budaatum:


You must read the entire book in order to understand that as the wrathful God evolved into the loving Jesus Christ, so too do the ideas in the Bible evolve over time.

Sorry for butting in. I agree with alot of things you've said on this thread but I just want to quickly touch on this one point.

For starters, The God of the Bible cannot evolve or change in His very nature.
"For I am the Lord, I do not change (Malachi 3:6)."
"Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and comes down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shadow of turning (James 1:17)".
"Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever. Hebrew 13:8". Etc

Secondly, the concept that the God of the old testament is more of a wrathful God while Jesus in the new testament is the new and improved loving God is sort of a misreading of the nature of God by reading the old testament out of its ancient near eastern context. As you have rightly noted in this thread, reading the Bible in context is paramount to understanding it.
The biblical authors constantly speak about the love of God in both and the new testament.
"Anyone who does not love does not know God, because God is love. 1John 4:8"
“But you, O Lord, are a compassionate and gracious God, slow to anger, abounding in love and faithfulness.” Psalm 86:15"
“Your love, O Lord, reaches to the heavens, your faithfulness to the skies. Your righteousness is like the mighty mountains, your justice like the great deep. Psalm 36:5-6”
“‘Though the mountains be shaken and the hills be removed, yet my unfailing love for you will not be shaken nor my covenant of peace be removed,’ says the Lord, who has compassion on you.” Isaiah 54:10".
We have to remember again that God does not change.

Paul writing in the new testament talks of Jesus being the express image and exact representation of the invisible God. So basically instead of us having our own conception of God and trying to fit Jesus into it,we should rather look at Jesus to see the exact nature of God.

May I suggest a book.
Is God a Moral Monster? Making Sense of the Old Testament God by Paul Copan . I haven't read it myself but I've heard good things about it and how it helps readers view the old testament stories in their original ancient near eastern context.

Have a good one.

budaatum:

No need to apologise. I was an atheist.

I am afraid that you are just regurgitating what you have been told to believe. And as I said, it is how we are taught in Nigeria, to believe, even if we never go on to understand.

A study of the Gospels however shows that Jesus was about understanding rather than for one to just believe. A very good example of this is the Parable of the Good Samaritan. The Priest and the Levite were believers, but Christ said "Go and do like the unbelieving pagan worshipping Samaritan".

You went back to Christianity or ......

delkuf:
You see what this guy is saying. if u can't believe everything in the Bible, then don't believe in the Bible

That book was written by the hands of ordinary men like you. The book is no holier than any and every other book on this planet. It is inspired just as every other book of knowledge you have ever read was inspired by God, the same God.
So what makes the Bible special? The Bible contains the actual written word of God. The important messages in that book are messages direct from God Himself -- every word that comes from the mouth of God i.e the "And the Lord God said...", "Thus saith the Lord...", "I, the God of Abraham...", "Jesus Said...." etc. It is the manna that God gave the Israelites as they walked for many years through the wilderness..

Deuteronomy 8 vs 3-6 (ERV)
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3. And he humbled you and let you hunger and fed you with manna, which you did not know, nor did your fathers know, that he might make you know that man does not live by bread alone, but man lives by every word[a] that comes from the mouth of the Lord.
4. Your clothing did not wear out on you and your foot did not swell these forty years.
5. Know then in your heart that, as a man disciplines his son, the Lord your God disciplines you.
6. So you shall keep the commandments of the Lord your God by walking in his ways and by fearing him.

It's a clue revealed by Jesus Christ as He was tempted by Satan out in the wilderness... You could even say that He became fully the Word after spending 40 days and 40 nights in the wilderness Himself.

Matthew 4 vs 2-4 (ERV)
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2. And after fasting forty days and forty nights, he was hungry.
3. And the tempter came and said to him, “If you are the Son of God, command these stones to become loaves of bread.”
4. But he answered, “It is written,

“‘Man shall not live by bread alone,
but by every word that comes from the mouth of God.’”

Jesus Christ, the embodiment of the new Covenant, the word of God in human form... God's avatar!

budaatum:

The only authority superior to Jesus was his Father who art in Heaven, and He alone must the followers of Christ submit to as we should remind ourselves everytime we say:

Thy Will be done on earth, as it is done in heaven.

