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Nairaland Forum / Nairaland / General / Politics / Saraki An Egba Man? (6319 Views)
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Re: Saraki An Egba Man? by Nobody: 9:52am On Dec 08, 2010 |
So Suraj, which one are you? Yoruba or Northerner? Which language do you speak? A Yoruba Northerner? hmmm iyen ko possible sha. |
Re: Saraki An Egba Man? by Jarus(m): 9:57am On Dec 08, 2010 |
Ileke-IdI:I tire o. You still no get my lecture up there. Ani iyato wa ninu 'region' ati 'ethnicity'. I'm a Yoruba Northerner. Plain and simple. They are not mutually exclusive. |
Re: Saraki An Egba Man? by oludashmi(f): 10:00am On Dec 08, 2010 |
Ileke, what Jarus is saying is that kwara pple are 100% Yorubas ethnically and culturally but northerners under Nigeria's geographical classification. Just as some ibos are not grouped under the SE. |
Re: Saraki An Egba Man? by Jarus(m): 10:04am On Dec 08, 2010 |
oludashmi:Thanks for the explanation jare, but I did not say the bolded. Kwara is not 100% Yoruba. It's multi-ethnic. We Yorubas are the majority, but we have other tribes like Batonum, Nupe, Fulani etc. |
Re: Saraki An Egba Man? by DapoBear(m): 10:04am On Dec 08, 2010 |
Jarus:
It doesn't appear that Kwara was officially classified as part of the "North" anywhere in the constitution, though. In fact, neither exists in that document, at least from my quick search. Before 1914, there was a Northern and Southern protectorate. But those no longer exist. Just states. |
Re: Saraki An Egba Man? by Nobody: 10:05am On Dec 08, 2010 |
Jarus:Yea, that's for modifying your post, didnt see your "lecture" a few minutes ago. Altho Kwara seems more of a SW state to me. |
Re: Saraki An Egba Man? by Nobody: 10:07am On Dec 08, 2010 |
oludashmi: Ok, got you Jarus:Not 100% Yoruba, but it IS a Yoruba state. Just clarifying a few errors. |
Re: Saraki An Egba Man? by johnie: 10:24am On Dec 08, 2010 |
Jarus: Brilliant analysis Jarus. But I think I'll go with DapoBear on this one. I think it is time we did away with this noth-south nonsense. We had even gone beyond it to the six geo-political zones structure since the days of Abacha. Why do we want to cling to the colonial relic of north-south dichotomy? I find it interesting that one is still defined in modern Nigeria by his history (e.g. Saraki is an Egba man historically), geography (notherther/ southerner) and tribe (permit my use of the term-Hausa-Fulani/Igbo/Ijaw/Edo/Anang/Ibibio/Yoruba,etc)! |
Re: Saraki An Egba Man? by Jarus(m): 10:27am On Dec 08, 2010 |
@ Ileke, I agree we share cultural affinity with SW than North, at least those of us Yoruba, who are the majority. Many a time, I mistakenly refer to myself as being form the SW sef. The Nupe, Baruten people however are more like Hausa/Fulani, culturally. @ Dapobear, a few questions: - During the northern and southern protectorate era, where was present day Kwara? - During the regional system era, where was the present day Kwara classified? It is when we trace back history to pre-20th century that we begin to trace the history of the Yoruba Kwara and Fulani Kwara separately.The Yoruba from Oyo, the Fulani from Sokoto, and that's very complicated. I personally hold the opinion that Ilorin is a mixture of Yoruba and Fulani, but I'm tired of debating this issue. The descendants of Alimi are Fulani, and the descendants of Afonja are Yoruba. Who, among the two, actually owns Ilorin? Both, my take. Both of them were migrants, Afonja migrating from Oyo and Alimi from Sokoto. But who rules Ilorin? The Fulani has been dominating. The political classification began in the early 20th century. That doesn't mean we are losing our Yoruba history. Ethnicity cannot be changed. It's natural. Political classification can be changed. Today a government can come and reclassify Yoruba part of Kwara to SW and the other tribes to NC. But nobody can come and say we are no longer Yoruba or that our Nupe brothers are no longer Nupe etc. |
Re: Saraki An Egba Man? by oludashmi(f): 10:31am On Dec 08, 2010 |
DapoBear:I think jarus got that mixed up cos Northern and Southern protectorate only became married in 1914. Anyway, kwara is a Yoruba land but there are Nupes in parts of Jebba and Fulanis just as he stated. @Jarus Do you know one funny thing. . . in my last visit to Jebba, the Nupes said they do not belong to kwara state (if not for the nigerian government) but Niger state. They recalled how their fathers were moved to kwara state cos the government (I ve forgotten the name of the head of state as at then) wanted to use their land. They still maintain that they only follow orders from Niger state and not kwara state. |
