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Re: Origin Of Various Igbo Clans by goalernestman: 9:43pm On Dec 18, 2019 |
Pchidexy: But your kings are from this root i mentions above |
Re: Origin Of Various Igbo Clans by Scottallen: 3:38pm On Dec 20, 2019 |
goalernestman: It doesn't matter. The vast majority of Igbo people have lived on our land for thousands of years. We were created in Igbo land |
Re: Origin Of Various Igbo Clans by Bobotic(m): 8:59am On Mar 21, 2020 |
Re: Origin Of Various Igbo Clans by wealthtrak: 11:07pm On Jun 30, 2021 |
Abagworo:Insightful... Ekoi or Ejegbam descent in Abiriba. |
Re: Origin Of Various Igbo Clans by wealthtrak: 11:47pm On Jun 30, 2021 |
Pchidexy: |
Re: Origin Of Various Igbo Clans by wealthtrak: 11:52pm On Jun 30, 2021 |
Abagworo:Ruggedman. |
Re: Origin Of Various Igbo Clans by TA4TA4: 7:17am On Jul 15, 2021 |
Re: Origin Of Various Igbo Clans by Uniportadmision: 8:37am On Jul 19, 2021 |
Interesting thread, I've been following this for years now. Abagworo and ChinenyeN should revive this thread. I've been searching for something about the Ikeduru Avuvu axis origins but can't find any, but from previous accounts about the Mbaitolu people and since they share the same cultural affinity, safe to say they're all of Isu ancestry? |
Re: Origin Of Various Igbo Clans by ChinenyeN(m): 1:02am On Jul 21, 2021 |
Uniportadmision, I am not sure that Avuvu shares the same ancestral legacy with Isu in Ikeduru. I suspect they don’t because there is one tradition I know of from Mbaise area called “Ohuhu la Avuvu”. This expression refers to all the communities in Mbaise that are “Nfulala” as well as an offshoot that moved away from the region. There are some that believe that Avuvu is the offshoot that moved away. According to oral tradition in Ahiara, Avuvu was a sister clan. It used to be that Ahiara was comprised of two communities, the Odojianunu and Avuvu. Some hardship or bad blood (not sure which) caused the bulk of Avuvu to emigrate out of the “Nfulala” region. According to oral tradition, this migration event is associated with the time that the Imo beheading was occurring. If the oral traditions are to be taken seriously to an extent, then it is possible that Avuvu was forced to move out due to what might be devastating ecological events (i.e. drought, less arable land, etc); the same ecological events that cause Imo beheading. If so, Avuvu is actually an Nfulala group related to Ahiara in Mbaise explicitly, and then secondarily related to the rest of Nfulala (Ezinihitte, Nguru, etc) by virtue autochthony. Finally, the Ohuhu/Nfulala traditionally consider the Isu to be strangers to them. There are no traditions that acknowledge heritage with Isu. Likewise, Isu does not have any traditions that associate themselves with the Nfulala region. As a consequence, Avuvu (if it is the same Avuvu of in the “Ohuhu la Avuvu” tradition) is not of Isu ancestry. I am assuming that since you asked about Avuvu, they are your community (feel free to correct me if my assumption is incorrect). In which case, I would certainly encourage you to inquire if a similar “Ohuhu la Avuvu” tradition exists for you all. It is possible that after 500+ years of acculturation with Isu, some things might have been forgotten. Although, it’s also possible to say that some things could have been encoded and preserved in some oral traditions, especially, if we take the suspected time period into consideration (Imo beheading and other ecological changes). |
Re: Origin Of Various Igbo Clans by Uniportadmision: 2:21pm On Jul 22, 2021 |
ChinenyeN: Very interesting submission here, thank you. I've not really had the time to travel home and research these things myself, the indigenes over here don't seem to have an interest in these things. I've also tried to get resources online but nothing concrete yet. This is actually the first time I'm hearing of an Nfulala group, always thought the Igbo tribes either came from one of the big groups of Isu, Uratta, awka, Etche/Ngor. |
Re: Origin Of Various Igbo Clans by ChinenyeN(m): 1:44am On Jul 23, 2021 |
Well, Uniportadmision there’s not really an “Nfulala” group. “Nfulala” is just a term used to explain the belief that they (the communities in Mbaise/northern Ngwa) did not come from anywhere; that they either sprang into existence or were created in their current location. It’s not that they share ancestry or share clan identity. Nfulala is not a "clan" or "group" in the same sense that say Awka might be. Uniportadmision: Hm. It doesn't quite do it justice to speak about it in terms of "big groups", because that's not really the case. Let me see how I can explain this. We can basically delineate four types of community origins within "Igboland". I will call them "tiers". Tier 1: These are communities that claim to not have come from anywhere. These are autochthonous communities. They believe they either just manifested, or were created or have simply always been there and have no memory of having migrated from anywhere else. Tier 2: These are communities that migrated from Tier 1 communities directly or indirectly. Indirectly would mean that they migrated from a fellow Tier 2 community. Tier 3: These are communities that have traditions of migrating into “Igboland” from what we might consider as "non-Igbo" areas, or from just outside of our modern definition of "Igboland". Tier 4: These are communities that migrated from a Tier 3 community directly or indirectly. Indirectly would mean that they migrated from a fellow Tier 4 community. So let's take the Ikeduru/Mbaitolu as a case-in-point. Now, if we assume that the Avuvu in Ikeduru is the same Avuvu in the "Ohuhu la Avuvu" tradition, then we can say that the Ikeduru/Mbaitolu area is mostly composed of Tier 2 communities, since the Isu who make up the bulk of Mbaitolu have their homeland in the Orlu area (which is a Tier 1 community), and Avuvu would have its homeland in the "Nfulala" region (which is a Tier 1 group of communities). Even, we can do the same with Etche and Ngor Okpuala. Traditions suggest that the communities in Etche and Ngor are a primarily a mix of Uratta and Mbaise/Ngwa. The homelands for Uratta is a Tier 1 community. Likewise the homeland for Mbaise/Ngwa is a Tier 1 community. So with that, we can consider Etche and Ngor communities to primarily consist of Tier 2 communities. So the picture is very complex and there aren’t really any “big groups”, in the way that you might be thinking of it. Most Igbo communities are Tier 2 and Tier 4. |
Re: Origin Of Various Igbo Clans by Uniportadmision: 1:40pm On Jul 23, 2021 |
