I know many of us (myself included) have antagonized Joagbaje on many many occasions for his beliefs on christianity. TV01 (some of you know this juggernaut very well) was really responsible for altering my thinking on WOF, prosperity christians - from antagonistic to sympathetic, knowing we all have at one point believed amiss on one thing or another. And that no one had ever been ridiculed or badgered into conversion/de-conversion - and not that I'm claiming some higher ground/knowledge here - pls note that.

Long story short. I'll ask Jo a series of questions - not fight with him - but to understand why he believes some of the things he believes. And also for another strategic reason - one I hope is evident without my having to explain it.

So Joagbaje please come in . . .

(edit: I asked Joagbaje for his permission first before opening this thread. FYI)

Q1. Joagbaje, can you briefly tell us how you became a christian? The circumstances? Was it in a church? The way you felt? Was it sudden or over a period of time? what changed in your heart? ps. you don't have to give any personal details you don't want to, just a general idea of how it happened. Thanks.

unnecessary

I  had a religious background in a white garment church. But I got born again at the age of 9 through 2 of my elder sisters who had decamped into S.U. and foursquare . They shared with me about end time from time to time, they talked of the rapture, the anti christ and hell fire. That was the salvation message those days. I gave my heart to christ one day while it was about to rain, it thundered heavily,the cloud changed I felt the rapture was about to take place. . I was at home alone.

JeSoul:

Q1. Joagbaje, can you briefly tell us how you became a christian? The circumstances? Was it in a church? The way you felt? Was it sudden or over a period of time? what changed in your heart? ps. you don't have to give any personal details you don't want to, just a general idea of how it happened. Thanks.

l want to commend the wisdom behind this idea if it is sincere though, at least lets give the forum to joagbaje to explain his convictions rather than always finding cause to get abusively personal. Once again thank you and mentain the sincerity because l know joagbaje is poisted to coming out straight and real

Newmi, thanks. And thanks to Joagbaje for agreeing to it.

Joagbaje:

I  had a religious background in a white garment church. But I got born again at the age of 9 through 2 of my elder sisters who had decamped into S.U. and foursquare . They shared with me about end time from time to time, they talked of the rapture, the anti christ and hell fire. That was the salvation message those days. I gave my heart to christ one day while it was about to rain, it thundered heavily,the cloud changed I felt the rapture was about to take place. . I was at home alone.

Thanks for the response Jo. When you were 9? cool. So would you say the fear of hell/damnation was the primary reason you decided to be a christian then?
Also, I am curious about the bolded part above. What differences do you see between the message/gospel your sisters shared then versus the message/gospel shared today?

Joagbaje:

I  had a religious background in a white garment church. But I got born again at the age of 9 through 2 of my elder sisters who had decamped into S.U. and foursquare . They shared with me about end time from time to time, they talked of the rapture, the anti christ and hell fire. That was the salvation message those days. I gave my heart to christ one day while it was about to rain, it thundered heavily,the cloud changed I felt the rapture was about to take place. . I was at home alone.

Firstly, l want to commend your initial response to this invitation which l consider remarkably sincere and down-to-earth.
am really looking forward to your subsequent responses because l think this is a more mature avenue to explain yourself, l just trust JeSoul is sincere and patient to hear you out.

I honestly believe Jo is the most misunderstood person on Nairaland.

Although i am not christian, I have a Christian background, and I am fairly certain that most of the ideas that Jo expresses are scripturally rooted. Maybe he does not express them in a way that suits the desires of the generality of mainstream christrians, but undeniably, there is nothing that he posts that he does not back up with clear and well sourced scripture.

Perhaps on the odd occassion his interpretations may be slightly extreme. But we ALL fall prey to this now and then.

In my view, I can say without any embarrasment whatsoever that I have often been impressed by his take on things: very original and many times remarkably insightful. Jo is different: and I will never sue a man for being different.

