after reading a lot here, i am curious to know what people's views are on this issue.

remember people, if you do not agree with someone's view, simply say so. it is not an attack on you or your beliefs. freedom of speech and respect for all concerned!

so come on people, let us chat about this!

that depends on the person that has just passed on, could be the region of ligt or the region of darkness and damnation.

Our spirit returns to God. Our bodies go to the grave to await the resurrection.

Drusilla:

Our spirit returns to God. Our bodies go to the grave to await the resurrection.

so you mean the dust in the grave will ressurect? please enlighten me.

Aproko:

so you mean the dust in the grave will ressurect? please enlighten me.

Eze 37:1 The hand of Jehovah was on me, and brought me by the Spirit of Jehovah, and made me rest in the midst of a valley, and it was full of bones.
Eze 37:2 And He made me pass among them all around. And behold, very many were on the face of the valley. And lo, they were very dry.
Eze 37:3 And he said to me, Son of man, can these bones live? And I answered, O Lord Jehovah, You know.
Eze 37:4 Again He said to me, Prophesy to these bones, and say to them, O dry bones, hear the Word of Jehovah.
Eze 37:5 So says the Lord Jehovah to these bones: Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and you shall live.
Eze 37:6 And I will lay sinews on you, and will bring up flesh on you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and you shall live. And you shall know that I am Jehovah.
Eze 37:7 So I prophesied as I was commanded. And as I prophesied, there was a noise. And behold, a shaking! And the bones came near, a bone to its bone.
Eze 37:8 And I watched. And behold! The sinews and the flesh came up on them, and the skin covered them above. But there was no breath in them.
Eze 37:9 And He said to me, Prophesy to the Spirit, prophesy, son of man, and say to the Spirit, So says the Lord Jehovah: Come from the four winds, O Spirit, and breathe on these dead ones so that they may live.
Eze 37:10 So I prophesied as He commanded me, and the Spirit came into them, and they lived and stood on their feet, an exceedingly great army.
Eze 37:11 And He said to me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel. Behold, they say, Our bones are dried and our hope is lost; we are cut off by ourselves.
Eze 37:12 Therefore prophesy and say to them, So says the Lord Jehovah: Behold, O My people, I will open your graves and cause you to come up out of your graves, and will bring you into the land of Israel.
Eze 37:13 And you shall know that I am Jehovah when I have opened your graves, O My people, and have brought you up out of your graves.
Eze 37:14 And I shall put My Spirit in you, and you shall live, and I will place you in your own land. And you shall know that I Jehovah have spoken and have done it, says Jehovah.

keep em coming people

body to dust, spirit to god, etc

drusilla,

does it mean we become two when we pass on? i.e. one of us (our spirit) goes to be with God, and the other (our dust and dry bones which is about to arise) waits for judgment?

if yes, does it mean nobody goes to hell? or what if the part of us that is awaiting judgment fails the judgment test meanwhile the other part is with God already so what happens?

does it mean we become two when we pass on? i.e. one of us (our spirit) goes to be with God, and the other (our dust and dry bones which is about to arise) waits for judgment?

if yes, does it mean nobody goes to hell? or what if the part of us that is awaiting judgment fails the judgment test meanwhile the other part is with God already so what happens?

valid questions!

Like Drusilla I believe, based on the clear biblical teaching, that when one dies his or her spirit goes back to God, while the body returns as dust in the ground.

"Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it." Ecclesiastes 12:7.

Aproko:

drusilla,

does it mean we become two when we pass on? i.e. one of us (our spirit) goes to be with God, and the other (our dust and dry bones which is about to arise) waits for judgment?

if yes, does it mean nobody goes to hell? or what if the part of us that is awaiting judgment fails the judgment test meanwhile the other part is with God already so what happens?

Aproko,

I think man is a triad now, right? Body, soul, spirit. So it's just a matter of a separation when we die. Death wouldn't be "when" we become 2 (or 3), it would just be when it is separated. God is able to separate soul from Spirit.

