I think alter call has no relationship with salvation. salvation is something that happens in the heart and raising of hands and moving out to the alter during a crusade has nothing to do with it. in fact, it discourages some people because they are used to alter call and yet, no evidence of salvation in their lives. I also think there is no injunction to that in the bible so, why indoctrinating it.

lonikit:
I think alter call has no relationship with salvation. salvation is something that happens in the heart and raising of hands and moving out to the alter during a crusade has nothing to do with it. in fact, it discourages some people because they are used to alter call and yet, no evidence of salvation in their lives. I also think there is no injunction to that in the bible so, why indoctrinating it.

Having thought about it, why do you not stand on it?

Dtruthspeaker:

Having thought about it, why do you not stand on it?

just shared my thought, i may/may not be right. i can still learn from others' opinion

lonikit:

just shared my thought, i may/may not be right.
i can still learn from others' opinion

Are you right?

Alter call is d first step. That public declaration in front of God and d many witnesses show that u truly want this
Now it's up to u and also the role of your church to make sure u are taught in detail what u need to sustain and grow ur new found faith
Water baptism is d seal as well

It is a function of individual perception.

lonikit:
I think alter call has no relationship with salvation. salvation is something that happens in the heart and raising of hands and moving out to the alter during a crusade has nothing to do with it. in fact, it discourages some people because they are used to alter call and yet, no evidence of salvation in their lives. I also think there is no injunction to that in the bible so, why indoctrinating it.

The very term 'altar' ought to be questioned here. Whose altar? Definitely, Jesus Christ never called anyone to set up, let alone step before any altars for His sake, so how could some sort of call to an arbitrary 'altar' have anything to do with Jesus Christ in anyway?

No, at all neither is baptism needed to be saved

livingchrist:
No, at all neither is baptism needed to be saved

I disagree! I think it is better to be baptized than not to be at all. I myself was baptized by pastors who I believed then and now as liars/charlattans who come in the name of God.
I did it because Jesus Christ Himself was baptized, not because of any assumed trust in the hand that carried out the baptism

HRHQueenPhil:
Alter call is d first step. That public declaration in front of God and d many witnesses show that u truly want this
Now it's up to u and also the role of your church to make sure u are taught in detail what u need to sustain and grow ur new found faith
Water baptism is d seal as well

how does public declaration affect salvation

HRHQueenPhil:
Alter call is d first step. That public declaration in front of God and d many witnesses show that u truly want this
Now it's up to u and also the role of your church to make sure u are taught in detail what u need to sustain and grow ur new found faith
Water baptism is d seal as well

Public declaration in front of a God who rebukes those who pray to Him in public, commanding instead that His followers go into their closets when they pray to Him? Are you calling God a hypocrite? \

Jesus Christ never called for a "public declaration" of one's faith in God... He never asked you to see 'witnesses' as far a your declaration or relationship with Him and God. So, I think you have the wrong God when you say such things.

What baptism is not a seal.... NOT as far as Jesus Christ is concerned. That doctrine and belief is not according to Jesus Christ, and I suggest you throw in the trash all the doctrines you have there that are not in line with Truth as far as Jesus CHrist is concerned, so you can see where the lies end and the truth begin.

Kobojunkie:
I disagree! I think it is better to be baptized than not to be at all. I myself was baptized by pastors who I believed then and now as liars/charlattans who come in the name of God.
I did it because Jesus Christ Himself was baptized, not because of any assumed trust in the hand that carried out the baptism

Yes, water baptism should be done but, it is not a requirement for salvation.

lonikit:
I think alter call has no relationship with salvation. salvation is something that happens in the heart and raising of hands and moving out to the alter during a crusade has nothing to do with it. in fact, it discourages some people because they are used to alter call and yet, no evidence of salvation in their lives. I also think there is no injunction to that in the bible so, why indoctrinating it.

Alter calls has definitely led to the salvation of a few genuine souls no doubt, however I think it is unwise and erroneous to observe it as an indicator for amount of souls saved as many do because it can be very deceptive. So I very well understand where you're coming from.

I had a friend who came out for alter call just to get closer to the girl he wanted to date in the choir and sitting in the alter of the church.

I had been out for several alter calls myself, but the day I decided to repent and begin to follow God's way, I didn't come out but it was sealed in heaven because it was genuine. That illustrates how deceptive it could be if used as an indicator of saved souls.

That's why i'm not a fan of alter calls, that's to call people to come or give them decision cards, but to call them to repentance, so that if they truly do, their actions would confirm it.

I don't want to be rejoicing here on Earth while heaven is silent or vice versa because I always as much as possible want to be in sync with what was going on in heaven and not in disagreement.

