day, the governor met the Ooni of Ife and informed him that the purpose of the invitation was to have direct evidence from the Ooni of Ife as to who among the Obas of Yorubaland were entitled to wear a crown. The Ooni was scheduled to address the newly constituted Native Council which was divided on the issue as to whether a particular Chief at Ijebu was entitled to wear a crown. The Ooni’s statement of tradition was preceded by the customary greetings which included this passage from the Government Gazette of 28 February 1903.

The Ooni of Ife also said that it was only out of respect for his friend the Governor that he had broken through the tradition of the country and had come all the distance. Kabiyesi, the Ooni added that the other chiefs, when they heard of his departure from Ile-Ife, left their palaces and were living outside the walls and there they would remain until the returned, even the Alaafin of Oyo was now living outside the palace. The above was good example of rigid observation of traditional protocol by the Obas of Yorubaland who regarded themselves as the sons of Oduduwa (the Ooni of Ife). What it amounted to in tradition was the silent message of the governor in Lagos, that none of them would cooperate with him until their father returned safely to Ile-Ife. Living outside the palace, meant that life in the whole community was paralyzed. If an Oba for reason of tradition, had to stay outside his palace, all his chiefs and his Baales in the villages would do the same thing and all the Arabas (Chief Priests) would be busy making sacrifices to the 201 gods of Yoruba tradition. All markets in the towns and villages would cease to function normally.



The return of the Ooni would be greeted by gun salutes and jollification throughout the empire, all markets will resume normal commercial activities and each monarch will travel to Ife to pay homage and act as communication link between the subjects of each Kingdom and the Ooni, as to what transpired in Lagos. Governor Macgregor acceded to the request of the Ooni that no member of the native council could behold him face to face during the meeting and so, it was the voice of the Ooni that the meeting heard, as no inferior monarch or subject could behold the countenance of the Ooni without unpleasant consequences. [/b]After giving the names of those entitled to wear beaded crown, the following testimonies by members of the council were recorded at page 167 of the Government Gazette of 28 February 1903.

[b]1. Kasumu Giwa: Our fathers have told us that the Ooni of Ife has the power to issue crowns to the rulers of Yoruba.
2. Sufianu: If a crown does not come from Ife it is a worthless thing.
3. Sunmonu Bashorun: [b]It is the Ooni who gives crowns to all the rulers.
4. Oshonisi: (Chief native doctor): We cannot go beyond the Ooni’s statement.
5. Bale of Ebute-Metta (Egba): I stand by what the Ooni says.
6. Seidu Olowu: It is a truth widely known in Yoruba that the Ooni gives crowns. I am on the side of Ooni.
7. Ogbogun: It is well known that only the Ooni can issue crowns. Ife is the cradle of our race. All power and authority come from Ife.
8. Brimah Edu: If the Ooni had not come, we would all have talked nonsense.
9. Chief Musa Bababiokun: I agree with the Ooni in all what he said.
10. Chief Ashogbon: I agree with the Ooni.
11. Chief Soenu: All the rulers in Yoruba have their crowns from the Ooni.
12. Chief Ojora: It is a wonderful thing to see the Ooni at Lagos, Ooni is right.
13. Chief Aromire: His Excellency has done a great thing in bringing the Ooni down to Lagos. This is a wonderful thing. We never expected it, the Ooni is our greatest authority on the subject.
14. Chief Obanikoro: The Ooni has told us many important things today, which we never knew before. The Ooni is the only authority on the subject and we abide by his decision.
15. Chief Eletu: We are much thankful to the Governor for inviting the Ooni of Ife to Lagos. [/b]

On 20th July 1903, government minute from Ibadan confirmed that “The power of the Ooni to confer crowns is universal and unique in Yorubaland”. In 1984, the late Akarigbo of Remo, Oba Moses Awolesi Erinwole II, received the present Ooni of Ife, the Arole of Oduduwa, Oba Okunade Sijuwade Olubuse II, in his palace at Sagamu. In his welcome address, the Akarigbo who was over 90 years old at the time, declared that Oba Sijuwade who was considerably younger, was his father. He told his people that his father had arrived “Baba ti de”. In 1932, by a letter dated August 11, the then Awujale of Ijebuland wrote to the Ooni of Ife referring to him as “Dear father” and a most cordial reply of 17 October 1932 from the Ooni referred to the Awujale as “My dear son”.