ChinenyeN: I like the way you divided them into tiers, it all makes sense. In one of the other threads, I saw one of your postulations about something concerning this tier groups, our discussion reminded me of it. It was about the movement of the proto-Igboid speakers into the present S. East and S. South, you were of the opinion that the movement didn't happen from central Igboland to South as thought by many schools of thought (including me), rather, that it could've been from South to northern Igboland, citing the vast Igboid lects of the South are more than the north especially the Ekpeye group as evidence. If you say Isu, Uratta, Awka Ezinihitte are tier 1... Etche/Ngor, Ngwa, Owerri etc as tier 2.., Why then would you think the southern Igboid groups might be the cradle of first settlement? When the influence of the said tier 2 is all over the south, Route one from Ohaji Egbema in Imo state to Ogba, Ndoni then to Ahaoda in Rivers state From Ezinihitte to Ngor Okpala in Imo state then to Etche, Ikwerre LGA, this two groups now flank Emouha (another ikwerre group) which then connects to choba Port Harcourt proper. Route two From the other side... From Ngor okpala(Imo) to Owerinta to Ngwa (Abia), it has been speculated that the Ngwa and Ikwerre(some parts, Obio?) share kinship, the movement from Ngwa zone into Obio zone (Port Harcourt) is another angle to look into. Now through different routes one and two, maybe even more routes, they still converge around Port Harcourt. I also think another route might exist from the returning Aniomas back to Igboland during the Benin conflict through Delta to Mbiama then Ahoada zones where they met and mixed with the other groups, Perhaps the reason most around that zone say they came from Benin? Please take note of this movements and influence because I think it might be the reason for the wide range of Igboid lects around these zones, because in these zones you can notice the different dialects of the said tier 1 and 2 groups, but you can't get many of these southern unique lects going up north. My take is, the groups you mentioned as tier one and two are less diverse because they're still pure, rather the reason for the wide variety of unique Igboid dialects down south is as a result of convergence of different groups around that area through different routes while being influenced by different cultures while migrating. Well, that's my hypothesis anyway, could be wrong, but I find it logical. |
Re: Origin Of Various Igbo Clans by ChinenyeN(m): 11:01pm On Jul 23, 2021 |
Uniportadmision, perhaps I may need to expand on some things a bit. I feel you may be misunderstanding part of the discussion in the thread you are referencing. While it is true that I am not a proponent of the current, orthodox "Hinterland Hypothesis", it does not mean that I believe the hypothesis has zero merit. Allow me to explain. As it is right now, the academia's school of thought (which is what is taught to and rehearsed by many Igbo people) is that the Hinterland Hypothesis is how the Igbo-speaking region came to be populated and how Igbo-speaking groups came to be settled in their present locations. However, this premise is not supported when you examine the autochthonous cases such as Nfulala, Uratta, Awka, Akpor, etc. It shows that the Hinterland Hypothesis has a glaring hole that the academia is essentially ignoring. In other words, the hypothesis is not sufficient for explaining the origins of various communities. However, it is sufficient in explaining one thing: The Isuama expansion from their autochthonous homeland. So in fact, I do believe that the Hinterland Hypothesis has merit if limited particularly to explaining the Isuama expansion, and the possible effect it had on the Igbo-speaking region. We often hear a lot about Isu expanding southwards, but in reality, traditions show that the Isuama expansion was almost a 360 degree event. They radiated from their autochthonous homeland within Orlu-Awka axis in almost all directions. I believe this has significant implications in understanding how culture and language are expressed in surviving Igbo-speaking communities. In other words, the academia is missing out on what I believe is a key chance to potentially understanding how and why Igbo language and culture seems notably homogenized in a region where ethnic identity is highly balkanized and community origin suggests that most groups are unaffiliated with each other. This is an area that the academia has not explored, and I believe this is what the Hinterland Hypothesis can best explain. Now the discussion that I and AjaanaOka were having at the time was based on AjaanaOka's approach of using linguistics to better understand the pre-history of the area. You see, like myself, AjaanaOka also finds the Hinterland Hypothesis to be inappropriate for explaining what it claims to explain. Before moving further, it is important to make two things clear. 1) There is a difference between a language and a people. In many ways we can correlate them (sometimes almost one-for-one), but there is enough of a distinction that we can sometimes speak about the historical movement of a language as separate from the modern people who speak said language. So much of what AjaanaOka and I discussed in that thread is mostly specific to explaining the linguistic branching and the movement of the language family. 2) We need to put this into context. Though our discussion at that time concerned Igbo history and origins, the Igbo history and origins part can be considered almost secondary. The real topic of discussion was whether or not the Niger-Benue confluence theory holds in general (and specifically for Igbo-speaking people). The Niger-Benue confluence theory suggests that Igbo migrated in a straight southward movement from the Niger-Benue region. The Igbo academia piggy-backed on this theory by suggesting that the migration came down from the Niger-Benue and led to the Amaigbo-Orlu axis, which became the central homeland from which Igbo communities spread and settled in their present location. Hopefully I have not added any further confusion by attempting to clarify these two points. Ultimately, what I am trying to get at is that there are a lot of topics that can be discussed in their own right (i.e. the YEAI language family, the Hinterland Hypothesis, Niger-Benue confluence, etc.), but there is a connection between all of these discrete topics that can possibly shed more light on Igbo linguistic (an non-linguistic) origins. That connection is what AjaanaOka and I were attempting to reconcile (or interrogate or scrutinize, in fact) in that other thread you referenced. Now, all of that having been said, our discussion in that thread more so suggests that rather than the Igbo language family pushing south from the Niger-Benue confluence, it rather pushed east from the Edo-Ondo borderlands. This postulation is arrived at using historical linguistics. See, something that is very much agreed upon by linguists is that locations with the greatest degree of language diversity, often may represent ideal candidates for identifying where a language family might have started branching. AjaanaOka suggests that this facet of historical linguistics can also be applied to the YEAI language family (of which Igbo belongs). Now, within the YEAI domain (the area covering Yoruba-speaking communities, Edo-speaking communities, Akoko-speaking communities and Igbo-speaking communities), there is one specific location that has the highest language diversity, being the Edo-Ondo borderland. Indigenous dialects for all the major language branches of YEAI are represented in this small space, with the