I think that indeed our flesh (body) and soul (mind) await judgement. Or that is to say, the outer court and inner court await judgement because the Holy of Holies is where God abides alone. He does not get judged.

Everybody goes to the grave, nobody goes to hell until the resurrection/judgement.

And again, the Spirit belongs to God and returns to God and does not experience judgement. God is not judged.

@Drusilla,

Drusilla:

And again, the Spirit belongs to God and returns to God and does not experience judgement. God is not judged.

On Judgement Day, a wicked person - spirit, soul, and body - will be judged and cast into the lake of fire.

Believers are also triad - spirit, soul and body - and they cannot stand before God with any part less. If believers will be judged by any measure, their spirits will be involved as well their souls and bodies.

@ Drusilla

I agree with you to a point, but I am not too keen on this triad idea. Let me explain. The word soul is really an expression that explains the union of body and spirit, and as you already know spirit means life force. When a person ceases to exist as you're aware, his body returns to the ground, and his "life force" returns to God.

The question that now begs to be asked, what has happened to the soul? Well, it simply doesn't exist anymore. Once there is no union of body and life force, there can be no soul. The original hebrew word nephesh denotes a being, or person. Its a word that was used by Moses to explain what happened to Adam when God blew the life force in him. The bible simply says:

", and man became a living soul" Genesis 2:7 Now the tendency is for people to confuse the meaning of soul and spirit. They are not the same thing. There are some persons who believe in the immortal soul, and believe that when a person dies, their souls wonder somewhere.

The other issue is the judgement. The apostle paul says that everyone will appear before the judgement seat of Christ, but he didn't specify when.

Have you ever really stopped to think as to what point will God judge everyone, including the believers? At what point will God judge the believers, assuming that if the believers remain true to God they would have all gone to heaven. If God doesn't judge the believers at some point before Christ returns, then when will the believers be judged? In heaven? Would it make sense for God to judge the redeemed when they reach heaven? What would be the point? Would't be logical and truthful to think that before anyone can live in the presence of a Holy God they would have to be proven worthy in the judgement?

Listen to what Jesus said: Revelation 22:12 “And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work.

If Christ is coming back the 2nd time to give every man a reward or verdict, based on their works, wouldn't it be fair to think that a judgement can only precede a verdict? Just like any court case. There has to be a trial and evidence must be brought forward, and then after the evidence has been looked at carefully, then a verdict will be announced.

That is why the bible teaches that God's judgement has already started. In Revelation 14:6 in symbolical landuage John announced that "the hour of His judgement is(has) come" Notice that it would come during the preaching of the everlasting gospel to every nation, tribe, and tongue.

Jesus also said in matthew 24 that the end would come when the preaching of the gospel becomes a witness to all nations. It really makes sense to believe that God is using the judgement to determine who is worthy or not for eternal life. It is that judgement that will determine whether or not our names are blooted out of the book of life, and that is why Jesus now stands as our advocate or defender in heaven, interceeding on our behalf.

Soon all cases will be decided, and when its over John says, Revelation 22:11, "He who is unjust, let him be unjust still; he who is filthy, let him be filthy still; he who is righteous, let him be righteous still; he who is holy, let him be holy still.”

Bobbyaf:

When a person ceases to exist as you're aware, his body returns to the ground, and his "life force" returns to God.

The question that now begs to be asked, what has happened to the soul? Well, it simply doesn't exist anymore. Once there is no union of body and life force, there can be no soul.

Revelation 6:9 - "And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held."

Believers are also triad - spirit, soul and body

okay, is the above view based on the Godly trinity in the first place? as in do we have the same tri-makeup simply because god is the same?

just a question

Bara-kade,

What about the idea that "no flesh can enter the kingdom of God", we must be changed into what Christ is, corruptible must put on incorruptible.

I'm not sure that our flesh body must stand before God.

thesilent1,

1Th 5:23 And may the God of peace Himself sanctify you, and may your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blamelessly at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

I think it is scriptures where we get the idea of a triad being.