JWs stand firm for Jehovah's sovereignty, but we must be submissive to the worldly politicians in power, we only disobey them when they're demanding what doesn't rightfully belong to them 'OUR WORSHIP'. Mark 12:17

delkuf:
yeah, but not with the Bible. You cannot understand the Bible without believing in it. you must believe then understand.


And sorry for tagging you as an atheist

why do you think so? there is no rule that states you must believe the bible first before understanding it.

Daejoyoung:

why do you think so? there is no rule that states you must believe the bible first before understanding it.

It is not a rule. It is the way it is. That is why many of you don't know the Bible. read the Bible with the mind set of believing what it says and you will understand it. So you cannot understand the Bible without believing in it

delkuf:
It is not a rule. It is the way it is. That is why many of you don't know the Bible. read the Bible with the mind set of believing what it says and you will understand it. So you cannot understand the Bible without believing in it

And that is why I am asking you why you think so. Why should you believe the bible before understanding it, why not the other way round?

Kobojunkie:

That book was written by the hands of ordinary men like you. The book is no holier than any and every other book on this planet. It is inspired just as every other book of knowledge you have ever read was inspired by God, the same God.
So what makes the Bible special? The Bible contains the actual written word of God. The important messages in that book are messages direct from God Himself -- every word that comes from the mouth of God i.e the "And the Lord God said...", "Thus saith the Lord...", "I, the God of Abraham...", "Jesus Said...." etc. It is the manna that God gave the Israelites as they walked for many years through the wilderness..

It's a clue revealed by Jesus Christ as He was tempted by Satan out in the wilderness... You could even say that He became fully the Word after spending 40 days and 40 nights in the wilderness Himself.

Jesus Christ, the embodiment of the new Covenant, the word of God in human form... God's avatar!

So what is your point. That someone should believe some part of the Bible and not believe in the other part. It was written by ordinary men like me but they were inspired by God. so it is not just ordinary men that wrote the Bible, but men with the Holy Spirit in them. You see what I have been saying. You read the Bible trying to understand it without wanting to believe in it

Daejoyoung:

And that is why I am asking you why you think so. Why should you believe the bible before understanding it, why not the other way round?

Am still on the point that we cannot understand the Bible if we don't believe in it

LordReed:


Bodhisattva, I greet you.

lordReed , Good Morning , hope you had a swell night? ♥️♥️

Xavfra:


You went back to Christianity or ......

sounds like he did , I don't blame him religion is very very mentally manipulative , you have to be of strong mind to maintain your stance

delkuf:
So what is your point. That someone should believe some part of the Bible and not believe in the other part. It was written by ordinary men like me but they were inspired by God. so it is not just ordinary men that wrote the Bible, but men with the Holy Spirit in them. You see what I have been saying. You read the Bible trying to understand it without wanting to believe in it

The bible is a library of books put together by the early church in around 300 A.D.
Before then, there were so many books, for example the Didache and shepherd of hermes, read by the early church in addition to what we have today in the new testament, that were not included. The bible is not one book, and it was written by men like you and I. The bible has several authors across different time frames, and it is not really possible to believe in everything.
It is primarily a book of man with inspired teachings of God within it.

delkuf:
Am still on the point that we cannot understand the Bible if we don't believe in it

But you can. I understand a lot of the stories in the old testament and their context, without necessarily believing all of them happened as written.
When jesus taught in parables, he wants me to make use of my understanding first and to open my eyes. He was challenging my reasoning first and then my beliefs thereafter.

Daejoyoung:

The bible is a library of books put together by the early church in around 300 A.D.
Before then, there were so many books, for example the didache or shepherd of hermes, read by the early church in addition to what we have today in the new testament, that were not included. The bible is not one book, and it was written by men like you and I. The bible has several authors across different time frames, and it is not really possible to believe in everything.
It is primarily a book of man with inspired teachings of God within it.

