AbuTwins:

Muslim translators are honest as much as possible. We do not judge them as they translate based on the knowledge available to them at a particular given time. They are sometimes faced with the problem of choosing one English word to reresent an Arabic word with several English meaning. Of cos his name was mentioned.

You are not honest at all, I don't mean to insult you. How can you justify the impostion of Islamic bias into the translation of the quran and you defended this evil by escusing this falsehood by claiming 'We do not judge them as they translate based on the knowledge available to them at a particular given time'. Are you saying that the Arabic manuscript available for the translation, to MUHSIN KHAN, was different from what Yusuf Ali, Picktail, Sahih International, etc, have? Why do you even need to quote an obviously biased quranic tranlsation to defend your claim? Do you accept or reject this bad quranic translation you quoted?:

MUHSIN KHAN
So if you (O Muhammad SAW) are in doubt concerning that which We have revealed unto you, [i.e. that your name is written in the Taurat (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel)] then ask those who are reading the Book [the Taurat (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel)] before you. Verily, the truth has come to you from your Lord. So be not of those who doubt (it). S. 10:94-95.

AbuTwins:
There is a difference between a Prophet and a Messenger in Islam. This is the third time i am asking you the definition of Prophet according to your religion.

A prophet is an individual who is regarded as being in contact with a divine being and is said to speak on that entity's behalf, serving as an intermediary with humanity by delivering messages or teachings from the supernatural source to other people. The message that the prophet conveys is called a prophecy. Prophet predict the future and warn people of dangers or blessing ahead.

AbuTwins:
Islam says the original books given to Moses, David, Abraham and Jesus are lost. All what we have today are attempts by men to write down from hearsays...

Luke 1:1-3 New International Version (NIV)
1 Many have undertaken to draw up an account of the things that have been fulfilled among us, 2 just as they were handed down to us by those who from the first were eyewitnesses and servants of the word. 3 With this in mind, since I myself have carefully investigated everything from the beginning, I too decided to write an orderly account for you, most excellent Theophilus.

If you say the Torah and Injil, according to muslims ONLY, is lost, we can as well hold allah accountable for deceit who said, in the quran, that he will preserve his words (since allah aknowlegded the torah and the injil and his words). If allah cannot protect his words, then mohammed is either lying or allah does not exist.

The Qur'an says that God promises to preserve the remembrance in Surah 15, Verse 9. Also we see that the Torah and Gospel were referred to as remembrance and this is supported by appealing to Surah 16:43, 21:7, 21:48, 21:105 and 40:53-54. Therefore, Surah 15:9 is indirectly, yet clearly stating that the Torah and Gospel have also been preserved.

And We did not send before you anything other than men, to whom We revealed, and [sent] not angels: 'So ask the followers of the Remembrance, those knowledgeable in the Torah and the Gospels; if you do not know', that, then they know it, and you are more likely to believe them than the believers are to believe Muhammad (s), (Tafsir al-Jalalayn; source; bold and underline emphasis ours)

[We sent them] with clear signs (bi'l-bayyinat is semantically connected to an omitted [verb], namely, We sent them with clear arguments, and the Books and We have revealed to you the Remembrance, the Qur'an, that you may make clear to mankind what has been revealed to them, therein, in the way of [what is] lawful and unlawful, and that perhaps they might reflect, upon this and take heed. (Source; bold and emphasis ours)

(And We sent not (as Our messengers) before thee) O Muhammad (other than men) human beings like you (whom We inspired) with commands and prohibitions and signs. (Ask the followers of the Remembrance) the followers of the Torah and the Gospel (if ye know not!) that Allah always sent human messengers. (Tanwîr al-Miqbâs min Tafsîr Ibn ‘Abbâs; source; bold and underline emphasis ours)

(With clear proofs) with commands, prohibitions and signs (and writings) the events of the scriptures of the people of old; (and We have revealed unto thee the Remembrance) We have sent Gabriel with the Qur'an (that thou mayst explain to mankind that which hath been revealed for them) that with which they were commanded in the Qur'an, (and that haply they may reflect) upon what they were commanded in the Qur'an. (Source; bold and underline emphasis ours)...QURAN 16:43-44.

So who do I believe? Allah who said he will preserve his words or Muslims who claim that Allah's words have been lost or corrupted by the Jews and the Christians?

true2god:
You should throw that question to allah and his messenger who asked you to validate quranic revelation from the previous scriptures given to the people of the book.

And if thou (Muhammad) art in doubt concerning that which We reveal unto thee, then question those who read the Scripture (that was) before thee. Verily the Truth from thy Lord hath come unto thee. So be not thou of the waverers. And be not thou of those who deny the revelations of Allah, for then wert thou of the losers. S. 10:94-95 Pickthall

You dont need to argue with me but humbly seek clarification. Modern-day muslims are so arrogant and disobedient. Lot is not a prophet. Can you tell me the prophecy he made?

which Book and which "people of the book"?. Does this include chinco Bible which is missing some books of Mathew etc?. Chinco no dey last, you know

AnanseK:


Method of reading doesn’t change the text. English translations do not replace the arabic text which remains intact.

You really don’t have a point.

don't mind him. He understands but he chose to be annoying. We have just discussed this on different thread not long ago. He's look to prey on unsuspecting Muslims. He failed

Empiree:
which Book and which "people of the book"?. Does this include chinco Bible which is missing some books of Mathew etc?. Chinco no dey last, you know

You mean my Bible is Tecno while your Quran is the IPhone.