@ Barikade

Revelation 6:9 - "And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held."

This doesn't prove that the soul isn't an expression used to describe the whole being of man. I am not certain as to why the word soul would be used in this way, but here is my take on it. If we are going to view the word soul as existing inside a body, then why would John not logically state that it was the bodies that were slain and not an entity within a body? Wouldn't it be easier to view it as the whole person being slain?

When the prophet Ezekiel said "the soul that sinneth shall die" was he stressing the internal entity of a person or was he addressing the whole person dying?

I'd rather go with the weight of evidence of what the word soul generally denotes, versus expressions I can't fully understand now, or profess to understand, but I am sure there has to be some grammatical explanation.

The question that now begs to be asked, what has happened to the soul? Well, it simply doesn't exist anymore. Once there is no union of body and life force, there can be no soul.

Bobbyaf,

The soul however can be as Ezekiel shows resurrected. i.e. life brought back into the body brings back the soul, right?

Exactly Dru!

The soul only exists when both body and life force combine, and of course when Christ returns He will give us new bodies that will be fitted with the life force he will place in them.

Cheers!

When we die, we go to inexistence.

@ bobbyaf,

i agree with you on two points. one the soul and the spirit are not the same!! the human being has a spirit and not a soul. the word soul was coined by man probably for easier understanding (but that is not the case as it has obviously led to more confusion).

at physical death, the human spirit drops the flesh which is only a cloak that enables man wonder through the earth. the law of gravity then sets in, thus the spirit, depending on his life on earth was led, can either gravitate towards the region of light and paradise, or towards the realm of darkness and damnation. what heppens in those realms is a topic on its own.

your second point is that the judgment has already begun. it has begun all right. 'all that is dead within you shall arise so that it may pass judgment on itself' - all that is dead within you not all the dead cos believe me, those that have died before jesus was on earth are plenty and those bones have gone beyond the point of isaiah's prophecy, they will not rise again

translating the bible from the original hebrew to english has its obvious problems cos when the right words cannot be found, a synonym is used just to pass on the idea. but you will agree with me that the synonym for a word and that particular word may not necessarily have the same meaning, hence this debate and many more to come.

p.s - all the emphasis here are mine.

@Drusilla,

Drusilla:

Bara-kade,

What about the idea that "no flesh can enter the kingdom of God", we must be changed into what Christ is, corruptible must put on incorruptible.

I'm not sure that our flesh body must stand before God.

Glad you asked. Here:

I Corinthians 15:

"But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?" - vs. 35

"It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body." - vs. 44

"the dead shall be raised incorruptible" - vs. 52.

@Bobbyaf,

Bobbyaf:

@ Barikade

This doesn't prove that the soul isn't an expression used to describe the whole being of man. I am not certain as to why the word soul would be used in this way, but here is my take on it.

If you would only go through the Biblical use of the word soul, you will see why the Bible does not confuse it at any instance in their various connotations. The soul is distinct from the spirit of man; and it is not something that could be narrowed to a particular idea (such as mind) in the bigger context.

"For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. " - Heb. 4:12.

It is not a mere question of dividing between the "mind" and "life force" - for the Bible explicates these two quite distinctly.

As for Revelation 6:9, if the soul simply ceases to exist beyond death, then the Bible would not have made reference to quite the opposite of your idea.

Drusilla:

Bobbyaf,

The soul however can be as Ezekiel shows resurrected. i.e. life brought back into the body brings back the soul, right?

A non-existent soul cannot be re-arranged to excuse the idea that Bobbyaf puts across to you. He calls it the "mind" - and I only want to know this: does Ezekiel say that the "mind" is borught back to life?

I think we should be open to the whole picture of whatever the Bible teaches, instead of trying to narrow issues to fit any idea that comes to men's fallible minds.

bari_kade:

@Drusilla,

Glad you asked. Here:

I Corinthians 15:

"But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?" - vs. 35

"It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body." - vs. 44

"the dead shall be raised incorruptible" - vs. 52.