exception of Igbo. So the postulation put forth by AjaanaOka is that the Igbo-speaking branch likely also branched off from somewhere within that region. As part of the postulation, he suggests that the Igbo-speaking branch might have drifted south, before effectively expanding northwards. The basis for this postulation is again the high degree of language diversity that exists within the Ekpeye-Ikwerre axis. This area has reportedly more language diversity than the rest of the Igbo-speaking region combined. Personally, I have explanations for confounding factors that might explain why that may be the case. Nevertheless, I still find AjaanaOka's original premise to be reasonable. Now relating this to the rest of your post, we could say that the discussion that AjaanaOka and I had in that thread is not the same discussion you and I may be having now. What we discussed then was primarily in pre-history. The time-period between 5000 - 3000 BCE. What you and I are discussing now is more recent, perhaps between 800 - 1800 CE. These are not arbitrary dates, by the way. The 5000 - 3000 BCE dating represents the current academic standing on when the Igbo branch of YEAI approximately began to diverge. The 800 - 1800 CE dating represents the time period between the activities of the lost smithing community that inhabited Igbo Ukwu area (dated at 9th century) and the most well known, recent migrations that were happening up to the 19th century in Igboland. Basically, 5000 - 3000 BCE is pre-history, and 800 - 1800 CE is the time-period that our oral traditions capture. Hewu. I feel I may have inadvertently written too much at this point. Let me stop here so I don't overwhelm the thread. I'll be back to touch on the routing that you mentioned. |
Re: Origin Of Various Igbo Clans by ChinenyeN(m): 4:46am On Jul 24, 2021 |
Uniportadmision: I think there might be some confusion here as well. See, unlike the Igbo academia, I respect the existence of autochthonous traditions. So I do not believe that any one area or group is the cradle of the first settlement per se. Autochthonous communities are actually scattered throughout the Igbo speaking area, which makes it impossible to make the claim of any single one of them being the sole cradle of the first settlement. So what I actually believe is that there are various "cradles", and so for the time being, I will consider there to be a one-for-one relationship between autochthony and such cradle (hence the Tier 1 label I gave to the autochthonous communities). Now, keep in mind, this only applies to the limits of what our oral traditions can capture. In other words, the time period between 800 - 1800 CE. We can consider this recent memory. Then there is the historical linguistics which goes beyond recent memory. The key thing here is that historical linguistics is really more so about linguistics. I stated in one of my earlier post that a language and a people can be discussed separately to an extent. So this is where things deviate from speaking about the people and speaking more so about the languages. With the historical linguistic aspect, we look at the various isoglosses (or language features) found throughout the Igbo-speaking region. One thing of note is that the southernmost part of Igboland (within the Ekpeye-Ikwerre axis) has an unprecedented amount of diversity. From a historical linguistic perspective, it could suggest an ideal candidate for identifying where a language family branching might have occurred. In other words, applying historical linguistics on the Igbo-speaking area at the cursory level suggests that the earliest Igboid language branches (or lects, or dialects) within the Igbo-speaking region possibly branched from the southern Igboland. Now, are we saying this is the definitive truth? No. It is just where the analysis leads so far. As we perform more analysis and uncover more things, the picture could become different. However, this idea that the earliest Igboid language branches are represented within the southern Igbo-speaking region has support. I can provide a brief overview on a couple key evidences that seemingly support it. One key support is that linguistic analysis on the various Igboid lects suggest that Ekpeye is among the older (if not oldest) surviving Igboid branch. Ekpeye is on the southern-most "westerly" end of the Igbo-speaking region. It sits right next to the stretch of communities with a high degree of linguistic diversity, and that provides further support for the proposed linguistic antiquity of the region. Another key support is the stark linguistic shift that one will experience once leaving the Isu areas (the "central homeland" ) and venturing deeper into southern Igbo-speaking regions. Yes, it is true that there is linguistic diversity throughout the Igbo-speaking region, even down to the village level. It is also true that the various lects exist in a continuum. However, there is still a notable linguistic shift that occurs between the central and southern belts. An analysis of this shift shows that the area from Ogba (in Rivers) to Nsulu (in Abia) shares some specific grammatical and lexical features that do not appear to be commonly shared by the rest of the Igbo-speaking region. The added fact that these specific grammatical and lexical features are shared with Ekpeye (an Igboid branch that is considered the oldest surviving branch), further buttresses the claim of linguistic antiquity in the southern Igbo-speaking region. Uniportadmision:So to finally answer the quoted question here. It is not that I believe the southern Igboid groups are the cradle of the first settlement. It's just that the historical linguistics suggest that the earliest Igboid branching might have been in the southern Igbo-speaking region. I hope that clarifies it up somewhat at least. In other words, we can make separate claims about the history of language innovation vs the history of settlement in the region. |
Re: Origin Of Various Igbo Clans by Abagworo(m): 7:51pm On Jul 25, 2021 |
ChinenyeN: Ahiara is Isu. In essense being related to Ahiara only cements the likelihood of Avuvu being of Isu in ancient times. |
Re: Origin Of Various Igbo Clans by Uniportadmision: 9:51pm On Jul 25, 2021 |