Empiree:
don't mind him. He understands but he chose to be annoying. We have just discussed this on different thread not long ago. He's look to prey on unsuspecting Muslims. He failed

Relax bro, I have retired many Muslims from Nairaland and you are only hanging on a thread. You know Islam is a pack of lies that you must defend, even irrationally.

true2god:
Relax bro, I have retired many Muslims from Nairaland and you are only hanging on a thread. You know Islam is a pack of lies that you must defend, even irrationally.

"retired"?. You are making yourself feel good, right?.

true2god:
You are not honest at all, I don't mean to insult you. How can you justify the impostion of Islamic bias into the translation of the quran and you defended this evil by escusing this falsehood by claiming 'We do not judge them as they translate based on the knowledge available to them at a particular given time'. Are you saying that the Arabic manuscript available for the translation, to MUHSIN KHAN, was different from what Yusuf Ali, Picktail, Sahih International, etc, have? Why do you even need to quote an obviously biased quranic tranlsation to defend your claim? Do you accept or reject this bad quranic translation you quoted?:

MUHSIN KHAN
So if you (O Muhammad SAW) are in doubt concerning that which We have revealed unto you, [i.e. that your name is written in the Taurat (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel)] then ask those who are reading the Book [the Taurat (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel)] before you. Verily, the truth has come to you from your Lord. So be not of those who doubt (it). S. 10:94-95.


A prophet is an individual who is regarded as being in contact with a divine being and is said to speak on that entity's behalf, serving as an intermediary with humanity by delivering messages or teachings from the supernatural source to other people. The message that the prophet conveys is called a prophecy. Prophet predict the future and warn people of dangers or blessing ahead.


If you say the Torah and Injil, according to muslims ONLY, is lost, we can as well hold allah accountable for deceit who said, in the quran, that he will preserve his words (since allah aknowlegded the torah and the injil and his words). If allah cannot protect his words, then mohammed is either lying or allah does not exist.

The Qur'an says that God promises to preserve the remembrance in Surah 15, Verse 9. Also we see that the Torah and Gospel were referred to as remembrance and this is supported by appealing to Surah 16:43, 21:7, 21:48, 21:105 and 40:53-54. Therefore, Surah 15:9 is indirectly, yet clearly stating that the Torah and Gospel have also been preserved.

And We did not send before you anything other than men, to whom We revealed, and [sent] not angels: 'So ask the followers of the Remembrance, those knowledgeable in the Torah and the Gospels; if you do not know', that, then they know it, and you are more likely to believe them than the believers are to believe Muhammad (s), (Tafsir al-Jalalayn; source; bold and underline emphasis ours)

[We sent them] with clear signs (bi'l-bayyinat is semantically connected to an omitted [verb], namely, We sent them with clear arguments, and the Books and We have revealed to you the Remembrance, the Qur'an, that you may make clear to mankind what has been revealed to them, therein, in the way of [what is] lawful and unlawful, and that perhaps they might reflect, upon this and take heed. (Source; bold and emphasis ours)

(And We sent not (as Our messengers) before thee) O Muhammad (other than men) human beings like you (whom We inspired) with commands and prohibitions and signs. (Ask the followers of the Remembrance) the followers of the Torah and the Gospel (if ye know not!) that Allah always sent human messengers. (Tanwîr al-Miqbâs min Tafsîr Ibn ‘Abbâs; source; bold and underline emphasis ours)

(With clear proofs) with commands, prohibitions and signs (and writings) the events of the scriptures of the people of old; (and We have revealed unto thee the Remembrance) We have sent Gabriel with the Qur'an (that thou mayst explain to mankind that which hath been revealed for them) that with which they were commanded in the Qur'an, (and that haply they may reflect) upon what they were commanded in the Qur'an. (Source; bold and underline emphasis ours)...QURAN 16:43-44.

So who do I believe? Allah who said he will preserve his words or Muslims who claim that Allah's words have been lost or corrupted by the Jews and the Christians?

Allah never said he will preserve the Injeel and Tawrah. Injeel and Tawrah as well as others were meant for specific nations/generations and not for the entire world. The Qur'an is the scripture meant for the entirety of the world of Mankind and Jinn.

And i have asked you which scripture are we to refer to today as the Injeel of Jesus? Or the Zaboor of David? or the Tawrah of Moses? Book of Abraham?

AbuTwins:


Allah never said he will preserve the Injeel and Tawrah. Injeel and Tawrah as well as others were meant for specific nations/generations and not for the entire world. The Qur'an is the scripture meant for the entirety of the world of Mankind and Jinn.

And i have asked you which scripture are we to refer to today as the Injeel of Jesus? Or the Zaboor of David? or the Tawrah of Moses? Book of Abraham?

I am very sure that if empiree wants to be sincere, he will confess that the bolded does not make sense. What proof, aside the quran, that the quran is for the entirety of the world of Mankind and Jinn? So the Jinn also recite the quran? What percentage of human population read the quran? Less than 3% (for people proficient in arabic language since other translations like english is not trustworthy).

Take a kool aid bro and stop believing the islamic lies you have been fed with over the years. wake up!

I am sure you are tired of Christianity or Christianity tire you

true2god:
I am very sure that if empir.ee wants to be sincere, he will confess that the bolded does not make sense. What proof, aside the quran, that the quran is for the entirety of the world of Mankind and Jinn? So the Jinn also recite the quran? What percentage of human population read the quran? Less than 3% (for people proficient in arabic language since other translations like english is not trustworthy).