Re: Saraki An Egba Man? by Nobody: 10:36am On Dec 08, 2010 |
oludashmi: They can claim whatever they desire. As long as they're ready to move out [b]when [/b]the country breaks. Hopefully, they're not expecting us to leave a piece of our land for them. That would be very tragic. |
Re: Saraki An Egba Man? by Jarus(m): 10:41am On Dec 08, 2010 |
I'm aware there is a part of Jebba called 'Jebba Niger' and a part called 'Jebba Kwara', but whether the 'Jebba Niger' is officialy recognized as Niger state or whether the whole of Jebba is classified as Kwara is what I don't know. |
Re: Saraki An Egba Man? by DapoBear(m): 10:47am On Dec 08, 2010 |
Jarus:Jarus, many of the people you call Yoruba now in Kwara, their ancestors were not. I'm sure you are familiar with the history of Ilorin and Afonja's rebellion. A lot of his forces were runaway Hausa slaves, for example. Those guys eventually forgot Hausa, intermarried (or quite possibly did NOT intermarry!), and today speak Yoruba. A similar process happened in Ibadan, actually (there is an interesting book I read recently on google books describing this process.) So Yoruba ancestry/identity/whatever is quite fluid. North, North. Jarus, how many pure Fulani are there even still in Kwara? Abdulsalam (Alimi's son and heir), his mother was Yoruba. So even your current Emir is a least 50% Yoruba. You sort of see what I'm saying? Look, China was conquered in the past by foreign invaders. Who were eventually adopted Chinese culture and were absorbed into it. From my observations, this is what has happened in Kwara. If there were tons and tons of pure Fulani running around, and your Emir himself was a pure Fulani, then I might be able to concede that Ilorin is a Fulani town. But there is no way that is the case. Even the "Fulani" in Ilorin are very likely genetically 50%+ Yoruba. So in my mind, Ilorin is a Yoruba town, and Kwara sef a Yoruba state. I suspect if Kwarans ever have to choose one day between North and SW, they will choose the latter. But this is again just my guess. Ultimately, this is sort of a hearts and minds thing, not a political classification thing. I grew up in Maryland in the US. At one point it was considered a Southern state. Nowadays, it is not, mostly because the inhabitants of the state view themselves as having more in common with the idealogical North (Democratic Party, liberalism, etc) of the country rather than the South (Republican Party, conservatism, Evangelical Christianity, etc). Anyway, I want to see this mental realignment occur one day in Kwara. I actually know that southern Kwara (I guess Owu?) for historical reasons has always identified with the SW. But I think this will happen more generally, once guys like Saraki are booted out of power. |
Re: Saraki An Egba Man? by johnie: 10:57am On Dec 08, 2010 |
The point is that in Nigeria today, what is constitutionally (politically) recognised are states of the federation - 36 states not 4 regions (counting the mid-west) or 2 protectorates. To say that one is a southerner or northerner should be a misnomer in Nigeria of 2010. Why haven't you said that you are a north-centralist (of the six geo-political zones) in your definition of your person? Jarus: @DapoBear DapoBear:I am happy you made the distinction of IDEOLOGICAL North/South in the US as opposed to geographical north/south. That (ideology) is the way to go for us not geography or history |
Re: Saraki An Egba Man? by Katsumoto: 11:04am On Dec 08, 2010 |
DapoBear: Afonja had an issue with Alaafin Aole and sent a calabash to the Alaafin signifying that he no longer respected his rule. In 1817, Afonja then invited a muslim scholar, Alimi, to Ilorin ostensibly to fortify himself with more charms. At this point, even with Ilorin, an out post town of the Oyo empire, isolated from the rest the rest of the empire, the Fulani did not attack Ilorin. In 1823, Alimi died and Abdulsalam became his successor. Abdusalam then sent for the Caliphate flag and Ilorin came under the Emirate of Gwandu. There was no armed rebellion in Ilorin Read Samuel Johnson's 'History of the Yorubas' and a book by Professor Akin-jogbin; I can't remember the title now. |
Re: Saraki An Egba Man? by Jarus(m): 11:07am On Dec 08, 2010 |