Dear ChinenyeN, I always get excited whenever I see your mentions and enjoy your posts as they're well and intelligently put. However, this ChinenyeN: I might have a little disagreement on the above, I see that academia linguist and some history enthusiasts (including you) believe wherever a language becomes most diverse could suggest its cradle, but there are other important factors that should be put into consideration like population density of such an area. Take a look at the Isu, awka, Urrata zone and see how dense those zones are, tier 2 groups claim to have migrated from those zones, we take this to be very logical because when an area becomes too dense, it's inhabitants tend to search for new lands to occupy. For me, a language is most pure and unadulterated when it's close to its original source devoid of any foreign influence. Going down south or up north you'd begin to get variations in dialect because of other foreign influence on the language. Now one evidence provided by your friend on the other thread why an area should be considered as first area of language dispersal based on its immense dialect diversity, he referenced the development of the English language and other Germanic languages, citing an area around Germany with so much diversity in dialect resembling the old English, but he didn't put into consideration how dense in population those zones are. Okay let's take a look at England, the English language was developed there and that is the place you get it's purest form. When they (Britain) colonised the world and exported their language, we can see the English language variations developed in different countries because of foreign influences. In Nigeria, we have a mix of the pure English, American, and our own pidgin English, even in places like Jamaica, you get a different kind of structure. The English language and its adulterated structure is more diverse here in Nigeria than it's birth place in England, do we claim it's development? Heck we've even introduced some English words into our local languages and vice versa. What if some of these southern Igboid dialects are just adulterated, pidgin or foreign influenced forms of its pure Igboid form? |
Re: Origin Of Various Igbo Clans by Uniportadmision: 10:07pm On Jul 25, 2021 |
Abagworo: I think so too, not sure, in fact I suspect the Isu might be or close to being the Igbo Genesis. |
Re: Origin Of Various Igbo Clans by ChinenyeN(m): 12:29am On Jul 26, 2021 |
Abagworo: Perhaps I should add some additional clarification. I am aware that Ezinihitte uses the term Isoma to refer to the northern parts of Mbaise (which include Ahiara and Ekwereazu). By virtue of this alone, it means that Ahiara and Ekwereazu would have to be Isu. Following this logic, Avuvu in Ikeduru (if they are the same Avuvu of the "Ohuhu la Avuvu" tradition) would have to be Isu. However, this is where my caveat comes in. I am not entirely convinced that Ahiara (primarily) and perhaps Ekwereazu are actually Isu. I have based my suspicions on two things: 1) Autochthony and 2) Historical linguistics. With respect to autochthony, we are all aware that the Isu homeland is further north. In fact, there is a strong likelihood that the Isu homeland might have actually been closer to (if not within) present-day Anambra. Ahiara (as well as Ekwereazu) claims autochthony within Mbaise. We know that the Isu pushing further south is more so recent memory. It is captured within our various oral traditions, so the Isuama expansion likely began anytime during or after the period between 700 - 1000 CE. For Ahiara to be Isu, we would need to reconcile their autochthonous traditions, which imply an oral tradition that predates 700 CE, suggesting that they may not be Isu. With respect to historical linguistics, what we can classify as "Isu-type" speech variants and "Ngwa-type" speech variants are markedly dissimilar. Linguistically speaking, we can be certain that the "Isu-type" of speech innovations deviated differently from the "Ngwa-type" of speech innovations. To that end, I have actually met two Ahiara speakers who sounded to me so close to the "Ngwa-type" of speech variant that I initially confused them as speaking Ngwa or Echie when I first met them. They informed me that they were speaking Ahiara. Now, I know just as much as anyone that language does not equal a community's origin. But when we place language innovations and known parts of history within context, we can point a picture of the past (usually subjective and left up to interpretation). So finally, between the claims of autochthony, Isu homeland being further north, and the historical linguistics, I am not so convinced that Ahiara is Isu. I can be more so convinced about Ekwereazu, perhaps, but my own encounters lead me to suspect that there might be more that can be looked into on the part of Ahiara. Now, all that having been said, if we stick to what we currently know as the sentiments, claims and traditions on the ground (without giving them any further scrutiny), then we will have to conceded that Ahiara and Ekwereazu are likely Isu (if not definitively Isu). |
Re: Origin Of Various Igbo Clans by ChinenyeN(m): 2:21am On Jul 26, 2021 |
Uniportadmision:Truth be told, I miss having these types of discussions here on NL. So I find myself just as much excited to see that I have a new mention. Now, there are two things I find myself compelled to push back against in your most recent post. Uniportadmision:From the perspective of linguists, there is no such thing as a "pure" and "unadulterated" speech variant. All speech variants undergo innovation no matter how isolated or near to their original source you may find them. This is why linguists believe that all languages are really just dialects. The concept of a "pure" and "unadulterated" speech variant only exists when a society has introduced standardization. Without such standardization, you cannot claim a "pure" and "unadulterated" speech variant, linguistically speaking. And when you scrutinize it further, you come to realize that standardization is more so a sociological and political phenomenon and not a strictly linguistic phenomenon. This is why linguists typically do not describe language zones or languages as "original" or "pure". So this is not a metric we can use in our discussion. Uniportadmision:On the contrary, AjaanaOka did in fact take into consideration population density. In the thread we are referencing, he rightly noted that most discussions on population density within Igboland are hyperfocused on the Northern Igbo Plateau and ignore the fact that other locations with comparable density exist outside of said Northern Igbo Plateau. This is one of the things (among many) that both AjaanaOka and I feel have been ignored by the Igbo academia, which in turn also is one of the the holes in the Hinterland Hypothesis that has not (and probably cannot) be filled. Hence why we suspect that the definitive answer to Igbo genesis may not reside in the northern-central areas (at least as far as historical linguistics is concerned). Now that I've addressed those two things, I’ll be back to give my remarks to the rest of your posts. |
Re: Origin Of Various Igbo Clans by Uniportadmision: 6:25am On Jul 26, 2021 |
ChinenyeN: I get your explanation on why no language is actually pure, but when I say purest form, I mean when a language has undergone full development and attained standardization, whether we like it or not this happens at a particular geographical location before being spread to near locations and wide. This is why I made reference to English and England, English was developed and standardized there before being shipped to other countries, therefore, we can take the British English to be purer since it has it's cradle there. We could argue on this and still come up to the same conclusion For example... The English word BEST was probably borrowed from the German word BESTEN, but BEST is what we know as pure English even though it's not pure or original in formation, but it is pure in it's standardized and adopted form. I am the best is correct, while I am the besten becomes bad English even though any learned person can understand both statements. So when I say purest Igbo, this is what I mean. Talking about Igboid population distributions, are you telling me the southern areas can in anyway be compared to the central plateau? Even the zones with one of the highest population density like Etche claim to have possibly migrated from Isu or Central Igbo land. |