Take a kool aid bro and stop believing the islamic lies you have been fed with over the years. wake up!

Empiree:
I am sure you are tired of Christianity or Christianity tire you

I am honored to be discussed in your watsapp chat. Thanks bro!

You however refused to touch the issue I raised but rather went into emotional blackmail mode. And for your information, I am a christian but not a dogmatic one; I use my brain and analyse issue critically.

true2god:
I am honored to be discussed in your watsapp chat. Thanks bro!

You however refused to touch the issue I raised but rather went into emotional blackmail mode. And for your information, I am a christian but not a dogmatic one; I use my brain and analyse issue critically.

what did you raise?. That Quran is UNIVERSAL?. Yes, that's true whether only 3% of the world population read it or not.

Empiree:
what did you raise?. That Quran is UNIVERSAL?. Yes, that's true whether only 3% of the world population read it or not.

Can you see your logic? A holy book that your god prescribed for mankind but can only be available for 3% of human population while you need am imam and a tafsir to understand it, including some hadith collections (best known as rumours). How can a universal book be so confusing, incoherent and and poorly written such that it will give someone headache and malaria to read a book from an almighty. Such a god is never competent and I can tell you that Wole Soyinka's books are much more clearer and explanatory than your glooooorioooozz al-quran. Go and sit down bro, the 7th century illiterate arabs have scammed you big time. Wake up and see the lies in Islam and its text.

If you can remember, we discussed quran 66:1, while the tafsir of ibn kathir explained it with an hadith narration (by sahih bukhari), the tafsir according ibn jalalayn explained the scenario with a completely different and unrelated hadith narration (by Nissai). If you want to apply a simple logic, you will understand that both different hadith narrations cannot be true at the same time; it is either both are wrong or one is true. If your religious text can be so openly dishonest, what integrity does Islam and the quran possess?

true2god:
Can you see your logic? A holy book that your god prescribed for mankind but can only be available for 3% of human population while you need am imam and a tafsir to understand it, including some hadith collections (best known as rumours). How can a universal book be so confusing, incoherent and and poorly written such that it will give someone headache and malaria to read a book from an almighty. Such a god is never competent and I can tell you that Wole Soyinka's books are much more clearer and explanatory than your glooooorioooozz al-quran. Go and sit down bro, the 7th century illiterate arabs have scammed you big time. Wake up and see the lies in Islam and its text.

If you can remember, we discussed quran 66:1, while the tafsir of ibn kathir explained it with an hadith narration (by sahih bukhari), the tafsir according ibn jalalayn explained the scenario with a completely different and unrelated hadith narration (by Nissai). If you want to apply a simple logic, you will understand that both different hadith narrations cannot be true at the same time; it is either both are wrong or one is true. If your religious text can be so openly dishonest, what integrity does Islam and the quran possess?

what's all these jargons?. Qur'an being for entire making and jinn doesn't mean everyone understands it. That's why you have teacher, imam, educator etc to teach you what you know not. When you attended primary School, secondary School, college and universities, you bought textbooks right?. Yet your teachers and lectures most still reach your many subjects in the same textbooks you bought even if you read them yourself. Abeg, find something else

Empiree:
what's all these jargons?. Qur'an being for entire making and jinn doesn't mean everyone understands it. That's why you have teacher, imam, educator etc to teach you what you know not. When you attended primary School, secondary School, college and universities, you bought textbooks right?. Yet your teachers and lectures most still reach your many subjects in the same textbooks you bought even if you read them yourself. Abeg, find something else

So I have to get a certain scholarship to understand the quran, the supposedly clear words of Allah for all mankind and jinn? Are you ok? How can you compare an organised educational system with reading a common book (the quran); one book? Man, you are more intelligent than this; do not lower the bar out of your religious conviction.

It is like telling me that I need a literature teacher to explain what I read in Wole Soyinka's book. In that case, the student must be a very dull student. If however you tell me the quran need an hadith (a sort of gossip because it is not always true) then the quran still has an integrity problem, even if you chose to close your mind to this reality, because you guys have even classified your hadith into the authentic (reliable), weak (not trustworthy) and fabricated (complete lies) hadith. Which other religion has this type of integrity and validation problem except Islam?

true2god:
I am very sure that if empiree wants to be sincere, he will confess that the bolded does not make sense. What proof, aside the quran, that the quran is for the entirety of the world of Mankind and Jinn? So the Jinn also recite the quran? What percentage of human population read the quran? Less than 3% (for people proficient in arabic language since other translations like english is not trustworthy).

Take a kool aid bro and stop believing the islamic lies you have been fed with over the years. wake up!

Statistically there are about 1.8 billion Muslims on Earth. At least 1Billion out of this would recite parts of the Qur'an 17 times daily in prayers.

If there are 8 Billion people on Earth then 1 Billon/8 Billion is 12.5% of the world. So who is a liar here.

Even if 500k muslims out 8 Billion recite the Qur'an daily we still have 6.25% of the world population.

You claim that being a Christian is the path to salvation so of what is the Tawrah of Moses? Why does God need to reveal any other revelation after he has given one to Moses? Is God's word not perfect? Or why the multiple revelations when there can be one and only revelation?

God's word is Perfect. But the revelation given to Moses, Abraham, Jesus was for his time and specific people.

true2god:
So I have to get a certain scholarship to understand the quran, the supposedly clear words of Allah for all mankind and jinn? Are you ok? How can you compare an organised educational system with reading a common book (the quran); one book? Man, you are more intelligent than this; do not lower the bar out of your religious conviction.

