Ihedinobi:

It's not. The reason that I've held staunchly on to the theory that Sasuke inherited Itachi's mangekyo is that Zetsu said so and, I don't remember who, I think it was still Zetsu, but someone said that that was why the mangekyo powers were reversed in Sasuke's eyes. I agree, even if I have one reservation.

If the mangekyo is awakened by emotional trauma, then Sasuke's fear for his life when he saw that he'd exhausted his power without killing Itachi should have awakened it. Also I remember Itachi saying something like, "finally, it appears" but the chances that it was Oro's manifestation when Sasuke ran out of chakra that he was referring to are about the same as that it was the mangekyo that he referred to. That's my reservation.

My speculations are based on the anime anyway. Don't remember reading the manga on this one but there doesn't appear to be reason why the two should differ on this.

KazeKage1: Wait, anyone remembers this?

WackyJ1:
Common... Sasuke's MS Does not resemble anybody's own and is in itself weird so it's understandable that it's powers would not be exactly the same... And that "finally it appears phrase" was for Orochimaru, Itachi wanted to use that fight to cleanse Sasuke of Orochimaru, (Itachi referred to Orochimaru as It, see insult and disrespect). The emotional trauma is from loss not being scared, i think sasuke's father said it to sasuke

WackyJ1:
Common... Sasuke's MS Does not resemble anybody's own and is in itself weird so it's understandable that it's powers would not be exactly the same... And that "finally it appears phrase" was for Orochimaru, Itachi wanted to use that fight to cleanse Sasuke of Orochimaru, (Itachi referred to Orochimaru as It, see insult and disrespect). The emotional trauma is from loss not being scared, i think sasuke's father said it to sasuke

wiegraf: It was a glorious chapter heh
Questions still abound... Who faced the fourth (wrong hand came off)? Obito grew out his hair before the uchiha massacre (can we now assume was done with the aid of zetsus)? If he got the rineegan late when did he learn rinegan specific jutsu (though I can't recall if he's used rinegan only jutsu). What had he been doing all that time? And most importantly to me, where's spiral face now ? Also, I suspect spiral face is rather...special (and a cold-hearted bastard), asides from being a good boy. It probably was spiral face that was fooling around with the ring after sasori died. To explain this and the wrong hand coming off against the 4th, I'm guessing obito/swirl face have attained full symbiosis.... Tobi. Also helps explain why madara was seemingly talking to obito's hand

firestar:

[size=16pt]That spiral-faced persona I suspect is what made Obito tobi. Heck call swirl face tobi...he's playful somewhat if the Diedara-tobi duo is referenced. Isn't he the one that posed to Obito a silly question what it was like to doodoo? _{...seriously?}[/size]

wiegraf:

Yeah, after sasori's death there was no reason to fool around with only zetsu around, yet he was clearly goofing off dropping the ring, etc. That's more swirl face in control of the body, not obito.

Swirly face seems to be a little too comfortable in battles, almost like he relishes them. Does he have some of madara's will, or is it just black zetsu? He might be a good boy, but I suspect there's some extreme ruthlessness behind the goofing about. Madara probably put more of his faith in swirly face than obito, or at least relied on swirly face to subtly make sure the plan was achieved, that obito didn't back out.

In essence I think both obito and swirly face are still alive, but their bodies have now become inseperable. Heck, I think it was mostly swirly faced against minato, as he may be more experienced than obito (if he has madara's memories)
. Look at his weapons of choice for instance

I really love your analysis.

firestar:


I really love your analysis.

wiegraf:

Ty
Whose our nobel price winner, and how are their styles similar, if I may ask?

wiegraf:

Yeah, after sasori's death there was no reason to fool around with only zetsu around, yet he was clearly goofing off dropping the ring, etc. That's more swirl face in control of the body, not obito.

Swirly face seems to be a little too comfortable in battles, almost like he relishes them. Does he have some of madara's will, or is it just black zetsu? He might be a good boy, but I suspect there's some extreme ruthlessness behind the goofing about. Madara probably put more of his faith in swirly face than obito, or at least relied on swirly face to subtly make sure the plan was achieved, that obito didn't back out.

In essence I think both obito and swirly face are still alive, but their bodies have now become inseperable. Heck, I think it was mostly swirly faced against minato, as he may be more experienced than obito (if he has madara's memories)
. Look at his weapons of choice for instance

wiegraf: It was a glorious chapter heh
Questions still abound... Who faced the fourth (wrong hand came off)? Obito grew out his hair before the uchiha massacre (can we now assume was done with the aid of zetsus)? If he got the rineegan late when did he learn rinegan specific jutsu (though I can't recall if he's used rinegan only jutsu). What had he been doing all that time? And most importantly to me, where's spiral face now ? Also, I suspect spiral face is rather...special (and a cold-hearted bastard), asides from being a good boy. It probably was spiral face that was fooling around with the ring after sasori died. To explain this and the wrong hand coming off against the 4th, I'm guessing obito/swirl face have attained full symbiosis.... Tobi. Also helps explain why madara was seemingly talking to obito's hand

Feraz:
in essence, minato fought senju and uchiha.....black zetsu was made from madara's will and that explains why it's always serious.....did you read the part where madara said he'd teach him the jutsus of the uchiha and rikudo himself? It goes to show us that madara himself was quite vast with jutsus hence obito knowing many of them

wiegraf:

Ok, so he had info not readily available which, not unusual for him. Usually he'd need some practice..then again he's madara, just a few minor tests before his demise were probably enough. Spiral face is not black zetsu though, yes?