As far as I know, the essentials of the WoF doctrines for which Jo is so heavily castigated are as follows - and I have previously provided my views as to the extent to which those teachings are scriptural -

TEACHING 1 - Quote

At the heart of the Word of Faith movement is the belief in the "force of faith." It is believed words can be used to manipulate the faith-force, and thus actually create what they believe Scripture promises (health and wealth). Laws supposedly governing the faith-force are said to operate independently of God's sovereign will and that God Himself is subject to these laws. This is nothing short of idolatry, turning our faith—and by extension ourselves—into god.

I do not see that this is at variance with Christian teaching.

1. The power of faith is a key teaching of the New Testament. As i stated in the OP, Jesus himself famously taught that if men would have sufficient faith, they could walk on water or lift mountains into the sea. Whichever way you read these statements, either literally or symbolically - the connotation is clear: that by faith all things may be accomplished. Indeed in terms of walking on water this was actually literal as the scripture records that Jesus walked on water and urged Peter to do the same (and he actually did), but faltered, lacking sure conviction. If this is not a wholesale endorsement of the WoF teaching that faith accomplishes all things, I do not know what else is.

2. The extract talks about laws operating in the universe. Do you deny this? Does scripture deny this?

3. The extract talks about the laws being independent of God's will and that God himself is subject to those laws. Really this is just another way of stating that that which God has established is unchangeable in terms of the laws that govern creation: as such God is not to be seen changing his laws - and Bible teaching bears this out when it states that God is unchangeable. Understood right, therefore, this extract simply means that God will not change the laws of creation beacause those laws are perfect and eternal, as they proceed from God. For this reason there is nothing to change, and this is why it is said that God himself is "subject" to those laws. I believe this is mirrorred in the biblical teaching that heaven and earth may pass away but the word of the Lord abideth forever. That word, simply is the law of God, and this is what is said to abide forever.

4. It is thus not a question of turning faith into God: it is simply a question of realizing that there are latent laws within the universe and that the bible does teach that through faith one may key-into those laws and reach a desired reality. Jesus clearly taught this - and you will find that it is a standard piece of truth which is mirrorred in may oriental traditions as well. I thus cannot see that the teaching regarding faith is in anyway heretical or unbiblical.

TEACHING 2: Quote

From here, its theology just strays further and further from Scripture: It claims that God created human beings in His literal, physical image as little gods. Before the fall, humans had the potential to call things into existence by using the faith-force. After the fall humans took on Satan's nature and lost the ability to call things into existence. In order to correct this situation, Jesus Christ gave up His divinity and became a man, died spiritually, took Satan's nature upon Himself, went to hell, was born-again, and rose from the dead with God's nature. After this, Jesus sent the Holy Spirit to replicate the Incarnation in believers so they could become little gods as God had originally intended.

1. I do not know that the WoF claim God to be physical - but without contest the bible does teach in Genesis that God made man in his own image.

2. If God did make man in his own image as the bible teaches, then clearly man must have had attributes of the "Godly" nature, which includes the power  of creativity. Thus up till today, man actively creates things.

3. The bible teaches that there was a fall of man.

4. The bible teaches that that fall of man placed man within the will of the satan as conceived in the garden of Eden. The Bible teaches that this alienated man from God.

5. The bible teaches that Jesus' coming was necessary to reconcile man with God.

6. The Bible teaches that by his death, Jesus took on the sin of the world. This is exactly analogous to that which is stated in the extract above namely "taking on the nature of satan" - this simply refers to his act of taking on the sin of the world at Golgotha.

7. The bible teaches that by this very act, Man became reconciled to God - and Jesus urged christians to thereby excercise faith to influence reality.

8. Jesus himself referred to men as "gods" - and the NT teaches that by his sacrifice men would become brothers of christ in the kingdom of God. Does this not sync perfectly with the WoF teaching regarding the powers and status of the saved christian man of faith?

All  of these, which are contained in the extract, are taught by the Bible. As I said earlier, Jesus himself propounded the thought  that by faith men could control reality. I thus cannot see why there is such a mighty furore over the teachings of the WoF movement as expressed herein. Frankly it seems to me that those teachings are derived from the Bible. What I do understand is that different christian sects have different interpretations of scripture. This is only natural and should not lead you to brand them heretical - they simply have a different view of scripture which they are entitled to have, especially when all the things enumerated above are undoubtedly conveyed by scripture.