It is like telling me that I need a literature teacher to explain what I read in Wole Soyinka's book. In that case, the student must be a very dull student. If however you tell me the quran need an hadith (a sort of gossip because it is not always true) then the quran still has an integrity problem, even if you chose to close your mind to this reality, because you guys have even classified your hadith into the authentic (reliable), weak (not trustworthy) and fabricated (complete lies) hadith. Which other religion has this type of integrity and validation problem except Islam?

Again, what's all these jargons?. My message was clear. There are such if nonmuslims in the West and around the world who read only Quran and embraced Islam.

AbuTwins:


Statistically there are about 1.8 billion Muslims on Earth. At least 1Billion out of this would recite parts of the Qur'an 17 times daily in prayers.

If there are 8 Billion people on Earth then 1 Billon/8 Billion is 12.5% of the world. So who is a liar here.

Even if 500k muslims out 8 Billion recite the Qur'an daily we still have 6.25% of the world population.

You claim that being a Christian is the path to salvation so of what is the Tawrah of Moses? Why does God need to reveal any other revelation after he has given one to Moses? Is God's word not perfect? Or why the multiple revelations when there can be one and only revelation?

God's word is Perfect. But the revelation given to Moses, Abraham, Jesus was for his time and specific people.

Is your 1.8billion a projected or the current population of Muslims? Who conducted the census and what's the validity of data? Muslims are mostly found in the Arab world, southeast Asia, North and west Africa and the Indo-china, and so what's the total population of the inhabitants of these region and then subtract the non-muslims and you will get an real approximate number of below 1.3billion Muslims. I have read a Muslim who said Muslims population is 2.1billon. Its like you guys like manufacturing figures instead of cars, mobile phones, electronic gadgets etc, which no single Muslim country can manufacture.

That aside, aside from reciting al-fathiha like a peom, over 80% of Muslims worldwide cannot READ the Qur'an in Arabic; they depend on the so-called scholars to read and interpret for them with relevant hadith (a form of rumour or gossip). Many a time Muslims have disagreed on teachings of imams as not being Islamic or not a sunnah, despite their knowledge of Islam. If that's the case, how can the Quran be for all mankind when only a small minority of human population can speak Arabic and among those that speak Arabic, only another small minority can interpret the Quran? There is no logic in it.

The Quran and the hadith are only for the Arabs because its teachings suit their culture and social behaviour. Any non-arab that embraces islam must also embrace Arab culture, language and part of their social behaviour. This is why, if a gentle man embraces Islam, within a very short time he will grow his bears, make his trousiers shorter and start copying the 'phonetics'. Islam is nothing but Arab imperialism and an expansionist ideology for global conquest and domination.

Part of the Arab imperialism is the current RUGA settlement, being proposed by the Muslim President, to allow the semi-arab Fulani easy conquest of Nigeria through a systematic and continuous cultural appropriation of the host community. If allowed to take effect, the Fulani Muslims will settle in Yoruba land, get their own space and local community, built their own mosque, get their local emir, and in the next 40 years, after their number has grown, they declare their jihad on both the fake Yoruba Muslims and their fake Christian counterpart. If you doubt me, ask the Ilorin people. This is how the Arabs and the Fulani work. They only use Islam as a mean to an end. Wake up! 'Soji, ma su!'.

true2god:
Is your 1.8billion a projected or the current population of Muslims? Who conducted the census and what's the validity of data? Muslims are mostly found in the Arab world, southeast Asia, North and west Africa and the Indo-china, and so what's the total population of the inhabitants of these region and then subtract the non-muslims and you will get an real approximate number of below 1.3billion Muslims. I have read a Muslim who said Muslims population is 2.1billon. Its like you guys like manufacturing figures instead of cars, mobile phones, electronic gadgets etc, which no single Muslim country can manufacture.

Why the lies? When are you gonna stop? The current population of the world is about 8 Billion. Nigerian Population alone is about 200 Million. You can check out the world population figures yourself. Your projected statistics is deficient.

I can even tell you we have millions who have memorised the Qur'an unlike other scriptures available today.

true2god:
That aside, aside from reciting al-fathiha like a peom, over 80% of Muslims worldwide cannot READ the Qur'an in Arabic; they depend on the so-called scholars to read and interpret for them with relevant hadith (a form of rumour or gossip). Many a time Muslims have disagreed on teachings of imams as not being Islamic or not a sunnah, despite their knowledge of Islam. If that's the case, how can the Quran be for all mankind when only a small minority of human population can speak Arabic and among those that speak Arabic, only another small minority can interpret the Quran? There is no logic in it.

When you call Hadith a rumour then what do you call a collection of Books with various dubious authors named the Bible? The Bible says...can the Bible talk? Who is speaking in the Bible? Sons of God came to sleep with the daughters of men. Who wrote this? Moses? Nah!
People's ability to speak Arabic is not the validity for the acceptance of Islam. I am not an English man yet i can now understand English! The Qur'an is for Mankind and Jinns till the world ends.

true2god:
The Quran and the hadith are only for the Arabs because its teachings suit their culture and social behaviour. Any non-arab that embraces islam must also embrace Arab culture, language and part of their social behaviour. This is why, if a gentle man embraces Islam, within a very short time he will grow his bears, make his trousiers shorter and start copying the 'phonetics'. Islam is nothing but Arab imperialism and an expansionist ideology for global conquest and domination.

The Prophet was an Arab so yes the may be a clash of culture. I retain any of my culture that does not contradict Islam. I am not an Arab sha.

