Uyi Iredia:

*1 >>> i'm the one asking >>> what is it? religion ? or culture ? >>> or do i misunderstand morality ? >>> note that i assume morality to equate to right and wrong

I'd say it's neither. I think it's more likely to be biological because we have observed acts carried out by animals especially those close to humans that if they were performed by humans would be considered moral.

Uyi Iredia:

*2 >>> okay >>> but this point u made is one of the reasons I have repeatedly advanced as basis of my brandishing atheism a religion >>> religions evolve in like manner

Uh uh. I'm not going into this again.

Uyi Iredia:

*3 >>> u don't hear voices in your head   >>> like something that says do this ? do that ?   *never mind the cheesy smile I'm serious*

No I don't. But I do sometimes infer what another person would like me to do.

Uyi Iredia:

*4 >>> an enviable position indeed

Yeah.

Uyi Iredia:

*5 >>> how ?!

e.g a Medical Doctor can extend his shift for altruistic reasons without necessarily feeling a patient's suffering. A lawyer can aid an indigent client without feeling this client's loss.

Uyi Iredia:

*6 >>> this vaguely reminds me of one of Hitchens quotes >>> post a link backing up this claim

I don't really need a link. I just think that it's a major improvement that while slavery was acceptable in various religions, we as a global community frown on such an act.

Uyi Iredia:

*7 >>> i thought as much

Ok.

Uyi Iredia:

*8 >>> for one, the voice is similar to my real-life voice >>> and yes ! it is something like "X will like this e.t.c"

Ok. But I don't hear voices though.

Uyi Iredia:

*9 >>> no. i didn't construct the question well >>> it's more like this  >>> is it possible to have morality entirely, absolutely, without religion >>> like if there was no religion would there have been: this is good, this is bad. I think even those uninclined to religion will allow that they find similarity of their thoughts in a multitude of religions

Then we are in agreement.

Uyi Iredia:

*10 >>> deja vu   >>> i think u have said this b4

Maybe I have.

@Deep Sight:

Well considered. Or maybe I should not have broken it into two separate paragraphs, and I should also have included "Such" before Morality:

In morality, the person looks for a way to shine a favorable/honorable (ethical) light on an act in order to maintain a clear conscience. [size=14pt]Such[/size] morality will thus involve a lot of pretense and favour the cunning. People are good at analysis, strategy, manipulation and other means of justifying questionable actions (and even worse, if they have no beliefs in a superior power or being - they are excellent at justifying actions to themselves).

^^^ Appreciated. I just read your views on th "Assurance of Salvation" thread. That was most enriching. Cheers.

I appreciate the esteemed remark. Thanks, Deep Sight.

any more comments will be welcome

^^^ I really dont know what comments you are looking for. For heaven's sake the flip question could also be asked: "are theists moral?"

In my opinion, morality is not a constant. It's subject to change. As an atheist, i define my own morality. What i view as moral might be viewed as immoral by religious individuals and vice versa.

My 2 cents.

^^^

And i do not view myself as an immoral being ([s]at least compared to what the holier-than-thous do on a daily basis that send shivers down my spine[/s]).

This issue has been beaten to death on so many thread here before, the poster should have gone through previous threads before opening this one. . . . Morality is NOT objective it always comes as a result of experience or necessity and it is always evolving. . . . .Theist are NOT and can NEVER be more moral than atheist. Doing good because the act of doing good itself is good enough is MUCH better than doing good because you are afraid of punishment or expecting a reward. . . . .Morality does NOT come from religion.

mazaje:

This issue has been beaten to death on so many thread here before, the poster should have gone through previous threads before opening this one. . . . Morality is NOT objective it always comes as a result of experience or necessity and it is always evolving. . . . .Theist are NOT and can NEVER be more moral than atheist. Doing good because the act of doing good itself is good enough is MUCH better than doing good because you are afraid of punishment or expecting a reward. . . . .Morality does NOT come from religion.

blah blah blah

atheists have no propelling factor for doing good. atheists are more prone to evil than theists this is simply because they see themselves as unaccountable to anyone and as such a law unto themselves.

happy new year mazaje . . . how af u been?

noetic16:

blah blah blah 

atheists have no propelling factor for doing good. atheists are more prone to evil than theists this is simply because they see themselves as unaccountable to anyone and as such a law unto themselves.

happy new year mazaje . . . how af u been? 

If your comment is true, what do you have to say about the arrested hardened criminals such as arm robbers, kidnappers and ritualists who when interviewed ALWAYS blame the "devil" for everything? Our leaders loot billions on a daily basis and when the people complain, they urge them to pray fervently for the nation. Aren't they religious people? How did religion curb their propensity for crime? Nigeria easily passes as one of the most religious countries in the world. How has the immense abundance of religion helped our condition? Killings,Looting,Corruption and all sorts of negative attributes are abundant and yet. . .we are the most religious. Go to a several European countries that are predominantly atheist and it's blatantly obvious that Nigeria can NEVER come within a fraction close to their high level of morals/ethics/tolerance in the next 500 years. Keep dwelling in self delusion.

Like mazaje rightfully said :

An atheist does good for the sake of doing good.

A theist does good either because of religious dictates or for self reward.

Even a slowpoke can tell which is best among the two!

Nuff said! ! !

@noetic16 (again)

How many times have you heard of atheists engaging in violence with theists? How many atheists attach bombs to their bodies and blow themselves up? How many Atheists did you read about that went about during the bloody crusades during the Vatican era demanding that people denounce Christianity or die under the sword? How many times have you heard of an individual doing something outrageous for the sake of atheism? Huh? How many?