TEACHING 3: Quote

Following the natural progression of these teachings, as little gods we again have the ability to manipulate the faith-force and become prosperous in all areas of life. Illness, sin, and failure are the result of a lack of faith, and are remedied by confession—claiming God's promises for oneself into existence.

What is so unscripural about the foregoing? Did Jesus not teach same?

As a post script let me just say this: Scripture and christainity aside, thought, belief and faith undoubtedly influence reality. This has been the vocation of mystics for generations. I cannot see what is evil about harnessing the power of thought to transform belief and positively influence one's reality.

Further to the above, and still on the power of faith -

This was the opening post of mine in the same thread in which I wrote the above. The thread is titled "Belief and Reality"

https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-467772.0.html

I believe that these ideas are resident within Jesus' teachings and have also been the vocation of mystics for generations before and after Jesus.

Much has been said and written over the centuries concerning the power of faith. By “faith”, I must state at the outset that I mean this in both the holistic sense and the specific sense in terms of the religious and spiritual application of the word "faith."

I was reflecting a few days ago and I thought to dwell a little on the connections, if any, between belief and reality.

Jesus of Nazareth, that famous and unequalled teacher of truth once conveyed the teaching that if a man’s belief be sufficient, there is little that he could not do. He famously asked his disciples to walk on water through faith: and urged them to be capable of casting mountains into the sea through faith.

Is there a level of faith – an absolute conviction – which when held – transposes directly into reality? I suspect that there is. The Nazarene was onto something for sure.

Why are some people able to bend metal spoons by staring intently at them? Certainly there are many charlatans about: but the powers of some psychics are simply undeniable.

Now it seems to me that thoughts carry certain powers. The more intense a thought, the greater its magnetic strength and the more compelling its powers. I feel that in this way, a thought which is held in absolute and utterly unwavering conviction, will transpose into reality.

Now I am not out to convey belief in some sort of imaginary arrogation of powers, which seems to be the tendency of a certain group of people, but it seems clear to me that –

1. Thoughts do carry magnetic and other powers

2. The strength/ intensity of a thought may be related to its possible manifestation as reality

Now at this stage it strikes one that absolute and perfect conviction – the truest certainty that comes from full and total knowledge and perhaps omnipotence – is not possible for any human being. In other words, humans are not able to achieve a perfect thought: a state of absolute and unhindered certainty and belief. Accordingly it follows that humans would have a very limited capacity to transpose their thoughts and beliefs directly into reality merely by thinking/ believing such. Nevertheless there is reason to believe that with deep conviction and ethereal meditation, a human being may create realities out of his thoughts.

Something may therefore be said for the value of faith – even in a religious or spiritual context. A sound and firm degree of faith would doubtless naturally attract that which it seeks to itself.

Now I mentioned earlier that perfect certainty is probably impossible to humans. This would only be possible to a being that is an absolute: such as God.

In this it immediately becomes clear that there is a “mental” relationship between the absoluteness of God and God’s creation.

For the simple fact that God is an absolute being, all that God thinks will irrevocably become reality. This defines the nature of creation– whereat the creator brings things into existence: because whatever the creator has a thought of, IS.

This is a process that we can probably replicate on a much reduced and less perfect degree.

Let there be Light.

^^^
@Deep Sight: please give it a break. This thread is an interview with Joagbaje, not what you think about Joagbaje's beliefs. We are all interested in hearing him and you are somewhat derailing the thread. Thanks.

^^^ Sorrry. Could not resist. I often feel compelled to "explain" abit what I understand him to be saying, because he seems so misunderstood.

I take the point, though.

_{[What are you doing awake at this time?]}

[size=3pt]Its just 10:45 p.m. where I am[/size]

[size=4pt]That is still surely way past your bed time[/size]

@Deepsight
How much in legal fees is Pastor Joe paying you for his defence?

what does Joagbaje mean by 'that was the the salvation message of those day'?. I pity you. So the message of tithe, offering and prosperity which you people are cashing in on the poverty in Nigeria to preach this days so as to win people in your church is the correct message of salvation? Keep deceiving yourself and the weak minded christians here.