Why can't you say the same for your book? I once asked you why did your God have to send the new testament if your God is perfect and the Old Testament is perfect. Why dodge this question?

true2god:
Part of the Arab imperialism is the current RUGA settlement, being proposed by the Muslim President, to allow the semi-arab Fulani easy conquest of Nigeria through a systematic and continuous cultural appropriation of the host community. If allowed to take effect, the Fulani Muslims will settle in Yoruba land, get their own space and local community, built their own mosque, get their local emir, and in the next 40 years, after their number has grown, they declare their jihad on both the fake Yoruba Muslims and their fake Christian counterpart. If you doubt me, ask the Ilorin people. This is how the Arabs and the Fulani work. They only use Islam as a mean to an end. Wake up! 'Soji, ma su!'.

Why the hatred O islamophobic guy! Na Arab bring RUGA to Nigeria? Your hatred, ignorance and folly is exposed here. Hausas has been existing in the South-West before you were born and they have been managing themselves well. Them talk say make you no born?

They keep calling one Nigeria but keep dividing the country up and down. No wonder Christians are mostly racist and against Muslim tribes the most.

Empiree:
Again, what's all these jargons?. My message was clear. There are such if nonmuslims in the West and around the world who read only Quran and embraced Islam.

Nobody read the Quran and embrace Islam, not possible because the Quran, without the tafsir and the hadith (rumours and gossips) does not and will not make sense. You and I know this fact as the truth.

Non-muslims, especially in the west, embrace Islam because of the sugarcoated (often lies and half-truth) versions of Islam they are being fed with and over 75% of them leave Islam after 5 years when they are being gradually introduced to the real face of Islam. Islam thrives in the atmosphere of ignorance.

true2god:
Nobody read the Quran and embrace Islam, not possible because the Quran, without the tafsir and the hadith (rumours and gossips) does not and will not make sense. You and I know this fact as the truth.

Non-muslims, especially in the west, embrace Islam because of the sugarcoated (often lies and half-truth) versions of Islam they are being fed with and over 75% of them leave Islam after 5 years when they are being gradually introduced to the real face of Islam. Islam thrives in the atmosphere of ignorance.

I know you are in pain and confused at the same time. You know the truth already.

You know there are evidences online of many converts. And churches sold and converted to Mosques. Help yourself https://m.youtube.com/results?search_query=Churches+sold+to+Muslims

And this below right here I have prayed there twice. It was a church of Jesus Christ now converted to Mosque of Jesus and currently going through expansion. It is located in Hollis, Queens NY. You can see the outside and inside structure resemble Christian church. It was just bought two or three yrs ago after the church lost members and Bishops tired of CHRISTIANITY and other top pastors embraced Islam. Oju ti e

And Europe is the worst. Churches are losing to Muslims faster than federal express

And do you remember video game in the 90s called Sega?. When you played soccer with computer and you are defeated, computer says "you lose"

Empiree:
I know you are in pain and confused at the same time. You know the truth already.

You know there are evidences online of many converts. And churches sold and converted to Mosques. Help yourself https://m.youtube.com/results?search_query=Churches+sold+to+Muslims

And this below right here I have prayed there twice. It was a church of Jesus Christ now converted to Mosque of Jesus and currently going through expansion. It is located in Hollis, Queens NY. You can see the outside and inside structure resemble Christian church. It was just bought two or three yrs ago after the church lost members and Bishops tired of CHRISTIANITY and other top pastors embraced Islam. Oju ti e

And Europe is the worst. Churches are losing to Muslims faster than federal express

And do you remember video game in the 90s called Sega?. When you played soccer with computer and you are defeated, computer says "you lose"

You are right, even some churches are being converted to clubs and banks. The issue is that Muslims consider Christianity as an enemy and so it is a propaganda victory if a church is bought and converted to mosque. Club owners and bankers who converted churches to clubs and parks have nothing to gain going to social media to make known their 'victory' because it will have no impact on their business.

Europe, as at today, is no longer religious and many are turning into agnostics and atheist. So it is futile using an old church bought by Muslims as a propaganda tool and Europeans no longer sell their old churches to Muslims because of this. For the fact that few and insignificant number of churches are converted to mosque does not eliminate the fact that Islam is an Arabs imperial movement whose motive and global domination and control. I at times wonder how you think.

The Chinese call Islam mental disease and are currently re-progamming over 2 million Uigur Chinese Muslims so that their brain can be useful for China's growth and advancement and not to promote Arabian religion and culture. In Britain, the call it re-radicalizaton of Muslims but they serve the same goal, de-program people from Islam.

Keep deceiving yourself. this was recently sold church in upstate New York to Mosque


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SV4pURZYOy0

true2god:
You are right, even some churches are being converted to clubs and banks. The issue is that Muslims consider Christianity as an enemy and so it is a propaganda victory if a church is bought and converted to mosque. Club owners and bankers who converted churches to clubs and parks have nothing to gain going to social media to make known their 'victory' because it will have no impact on their business.

Europe, as at today, is no longer religious and many are turning into agnostics and atheist. So it is futile using an old church bought by Muslims as a propaganda tool and Europeans no longer sell their old churches to Muslims because of this. For the fact that few and insignificant number of churches are converted to mosque does not eliminate the fact that Islam is an Arabs imperial movement whose motive and global domination and control. I at times wonder how you think.

