DirtyGold:
I believe there is God.

Religion is the problem!

And no, it doesn't have to make sense to you either.

budaatum:

It is unfortunate that "believe there is God" tends to come from "Religion" which you have identified as the problem, which you've further shown by stating "doesn't have to make sense to you either", which just goes to show how much of a problem it can be.

Imagine being asked to believe in the existence of a thing that makes no sense to you. Won't you ask why, at least? In fact, lets try it. Believe the earth is flat. Or that nothing evolves. Let me know how that goes.

In my opinion, a god that requires stupidity and ignorance should be judged, found guilty, and taken to the bottom of the river and have its head bashed in so it stops existing, unless it wasn't that same god that put a brain in one's head hoping one would use it.

An Almighty God cannot demand such ignorance and stupidity and would most definitely require understanding or would not have bothered sending so many prophets and Jesus Christ to come teach you about God

DirtyGold:

You need to read my post again. Religion only tries to provide a platform for the natural instinct of man and its need for a connection to the Supreme Being. The resason you think knowledge of God comes from religion is because of how we are now born into it and how societies have been formed around religion. It is interesting how you can muddle up the first and last statement to create a problem that doesn't exist.

DirtyGold:
It does not make sense to you because the religion you grew up in programmed you with certain bogus believes that defy logic.

DirtyGold:
A lot of those beliefs you probably believed and held as golden rules once upon a time dont exist in other religions or even variations of the same religion you grew up in. How then do you blame God for what the founders of your religion documented with their limited knowledge? Evolution, science and space exploration are products of man's intellectual development and doesn't remotely suggest man's independence, rather it provokes thoughts of how marvellous the universe is and how much more we dont know yet... all of which cannot be attributed to nothingness or random arrangements.

DirtyGold:
All sorts of gods exist and you can do that to them. However, God created you with that brain to think and understand the world you live in and see how all fit together and appreciate its Maker. So, yes, use your brain to think about all these ideas and questions and you might find answers.

budaatum:

You wouldn't have any knowledge of a Supreme Being if no one indoctrinated you to believe in one through religion, and the only natural instinct being fulfilled by it is that if ignorance which education would fill if you allowed it.

It was you who said you don't understand, and not me. Go read yourself again.

Blame God? Me? You need to go find out about me instead of allowing your "natural instinct" to delude you. buda does not believe and was not born into a religion.

DirtyGold:

It is easy for you to say this because of how much man has achieved in development. When you need fire, why don't your brain think of rubbing stones together like our forefathers did? You easily grab some matches or lighter or something electrical because they have been created. Same with religion; that primal drive already has a platform in existence already.

budaatum:

"Rubbing stones together like our forefathers did" is the equivalent of not learning anything since one's forefathers. Even one's forefathers would call one stupid for ignoring everything one has learnt since then. You might as well ask me to communicate with drums instead of using modern technology.

budaatum:

Religion is a platform for learning and advancement, and not just doing what one's forefathers did. Believing what one's forefathers believed, believing at all, instead of learning and understanding, is just plain dumb. Some might like being that way, but I think that would be against God's command that one "Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky and over every living creature that moves on the ground", and be blessed. It would also be a waste of Christ who's entire existence and teachings was to reduce ignorance and stupidity and live.

DirtyGold:

Please, read to understand. I used the rubbing stone analogy to show you that you wont think of that because we already have channels of getting fire quickly and without stress. Although the need for fire is there, you wont think of it like our forefathers did which is because the humanity we enjoy today is benefiting from incremental accumulation of knowledge.

DirtyGold:
And here you are quoting supposedly "God words and Christ's life" without believing in them.

DirtyGold:

Religion is a platform for learning, advancement, integration, growth and much more. Absolutely true! I never said anything to the contrary like I clarified in the previous quote. We've learnt from our forefathers and we dont revert to their ways because of where we are today. However, that does not mean that we dont have the same instincts, drives and needs as they did back then... we just have better channels for them now.

Bluezy13:
You believe there is God.
You don't belong to any religion.

You think religion is individualistic, everybody is an inventor of his own.

You believe there is God...that means God is somewhere, occupying a place, a location.
Where ??

You don't belong to any religion, please what is your relationship with this God that you claim exist ?? How do you interact ?? Or you just believe there is God and that is all ??

No quest to decipher the mystery behind his existence ??

If there is God, that means God is a person, being, intelligence, thing or form.

If a person, who is he ??

If a being, what essence is he ??

If a thing, What is he ??
If a form, What form ??

I'm not after the argument about God and religion. I'm after the existence of the "God" himself.