Re: Origin Of Various Igbo Clans by AjaanaOka(m): 7:17am On Jul 26, 2021 |
Interesting conversation here, ChinenyeN and Uniportadmision. I came online to add a few speculations on the chronology of proto-Igboid movements to our old post and I saw I had been mentioned a couple of times here. Love the exchange. Uniportadmision, I think you really underestimated the diversity of the English language in Britain (Southern Scotland and England). A lot of people often think there's just one British English accent. There are a lot, and they don't always understand each other. A few British dialects/accents that I struggled with while living in England were the Brummie accent spoken in Birmingham, the Scouse accent spoken around Liverpool, the Geordie accent spoken around Newcastle. I had three English flatmates and two of them admitted to me that they had difficulty understanding what the third one said - she was from Birmingham. Then we had this one lecturer from an area in northern England known as the Black Country, who spoke with the 'notorious' Black Country twang that a lot of us struggled with. Students used to complain very bitterly to other lecturers that they were always lost in his class. There were still other dialects/accents I didn't get to witness firsthand, which native English-speakers in England told me were darn near incomprehensible to them: the Glaswegian accent spoken up in Glasgow, Scotland, for example. And the West Country accent down south. West Country accent is even more interesting because it still contains some old Germanic words and usages that have fallen into disuse in other dialects. (English is a Germanic language.) One cannot really make a case for the English spoken in Nigeria being more diverse than the English spoken in Britain. I have never heard of two Nigerians speaking versions of English so different they had problems understanding each other. I might need to be corrected in this next assertion I am going to make (since I have never lived in the U. S.), but I even doubt that the English spoken in America which is many, many times the size of Britain (both in terms of landmass and population) is more diverse than the dialects spoken in Britain. |
Re: Origin Of Various Igbo Clans by Uniportadmision: 10:23am On Jul 26, 2021 |
AjaanaOka: Interesting, I may have underestimated the diversity of the English language spoken in England like you said, can't say I'll argue with you since you have already been there and lived amongst them, while I've not even crossed over to Cotonu lol. Something I noticed though, you used dialect and accent interchangeably, aren't they supposed to explain two different things in a language? I'm open to learning. Now in my discussions with ChinenyeN, I often used the phrase 'standardized English' which could mean the final product gotten after the developmental phase, just like musicians make mixtapes during production before the final track is released, it is the same way I view what you just explained. The British exported the standardized or should we say the final English product, let me also call it 'central English' I coined this term so as to compare it with our own 'central Igbo. After the Igbo language has been standardized and exported down south, I believe the different routes taken to get to it's final southern or western destinations may have contributed to its immense diversity and structure. My point is, a language can be developed and standardized at a particular geographical location but can gain diverse dialects in some other locations due to foreign interference. If you take your time to study most dialects in Imo state, you'd find more diversity than you can ever have imagined. As a young lad growing up, I once visited my mother's maternal village, some Igbo words I heard there seemed very strange and alien to me, but they sounded very archaic and spoken most amongst the old people. In my boarding school days during Igbo weeks, when I spoke my kind of owerri dialect, the Igbo guys laughed at me and wondered what rubbish I was speaking, same way I found Onitcha dialect to be funny lol. Imo state dialects are very huge I tell you. Without learning this variants of Igboid dialects and hearing it for the first time, I can understand; Ogba 75% considered non Igbo Ikwerre 65% - non Igbo Ebonyi 15% lol. Yet considered 100% Igbo An Example of my dialect that sounds funny and unIgbo to some people is... English.... What did you say Some Igbo dialects 1....ke ife ikwuru 2....gini ka ikwuru 3....ole ihe ikara 4....ikara nini 5....kedu ife ina kuo 6....isi gini Mine.... ikara shi nini? Lol. I doubt many non Igbos or even some Igbo people would know it's an Igbo dialect especially when spoken quick during conversations. |
Re: Origin Of Various Igbo Clans by ChinenyeN(m): 5:27am On Jul 27, 2021 |
So there is something that I have noticed that Igbo people do when we have discussions like this. Igbo people fall into a what I might call a pseudo-linguist trap. Everyone believes that their neck of the woods has some deep variant that will render them unintelligible to virtually everyone else or a deep variant that for one reason or another proves the originality or antiquity of their lect. This rhetoric has been used many times as metric to support one claim or another without any real justification. I too have been guilty of this in the past, but I am here to say now that sounding un-Igbo or being unintelligible to most Igbo is not a substantial or even valid metric, particularly in this discussion. Case in point, Ekpeye vs Isu vs Izii lects. Both Ekpeye and Izii are practically unintelligible to Isu speakers. Both Ekpeye and Izii might sound un-Igbo compared to Isu. If this simple (and subjective) metric of “how it sounds” were all that there was to it, then we would simply say that the three are different languages. However, we know it is not as cut and dry as that. It is for this reason we have an entire field of linguistics with analytical tools such as glottochronology, lexico-statistics, etc. With tools such as this, we analyze and arrive at more reproducible claims (in the academia, reproducibility is the holy grail). With this said, it has been shown, to the satisfaction of the academia, that Ekpeye is likely the oldest surviving Igboid branch. On the basis of this alone, Isu is disqualified as the linguistic genesis of the Igbo-speaking region. Linguistically speaking, with Ekpeye being older, it is clear that on the basis of historical linguistics, if we want to determine the genesis of the Igboid language family, we need to better analyze the movement of Ekpeye and not Isu. Now, let us move away from linguistics and examine