The Chinese call Islam mental disease and are currently re-progamming over 2 million Uigur Chinese Muslims so that their brain can be useful for China's growth and advancement and not to promote Arabian religion and culture. In Britain, the call it re-radicalizaton of Muslims but they serve the same goal, de-program people from Islam.

someone with a little sense of humanity in them would not support Chinese treatment of her Muslim citizens. Don't allow hatred to cloud your senses

Empiree:
Keep deceiving yourself. this was recently sold church in upstate New York to Mosque


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SV4pURZYOy0

someone with a little sense of humanity in them would not support Chinese treatment of her Muslim citizens. Don't allow hatred to cloud your senses

The US and Europe are gradually turning their back from religion while promoting atheism, LGBT and Islam. That's a fact. You need to do a YouTube search to see churches converted to clubs, mosques, parks and banks, they are many. The problem Muslim have is that, while the club owners and bankers see no big deal in the transaction, the Muslims see it as a propaganda victory and a sign of religious superiority. Some churches are equally converted to temple but no one heard about it but Muslims, being a religion built on lies and propaganda will use every 'success' for dawah and Islamic brainwashing and indoctrination, especially among those who are ignorant of Islam.

On the China Muslims, you are asking for sympathy for Muslims, you are right because we are all human beings before associating with any religion. I want to ask you one question, how many Churches, temple, synagogues do we have in Saudi Arabia? If Saudi Arabia can ban the practice of Judaism, Christianity, Hinduism and Budism, don't you think China also has right to ban Islam and prevents its growth? If the penalty for leaving Islam is death in Saudi Arabia, don't you think China, or any reasonable country, also has the right to restrict Islam in their country? You can't give what you don't have. You can't seek justice when Islam is the only religion that oppress religious minorities and seek to destroy or dominate other religion and culture.

true2god:
The US and Europe are gradually turning their back from religion while promoting atheism, LGBT and Islam. That's a fact. You need to do a YouTube search to see churches converted to clubs, mosques, parks and banks, they are many.

which means they have realized that CHRISTIANITY was scam. They have utilized the better part of it and left Africans with shakushaku Christianity. They have no choice but to abandoned it bcuz it doesn't fit modern lifestyles like Islam. Christianity you have in Nigeria is nothing but shakushaku abandoned by Europeans

Empiree:
which means they have realized that CHRISTIANITY was scam. They have utilized the better part of it and left Africans with shakushaku Christianity. They have no choice but to abandoned it bcuz it doesn't fit modern lifestyles like Islam. Christianity you have in Nigeria is nothing but shakushaku abandoned by Europeans

In essence, from your logic, since Christianity is fake, Islam, LGBT, atheism, and other new age practices are OK. Don't get it twisted, Islam is still 1% of the US population (over 90% being immigrants from Islamic shitholes) and still less than 5% of the population in the EU (more than 95% being immigrants). The combined average of Christians in the US and Europe is still above 80% of the population. So chill bro.

Joseph Stalin of Russia, between 1920 to 1939, declared Christianity as illegal, destroyed all churches, killed most of the Bishops and declared Russia officially an atheist country. When, in 1941, the Germans Wehrmacht overrun Russia and Russia about to be completely annihilated, the same Joseph Stalin, in the public prayed 'Oh God, come and help us'. He called some Bishop still alive, rebuild many Churches and asked them to start praying for Russia's victory against the Germans. This is how the Russia's Orthodox churches were restored. People will always forget God, especially when the going is good and prosperous, this is the case of Europe and the US as at today.

You seem to ignore the standard you created concerning the Chinese' interment of about 2million Muslims and Saudi Arabia destroying other religion and killing apostates who leave Islam. What do you make of the 2 scenarios?

true2god:
In essence, from your logic, since Christianity is fake, Islam, LGBT, atheism, and other new age practices are OK. Don't get it twisted, Islam is still 1% of the US population (over 90% being immigrants from Islamic shitholes) and still less than 5% of the population in the EU (more than 95% being immigrants). The combined average of Christians in the US and Europe is still above 80% of the population. So chill bro.

but you have said these places in the West are not really CHRISTIANs but "CHRISTIANs". It means they are the same people in Homosexuality, atheism etc. In another word they don't really have faith. That's clear from their secular views. They mock their god(Jesus) 24/7

true2god:
.

Joseph Stalin of Russia, between 1920 to 1939, declared Christianity as illegal, destroyed all churches, killed most of the Bishops and declared Russia officially an atheist country. When, in 1941, the Germans Wehrmacht overrun Russia and Russia about to be completely annihilated, the same Joseph Stalin, in the public prayed 'Oh God, come and help us'. He called some Bishop still alive, rebuild many Churches and asked them to start praying for Russia's victory against the Germans. This is how the Russia's Orthodox churches were restored. People will always forget God, especially when the going is good and prosperous, this is the case of Europe and the US as at today.

this is 21st century. They aren't going back to religious way of life anymore. The way they mock God not in the West is worst than 1930s. So you can see why Islam is standing tall despite so these challenges of atheism, homosexuality the religion is waxing strong. But when the same vices hit CHRISTIANITY the religion collapse. The only traces is by name. And don't ever compared yourself with Orthodox CHRISTIANITY. They have more sense than majority of the Christian world. They will never allow a man marrying another man have have marriage certificate. But modern Western CHRISTIANITY which majority of Africans especially Nigerians subscribed to is a fallacy. It is actually atheistic in disguise.

true2god:


You seem to ignore the standard you created concerning the Chinese' interment of about 2million Muslims and Saudi Arabia destroying other religion and killing apostates who leave Islam. What do you make of the 2 scenarios?