We can't discuss the way to God when we don't even know God himself/itself.

I'm a Freethinker.

LordReed:
By what means did you come to believe a god exists? You just intuited it?

hakeem4:
well! you can decide to believe in one or as many gods as possible, that is your business. the only question i have is which of the theistic god is true, and what evidence to back up the claim

budaatum:

You are describing evolution. Love that.

Believing in "God and Christ", is very differnt to understanding the words associated to them. Or do you think one has to believe Alice fell through a looking glass to learn from the book? Do you have to believe in Okonkwo and Ikemefuna to learn from Things Fall Apart? Is that not what it means to "read and understand" instead of merely believing with no understanding whatsoever?

What same instinct and drives? To live? Then yes. The world our forefathers lived in is very different to the one we live in so applying the solutuons of our forefathers won't necessarily solve the problens we face today. It would be odd for me to abandon common lighter and matches and start rubbing stones to get fire.

I think you are looking for division and an argument instead of seeing where we agree. My advise, read and understand instead of thinking others can't read and understand!

DirtyGold:

Thank you for helping me mind my business.
God exists, that is the message of this thread!
The evidence is everywhere. The ones science are proving for you are small compared to what science cannot prove or is yet to even have a method or tool for probing. Yet, all that exists have their timing, functions and arrangement without man's input. Look within you and beyond yourself and know that all that exists couldn't have come from nothing.

DirtyGold:

The history of man reinforces that natural knowledge/instinct of the existence of God and a need to connect with Him. And what is more, the universe is a testament to the fact that God exists, if He didn't, who created all that exists including those men are yet to discover? the big bang theory?

DirtyGold:

The history of man reinforces that natural knowledge/instinct of the existence of God and a need to connect with Him. And what is more, the universe is a testament to the fact that God exists, if He didn't, who created all that exists including those men are yet to discover? the big bang theory?

DirtyGold:

I was expecting you to say that. What I said has nothing to do with the charles darwin evolution that fits this conversation. Because that implies man changing form from apes to becoming the erect homo sapiens that exists now. Incremental knowledge in the sense that, we grow in communities and knowledge in passed down from generation to generation and is improved as time passes. When Information tech was just starting out, a 2mb storage device was the size of a walk in fridge. The phones our grandfathers used is different from what we use today... incremental knowledge refines....

DirtyGold:
You don't believe in a thing, yet, you are quoting and "understanding" words associated with them. Why bother? Since they dont exists to you and you dont believe in them, why dont you refuse to acknowledge them.

DirtyGold:
In the context of Things fall apart, those characters exists in the play and that is why you have names to make reference to. Why didn't you mention buhari and trump instead of Okonkwo and Ikemefuna?

DirtyGold:
Reading and understanding has a third element which is perspective... and that is what I think is riling you up; my bad!

DirtyGold:
Same instincts and drive of survival, hunger, sex, shelter, protection, connection to a Higher power.
Like I said earlier, we dont revert to thinking or doing things like our forefathers because we have better methods, platforms and channels for serving or fulfilling this drives. My brother, if/when you find yourself outside civilization, you will understand how to cope with the methods of our forefathers.

DirtyGold:
Certainly not, I just felt you were deliberating refusing to work with what I've said by misinterpreting/misquoting me. Perspectives are different and I've acknowledged that above

hakeem4:


well you just committed the argument from ignorance fallacy!
first of all science is not atheism!!!!!
[/b]

There was a time when syphilis used to be a curse from god, later science found the cure to the disease. Now, because we do not understand somethings about the world does not make it an evidence for god, it is just an evidence of lack of understanding

Ronpet777:


You blow my mind. I like your pattern of reasoning as you have successfully filled a huge vacuum in my thought process. Most religions are porous and full of imperfections and people especially the Atheists quickly use that as a yardstick to obliterate God. God exist and religions create the link to HIM but may not be wholesome.

LordReed:


The history of man reinforces the idea that god or gods are a primitive attempt to explain the universe and its existence.

The existence of the universe is not sufficient reason to believe any claim.

The reason why 419 exists is because people do not engage critically and obtain sufficient evidence of the fantastic claims being made.

We cannot say if a who created this universe because there is no evidence of a who.

The big bang is how scientist have explained the earliest time of the emergence of our space-time based on available data.

budaatum:

Only those who wish to blind themselves see evolution as "man changing form from apes to becoming the erect homo sapiens that exists now". There's a lot more to it than that, and even you know that since you were "expecting you to say that" in response.