In 1937, the first conference of all Obas of Yorubaland held at Oyo, The Ooni of Ife presided. In 1938, the second conference was held at Ife, the Ooni of Ife presided. In 1939, the conference was held in Ibadan, the Ooni of Ife presided.
In 1940, the conference of Yoruba Obas was held at Abeokuta, the Ooni of Ife presided. In 1941, the conference was held at Ijebu-Ode the Ooni of Ife presided.


In 1942, the conference was held at Benin City the Ooni of Ife presided. It was the custom at the conference for the Ooni of Ife to sit in the east and the other Obas on his right and left. The governor sat in the west with members of his staff, the governor would depart with his entourage and the Ooni would take control. The Royal dynasty of Yorubaland extends to Benin Republic, Warri and other parts of the world such as the Akoos, of Sierra Leone and the Bahians of Brazil. In the United States of America, a strong “resorgimento” in African culture and tradition has identified itself with Ife.

3. Extracts from “Ooni of Ife Through Time” An Exhibition of Ife King list (A publication of the National Museum Ile-Ife Osun State Nigeria 20th November 2000, Pages 8-9 ORANMIYAN THE 6TH OONI OF IFE

Oranmiyan, the youngest son of Oduduwa was said to have lived between 1200 and 1300 A.D. He was a great warrior and the husband of Moremi, the great heroine of Ife. The present day Benin dynasty was said to have been founded by him when the people of Benin sent to Oduduwa for a king to rule over them. Oranmiyan was sent and when he got to Benin, he organized and established a system of government as obtained in Ife. He married one of their daughters who gave birth to Eweka who became the first Oba of the present day Benin dynasty. Oranmiyan having completed the task left Benin and settled at Oyo where he also left a son, Ajaka on the throne as the Alaafin of Oyo. Thus, Oranmiyan was the only Ooni of Ife who had the honour of crowning two of his sons as the Oba of Benin and the Alaafin of Oyo respectively.


4. Extracts from Guardian Newspaper Friday 30th January 2009 “Politics Page” HOW A NEW YORUBA LEADER WILL EMERGE, BY OBA OKUNADE SIJUWADE
The Ooni spoke extensively on the political history of the Yorubas with particular reference to the raging leadership tussle between some prominent Yoruba Obas, especially in Oyo State where the Alaafin of Oyo, Oba Lamidi Adeyemi, the Olubadan of Ibadan, Oba Samuel Odulana and the Soun of Ogbomosho, Oba Jimoh Oyewumi, Ajagungbade III who have locked horns over some issues of Obaship supremacy.

Recalling the bickering between him and the Alaafin over the headship of the Council of Obas in the old Oyo State, the Ooni said contrary to beliefs in many quarters, the creation of Osun State from old Oyo State by the Babangida military administration in 1991 has nothing to do with Alaafin’s attempt to make the chairmanship seat of the then council of Obas rotational between him and the Alaafin.

Going deeper into the 19th century history of the Yorubas, the Royal father said the Oyo Empire which Alaafin is still hanging on to is no longer in existence because it collapsed and disintegrated in September 1793 under the Alaafin Aole and that the Alaafin also lost his beaded crown with fringe benefits during the episode and the crown was never re-consecrated by Ile-Ife up till today

For Alaafin to be claiming to be number one Oba in Yorubaland is a taboo which his fore bearers never attempted to do because they knew it would be an abomination, he stated. On the current raging crisis that is rocking the Oyo State council of Obas, the Ooni said he had been approached by millions of Yoruba people in Nigeria and abroad on the need to intervene, stressing that his stand at this moment is to make sure that there is peace.



7. THIS IS ILE-IFE BY OMOTOSHO ELUYEMI – A SHORT HISTORY OF ILE-IFE
Ile-Ife, Ooye Lagbo, More mope aye, Ibiti ojumo tii mowa, Oodaiye, Olori aiye gbogbo, Ile owuro.

Translated:
Ile-Ife, the city of the survivors where the dawn of the day was first experienced, Head of the whole universe, the land of the most ancient days.

The history of Ile-Ife is wrapped in a thick fog of myths and mythologies. And the above quotation aptly shows the appellations of the city. To the European foreigners during the early colonial days it was a “holy city”. To the descendents of Yoruba in other parts of the world, Ife was the original home of all things and the peoples.