JeSoul:

Thanks for the response Jo. When you were 9? cool. So would you say the fear of hell/damnation was the primary reason you decided to be a christian then?

Yes , primarily, I got born again , partially through the fear of hell, but the main thing that terrified me in their message was the reign of the beast. I used to think the beast was a tall animal. They shared that in yoruba and called it "Eranko" ( animal/ beast) I remember asking , Cant someone climb the leg of the beast and hide under him? So I was more terrified about being left behind and being chased . Nowhere to hide , being caught and being torn apart by animals. I was told that my two legs will be tied to two different horses and as they run in different directions I would be torn apart. I was told that on the day of the rapture , thunder will strike from one end of heaven to the other, then there will be a loud alarm in heaven. So every time the formation of the cloud change , I would start praying for forgiveness. I had my childhood "sins".

But the particular day I really gave my heart, the cloud was so dark, the wind was boisterous, then there were thunderings all over. And  I heard a loud long alarm, not knowing that It was a police siren,   I was convinced that the beast was coming that day , so I prayed. " PLEASE, JESUS, SAVE ME, I GIVE MY LIFE TO YOU. It was when I came out to see how many were left behind that I knew the rapture hadn't taken place and that it was a police siren car that was being repaired. Behind the barrack where we stayed in Ibadan (iyaganku barracks)  my dad was police.

[b][color=#990000]So would you say the fear of hell/damnation was the primary reason you decided to be a christian then?[/b]Also, I am curious about the bolded part above. What differences do you see between the message/gospel your sisters shared then versus the message/gospel shared today?[/color]

The difference is between condemnation,fear and love. Salvation through fear is not a good foundation. And message of the love of God.  My understanding is that God loves us and wants us to walk in love relationship with him. People already have sense of condemnation. And unworthiness . In themselves.  Message of guilt and condemnation will not produce the relationship God wants. There will be outward religion but inward unrenewed.

I delayed before because , I had though I could never get saved or be good enough for God. I had thought I could dive and capture any good person at the rapture and hold on to his legs. I was sure Jesus won't take me. In the days where you were made to believe that chewing gum is for ashawo or ashewo. And i was adicted to my Bazooka chewing gum also I used to roll paper and smoke with my friends behind one Capenter shop until we burnt his cupboard down by mistake through the firewood we hid to rekindle our paper cigaret (one of my sins)  we couldn't own up who did it. So I couldn't face the fact of confession and admittance to that thing , my prayer was for God to forgive Satan. I kept asking. "can't God forgive Satan?"

Many people today don't see God as love but  as someone who is out to fish their sins out.

@ Deep Sight

Deep Sight:

^^^ Sorrry. Could not resist. I often feel compelled to "explain" abit what I understand him to be saying, because he seems so misunderstood.
I take the point, though.
_{[What are you doing awake at this time?]}

Thank you Deep Sight . But I don't think it's an issue of misunderstanding. Rather we have certain individuals that seems to be out for joeagbaje. Just because they are angry with pastor chris for whatever reason, so anyone who seem to be on pastor chris side should be rubbished. Take Kunle for example who advocate people should not give in churches but should only give to the poor. That's his idea of Christianity . When I did a thread on giving to the poor, guess what. He came in with his comrades to rubbish and detrail it. It is not about Topic now, ITs about personality. It doesnt matter my topic. Either it's "Jesus loves you" or "hell is real" they will look for something to attack. I have received several mails of commendation from people on NL. if I'm misunderstood at all , it should be few people.  Especially those who have been influenced by Kunles camp.

Without intending to derail this thread, it is necessary to make a couple of things clear.