guy, could you please point where Saudi cages non muslims in open concentration camps, burn down their houses of worship and forced them to accept Islam?. I don't see that. Kindly provide valid source. Thank you


**Modified**

There are nonmuslims in Saudi Arabia. Only Mecca and Medina they aren't allowed. Did you read a guy in other thread over a wk ago gave testimony that he has CHRISTIAN friends who are teachers in Saudi Arabia?. Maybe you missed it. The guy is not muslim

Empiree:
but you have said these places in the West are not really CHRISTIANs but "CHRISTIANs". It means they are the same people in Homosexuality, atheism etc. In another word they don't really have faith. That's clear from their secular views. They mock their god(Jesus) 24/7

Maybe you have a comprehension problem but let me make it simpler for you to understand. What I am saying is that the west was built on Judeo-christian principles but many of them are abandoning their traditional values for new age doctrines, beliefs and lifestyles, some of which are tolerating the LGBT movement, atheism and Islam. In the last 40 year this 'Trinity' was not tolerated as it is now and the current liberal values make people less religious but more materialist. The fruit of which is the gradual moral decay in the society. And if you go through our last engagement, I told you that the west is going through a cosmic process of downfall and destruction for all these vices to be happening and tolerated in the society.

Empiree:
this is 21st century. They aren't going back to religious way of life anymore. The way they mock God not in the West is worst than 1930s. So you can see why Islam is standing tall despite so these challenges of atheism, homosexuality the religion is waxing strong. But when the same vices hit CHRISTIANITY the religion collapse. The only traces is by name. And don't ever compared yourself with Orthodox CHRISTIANITY. They have more sense than majority of the Christian world. They will never allow a man marrying another man have have marriage certificate. But modern Western CHRISTIANITY which majority of Africans especially Nigerians subscribed to is a fallacy. It is actually atheistic in disguise.

You may be right, neither are they going to be Islamic in the nearest future. The worst that will happen is the Spanish model if the Islamist become populous and, as expected, become more assertive, troublesome and violent as their immigration and natural population grows in the west. You understand what I mean by 'the Spanish model'? And for the collapse of Christianity, it will remain the most populous religion worldwide till Mohammed bow and call Jesus 'My Lord and my Messiah'

Empiree:
guy, could you please point where Saudi cages non muslims in open concentration camps, burn down their houses of worship and forced them to accept Islam?. I don't see that. Kindly provide valid source. Thank you


**Modified**

There are nonmuslims in Saudi Arabia. Only Mecca and Medina they aren't allowed. Did you read a guy in other thread over a wk ago gave testimony that he has CHRISTIAN friends who are teachers in Saudi Arabia?. Maybe you missed it. The guy is not muslim

The saudis, at least in this modern and information era, have not caged non-muslims but they still kill apostates and never allowed religious freedom. A christian can not build a church, a Hindu cannot build a temple, a Jew cannot build synagogues in Saudi Arabia. The Jews and the Christians were in mecca and Medina long before Islam but Mohammed promised to expel and do expelled them from their ancestral homes because they were not muslims. For now, the Chinese government have not expelled the Muslims from their ancestral homes but Mohammed and Muslims did that to non-muslims. Remember Khaibar?

true2god:
Maybe you have a comprehension problem but let me make it simpler for you to understand. What I am saying is that the west was built on Judeo-christian principles but many of them are abandoning their traditional values for new age doctrines, beliefs and lifestyles, some of which are tolerating the LGBT movement, atheism and Islam.

Did I say I didn't understand?. You don't need to lure islam with LGBT/atheism. Islam will survive with or without anyone. So simply say they have abandoned Jesus Christ for the devil bcuz Jesus had nothing to do with LGBT movement and atheism.

In the last 40 year this 'Trinity' was not tolerated as it is now and the current liberal values make people less religious but more materialist. The fruit of which is the gradual moral decay in the society. And if you go through our last engagement, I told you that the west is going through a cosmic process of downfall and destruction for all these vices to be happening and tolerated in the society.

tell this to the church. It is CHRISTIANs that usually tolerate vices in the name of civilization.

You may be right, neither are they going to be Islamic in the nearest future. The worst that will happen is the Spanish model if the Islamist become populous and, as expected, become more assertive, troublesome and violent as their immigration and natural population grows in the west. You understand what I mean by 'the Spanish model'? And for the collapse of Christianity, it will remain the most populous religion worldwide till Mohammed bow and call Jesus 'My Lord and my Messiah'

thank you for confirming the collapse of CHRISTIANITY. @bold will never happen bcuz, there is no ref for it in your Book.

The saudis, at least in this modern and information era, have not caged non-muslims but they still kill apostates and never allowed religious freedom

Propaganda!. Give us valid evidence of apostates they have killed

true2god:
A christian can not build a church, a Hindu cannot build a temple, a Jew cannot build synagogues in Saudi Arabia.

how many Hindu temples and Jewish synagogues are there in Vatican?. Zero.

The Jews and the Christians were in mecca and Medina long before Islam but Mohammed promised to expel and do expelled them from their ancestral homes because they were not muslims. For now, the Chinese government have not expelled the Muslims from their ancestral homes but Mohammed and Muslims did that to non-muslims. Remember Khaibar?

Their "ancestral homes" indeed. Maybe you should revisit your Bible where Abraham destroyed idols and kicked out indigenous people and Deuteronomy 12:3

It was the same way Muhammad (saw) kicked he's and CHRISTIANS out which is now evident in 21st century. W can see they tolerate all types of vices now. He did the right thing by kicking them out. Otherwise Mecca and Medina would have been like the Sun City Las Vegas.