To the Yoruba in Nigeria it was “the home of divinities and mysterious spirits”. To the Ife people themselves it was “Ilurun” that is, “the gateway to heaven”.
Ile-Ife and the Yoruba Nation:
Ile-Ife was the capital of the Yoruba Kingdom before the emergence of Oyo Empire. After the death of Oduduwa many of his children and grand-children left Ile-Ife to found other Yoruba Kingdoms.
Before the series of wars of the last century in the Yoruba country, Ile-Ife was the capital of an extensive kingdom. To this effect, C.H.H. Moseley, the acting Governor of the colony of Lagos in 1904 confirmed that “the Province of Ife lies adjacent to the colony of Lagos”.

8. ALAROYE – YORUBA MAGAZINE BACK PAGE 25TH NOVEMBER, 2013 – WHERE DID ODUDUWA COME FROM.

A man called the father of historians who lived around 484 to 424 BC (Before Christ) HERODOTUS wrote in one of his books that between 3000 and 1000 years BC (Before Christ) there were five nations in Africa and Ile-Ife was (is) one of them. Also Reverend Johnson said all YORUBA NATIONS throughout the world traced their SOURCE TO ILE-IFE.

The conclusion from this scenario is that ILE-IFE is the only TOWN known to be HOME FOR ALL the YORUBA’S and this is not in dispute whatsoever.

BY PRINCE JOHNSON ADETUNMBI ADEMILUYI (DIPLOMA – YabaTech, FCMA-uk, FCA)

REFERENCES:
1. Extracts from Government Gazette of 28th February 1903 by the Late Governor of Ogun State Chief Victor Olabisi Onabanjo – “Ayekooto” (First published in his life time and post humously published again in Nigerian Tribune of Saturday 25th April 2009).

Born2Breed:




There you go again...we are not bothered where your own version of Oduduwa migrated from, it could be Sudan or Mecca or Hausa.

Our Prince went West of Benin to become a King and sent his son as a replacement who finally left due to anger.

Your Oduduwa came from the East of Ife to become the almighty king of Yorubaland.

Anytime you quote Joäo Alfonso book do it with open mind. Is Ife located in the East of Benin and is it a full moon walk? Does the present Ooni or past Ooni wear a Gold cross necklace? Who did Alfonso meet that told him these stories and were they Benin's or slave he met on the way? Did he confirm this from any Benin chief?

Can you give what you don't have or adorn?


I keep saying it until the Oba of Benin, Olugbo of Ugbo,Oõni of Ife and perhaps the Äalafin of Oyo come together and put the missing pieces together we their subjects will continue to battle of supremacy.

My sister from Benin, thank you very much for your submission. You have raised some very relevant and interesting questions which beg for answers.

However, please be rest assured that I didn't mean to ignore you since you posed those questions to me about a week ago. I have actually been immersed in other equally important engagements that I did not want to answer your questions just for the sake of answering, because I have very good answers which I can't afford to give hastily. I am glad I've got some time now.


Firstly, I like to clarify that my motive for engaging in dialogues like this pertaining to the Ife-Benin relationship is not to engage in any kind of supremacy or superiority brawl. Rather, my motive stems from the fact that I'm strongly convinced of the fact that there still exist on this platform some of our people from both sides, who are very willing to accept the historical submissions of some of the world's foremost researchers and academics in the field of Ife-Benin relationship, regardless of who puts it forward here -- be it an Edo person or a Yoruba person.

Before I begin to answer the important questions you've put forward, I like to quickly state very clearly that I respect the fact that you're being willing to acknowledge that Oduduwa does not have to be one and the same person as Ekaladerhan. That's very commendable of you! Moreover, I like to humbly correct your assertion that Ekaladerhan left Igodomigodo (Bini) and went in the western direction. That's not quite correct!

The reality, instead is as documented in the first ever definitive account of the history of Benin (first published in 1934, in Edo language viz. Ekhere Vb' Itan Edo) by an Edo historian, Chief Uwadiae Jacob Egharevba. This masterpiece has had many English editions since then.

In fact, R. E. Bradbury, in writing the first foreword to the book's third English edition in 1960, notes that the book "... has become something of a classic, known and relied upon not only in Nigeria, but by scholars all over the world, (as) ... a valuable, indeed an indispensable, pioneering work."

J. U. Egharevba while discussing the collapse of the Ogiso dynasty and the background to the Eweka or Oba dynasty alluded to the direction in which Ekaladerhan had gone:

" This dynasty came to an end when its last ruler, Ogiso Owodo, was banished from Benin as a result of popular hostility against his regime which was marked by misrule and cruelty. His only heir, Ekaladerhan, who would have succeeded him HAD EARLIER BEEN EXILED TO UGHOTON*; and although every attempt was made to persuade him to return to Benin after his father's banishment, Ekaladerhan refused to leave Ughoton where he eventually died."