1. Challenging WoF false doctrine is not a personal matter about Joagbaje or even Oyakhilome. Personally, I have been arguing against WoF doctrine outside this forum for many many years before hearing of Joagbaje or Oyakhilome ---- and on this forum since 2005 despite my relatively low number of posts. Today, there are still people in various parts of the world arguing against WoF doctrine without having heard of either Oyaks or Jo. As was (still is now to a lesser extent) the case with me, their main targets are the tutors of the Oyakhilomes of this world i.e. Kenneth Copeland etc. Just google the following words for example: 'word faith doctrine'.

2. Those who defend word of faith doctrine really do not have a good understanding of either the Christian faith or the Bible. In fact, quite often they don't really understand word of faith doctrine itself and its ramifications.

Enigma:

2. Those who defend word of faith doctrine really do not have a good understanding of either the Christian faith or the Bible. In fact, quite often they don't really understand word of faith doctrine itself and its ramifications. 

I have said often ,that the person that doesn't understand Word of Faith is you guys. You label every thing you don't understand as WOF. There is no doctrine called Wof Doctrine. And if there's is I don't subscribe to it. I simply believe the bible for what it says. Pastor chris doesn't not believev in  movement ir doctrine either . He teaches the message God has given him.

But I believe in the word of faith . Which simply refers to speaking faith filled words into situation to bring the will of God to pass. That is not a special doctrine or movement. It is the word of God. The word of God is the WORD OF FAITH.


 Romans 10:8
8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee,[ even] in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;

 1 Timothy 4:6
6 If thou put the brethren in remembrance of these things, thou shalt be a good minister of Jesus Christ, nourished up in the words of faith and of good doctrine, whereunto thou hast attained.

This is simply what the word of faith is about. But I agree that there was a time where the awareness was awaken in the body of christ of how you can change situation by speaking faith filled words. It is the religious mockers  who labelled it a movement. The word of God has always been there. And the principles of faith filled spoken word has been in God tom beginning.

So wof woofers labelling is nonsense based on ignorance. We can't argue with scriptures. God says we should be nourished in the words of faith.

@joagbaje
I have NEVER for once said that christians should not give to the church. What I have always maintained is that the primary objective of christian giving is to the poor and the needy and that even church collections were used to primarily take care of the poor and needy in the early church. In other wards for a christian giving to the needs of others should take priority over giving to the church institution. That is not to say you shouldn't give to the church, it is just about priotizing which is more important as taught by christ.

Pleaseeeeeeeee! Jo ought be allowed to show what he truly is. And he's gotten to it rather quickly and without fear too.

Lets allow him show himself

Subscribed!

I'm glad many people are interested in hearing Joagbaje out. Thanks Enigma, DS and Kunle for the comments - and thanks Aletheia & Nuc for keeping the peace .

---

Lets continue the interview :

Joagbaje:

Yes , primarily, I got born again , partially through the fear of hell, but the main thing that terrified me in their message was the reign of the beast. I used to think the beast was a tall animal. They shared that in yoruba and called it "Eranko" ( animal/ beast) I remember asking , Cant someone climb the leg of the beast and hide under him? So I was more terrified about being left behind and being chased . Nowhere to hide , being caught and being torn apart by animals. I was told that my two legs will be tied to two different horses and as they run in different directions I would be torn apart. I was told that on the day of the rapture , thunder will strike from one end of heaven to the other, then there will be a loud alarm in heaven. So every time the formation of the cloud change , I would start praying for forgiveness. I had my childhood "sins".

But the particular day I really gave my heart, the cloud was so dark, the wind was boisterous, then there were thunderings all over. And  I heard a loud long alarm, not knowing that It was a police siren,   I was convinced that the beast was coming that day , so I prayed. " PLEASE, JESUS, SAVE ME, I GIVE MY LIFE TO YOU. It was when I came out to see how many were left behind that I knew the rapture hadn't taken place and that it was a police siren car that was being repaired. Behind the barrack where we stayed in Ibadan (iyaganku barracks)  my dad was police.

I don't know about others, but I find this story endearing and I chuckled several times. The innocence of a child-like mind . . . this will be a major player as we go forward.