Chinese govt wouldn't do that bcuz Muslims violated nothing in the land.

Empiree:
how many Hindu temples and Jewish synagogues are there in Vatican?. Zero.

This is a stale Islamic argument to defend the evil of Mohammed and Islam. The Vatican is the largest chapel in Rome, Italy, and was given an autonomous status around the 1930s. The Vatican is like the redemption camp in Ogun state headed by the Pope, just as the Redemption camp is headed by Pastor Adeboye. The Vatican is a small territory like the Redemption camp but Muslims, as liars and 'confusionist', will always defend the atrocities of the Mohammed to justify Islam. The vatican, at no time in history, was never associated with Islam but Saudi Arabia has a large Jewish, Christian and Hindu population thousands of years before Mohammed's genocide against non-Muslims.

Empiree:
Their "ancestral homes" indeed. Maybe you should revisit your Bible where Abraham destroyed idols and kicked out indigenous people and Deuteronomy 12:3

It was the same way Muhammad (saw) kicked he's and CHRISTIANS out which is now evident in 21st century. W can see they tolerate all types of vices now. He did the right thing by kicking them out. Otherwise Mecca and Medina would have been like the Sun City Las Vegas.

Mohammed kicked out Christians from Mecca and Medina (and Muslims are happy) but you (Muslims) are complaining how the Americans are bombing the Muslim countries and how the Jews are 'oppressing' the Palestinians. That's the law of karma and it will remain so till Jesus comes back.

Empiree:
Chinese govt wouldn't do that bcuz Muslims violated nothing in the land.

Islam violated every value the Chinese authorities stood for hence their attempt to remove Islamic indoctrination from their society. China is a country poised for economic and technological explosion but Islam retards scientific development hence can't tolerate Islam in their society. Muslims will surely violate Chinese laws and will surely pose a threat to national security ones their population reaches more than 10% hence the pro-active measure to avoid that. Mohammed was also a peaceful man in Mecca, when he was weak, but showed his true colour immediately he conquered Medina. This is a standard Islamic format for 1400 years: be peaceful and preach tolerance when you are weak and attack when your population has increased and you are strong. Your prophet said and I quote:

When the Prophet intended to go on an expedition, he would pretend to go somewhere else and he would say, “War is deception.” (Sunan Abu Dawud 2637).

Narrated Jabir bin 'Abdullah: The Prophet said, "War is deceit."(Sahih Bukhari 4:52:269)

true2god:
This is a stale Islamic argument to defend the evil of Mohammed and Islam. The Vatican is the largest chapel in Rome, Italy, and was given an autonomous status around the 1930s. The Vatican is like the redemption camp in Ogun state headed by the Pope, just as the Redemption camp is headed by Pastor Adeboye. The Vatican is a small territory like the Redemption camp but Muslims, as liars and 'confusionist', will always defend the atrocities of the Mohammed to justify Islam. The vatican, at no time in history, was ever associated with Islam but Saudi Arabia has a large Jewish, Christian and Hindu population thousands of years before Mohammed's genocide against non-Muslims.

oh yea, redemption camp indeed. Mecca and Medina are redemption camp, too. When Jews and nasara(not CHRISTIANs- CHRISTIANITY was founded by Paul) were in Medina, they were simply muslims by faith and loved by be Allah bcuz they followed commandments until they disbelieved and disobeyed. They they got kicked out.

Mohammed kicked out Christians from Mecca and Medina (and Muslims are happy) but you (Muslims) are complaining how the Americans are bombing the Muslim countries and how the Jews are 'oppressing' the Palestinians. That's the law of karma and it will remain so till Jesus comes back.

the same way they were kicked out in Europe by CHRISTIANs. Did your Bible not informed us of destruction of locals by Jews and CHRISTIANS?. Did your Bible not inform you that the only people allowed in the holy are believers with righteous conducts?. When Muslims ruled Jerusalem CHRISTIANs and Jews lived peacefully with them. But now that Jews are ruling Jerusalem they are intolerant of muslims and CHRISTIANS. Why are you acting as if they cared about you in Jerusalem?. Did you not see how they treat CHRISTIAN Africans?.

true2god:

Islam violated every value the Chinese authorities stood for hence their attempt to remove Islamic indoctrination from their society. China is a country poised for economic and technological explosion but Islam retards scientific development hence can't tolerate Islam in their society. Muslims will surely violate Chinese laws and will surely pose a threat to national security ones their population reaches more than 10% hence the pro-active measure to avoid that. Mohammed was also a peaceful man in Mecca, when he was weak, but showed his true colour immediately he conquered Medina. This is a standard Islamic format for 1400 years: be peaceful and preach tolerance when you are weak and attack when your population has increased and you are strong. Your prophet said and I quote:

When the Prophet intended to go on an expedition, he would pretend to go somewhere else and he would say, “War is deception.” (Sunan Abu Dawud 2637).

Narrated Jabir bin 'Abdullah: The Prophet said, "War is deceit."(Sahih Bukhari 4:52:269)

so Muslims should be killed and their houses of worship burned down bcuz they are different?. Where is humanity in you?. Islam had always been in China for as long as it existed. How does it Chinese values when the adherents are Chinese themselves?. Islam is universal religion. The reason why world leaders are quite is bcuz of economy interested. Had it been a Muslim country treating others like that there world would go in flames already.