[Refer to "J. U. Egharevba, A Short History of Benin, (Ibadan University Press, 1968), pp. 2-3." in G. A. Akinola, "The Origin of Eweka Dynasty: A Study In the Use and Abuse Of Oral Traditions", Journal of the Historical Society of Nigeria, Vol. 8, No. 3 (December 1976), pp. 22.]

* Ughoton (the town founded by Ekaladerhan) is not due west of Benin, but rather in the southern direction towards Itsekiri. See the attached map below showing the relative position of Ughoton and Benin City in the Benin kingdom.


Moreover, please note that I am aware of later revisionist accounts in some amateurish 'historical' works from 1970 onwards (which, as expected, made no attempt to cite the sources of their contrary information or the names of their informants) attempting to distort the foregoing account found in the works of the earliest and world-renowned Edo historian, Chief J. U. Egharevba.

These later amateurish revisionist redactions are basically four in number, and they form the foundations upon which other later redactions (like Oronsaye, 1995 and later 'internet writings') are based. These four include:

1. S. B. Omoregie's "Edo History" -- a typescript publicized circa 1970, wherein it is claimed in pp. 130-136 as well as pp. 146-149 that "Ekaladerhan" later left his new town which he founded (i.e. Ughoton) and headed for Ife where his alleged Edo nickname "Omonoyan" was later "corrupted" by the native hosts to "Oranmiyan". Smiles!

2. Prince Edun Akenzua's "Benin Was Never A Republic", Sunday Observer, 12 Sept. 1971, pp. 12., which like Omoregie's claimed that "Kaladerhan" later left his new town (Ughoton) for Ife, but differed with Omoregie's to the extent that it claimed that Oranmiyan was not the same person as "Kaladerhan", but rather his youngest child.

3. D. U. Edebiri's "Whence the Igodomigodos", Sunday Observer, 12 April 1970, pp. 12., wherein it is also claimed that "Ekaladerhan" later left his new town (Ughoton) and arrived at Ife. Edebiri further claimed that it was "Ekaladerhan" who coined "Ife" as the name of the previously unnamed town when he had said: "Ilefe" -- meaning "I run into safety".

4. Air Iyare's "Bini, Ife Dynasties: The Truth. Focus On Our Historical Past", Sunday Observer, 6 May 1973, pp. 12-13., wherein it is also claimed that "Ikaladerhan" left his new town (Ughoton) and arrived at "Uhe". Iyare further claimed that it was "Ikaladerhan" who coined "Uhe" as the name of the previously nameless town when he had said: "Emwan wa ye HEE" -- meaning "This place looks calm". It is also claimed that "Ikaladerhan" had exclaimed the words "Ikpomosa! IDODUWA"
-- meaning "I thank God I have chosen the path to greatness" -- during his coronation as the king of Uhe.

These four redactions of the earliest known account still remained unknown to, and unheard of, by the general Edo public until in circa 1978 when a somewhat reconciled and summarized version of these four mutually contradictory versions became publicly pronounced by the then incoming Oba of Benin, Omo N' Oba Erediauwa, during his 1978-9 coronation.

From then onwards, versions of this 'politically correct' revision quickly became popular and accepted by many Edos especially the general lay public. Roger Blench & Matthew Spriggs alluded to this point in their joint work while citing indigenous O. J. Eboreime:

"During the coronation of 1978-9, another version which attempted to turn Egharevba's account on its head emerged (Eboreime 1985). This account gave an interpretation and meaning to all Yoruba names and culture heroes. Oranmiyan was renamed Omonoyan (' a pet child'), while Oduduwa became Izoduwa ('I have chosen a prosperous path'). The former was said to have been the son of the latter, who had earlier wandered from Benin. He found himself in Ife and correspond to the Yoruba millennial expectation of a prince from the East. He was installed as the Oni of Ife."

[Roger Blench & Matthew Spriggs, Archaeology and Language I: Theoretical and Methodological Orientations, 2004, pp. 314.]

Apart from the obvious inherent improbabilities that make these later mutually contradictory revisionist accounts highly untenable, it is important that I stress that no single professional historian in the whole wide world takes any of these amateurish later redactions (that Ekaladerhan somehow found his way to Ife and became known as Oduduwa) seriously over Egharevba's account that Ekaladerhan lived and died in Ughoton.

The basic reason why these later revisions are disregarded in academia is almost easily imaginable. The redactors made no attempt to cite the sources of their contrary information or the names of their informants. And the reason why these persons would have made these tireless attempts to distort the earliest known indigenous account of the history of Benin is not very far-fetched.