Joagbaje:

The difference is between condemnation,fear and love. Salvation through fear is not a good foundation. And message of the love of God.  My understanding is that God loves us and wants us to walk in love relationship with him. People already have sense of condemnation. And unworthiness . In themselves.  Message of guilt and condemnation will not produce the relationship God wants. There will be outward religion but inward unrenewed.
I delayed before because , I had though I could never get saved or be good enough for God. I had thought I could dive and capture any good person at the rapture and hold on to his legs. I was sure Jesus won't take me. In the days where you were made to believe that chewing gum is for ashawo or ashewo. And i was adicted to my Bazooka chewing gum also I used to roll paper and smoke with my friends behind one Capenter shop until we burnt his cupboard down by mistake through the firewood we hid to rekindle our paper cigaret (one of my sins)  we couldn't own up who did it. So I couldn't face the fact of confession and admittance to that thing , my prayer was for God to forgive Satan. I kept asking. "can't God forgive Satan?"

Many people today don't see God as love but  as someone who is out to fish their sins out.   

  I'd like to take it a step further and ask what I believe others might be thinking:
Q1: If you'd rather subscribe solely to the gospel of love to appeal to people to get saved - how do you reconcile this with Christ's and the apostles method of preaching? [/b]since Jesus and the early leaders spent a lot of time preaching on hell and sin.

[b]Q2: Furthermore, what do you say the primary message of the gospel is? Joel Osteen is a famous preacher who has mentioned he does not preach about sin because "people already know what they do wrong" and he "doesn't want to bring people down". What do you think about this? and what do you think about Joel Osteen in general? his style, his message, methods etc . . .

JeSoul:

  I'd like to take it a step further and ask what I believe others might be thinking:
[b]Q1: If you'd rather subscribe solely to the gospel of love to appeal to people to get saved - how do you reconcile this with Christ's and the apostles method of preaching? [/b]since Jesus and the early leaders spent a lot of time preaching on hell and sin.

It would have been better if you deal with a particular scripture to explain the point. I have preached both I know the difference
Your sins shall find you out
The soul that sinneth shall perish
You cannot escape the fire of hell and BRRRRIMESTONE! ( the "r" of the brimestone used to be so sweet to call). I have preached the two sides and i know that scaring people to salvation does not build a lasting relationship. It is build on religious fear of terror. If such people hear that there is no more hell. They will be dancing on rhe street. I have been in some churches and i know the message that works.

I didnt say we shouldn't talk about hell and sin. They are all part of the word of God. The problem is the way of communication. There us a way I can correct someone and he happily learns and there's another way I intend to correct but only succeed in making the person condemn.

God is love and he wants people to know that. He is not trying to damn people to hell. They are damned already. He wants them to know his love has made provision for them . That's what the gospel message if for , that God has made a way out of the impending doom. And also he has called us into a life of dominion . Over sin, sickeness ,poverty and death.

All these are in incapsulated in the life in christ. So our emphasis is the good news of the life in christ. Not how hot the temperature of hell is. The gospel means "good news " so it explains itself. The good news of what christ did for us.

Q2: Furthermore, what do you say the primary message of the gospel is? Joel Osteen is a famous preacher who has mentioned he does not preach about sin because "people already know what they do wrong" and he "doesn't want to bring people down". What do you think about this? and what do you think about Joel Osteen in general? his style, his message, methods etc . . .

It is against my convictions in the word God to criticise a man that God is using. Even if I dont understand him or believe in his structure. If Gods grace is evident in a man. I should be careful so that I don't sin. God knows why he chose him.

For once I agree with joagbaje, the gospel is that of love and should be preached as such. Intimidating people thru the fear of hell would win genuine converts, it would at best convert the person on the outward whilst the inside would remain rotten. That not withstanding, the true gospel is hardly being preached or practised not even in joagbaje's religious institution which is mis-named as believer's love world.

@kunleoshob
But you hardly know what CEC. Message is. You judge by hearsay . You should have made effort to find out. And then judge it by he word of God.