Now I see our arguments converging. Both I'm not from Ilorin, I'm from Offa, which is 100% Yoruba, as is the case with all other communities in Kwara South. Ilorin is not the only town in Kwara, although it is by far the largest and most important. It is only Ilorin that has a debatable ethnicity, Kwara South is indisputably Yoruba. The Nupes, Barubas of Kwara North are not in any way Yoruba. The Kwara central and Ilorin is mixed, but largely Yoruba too. So I'm not sure a Nupe man(they have also produced governor - Shaaba Lafiaji 1991-1992) or a Baruba man(Bio, current sporst minister, Farooq Kperog, NVS writer are Baruba) will agree with you that Kwara is a Yoruba state. But given the fact that other tha the SW states, no state is 100% a single tribe in Nigeria, we can loosely call Kwara by the majority tribe, a Yoruba state. I suspect if Kwarans ever have to choose one day between North and SW, they will choose the latter.Being quite conversant with Kwara, your guess is not exactly correct. This is the mindset: KWARA SOUTH(purely Yoruba): Prefer SW KWARA NORTH(Nupe, Baruba etc): Prefer NC KWARA CENTRAL(debatable history, between Yoruba nd Fulani): Almost 50-50 preference. Some will tell you they are not Yoruba but Fulani even if his/her name is Bukola or Toyin and can't speak a single word in Hausa, not to talk of Fulbe. Some others wil tell you they are Yoruba. But politically, majority prefer North. |
Re: Saraki An Egba Man? by oludashmi(f): 11:16am On Dec 08, 2010 |
Ileke-IdI:lol Jarus:Jebba nigers fall within Niger state. that is, after the river niger bridge which is the boundary of kwara and Niger state while Jebba kwara are within kwara state, just at the river niger bridge. The River niger bridge is the breaking force btw the Jebba niger and Jebba kwara, so Nupes that fall within kwara should be the one they refer to as Jebba kwara. All the same, they (jebba kwara and jebba niger) are Nupes and acknowledge that they belong to Niger. |
Re: Saraki An Egba Man? by Jarus(m): 11:19am On Dec 08, 2010 |
Why haven't you said that you are a north-centralist (of the six geo-political zones) in your definition of your person?The common statements '19 Northern states' and '17 Southern states' mean North and South still exist. |
Re: Saraki An Egba Man? by DapoBear(m): 11:20am On Dec 08, 2010 |
Katsumoto: Ah, I'm not claiming that there was armed rebellion WITHIN Ilorin. Just discussing some of the demographics of Afonja's troops:
(As an aside, I also found some historical reports on JSTOR of some of these titled families in Kwara who are descendants of these Hausa slaves, but instead claim to have Fulani ancestry.) |
Re: Saraki An Egba Man? by DapoBear(m): 11:27am On Dec 08, 2010 |
Jarus:Whoops, sorry for confusing Offa and Owu, lol. I see, thanks for clarifying. I see. But the central alignment with North is probably mostly Saraki's influence, no? And how does it cut across generations? Youth versus middle-aged versus elderly folk? |
Re: Saraki An Egba Man? by excanny: 11:35am On Dec 08, 2010 |
Jarus:I think this is one of the reasons why Kwara and some states in Nigeria are lagging behind in development on a daily basis. There's no way you can loop people who have different ideologies and political destiny together, and expect them to move as one. This is one area where the past military juntas did a very crazy job. Personally, i'm a advocate of boundary adjustment(it may not be a creation of new states), but there should be a kind of referendum in which people will be asked where they want to belong to, after which, they'll be group into their chosen states. The nupes for example might what to join the majority nupes in Niger state. The okuns in Kogi may want to join the predominantly yoruba Kwara south, etc. This will give folks like Saraki an opportunity to be in Kwara or be absorbed in other fulani communities. |
Re: Saraki An Egba Man? by Pukkah: 11:53am On Dec 08, 2010 |
excanny: This is a simple and plausible solution to this issue. Do a boundary adjustment to move the various people appropriately and put an end to some funny descriptions like 'Yoruba Northerner' around that area. |
Re: Saraki An Egba Man? by Katsumoto: 11:59am On Dec 08, 2010 |
excanny: Very sound suggestion |
Re: Saraki An Egba Man? by Pukkah: 12:06pm On Dec 08, 2010 |
DapoBear: Could you kindly elaborate on the similar process that happened in Ibadan? |
Re: Saraki An Egba Man? by johnie: 12:22pm On Dec 08, 2010 |