You just quoted what I said. So I don't understand the long episode

delkuf:
You just quoted what I said. So I don't understand the long episode

That you can't believe everything in the bible, and that it was not dictated by God. It is a book of man that gives us the teachings of God. Was that what you said?

TheSourcerer:
lordReed , Good Morning , hope you had a swell night? ♥️♥️

Good morning! Yeah I did, how about you.

Daejoyoung:

But you can. I understand a lot of the stories in the old testament and their context, without necessarily believing all of them happened as written.
When jesus taught in parables, he wants me to make use of my understanding first and to open my eyes. He was challenging my reasoning first and then my beliefs thereafter.

Does that mean you did not believe in it. My point is you must believe. Even if you understand it, you must still believe. That is why many people are atheist today. They are trying to understand the Bible without believing in it

LordReed:


Good morning! Yeah I did, how about you.

super great , enjoy today man ! Let's live life to the fullest , cheers

TheSourcerer:
super great , enjoy today man ! Let's live life to the fullest , cheers

That's the goal bro. Cheers!

delkuf:
Does that mean you did not believe in it. My point is you must believe. Even if you understand it, you must still believe. That is why many people are atheist today. They are trying to understand the Bible without believing in it

ok I don't believe that a donkey spoke, or that all miracles in the bible happened the way they were described. I don't believe in the story of Noah's ark and how he housed all those species of animals. I have tried, but I find all of these and many more hard to believe. But I am not an atheist, and I want to obey the teachings of jesus christ and be led by his spirit.

Daejoyoung:

That you can't believe everything in the bible, and that it was not dictated by God. It is a book of man that gives us the teachings of God. Was that what you said?

No you are wrong. If you don't believe everything in the Bible, you don't believe in it at all. Now if someone says he believes in the ten commandments, but he don't believe that the Lord Jesus Christ died and rose from the dead on the third day, what will you tell that individual.

delkuf:
So what is your point. That someone should believe some part of the Bible and not believe in the other part. It was written by ordinary men like me but they were inspired by God. so it is not just ordinary men who wrote the Bible, but men with the Holy Spirit in them. You see what I have been saying. You read the Bible trying to understand it without wanting to believe in it

There is only one Spirit of Inspiration, and every work on this earth was inspired by that one Spirit of Inspiration. Your Bible happens to be just one of all those works inspired by the same spirit. So do not be deceived into thinking the book is the only book that contains knowledge that belongs to God.
We have no clear evidence that all the men who wrote the books of the bible had the holy spirit in them. An example of what I mean can be easily glimpsed in the book of Proverbs, and the book of Ecclesiastes. Some of the proverbs/advice, upon close examination, are found to have no truth in them, but they made their way into the book anyway. Proverb 31 is a clear example of that which is not even of God. The entry is from a mother to her son, King Lemuel. That chapter reads like the worst advice any mother who really loves her son will ever give. But what do you expect from a woman who was married to a man with over 700 wives and 300 concubines?

That said, to understand the Bible, you do not need to BELIEVE THE ENTIRE Book, because what you are told is true is the word of God(Jesus Christ in the new testament), not the book that contains itself.
It is simple logic really...
* God is true...
* Jesus is Truth,
* the Spirit of God is the Spirit of Truth.
But the Bible is not Jesus so.... you can fill in the blank

delkuf:
No you are wrong. If you don't believe everything in the Bible, you don't believe in it at all. Now if someone says he believes in the ten commandments, but he don't believe that the Lord Jesus Christ died and rose from the dead on the third day, what will you tell that individual.

Where do you get this rule from, this applies to the quran and not the bible.
The bible is not one book, the new testament was canonized for the church 300 years after jesus christ. I believe in many messages of the Didache for instance than I believe in Revelation, because I do not understand a lot of what is written in the book of Revelation. It is not necessarily about believing the ten commandments or believing in jesus, it's about understanding the truth and principles in both the ten commandments and jesus.

Daejoyoung:

ok I don't believe that a donkey spoke, or that all miracles in the bible happened the way they were described. I don't believe in the story of Noah's ark and how he housed all those species of animals. I have tried, but I find all of these and many more hard to believe. But I am not an atheist, and I want to obey the teachings of jesus christ and be led by his spirit.