@joagbaje
I have a fairly good idea of CEC messages, I have listened to several CE programmes on TV, I have also heard personal accounts from members and best of all I have teachings from you a confirmed CEC pastor and adherent so I can safely make my conclusions. Jesus already taught us we would be able to discern false teachers by their fruits, the fruits of CEC that I see certainly qualifies the promoter as a top rate FALSE teacher.

Joagbaje:

It would have been better if you deal with a particular scripture to explain the point. I have preached both I know the difference
Your sins shall find you out
The soul that sinneth shall perish
You cannot escape the fire of hell and BRRRRIMESTONE! ( the "r" of the brimestone used to be so sweet to call). I have preached the two sides and i know that scaring people to salvation does not build a lasting relationship. It is build on religious fear of terror. If such people hear that there is no more hell. They will be dancing on rhe street. I have been in some churches and i know the message that works.

I didnt say we shouldn't talk about hell and sin. They are all part of the word of God. The problem is the way of communication. There us a way I can correct someone and he happily learns and there's another way I intend to correct but only succeed in making the person condemn.

God is love and he wants people to know that. He is not trying to damn people to hell. They are damned already. He wants them to know his love has made provision for them . That's what the gospel message if for , that God has made a way out of the impending doom. And also he has called us into a life of dominion . Over sin, sickeness ,poverty and death.

All these are in incapsulated in the life in christ. So our emphasis is the good news of the life in christ. Not how hot the temperature of hell is. The gospel means "good news " so it explains itself. The good news of what christ did for us.

Thanks! I think this clears the air on where you stand on one of the fundamentals of the gospel.

It is against my convictions in the word God to criticise a man that God is using. Even if I dont understand him or believe in his structure. If Gods grace is evident in a man. I should be careful so that I don't sin. God knows why he chose him.

Okay no problem, I can respect that. I will ask in a more general sense now -
Q1: what about false teachers/prophets/pastors? how do you handle the issue of false brethren in the midst of the church? how do you recognize a man/woman is truly not of God and do you speak out on it? expose the person as a wolf in sheeps clothing? or if not why?

Q2: Related to Q1. Do you believe there are false churches out there? what should be the body's attitude to them? hostile or indifferent? do you believe we have/don't have an obligation to speak out against them?

@kunleoshob

KunleOshob:

@joagbaje
I have a fairly good idea of CEC messages, I have listened to several CE programmes on TV, I have also heard personal accounts from members and best of all I have teachings from you a confirmed CEC pastor and adherent so I can safely make my conclusions. Jesus already taught us we would be able to discern false teachers by their fruits, the fruits of CEC that I see certainly qualifies the promoter as a top rate FALSE teacher.

So what falsehood did you find in the messages?

@Jo:

Please forgive Kunle's interruption and answer Jesoul's questions replicated thus -

JeSoul:

Q1: what about false teachers/prophets/pastors? how do you handle the issue of false brethren in the midst of the church? how do you recognize a man/woman is truly not of God and do you speak out on it? expose the person as a wolf in sheeps clothing? or if not why?

Q2: Related to Q1. Do you believe there are false churches out there? what should be the body's attitude to them? hostile or indifferent? do you believe we have/don't have an obligation to speak out against them?

JeSoul:
q
 what about false teachers/prophets/pastors? how do you handle the issue of false brethren in the midst of the church? how do you recognize a man/woman is truly not of God and do you speak out on it? expose the person as a wolf in sheeps clothing? or if not why?

The bible talks about false teachers and false brethren coming into the body of christ. They are  individuals that Satan lay hold on in the church. To penetrate and poison the body with polutions. These individuals will attack structures in the church, speak against men of God , try to win peoples approval by claiming they are fighting for the masses. .

2 Peter 2:1-3
1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

Jesus had laid structures in his body, but these individuals will go against such word based structures and thereby deny his lordship by rejecting the authority of the word. throu

2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of

These are individuals that brings public shame to the body of christ. They will have no respect for authorities in the church.

2 Peter 2:10-13
10 But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous[ are they], selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities. [/b]11 Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord.