R. E. Bradbury had lauded Egharevba for the very thing which the above redactors would later fail to do. He commended Egharevba for gathering his data "from well selected informants who had grown to maturity before 1897. The memories of which they retained of past traditions had not had much time to be overlaid and distorted by pressing interest and new problems of the modern world."

[Foreword in "J. U. Egharevba, A Short History of Benin, (Ibadan University Press,1968), ix."]

I think I will have to stop here for now because it's getting longer than I had anticipated. I will, however, proceed -- in a separate post that will follow this -- to answer each of the specific questions you've posed to me in relation to the account of the Portuguese seafarer João Afonso d'Aveiros about the lordship of the Ogané over Benin kingdom.

Warm regards!

Cc:
Amujale
Erosimo
Googi
Kunmiiii
Oduademonest
Ollaxworld

^^^

So this is the origin of the fake story Adeyemi tells that @Wowcatty is stupidly parroting without evidence

The travels of the Landers throw just a little light on the extent of the influence of
Benin and its neighbours. They tell us' when at Badagry in 1830, that during the
lifetime of the late ruler's father, “and for countless ages before that period, Badagry
was a province of Lagos, and tributary to it, as Lagos is and has been from time
immemorial to the powerful King of Benin (I. p. 47).” They also tell us (I. p. 49) that
the body of the late chief at Badagry, “like those of his ancestors had been sent to
Benin in order that its bones might adorn the sacred temple at that place, agreeably
to an ancient and respected custom which has ever been religiously conformed to and
tenaciously held by the Lagos people.” At Katunga, about 200 miles N.N.W. of
Benin and about 50 from Rabba, it was expressly and repeatedly told to them
“that the monarch of this empire is brother to the King of Benin, but notwith
standing this near relationship of the two sovereigns, not the slightest intercourse or
communication is maintained between Yarriba and that power, so at least
the inhabitants of this place [Katunga] have informed us; and the reason they
ascribe for it is that the distance between the countries is too great (I. p. 176), and
they were moreover told that the two kings “were of one father and one mother.”
During their stay at Kiama, about 50 miles S.W. of Busa, they heard that Ederesa,
the rightful heir to the throne of Nouffie [Nupe) “sought an asylum with one of
the chiefs of a state near the Kingdom of Benin (I. p. 234).” Finally at Wowow,
about 25 miles S. of Busa, the king's head drummer, a Nupe man, told them “that
canoes capable of containing 500 men in each, and having thatched houses in them
are taken to Binnie [Benin] with great quantities of cloth, cotton, &c., by his
countrymen, &c.” (II. p. 117).
Of the connection with the distant Katunga, Mr. C. Punch makes some
interesting remarks: “Katunga seems to have been the name of the old town of
Awyaw of which Orangan was King. One of his sons became King of Benin and
took his father's money. Another became King of Ketu and took the ‘crown,' I
suppose the family honours. The Oni of Ife inherited the land, but it must be
remembered that Oni Ife (Kewhohas Ife) was originally the Alaffin. The Alaffin left an officer at Ife when he went to war, and the officer became Oni Ife. He became
by degrees a sort of religious guardian of the royal tombs and treasures, and
eventually attained a position in some ways semi-religious more important than the
Alaffin. The Alaffin, however, is in my opinion the titular head of the Yorubas,
and by tradition the Benin Kings descend from him.”
Capt. Hugh Crow" mentions a Bini embassy which arrived at Bonny during
one his visits. (p. 218). This was prior to 1812, but Crow's editors will have it (p. 190)
that Benin claims sovereignty “from Bonny to Calabar" which does not seem probable.


Source:
GREAT BENIN
Its Customs, Art and Horrors.
BY
H. LING ROTH (1903).





I can see why Adeyemi sticks to this account of Yoruba history. This book was published before Samuel Johnson's book. Irrespective, no one doubts that Pax Oyo was in the 15th century. What people like Adeyemi and his cohorts refuse to understand is that Pax Ife was 11th-12th century, way before Pax Oyo; and the Ife dynasty was based on advanced technology, war conquests, and economic prosperity.