Morality like i said earlier is not a constant. It's changes all the time. The things that were considered moral in the past might be considered immoral today. Our moral compass is guided by our day-to-day experiences and not religion. I need not be religious to help my fellow man in need and when i do it, i do it because it feels good doing it and NOT because i want a reward of "blessings" from doing it. That's utter selfishness.

You can NEVER compare the morality of an atheist with a theist. A theist would rather take his January salary to to give to pastor as first fruit expecting huge blessings in rewards RATHER than assist his dying relative who's wasting away in the hospital. Still think you can compare morality between atheists and theists? Think again.

@ mazaje >>> you talk that way because you did not apply yourself to the specifics of my post >>> note that, i listed questions to be answered >>> answer them instead of bemoaning dead threads

Deep Sight:

^^^ I really dont know what comments you are looking for. For heaven's sake the flip question could also be asked: "are theists moral?"

you could essay the bolded part >>> and i'll be happy to oblige you as my time permits

noetic16:


happy new year mazaje . . . how af u been?

Happy new year to you too. . .May the year be very good to you, Its nice to see you around. . .Cheers. . .

blah blah blah Grin

atheists have no propelling factor for doing good. atheists are more prone to evil than theists this is simply because they see themselves as unaccountable to anyone and as such a law unto themselves.

happy new year mazaje . . . how af u been? Cheesy

i doubt morality being the preserve of theists. Failure to conform to contemporary morality is still social ostracism. religion more or less keeps to ancient standards and often conflicts with modern morality. For example, failure to use cintraceptives is seen as a sign of irresponsibility.

Uyi Iredia:

@ mazaje >>> you talk that way because you did not apply yourself to the specifics of my post >>> note that, i listed questions to be answered >>> answer them instead of bemoaning dead threads

you could essay the bolded part >>> and i'll be happy to oblige you as my time permits

Let me repeat again, most if not all the questions you have put forth have been beaten to death on other threads. . . .It baffles me to no end that theist like you make this argument. Atheism does not purport to contain any moral code of conduct for proper living. . . . . . . .Why some of you attack it on that point makes no sense. It's tantamount to blaming mathematics for not providing any moral code to a mathematician who commits murder. Mathematics and atheism are not meant to be grounds for a moral foundation, so to claim that immorality is a result of atheism or that atheist are immoral is completely ludicrous.

mazaje:

Let me repeat again, most if not all the questions you have put forth have been beaten to death on other threads. . . .It baffles me to no end that theist like you make this argument. Atheism does not purport to contain any moral code of conduct for proper living.  . . . . . . .Why some of you attack it on that point makes no sense. It's tantamount to blaming mathematics for not providing any moral code to a mathematician who commits murder.*1 Mathematics and atheism are not meant to be grounds for a moral foundation, so to claim that immorality is a result of atheism or that atheist are immoral is completely ludicrous. 

*1 >>> your post is off-key >>> it appears you simply looked at the title of my post *which was intended to garner much-needed attention* and jumped into conclusions >>> do read it again >>> and take care to read the bolder parts

Uyi Iredia:

I have been chanced to skim the works of Sartre where he emphasized that man was the one who creates his own morality. On a personal note, i side with atheists, when they say that one doesn't need religion to be moral, for the simple reason that; at a young age i observed my parents weren't particularly religious (they were pagans), yet they had strong moral fibre.

This brings me to a puzzle which I seek to make clear with questions i ask. They are as follows

[list]
[li]Isn't morality imbibed from religio-cultural elements of a society ?[/li]
[li]could it not be possible that the atheist get some of their moral fibre from the foresaid elements ?[/li]
[li]Religious or Irreligious, do you believe in the factuality of a conscience ?[/li]
[li]Is it justifable to do good for a future reward ?[/li]
[li]Is there any such thing as altruism ? (I think that altruism is still selfish precisely because of its empathy)[/li]
[li]Could there be morality independent of religion ?[/li]
[li]Do you allow that atheism/deism allows for sexual permissiveness ?[/li]
[/list]

in the 1st and 2nd question >>> i consider the fact that religion, culture and society are so enmeshed >>> an irreligious person will still have some 'religious traits'  e.g some people may not be religious but believe in a transcedental reality.Sagamite seems to fall into this class

in the 3rd question >>> i consider the still, small voice in my head >>> is it (just that) a conscience ? or the voice of the Holy Spirit ? or jargon-speak it is some kind of brain signal in the cerebral cortex (recently watched an old BBC documentary titled "Everything You Need To Know About The Brain" ? >>> or am i just hearing voices 

in the 4th & 5th >>> i wasn't just considering the fact that Christians apply themselves to their religion with the hope of heaven >>> i was musing on how common it is to hear something like "let me help you.maybe tomorrow you'll be a big man and help me when i'm in need'  >>> Dawkins says be altruistic , i suppose this, altruism is a somewhat reversed self-interest >>> more like "oh ! this is what this thing is suffering. let me help it because it makes me feel better to see that its sufferng ends."

in the 6th >>> my own answer is in the negative >>> because I do not know if there has been a time society existed without a form of religion >>> quite the opposite >>> thehomer (who seems well informed on evolution) should know that recent evolutionary theories surmise that the moment the brain evolved to accommodate man's establishment of society, religion appeared.

in the 7th >>> just curious >>> cuz on more than one occasion i've chanced unbelievers who are complacent about sex outside of marriage >>> DeepSight opinions here was the height