They say evil things about what they don't understand

12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, [b]speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;


The first sign of these self acclaimed false teachers is attack against Gods ordained institution in the body of christ by speaking evil of ministers of God. And such take delight in making mockery of spiritual things .

Jude 1:16-19
16 These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling[ words], having men's persons in admiration because of advantage. 17 But, beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ; 18 How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts. 19 These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit.

Q2: Related to Q1. Do you believe there are false churches out there?

No, there is no false church but there can be false doctrine and false brethren in the church. And the word of God has rules  .

what should be the body's attitude to them? hostile or indifferent? do you believe we have/don't have an obligation to speak out against them? [/color]

Firstly , what is falsehood .The fact that we don't agree on every doctrine should not make me call you false. Division in the body of christ is satins strategy, and many so called Christians are playing into his hand. There are a thousand and one doctrinal differences . But we ought to accept one another provideded we are born again.

In one churches like assemblies or deeper life , it is wrong for men and women to sit together . But in CEC , house on the rock , they sit together. In one church , they can't shake hands with opposite gender, in another they not only shake hands they hug . Some even do holy kiss.( on the cheek) while to some it's abomination. All these differences have been there from the beginning of the church. Some eat all things , some don't.

Romans 14:1-6
1 Him that is weak in the faith receive ye,[ but] not to doubtful disputations. 2 For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs. 3 Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him. 4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand. 5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day[ alike]. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind. 6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth[ it] unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard[ it]. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.

So on what ground do we call someone false? By our limited knowledge or by the word. And if we believe a minister has false doctrine  . Our first responsibility is prayer to get him out of the mess. And if we have opportunity. We share with him in love to see the errors . Just like  was corrected by pricsilla and her husband acquila (acts18:24-26). And we don't correct with insults and abuses . Because if you become judgemental , you set a trap for yourself.

James 3:1
1 Dear brothers, don't be too eager to tell others their faults, for we all make many mistakes; and when we teachers of religion, who should know better, do wrong, our punishment will be greater than it would be for others.

Fowl language against the church, or ministers is a big  error. "despising dominion" right from Old Testament to the new. Not even ministers alone . Even brethren . You don't call Gods people a name their father has not called them. That doesn't make us more spiritual. Your spirituality is first evident in your speech.

That is the error some posters here have entered without knowing.

James 3:9-16
9 Therewith bless we God, even the Father; and therewith curse we men, which are made after the similitude of God. 10 Out of the same mouth proceedeth blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not so to be. 11 Doth a fountain send forth at the same place sweet[ water] and bitter? 12 Can the fig tree, my brethren, bear olive berries? either a vine, figs? so[ can] no fountain both yield salt water and fresh. 13 Who[ is] a wise man and endued with knowledge among you? let him shew out of a good conversation his works with meekness of wisdom. 14 But if ye have bitter envying and strife in your hearts, glory not, and lie not against the truth. 15 This wisdom descendeth not from above, but[ is] earthly, sensual, devilish. 16 For where envying and strife[ is], there[ is] confusion and every evil work

The bible says every body should be persuaded in his own mind. Why will you condemn someone for his persuasion in the Word? let the master judge him. Can we escape God?

If there are  false ministers , God says we should not listen to them.especially if he contradicts Pauls teachings. Paul says the curse of God will be on the fellow. Not my curse or abuse not Kunle curse. How I'm I certain I'm right in the first place to judge and condemn a minister whom God has accepted. Those who do such only prove that they are children in spiritual understanding. Our first duty is to pray against such evil doctrine.

It is against the rules even in evangelism to attack other faiths and especially, the leaders. When you communicate truth without the spirit of love , you've lost it, 

But talking about the body of christ ,What do we do? Two things . We pray and we teach the truth.then leave the rest for God. Jesus knows what to do in his body . In our bid to take laws into our hand . We work against christ himself. And destroy the body we feel we are protecting.  Jesus gave us clear outline here.

Matthew 13:24-30
24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field: 25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way. 26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also. 27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares? 28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up? 29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

I think this scripture is more than enough for everyone of us.