I don't know what you are. Maybe they should find a special name for you. Because if you don't believe in all the miracle of the Bible and you say you obey the Lord Jesus Christ and be led by the Spirit. Your own case na waooooo. Do you believe that the Lord Jesus Christ raise Lazarus from the dead. Do you believe that he opened the eyes of the blinds.

delkuf:
It is not a rule. It is the way it is. That is why many of you don't know the Bible. read the Bible with the mind set of believing what it says and you will understand it. So you cannot understand the Bible without believing in it

The bolded is a misconception Sir!

First of all let me tell you that what most people know as Christianity today was the system introduced by slave traders, that's not the way Jesus (the founder of Christianity) commissioned it!

You can't believe (trust) what you don't understand {Romans 10:14} someone needs to PREACH to you first, then you will ask thought provoking questions to be sure of what the one preaching is telling you, cross-check if it's true {Act 17:11} before you can subject yourself to become one of the students to be TAUGHT by the same preachers! Matthew 28:20

The one and only organization practicing Christianity according to the way the first century Christians were organized today are Jehovah's Witnesses, that's why you'll notice that they're vilified everywhere just as Jesus foretold that his followers will be treated with contempt amongst the nations! Matthew 5:11-12, 10:22-25; John 17:14-17

All these religions claiming Christians are FAKE, that's why they're propagating what is not logical. You can't believe (trust) in what you don't understand!

Daejoyoung:

Where do you get this rule from, this applies to the quran and not the bible.
The bible is not one book, the new testament was canonized for the church 300 years after jesus christ. I believe in many messages of the Didache for instance than I believe in Revelation, because I do not understand a lot of what is written in the book of Revelation. It is not necessarily about believing the ten commandments or believing in jesus, it's about understanding the truth and principles in both the ten commandments and jesus.

Please answer my question. what will you tell that individual

Kobojunkie:


There is only one Spirit of Inspiration, and every work on this earth was inspired by that one Spirit of Inspiration. Your Bible happens to be just one of all those works inspired by the same spirit. So do not be deceived into thinking the book is the only book that contains knowledge that belongs to God.
We have no clear evidence that all the men who wrote the books of the bible had the holy spirit in them. An example of what I mean can be easily glimpsed in the book of Proverbs, and the book of Ecclesiastes. Some of the proverbs/advice, upon close examination, are found to have no truth in them, but they made their way into the book anyway. Proverb 31 is a clear example of that which is not even of God. The entry is from a mother to her son, King Lemuel. That chapter reads like the worst advice any mother who really loves her son will ever give. But what do you expect from a woman who was married to a man with over 700 wives and 300 concubines?

That said, to understand the Bible, you do not need to BELIEVE THE ENTIRE Book, because what you are told is true is the word of God(Jesus Christ in the new testament), not the book that contains itself.
It is simple logic really...
* God is true...
* Jesus is Truth,
* the Spirit of God is the Spirit of Truth.
But the Bible is not Jesus so.... you can fill in the blank

Right now am a little busy, so I cannot write much. But I have one question for you, what does it mean to be inspired by God

delkuf:
Right now am a little busy, so I cannot write much. But I have one question for you, what does it mean to be inspired by God

Every knowledge of good and evil on this planet belongs to God. No book or thought comes out of us without God first having knowledge of it, and permitting it. Only by His permission can anything and everything happen. Nothing can happen (good or evil) without His consent, in other words, He inspires it all.
Even the account of King Lemuel's mother in Proverb 31 was inspired by God. It doesn't mean that the account is true or accurate, it just means that God permitted it to be written so.

delkuf:
Please answer my question. what will you tell that individual

I would tell the individual to seek to understand jesus more and perhaps he would come to the knowledge of christ in addition to that of the ten commandments, but I can only tell him/her this, not necessarily because I just believed in jesus but because I myself also have come to the knowledge of christ and I am growing in that knowledge.

Maximus69:


The bolded is a misconception Sir!

First of all let me tell you that what most people know as Christianity today was the system introduced by slave traders, that's not the way Jesus (the founder of Christianity) commissioned it!