Something random that occurs to me is that 2nd should have easily been able to counter impure world, as he knew the seals. Considering who he was he would have accepted just about any downside breaking the jutsu may bring about... Meh

mchenry:
The second should be able to counter the jutsu, but he was never in control.he went from being resurrected,to being controlled, to being sealed in the shinigami. Unlike madara who gained control of his soul just before he could return to wherever he came from

wiegraf: ^^^
Not much new true, but I like the way it was presented. For all those feats obito had a lot of help. For instance it could have been swirly face that took on 4th. And the hack hash genes probably and swirly face providing the untolds amount of chakra (cheap, but that's usual). I can also see the need to wipe out the uchiha, maybe because they might be able to break the genjutsu or be immune to it. So there probably was a plan to wipe them out all along. That would explain why they launched the attack on konoha with 9 tails, to breed hate and lead to the eventual persecution of the uchiha (as they are the only ones known to summon the kyuubi). They succeeded of course, danzo didn't need much to be provoked.

firestar: [size=15pt] Dark Zetsu represents Madara's will...think of it as a minder or a babysitter. White Zetsu is a mutation of Senju cells.
So, the monochrome entity known as 'Zetsu' is a corruption of reality: Senju-Uchiha.
...
Sometimes, I try to make sense of Kishimoto's philosophy, and I get what?
Shades of grey.[/size]

Ihedinobi:

Shades of grey, hmmm. Honestly, what I get is that the real delineation is not so easy to get at, but it's definite. For instance, is Madara evil for wanting a peaceful, happy world where everything is perfect? Who would non-hypocritically say yes to that? Obviously, there's no evil in his desire. But does that make Madara good? I say no. It only shows that he has good intentions.

To judge Madara (and, in truth, everybody) correctly, we must take account of the whole story: the what's, the who's, the how's, the why's, and even the wheres. A true judge is one who knows the full story and totally, completely understands it. He must also be completely sympathetic to the interests of those he judges, he must necessarily be one in experience with them. Or else his judgment will necessarily be unfair.

I think that that is a major theme of Kishi's work: everybody has their own story. Tobi was so completely evil that we could hardly excuse him. Upon first confirmation that it was Rin's misfortune that provoked his malevolence, we were like, "wth, just Rin? What the deuce could of happened to Rin to warrant all that?" But I, for one, appreciate the anguish that he must have felt seeing what he saw.

I'll even go so far as to say that the main character Naruto embodies the theme. That's why he has such an open heart, wanting to know everybody's story and understand them. For him, even fighting them is so that he can save them. Meh, can't tell you how much I love the story. It's actually why I'm a little reluctant in venturing theories. I tend to feel that the best anyone can do is speculate, and baselessly too with obscure parts of the story. So predictions are about as wrong as they can be right.

I don't even know if there'll be a sage of the six paths at the end. But I'm betting there will be and that his name will be Naruto, but honestly I can't see him living beyond Sasuke's death if that ever happens and I cannot comprehend a Sasuke who is second to a Rikudou Sennin Naruto. I also can't understand a two-Rikudou Sennin end. Damn, it just feels so freaking open-ended.

Ihedinobi:

Shades of grey, hmmm. Honestly, what I get is that the real delineation is not so easy to get at, but it's definite. For instance, is Madara evil for wanting a peaceful, happy world where everything is perfect? Who would non-hypocritically say yes to that? Obviously, there's no evil in his desire. But does that make Madara good? I say no. It only shows that he has good intentions.

To judge Madara (and, in truth, everybody) correctly, we must take account of the whole story: the what's, the who's, the how's, the why's, and even the wheres. A true judge is one who knows the full story and totally, completely understands it. He must also be completely sympathetic to the interests of those he judges, he must necessarily be one in experience with them. Or else his judgment will necessarily be unfair.

I think that that is a major theme of Kishi's work: everybody has their own story. Tobi was so completely evil that we could hardly excuse him. Upon first confirmation that it was Rin's misfortune that provoked his malevolence, we were like, "wth, just Rin? What the deuce could of happened to Rin to warrant all that?" But I, for one, appreciate the anguish that he must have felt seeing what he saw.

I'll even go so far as to say that the main character Naruto embodies the theme. That's why he has such an open heart, wanting to know everybody's story and understand them. For him, even fighting them is so that he can save them. Meh, can't tell you how much I love the story. It's actually why I'm a little reluctant in venturing theories. I tend to feel that the best anyone can do is speculate, and baselessly too with obscure parts of the story. So predictions are about as wrong as they can be right.

I don't even know if there'll be a sage of the six paths at the end. But I'm betting there will be and that his name will be Naruto, but honestly I can't see him living beyond Sasuke's death if that ever happens and I cannot comprehend a Sasuke who is second to a Rikudou Sennin Naruto. I also can't understand a two-Rikudou Sennin end. Damn, it just feels so freaking open-ended.

tayoccu:

Naruto will most likely become a reincarnation of the sage of 6 paths, but I doubt he will be kage, he will have bigger fish to fry (Since he will be the "avatar" of narutoverse),
I see Sasuke becoming Kage (if he survives the war)

tayoccu:

Naruto will most likely become a reincarnation of the sage of 6 paths, but I doubt he will be kage, he will have bigger fish to fry (Since he will be the "avatar" of narutoverse),
I see Sasuke becoming Kage (if he survives the war)

mchenry:

Sasuke has gone beyond the point of no return. i don't see how he can return to the village, either he kills naruto, or is killed by naruto.

mchenry:

Sasuke has gone beyond the point of no return. i don't see how he can return to the village, either he kills naruto, or is killed by naruto.