oral tradition. As far as oral tradition goes, we are aware that the Izii area is one of the more recently populated zones (unless I am mistaken; someone correct me if I am wrong). So this is established. Relatively speaking the Izii communities are young. Now, let us go back to linguistics. Despite the fact that Izii is unintelligible to Isu, lexical analysis has revealed that Izii’s cognate scores are much higher with Isu and Owerri than with Ekpeye. I will have to go back and find the exact number from one of Kay Williamson’s analyses, but I believe it either came close to or exceeded 80%. Now let us follow this line of thought. With such high cognate scores, we know that the linguistic branching between Izii and Isu is recent. Very recent, if I might say. Now if the branching is recent, and if Izii is young as a community, then it suggests that the lexical innovations that characterize the Isu lect may also be relatively recent. Not all as recent as Izii, but still relatively recent. Can we be certain of this? In fact, yes, we can be near certain of it. With Ekpeye having been established as being from the oldest surviving branch, and with Isu having such low lexical similarity with Ekpeye within the Igbo-speaking region (I will double-check this and correct it if necessary), we can almost certainly say that the Isu lect is from a more modern language branch. Do we follow? Essentially, the fact that Isu shares almost 80% lexical similarity with a linguistic branch that is known to be young (Izii) and far less lexical similarity with a linguistic branch that is accepted to be old (Ekpeye), we know that the Isu branch is itself should also be relatively young. When I say relatively, I mean in the span of time that we are looking at for the existence of Igboid lects. Essentially, 5000 - 3000 BCE to present day (within approximately 7,000 years as is currently accepted by the academia). On the virtue of this alone, at least when it comes to studying the Igbo language family, the Hinterland Homeland hypothesis that centers on Isu is not a viable candidate for assessing Igbo linguistic genesis in the area. As we can see, this is more than just an assumption on how language spread and dialects emerged. We are looking at the results of reproducible studies and analysis on surviving Igboid lects. Notice that without having to bring up the argument of high lectal diversity within the Ikwerre area, we have already disqualified Isu as a candidate, in favor of Ekpeye. By extension, we have show the entire Northern Igbo Plateau to just as likely be unviable as a candidate when discussing (at least) the linguistic genesis for branching within the Igbo-speaking region. The Igbo academia should begin revising its school of thought on Igbo language origins at least. |
Re: Origin Of Various Igbo Clans by ChinenyeN(m): 5:30am On Jul 27, 2021 |
AjaanaOka!! As my people say, anya arno (longest time)! AjaanaOka:Biara biekpere, add them at your earliest convenience. |
Re: Origin Of Various Igbo Clans by ChinenyeN(m): 6:23am On Jul 27, 2021 |
Uniportadmision:Yes, I am in fact saying exactly that. Obviously, I did not do the census recording and reporting. I am basing this response from the accounts of other researchers who likely have better access to population census records. We trust them to accurately report it in their research, until such a time as when we discover that they had not. So anyhow, let me continue. Let us take the time to analyze the specifics that are used by the academia to push the narrative of the Northern Igbo Plateau being so supposedly unique. They are two specific items. 1. Autochthony. 2. Population density. When it comes to the discussion of Igbo origins, the academia certainly treats the Northen Igbo Plateau as though it is the only area with autochthonous traditions, but that is far from the truth. Just as there is autochthony in the Northern Igbo Plateau, so also is there the Nfulala traditions of Ezinihitte and northern Ngwa. Likewise, we also have the in-situ traditions of the Akpor area in Ikwerre. I have not listed out everywhere, but already we have two communities in the southern Igbo-speaking region (outside of the Northern Igbo Plateau) with comparable autochthonous traditions. Just as with autochthony, when it comes to population density in the discussion of Igbo origins, the Northern Igbo Plateau receives the sole emphasis, despite the fact that other area (such as the southern region) does compare to the northern Igbo Plateau. In fact, as a case in point, the population density of northern Ngwa has been reported as comparable to Owerri and the Orlu province. Now, if we take the northern Ngwa and Ezinihitte area together, we see that this stretch of land is actually directly comparable to the Northern Igbo Plateau in both population density and traditions of autochthony; the two specific features that are used by the academia to center the Northern Igbo Plateau (and specifically Isu) within the discussion of Igbo origin. Now, obviously, we can assume that Ezinihitte and Ngwa are not the genesis of Igbo origin. To begin with, these communities separate themselves strongly from Isu and claim no ancestral kinship nor ethnic allegiance with them (not including the modern Igbo identity that we all now have). However, the same rules used to uniquely set aside the Northern Igbo Plateau are completely ignored in the case of Ezinihitte and northern Ngwa. In fact, they are so very much ignored that the academia has successfully pushed the narrative of an Isuama origin for both Ezinihitte and northern Ngwa (communities that do not acknowledge kinship with Isu). As it turns out, the Isuama narrative has had an effect on the traditions of the Ngwa community, but Ezinihitte has remained largely resistant to the academia’s insistence on them being Isuama. I cannot speak to the population density for Akpor, but even without population density, the existence of an autochthonous tradition which is corroborated in the traditions of the Ipu and Oza communities of Asa, should further cause one to question the extent to which the Isu can truly be credited with birthing Igbo communities. In fact a cursory analysis of southern Igbo oral traditions seems to show that the Isu are not progenitors of any of the known ethnic groups in the area. Rather, oral traditions shows the area to have been settled by these communities by the time the Isu pushed into the south. Even Echie, contrary to your assessment is not Isu, though there are Isu settlements within their ethnic groups. Unless there is some additional/insightful information I am not aware of and as such are completely mistaken. Anyhow, with all that having been said, you should be able to see that the Hinterland Homeland hypothesis requires further scrutiny. The entire southern belt was already peopled by non-Isu groups, so we can already discount the southern half of Igboland as having their origin from Isu. I am almost willing to bet we can also discount much of northern, eastern and western areas as also being Isu. Please don’t mistake my words. Isu are indeed a large ethnic block. Isu also indeed has a known and impactful expansion period. However, if we put the Hinterland Homeland hypothesis aside and examine the actual oral traditions of the communities in question, we don’t see much evidence that supports Isu as the homeland for many of these ethnic groups. |