You can't believe (trust) what you don't understand {Romans 10:14} someone needs to PREACH to you first, then you will ask thought provoking questions to be sure of what the one preaching is telling you, cross-check if it's true {Act 17:11} before you can subject yourself to become one of the students to be TAUGHT by the same preachers! Matthew 28:20

The one and only organization practicing Christianity according to the way the first century Christians were organized today are Jehovah's Witnesses, that's why you'll notice that they're vilified everywhere just as Jesus foretold that his followers will be treated with contempt amongst the nations! Matthew 5:11-12, 10:22-25; John 17:14-17

All these religions claiming Christians are FAKE, that's why they're propagating what is not logical. You can't believe (trust) in what you don't understand!

After someone preach to you like you said. after asking your thoughts provoking questions, what do you now do. you come to terms with what the person told you. you believe in it. so you cannot understand the Bible without believing in it.


And please I am a Christian and I am not a product of a system introduce by slave trade. Christianity started in the Bible. they saw them behaving like Christ, and they called them Christian.

Daejoyoung:

I would tell the individual to seek to understand jesus more and perhaps he would come to the knowledge of christ in addition to that of the ten commandments, but I can only tell him/her this, not necessarily because I just believed in jesus but because I myself also have come to the knowledge of christ and I am growing in that knowledge.

Can that person seek to understand the Lord Jesus Christ more without believing in what the Lord Jesus Christ did. Can that person understand the Lord Jesus Christ more without believing that he died and on the third day he rose from the dead. can he understand without him believing that the Lord Jesus Christ heal the blinds and raise the dead. you guys are missing the most important thing and trying to use logic to read the Bible. it cannot work like that. if I want obey some body, I will believe in what that person say and do.

delkuf:
I don't know what you are. Maybe they should find a special name for you. Because if you don't believe in all the miracle of the Bible and you say you obey the Lord Jesus Christ and be led by the Spirit. Your own case na waooooo. Do you believe that the Lord Jesus Christ raise Lazarus from the dead. Do you believe that he opened the eyes of the blinds.

When Jesus walked the earth he came to establish what God promised in the Bible:-

©The dead will come back to life.
©The lame will walk.
©There will be abundant food.
©The deaf, dumb and blind will be healed.
©There will be no sickness.
©All forces of nature will be regulated.
©Evildoers will be no more.
©People won't need to wait for answers to their prayers because God will grant it fast.

All these are the things foretold will become a reality when God's kingdom (government) is established globally.

So when Jesus appeared to the Jews (the nation God revealed all these things to) he need to prove it to them that all these will be possible, that's why he performed so many miraculous works in their midst.

Now the assignment God had for the Jews is to go and tell other nations about God's promised, of course all the nations around the Mediterranean Sea back then have heard about the invincibility of the Jewish God, so there is can't be doubts regarding his ability to do these things. But the Jews were demanding their immediate freedom from Roman oppression, while Jesus kept telling them that's not necessary!

So they rejected God's arrangement and killed Jesus, they also wanted to silence all his followers. Their intention is that God will be forced to change that unpalatable arrangement for them since they're Abraham's offsprings. But unknowingly to them, they fulfilled part of the prophecies that the Messiah will become the sacrifice for sin. However few ones amongst them grasped the concept and that's why you and i are reading about Jesus today!

All those miracles was targeted at helping the Jews to build strong faith in the promises of their God and go out to other nations to preach and teach them what God is planning.

Jesus foretold that Satan will confuse his group later but during the end time angels will be sent from heaven to gather faithful people into one single group in other to continue the preaching and teaching work again, he also foretold that during a time when people globally are finding it so difficult to relate peacefully due to Racism and Politics, his own followers will squatch Racism and Politics completely in their midst and everyone throughout the earth will notice the LOVE, JOY and PEACE permeating their midst!

So you don't need to believe the miracles in the Bible since you're not seeing it, but what about the one that's happening today? Jesus said the LOVE permeating the gathering of his followers will be the only sign God will give us {John 13:34-35} therefore forget about the ones written in the Bible, it's not the signs given to your own generation! Matthew 12:39

God bless you!