Jarus: I don't think that proves that North and South still exist. I agree that there's common reference to '19 northern states' but '17 southern states'? That's very rare. While there is a Northern Governors Forum, there's no such forum for the 'southerners' instead you have the South-east governors forum (for one of the 6 GPZs)(http://allafrica.com/stories/201002020747.html). in the south west, Oodua used to be a platform for the SW governors but with the political fragmentation of the zone along party lines (i.e PDP-AD/AC[N]/LP) this has disintegrated. The idea of a unified north is being tested with this PDP northern consensus candidate debacle. I hope that the result will be a jettisioning of the idea of a politically unified north (usually masqueraded with the allusion to the 19 nothern states) which has always been a mirage given that even in the first republic we had parties like the United Middle Belt Congress (UMBC), Bornu Youth Movement (BYM), Igala Union, Igbira Tribal Union , Northern Elements Progressive Union (NEPU) in addition to the Northern People's Congress (NPC). I am not canvassing a return to these tribal parties. What I would like to see are parties with ideologies. I also agree with excanny on the issue of boundary re-alignment. Much harm has been done to minority people in some of the states where they have their kins in the majority in adjoining states. A re-hash of the 1884 Berlin Conference demarcation of Africa? @ PUkkah, let's do away with the idea of geographical northerner/southerner altogether! |
Re: Saraki An Egba Man? by DapoBear(m): 12:23pm On Dec 08, 2010 |
@Pukkah: Custom & politics in urban Africa: a study of Hausa migrants in Yoruba towns, page 30: http://books.google.com/books?id=orO0DRiPvGMC&printsec=frontcover&dq=Custom+%26+politics+in+urban+Africa&hl=en&ei=LGj_TNS4IoGCsQPzu6GwCw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCsQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false Basically, some emancipated Hausa slaves were sort of caught culturally between Hausa and Yoruba. Claimed to be Hausa to the Hausa of Sabo (the Hausa district in Ibadan) and claim to be Yoruba to the Yoruba in Ibadan. Eventually gravitated towards the latter. This reminded me of the Sarakis Anyway, it isn't really a big deal, Yoruba probably aren't some sort of racially pure group. My guess is that we are a mix of a lot of things. And will continue to mix over time. The culture is a lot more important than genetics, to me |
Re: Saraki An Egba Man? by oludashmi(f): 12:56pm On Dec 08, 2010 |
excanny: Good point here. But you should know that this is Nigeria and such ethnic mix ups are not by accident, they are deliberately used to force/foster national unity, which I dont know if they have achieved. Just like the Ika, ikwerre etc which has generated issues for years. The Yoruba pple in kogi (Okun) claims Yoruba cos we speak the same lang but they have their own dialect just like any other part of Yoruba (I know some), so no prob about that. |
Re: Saraki An Egba Man? by tpia1: 2:36pm On Dec 08, 2010 |
excanny: not sure about the bolded. are homogenous states doing any better? and why do we always assume people's preferences based on ethnicity? some might have no problem with being multicultural. |
Re: Saraki An Egba Man? by Pukkah: 2:38pm On Dec 08, 2010 |
DapoBear: Thanks man. |
Re: Saraki An Egba Man? by aljharem(m): 3:41pm On Dec 08, 2010 |
Jarus: jarus pls can i ask when u became a northerner the northerners i know are kanuri, hausa, fulani, and other minority when did the yorubas become northerners i ask so opc in kwara did not know u are arewa before they start kill our brothers yorubas think they are clever they are the only group that has a state in 4 zones in nigeria to keep control of things 1 kwara northern state 2 kogi midle belt 3. a of edo because of cultural ties,,,,mid-west 4. ondo and rivers state because of itsekiri,,,,,,south state when will u yorubas be trusted when will u stop this impersonation i tell u u can take ur kwara and kogi and stop disuniting the north in the core north like borno and sokoto we all know that yorubas are not true muslim and are not truth northerners how can u be a northerner when u support opc in kwara and kogi how or do u think we are stu-pid |
Re: Saraki An Egba Man? by johnie: 3:52pm On Dec 08, 2010 |
alj harem: I DEY LAFF O! |
Re: Saraki An Egba Man? by jason12345: 4:10pm On Dec 08, 2010 |
alj harem: this guy done craze!!! . t[b]he best guy on nl!!![/b] |
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