Re: Origin Of Various Igbo Clans by Uniportadmision: 12:57pm On Jul 27, 2021 |
ChinenyeN: Like you rightly said, you did not carry out the census down south and believe me the population explosion you see there now wasn't so in the 1960s. My grandfather used to tell me about how scanty Rivers state was when they arrived during the 1950s, you could easily throw a stone and obtain lands as far as the stone throw can go. Even as a kid I witnessed how scanty the place was, during the Christmas seasons it was even worse, because the bulk of the population are recent eastern migrants. Also bear in mind that by the 1950s my paternal grandfather already had buildings in the ancient town of Diobu. Most Eastern migrants that came with him had naturalized to be Rivers indigenes and therefore classified as ikwerre as of today. Why am I talking about these recent migrations? Well, you see, if you take a population census now, I doubt the tribes claiming Ikwerre would be more than two million plus, also have it in mind that this population explosion gained momentum around the 1950s till now. Now if you calculate the growth by birth rates of the indigenous Ikwerre group plus the early migrants or should I say the movement from the 1950s until now and all you get is around 3 or 2 million people, then it's safe to assume that the earliest Ikwerre settlers would rather be in few hundreds of thousands compared to their cousins up north who would have been at least in millions already. So I definitely don't think it went from south to north looking at the population logic. Perhaps there might have been a case of out of Africa then back again to Africa scenerio? Like from south to north then back to south movement? In today's census are the Ekpeye up to a million? How many would they have been like a thousand years ago? If a large chunk of them were influenced and assimilated by the advancing easterners, why did a particular set withstand the pressure while others where swallowed? My point is, I think they're an independent Igboid tribe but definitely not that ancient as thought to be considered one of the leftovers of an upward northern movement, because the population doesn't support that theory. If we still insist on the theory that some part of Ekpeye might have been assimilated by the northern groups as opined by Ajaanaoka... (Don't know if I got the name right) , what about the other Rivers tribes like the Ogonis, Abuas etc smaller groups, with that logic their language and culture should have been annihilated (colonised) too, but I doubt if there are Igboid lexicals in their diction, maybe except for the Kalabari group that copied few words and structures because of inter marriage, at least they still maintained a huge part of their Ijoid structure. Most of these tribes are not that ancient as initially thought, imagine if the British never came and the Igboid group continued to influence the Kalabari language, I think by now we would have been thinking that because their language is quite complex, therefore they might be an ancient group with possible roles in early dispersals northward? |
Re: Origin Of Various Igbo Clans by Uniportadmision: 3:26pm On Jul 27, 2021 |
ChinenyeN: Dear ChinenyeN we have to be careful the way we believe some oral history, I mean, many of the stories are unrealistic and they can only remember as far back as they were told. Talking about autochthonous communities, you should know by now that the average Igbo man take pride in claiming independence and originality in what ever he does, he likes to be a pioneer(parent) rather than a copier(child). I think many groups claiming autochthony do that out of pride and not necessarily oral traditions. Everyone definitely came from somewhere else before the present permanent location was established. No group fell from heaven like the Oduduwa story lol. I don't even believe the Igbo genesis happened around the Benue-Kogi confluence, why aren't their similar remnant traditions over there? How come they all drove in unison down south without some groups opting to remain home? I have read the theory you and Ajaanaoka proposed about the Akoko-Edo zone but it's still far from being acceptable, though it makes sense, the only issue is, I feel there should have been reasonable remnants, even if not in language (at least 50% close to eastern Igbo) but at least in distant culture and arts. I'm just speculating anyway, we all are speculating to come to a sensible conclusion, but I think the genesis happened down east. |
Re: Origin Of Various Igbo Clans by ChinenyeN(m): 6:49pm On Jul 27, 2021 |
Uniportadmision:There are a few other comments in your post that are very similar to these two, in terms of the theme they are targeting. So I only chose to highlight these two as being representative of the others, since I don't believe there is a need to nitpick the entirety of your post. Now, we're getting into another area where Igbo people notoriously fall into a trap. Before I discuss these trappings, I want to highlight two things are being conflated here, and it is important that we separate them: 1) The language family discussion. 2) The question of settlement and migratory history within the region. Yes, these two topics are related in the grander scheme of things. However, we find in many cases that we can draw distinguishing lines between them. In other words, the question of a language family is not wholly tied to the settlement and migratory history of a region. Likewise, the settlement and migratory history alone does not often answer the question of language family history. There is significant nuance between these two topics that never allows for a one-size-fits all model, hence why the greater picture is painted from the collective results of various fields of study. Historical linguistics, combined with cultural anthropology allow us to better understand the transformations that occurred within a given community and really only within that given community. New analysis and discussion will be required as we scale the scope of the region, whether up or down. Yes, I have prefaced a lot in this paragraph, but it is important to drive this point forward. How language innovates and spreads is not necessarily correlated with how populations migrate and settle. Please, take the time to absorb this single sentence. Now, let's discuss this trap that Igbo people fall into, using the representative quote samples I have above. One assumption that Igbo people have held onto is that the "ancestral group" will be greater in population than the descendant groups, and that places with less population definitively means they are newer settlements. Simply put, that is just not how it works. The ancestral homeland for Isu is within the Northern Igbo Plateau, supposedly, but the entirety of settlements that constitute "Isu people" far outnumber the