Spiritual body is like the exact opposite of a "flesh body" right?

@Drusilla,

Drusilla:

Spiritual body is like the exact opposite of a "flesh body" right?

Perhaps, I'd agree with you that you have a point; but it all depends on what we mean by the terms flesh and body. I'm persuaded at this time that we shall stand in our bodies in the presence of the Lord at the Resurrection.

I remember Job said: "And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God" (Job 19:26) - which again would point to how we shall appear on the Day of the Resurrection.

What this would then mean in NT language is what the apostle Paul expounded upon in Phil. 3:21, when speaking of what the Lord Jesus would grant to believers in that Day:

         (21)  Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body,
                 according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

When Jesus rose from the dead, He spoke in terms of what He possessed even in His resurrection:

         Luke 24:39 -- "Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself:
                               handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and
                               bones, as ye see me have."

We know that the NT speaks of the Lord's resurrected body in terms of a glorified body. What exactly this means, my small knowledge is unable to fully expound - for it was the apostle John who made this remarkable statement:

        1 John 3:2 -- "Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth
                              not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that,
                              when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we
                              shall see him as he is.

Blessings.

It is appojnted unto man once to die and after this the judgment.

The bible has clearly made us to understand that HEAVEN IS REAL and HELL IS REAL.
When we die we await the judgment of GOD our creator. We are going to give record of how we spent or lived our life here on earth.

"For we shall not all die but we which are remained shall be changed and caught up to meet the LORD in the air. The DEAD in CHRIST shall rise first, those who died in Christ, who died as believers, who believe that there is a GOD in heaven will rise first when the LORD will come to meet his people. When we die it is the soul to that goes to meet GOD, this does not mean that the person has gone to rest cause he/she will have to face judgment as it is clearly stated that after death is judgment.

@ Bari_kade

If you would only go through the Biblical use of the word soul, you will see why the Bible does not confuse it at any instance in their various connotations. The soul is distinct from the spirit of man; and it is not something that could be narrowed to a particular idea (such as mind) in the bigger context.

I will agree with you that the soul is distinct from the spirit of man, but it is not an entity within an entity, and that is the point I have been trying to make from day one. Its simply an expression to describe life and the being or personage of man, or beast.

The expression "there goes a precioius soul" is never used to describe an internal entity, but rather the whole person with all his faculties intact, including mind and body.

I am aware that the word soul has been seen in passages that make it appear different in meaning to what it was intended to mean initially, and so I am not sure why that is the case.

@Bobbyaf,

Bobbyaf:

I will agree with you that the soul is distinct from the spirit of man, but it is not an entity within an entity, and that is the point I have been trying to make from day one. Its simply an expression to describe life and the being or personage of man, or beast.

Partly true; but more than that, the soul is as distinct as the spirit is from the body.

'Soul' is sometimes used to denote the person in particular; other times as denoting the rational part of man; and yet at other times to distinguish that part of man that tends more to the animate; while yet a few times it points to the ethereal part of man where his faculties (mind, will, etc) are found.

The spirit, on the other hand, is the innermost part of man where he is able to have fellowship with God. John 4:24 - "God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth."

Once we get to see the bigger picture between these distinctions, it becomes easier to see why the soul is used in some instances where, as you said, its meaning might not have been so clear.

we go[b] HOME[/b] ile labo simi oko.

for those who don't know that the soul is a distinct entity just as the spirit and the body are distinct entities, grab a copy of "The Spiritual Man" (three volumes) by Watchman Nee. YOu'd get a very good grasp of those realities and concepts.
"And may God Himself who gives peace, make you entirely holy; and may your spirits, souls and bodies be preserved complete and be found blameless at the Coming of our Lord Jesus Christ." I Thess. 5;23
Cheers.

@ricadelide,

Good recommendation. Bless.