I'm implying "knowledge in passed down from generation to generation and is improved as time passes". Basically, evolution. It's the reason I have matches and a lighter that has evolved from rubbing stones to make fire. "Incremental knowledge" has refined how I light fires.

The words in a book do not exist? You are funny! I wonder where what we quote comes from then. Need I show sources for them so you know I don't just make up the words I quote? Do tell, is there any merit in loving ones enemies, or doing unto others as one might want done unto one? And why believe what you know as if you merely believe and haven't tested it?

The two who walked past the man who was "stripped of his clothes, beat and left half dead", were both believers, while the one who "saw him, took pity on him, bandaged his wounds pouring on oil and wine, then put the man on his own donkey, brought him to an inn and took care of him, and the next day took out two denari and gave them to the innkeeper saying, ‘Look after him and when I return, I will reimburse you for any extra expense you may have", was an unbeliever and the one Christ said, “Go and do likewise”.

Consider that I can not possibly be referring to what I do not acknowledge, and what I refer to and acknowledge deserves a lot more than just believing it.

You'll have to elaborate on this. What do you think my perspective might be, and what makes you think I am riling?

Please know that you have in no way offended me.

Unless you mean "find yourself outside civilization" with no opportunity to pack matches and lighter, you might be right here, but if you have ever tried lighting a fire with stones, you'd know how difficult it is if you don't know how.

I myself like being prepared, and do not embark on ventures without preparation, so it's very unlikey I'd find myself needing to light a fire with stones. The world I live in is nowhere like that of "our forefathers, I guess, and " the higher power" of understanding serves me very very well.

Well, I hope you change your mind about what you felt after considering the evidence instead of just believing whatever you want to believe.

Remember I said you don't know me and you said you don't care? That knowing was about perspective, and we are here explaining each others perspective to one another, which I think is work to make one understood. You sir are working hard and it's appreciated.

DirtyGold:

What evidence? Nobody has produced a single evidence against the existence of God - just fallacious logic!

DirtyGold:

That is not evolution at all. You should check the meaning of evolution again.

DirtyGold:

Yet, the concept of religion or worship of God predates science. History has on record that men from all parts of the world had some kind of worship of God(god-s) even before they knew other humans existed.

So, the universe and all its contents in their different structures, functionalities, uniqueness, intelligence and design just started existing just like that? How come no man has been able to create anything out of nothing... just think it and it appears like magic!

More like greed and low IQ... I will consider it 419 if you cannot provide evidence that God does not exist despite everything in existence that you cannot satisfactorily provide explanation as to how, why, where and what created them the way they are.

So, we should just assume that like magic, nothingness created everything just for the fun of it?

What data? The ones scientists like you and I recorded? Or marks, locations, materials and imprints that can be tracked on the universe?

DirtyGold:


So, the universe and all its contents in their different structures, functionalities, uniqueness, intelligence and design just started existing just like that? How come no man has been able to create anything out of nothing... just think it and it appears like magic!

budaatum:

It is unfortunate that "believe there is God" tends to come from "Religion" which you have identified as the problem, which you've further shown by stating "doesn't have to make sense to you either", which just goes to show how much of a problem it can be.

Imagine being asked to believe in the existence of a thing that makes no sense to you. Won't you ask why, at least? In fact, lets try it. Believe the earth is flat. Or that nothing evolves. Let me know how that goes.

In my opinion, a god that requires stupidity and ignorance should be judged, found guilty, and taken to the bottom of the river and have its head bashed in so it stops existing, unless it wasn't that same god that put a brain in one's head hoping one would use it.

An Almighty God cannot demand such ignorance and stupidity and would most definitely require understanding or would not have bothered sending so many prophets and Jesus Christ to come teach you about God!

Things that exist are known and not merely believed like satan is said to believe and tremble.

budaatum:

I so love Christ. He is written to have said, "All that you do for those whom you see before you pleases the Lord your God in Heaven whom you see not".

Yet, some still go looking for God in heaven.

budaatum:


https://www.nairaland.com/5238668/evolution-101

LordReed:


Age has no bearing on truthfulness.

What did your god God make the universe from?

I don't make the claim that god doesn't exist. You who is making the claim that a god exists are the one who needs to prove it.

There are sufficient explanations for why the universe is the way it is. Those explanations do not require a god and they work quite well since they predict more accurately what kind of results we shall get when certain actions are taken.

The device you are using to communicate is one such result and it requires no god at any point to actualise.

Don't put words in my mouth, I don't mention magic so just stop that if you want an honest conversation.

Yes.

BoncoBoy:


So u accept that the universe cannot just start to exist but ur God which is much more complex than the universe can just start to exist abi??

How did this your god start to exist