homeland. The homeland for Ngwa, some Ngor Okpuala is in Ezinihitte and northern Ngwa. However the bulk of Ngwa's high population can be attributed to the communities outside of northern Ngwa, and so on and so forth. Obviously, population is not a determinant for antiquity, and thinking otherwise is the trap that Igbo people often fall into. It is time for Igbo people to separate the two, because they are not dependencies for each other. You can have a population with antiquity (such as the Adamanese people who are estimated to have settled in their area around 26,000 years ago) and still be low in number (estimated 7,000 in the 18th century). In other words, we cannot draw a linear line between age of a settlement and its population, because various social, cultural, political, economic and even ecological contexts are required to understand how that settlement transformed overtime. So when we interrogate the theories such as the Hinterland Hypothesis or the Northern Igbo Plateau theory, we need to do more than simply saying "they are more in number" or that "they have a high population density". Cultural anthropology will ask questions such as "What factors influenced or caused such tight nucleated settlements within that region? Are those same or similar factors obtainable in other areas? What are the limits on whether or not we can apply such factors to other regions in the area?". Long story short, it is simply not a good enough justification to base practically the entirety of the two theories (Hinterland Hypothesis and the Northern Igbo Plateau theory) on just high population density without further inquiry on the anthropological context that influenced it relative to other regions in the area. Uniportadmision:Before I go further, I'd like to ask if you can point me to the section of the discussion that prompted your statement in bold. I want to respond to it by stating that (if memory serves), this is not the point that AjaanaOka was making at the time. But I would like to be sure what I am responding to and be sure that my memory serves me well before I fully respond. Now, regarding the rest of the quote. Lexical analysis of Igbo (and also YEAI), suggests that the earliest speakers and even later after branching were not from (and did not perpetuate) a fishery-centric culture. Immediately south of the Igbo-speaking region is a delta. Aside from what might be considered occasional subsistence fishing practices, lexical analysis and cultural anthropology would suggest that proto-Igboid speakers would likely not have ventured into the delta. You see how population alone is not enough to answer historical linguistics and cultural anthropology questions? Nothing indicates that the hinterland and the Northern Igbo Plateau, despite their population density and population pressure, would ever have overrun the communities in the delta (whether by population or language or culture) anytime in the past, nor even anytime in the near future had Europeans not arrived. This isn't to say that it is not at all possible. It very well might be, but the linear domino effect that you are suggesting is unlikely as it fails to take into consideration (at the risk of sounding like a broken record) the various social, political, cultural, economic and even ecological factors that influence settlement patterns over time. In this particular case, we can probably make the assertion that so long as the delta continues to exist and they continue to inhabit it, their languages (which have an abundance of fishery-centric terminology in their proto reconstructions), will likely not be impacted enough that their language family trees disappear under the population weight of Igbo-speaking communities. Uniportadmision:You will have to forgive me if this sounds sarcastic, but does this quote here also apply when speaking about the hinterland or the Northern Igbo Plateau? I am only quoting a section of this post, but taking the entirety of the post into consideration of this context of our discussion so far, it seems as though we are now pushing a strange rhetoric. You seem to have had no qualms supporting the basic foundations of the Hinterland Homeland hypothesis or the Northern Igbo Plateau theory, but now that we are facing similar for regions in the southern Igbo-speaking area, we should be careful how we believe some oral traditions. So, it's okay for Isu & Co. to be taken seriously, but it isn't okay for other groups who actually think of Isu as strangers? |
Re: Origin Of Various Igbo Clans by Uniportadmision: 7:17pm On Jul 27, 2021 |
ChinenyeN: Interesting. |
Re: Origin Of Various Igbo Clans by Uniportadmision: 7:41pm On Jul 27, 2021 |
ChinenyeN ChinenyeN: I made that statement based on the population argument about Ekpeye being too small to be considered one of the areas of language dispersal, if so, Ajaanaoka suggested in his thread that a huge chunk of the Ekpeye population might have been assimilated by the northern groups, therefore the thought of a smaller population density should not bother. My argument was that, if that be the case, then why did the remaining parts of Ekpeye resist? Why wasn't all assimilated? Why wasn't other smaller groups influenced? I then suggested that they might have been an independent tribe from the cross riveran area whose original dialect was corrupted by the neighboring Igboid groups in a similar nature like the Abiriba group. Which then classifies them as a recent group rather than an ancient group that took a different route coming down south from the Akoko-Edo or Benue-Kogi zone different to the route their northern Igboid cousins took as you and Ajaanaoka had opined. Since you have debunked this, I would have to read more and carry out more research on the subject matter. |
Re: Origin Of Various Igbo Clans by Uniportadmision: 7:53pm On Jul 27, 2021 |
Dear ChinenyeN ChinenyeN: I wasn't really referring to the southern tribes, in fact I was thinking about the tier ones and twos you grouped when I made that statement... Eg Abagworo saying Ahiara is Isu and you having reservations about the claim because they have an oral history of being an autochthonous community. I wasn't being specific of a region, I was being generic. |
Re: Origin Of Various Igbo Clans by Uniportadmision: 8:45pm On Jul 27, 2021 |
ChinenyeN, still on the Ekpeye theory, more studies needs to be carried out to support your hypothesis which is mainly based on academia linguistic studies. Empirical studies need to be conducted on the geographical location where they now occupy. Archeological studies should be done in the area to estimate how long settlements have existed, this will further strengthen your claim if it turns out to be that ancient. Also the presence and types of arts, tools could throw more light on how ancient the land has been occupied. For example the discoveries at Igbo ukwu and Ebonyi give credence to early human habitations as far back as 5000 years ago or more. Until some of this points are established, using linguist theories alone who by the way aren't infallible to draw a conclusion is faulty. |
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