That being said, It seems Oyo was really feared by Benin, Dahomey, Ketu, Nupe, Borgu and Hausa people.

oduademonest:
^^^

So this is the origin of the fake story Adeyemi tells that @Wowcatty is stupidly parroting without evidence

The travels of the Landers throw just a little light on the extent of the influence of
Benin and its neighbours. They tell us' when at Badagry in 1830, that during the
lifetime of the late ruler's father, “and for countless ages before that period, Badagry
was a province of Lagos, and tributary to it, as Lagos is and has been from time
immemorial to the powerful King of Benin (I. p. 47).” They also tell us (I. p. 49) that
the body of the late chief at Badagry, “like those of his ancestors had been sent to
Benin in order that its bones might adorn the sacred temple at that place, agreeably
to an ancient and respected custom which has ever been religiously conformed to and
tenaciously held by the Lagos people.” At Katunga, about 200 miles N.N.W. of
Benin and about 50 from Rabba, it was expressly and repeatedly told to them
“that the monarch of this empire is brother to the King of Benin, but notwith
standing this near relationship of the two sovereigns, not the slightest intercourse or
communication is maintained between Yarriba and that power, so at least
the inhabitants of this place [Katunga] have informed us; and the reason they
ascribe for it is that the distance between the countries is too great (I. p. 176), and
they were moreover told that the two kings “were of one father and one mother.”
During their stay at Kiama, about 50 miles S.W. of Busa, they heard that Ederesa,
the rightful heir to the throne of Nouffie [Nupe) “sought an asylum with one of
the chiefs of a state near the Kingdom of Benin (I. p. 234).” Finally at Wowow,
about 25 miles S. of Busa, the king's head drummer, a Nupe man, told them “that
canoes capable of containing 500 men in each, and having thatched houses in them
are taken to Binnie [Benin] with great quantities of cloth, cotton, &c., by his
countrymen, &c.” (II. p. 117).
Of the connection with the distant Katunga, Mr. C. Punch makes some
interesting remarks: “Katunga seems to have been the name of the old town of
Awyaw of which Orangan was King. One of his sons became King of Benin and
took his father's money. Another became King of Ketu and took the ‘crown,' I
suppose the family honours. The Oni of Ife inherited the land, but it must be
remembered that Oni Ife (Kewhohas Ife) was originally the Alaffin. The Alaffin left an officer at Ife when he went to war, and the officer became Oni Ife. He became
by degrees a sort of religious guardian of the royal tombs and treasures, and
eventually attained a position in some ways semi-religious more important than the
Alaffin. The Alaffin, however, is in my opinion the titular head of the Yorubas,
and by tradition the Benin Kings descend from him.”
Capt. Hugh Crow" mentions a Bini embassy which arrived at Bonny during
one his visits. (p. 218). This was prior to 1812, but Crow's editors will have it (p. 190)
that Benin claims sovereignty “from Bonny to Calabar" which does not seem probable.


Source:
GREAT BENIN
Its Customs, Art and Horrors.
BY
H. LING ROTH (1903).





I can see why Adeyemi sticks to this account of Yoruba history. This book was published before Samuel Johnson's book. Irrespective, no one doubts that Pax Oyo was in the 15th century. What people like Adeyemi and his cohorts refuse to understand is that Pax Ife was 11th-12th century, way before Pax Oyo; and the Ife dynasty was based on advanced technology, war conquests, and economic prosperity.

That being said, It seems Oyo was really feared by Benin, Dahomey, Ketu, Nupe, Borgu and Hausa people.

Finally, their mischief has been exposed.
O ya, our reliable and articulate historians come and do justice o

Seriously, I think the chicanery about the novel hypothesis of Benin has been exposed many times before.

However, it was done perfunctorily almost with a wave of the hand because most people never think it would gain traction.

If they had been taken seriously as Oduademonest very early, it would have been nipped.

Pro. Ade Ajayi waved it off. It was Urhobo Prof. Ekeh that took it head-on in one of the lecture series right there in Benin.

It will not be their last attempt. There is more to be gained by sitting on the shoulder of a giant.

The Benin people no dey show face again.

It would be nice for them to at least acknowledge that we won in the spirit of fair play so we can have closure.

Oh well . . . There is a reason Yoruba are the most civilized in Africa


"Without saying that the Yorubas are more intelligent, we can safely say that their intellect is more cultivated; the asperities of savage life are softened, the sharper angles are worn down by frequent intercourse with their fellow-men, and at the present day they are cerrtainly the leading people in WestAfrica."

Source:
THE YORUBA-SPEAKING PEOPLES OF THE SLAVE COAST OF WEST AFKICA
RELIGION, MANNERS, CUSTOMS, LAWS, LANGUAGE,En:
.A.B.ELLIS,

Published (1894)