I can only rejoice that someone has repented when the person life confirms that a change has really occurred in it, or God reveals such to me as in the instance of Paul formerly known as Saul.

God bless.

livingchrist:
Yes, water baptism should be done but, it is not a requirement for salvation.

According to whom? Jesus Christ, or your Pastors?

Jesus Christ was baptized before He started off. That ought to be the end of any debate on this subject since we are called to live as Jesus Christ did. Jesus Christ Himself did not preach a single sermon on baptism or on whether or not it was required or salvation or not, so any claim on either side is false i.e. If it was not taught by Jesus Christ it is not and will never be true.

What do we know of the subject? Again, all we know is that Jesus Christ, our one and only teacher, did it, and so we should as FOLLOWERS of Jesus Christ, seek to live as He did, and following His example is all that should matter in this.

lonikit:
I think alter call has no relationship with salvation. salvation is something that happens in the heart and raising of hands and moving out to the alter during a crusade has nothing to do with it. in fact, it discourages some people because they are used to alter call and yet, no evidence of salvation in their lives. I also think there is no injunction to that in the bible so, why indoctrinating it.

there is also no injunction in the bible to call a Christian to the alter for salvation.
Muslims should be called not Christians who are already saved

paxonel:
there is also no injunction in the bible to call a Christian to the alter for salvation.
Muslims should be called not Christians who are already saved

Salvation according to whom though? Jesus Christ came and preached to those who already claimed to know of God, and not to those who did not believe at all in God. So, where does your idea of Salvation come from?

Kobojunkie:
Salvation according to whom though? Jesus Christ came and preached to those who already claimed to know of God, and not to those who did not believe at all in God. So, where does your idea of Salvation come from?

you are not getting it!
Jesus Christ came to preach to the Jews who practiced Judaism so that they will join Christianity and be saved.
Salvation is through faith

paxonel:
you are not getting it! Jesus Christ came to preach to the Jews who practiced Judaism so that they will join Christianity and be saved.
Salvation is through faith

What? Jesus Christ came down to preach to the Jews to save them from Judaism? What? The same Jesus Christ who admitted just before the end that He did not lose any of the ones God in fact gave Him, except for Judas, came to preach to all the Jews to save them? Are you sure of what you are saying? Or are you simply repeating what you have been told without doing your own due diligence in verifying the stories you were told?

Kobojunkie:
What? Jesus Christ came down to preach to the Jews to save them from Judaism? What? The same Jesus Christ who admitted just before the end that He did not lose any of the ones God in fact gave Him, except for Judas, came to preach to all the Jews to save them? Are you sure of what you are saying? Or are you simply repeating what you have been told without doing your own due diligence in verifying the stories you were told?

you want to know whether I'm sure, thats your hope that I'm wrong

These are the things you should consider :
1. Before Jesus came, all these disciples you are talking about were all Jews, that means their original religion was Judaism, that was their faith.
2. When Jesus came he told them, have faith in me : meaning, their faith changed the moment they believed. These same disciples were the first apostles of Christianity later after Jesus had ascended, that was the origin of Christianity.

So, we are saved by our faith and that faith is Christianity

You Christians you don't think at all, i nor know where una put una brain

paxonel:
you want to know whether I'm sure, thats your hope that I'm wrong

These are the things you should consider :
1. Before Jesus came, all these disciples you are talking about were all Jews, that means their original religion was Judaism, that was their faith.
2. When Jesus came he told them, have faith in me : meaning, their faith changed the moment they believed. These same disciples were the first apostles of Christianity later after Jesus had ascended, that was the origin of Christianity.

So, we are saved by our faith and that faith is Christianity

But the same Judaism you claim they were "saved" from is still sanctioned by God even to this day and forever will be. So how can one claim that Jesus Christ came to save them from Judaism? And Why did He only save a handful, about 11, according to Him, if He was really intent on "saving them from Judaism"?

Heck, one could even say that Jesus Christ 'discouraged' many more from converting to follow Him than He did encourage them to convert and follow Him. I mean how do you win hearts when rather than speaking in plain text to them to convince them of your truth, you choose to speak in parables to them so they would not understand you clearly and hence turn to follow you? That is what Jesus Christ did. If His plan was indeed to get the Jews to turn to Him, He did a lot to sabotage there conversation in many ways.

Kobojunkie:
But the same Judaism you claim they were "saved" from

read my lips, i did not say they were saved from Judaism, I say God associated with Judaism only at the time it lasted because of the covenant he had with Abraham.

is still sanctioned by God even to this day and forever will be. So how can one claim that Jesus Christ came to save them from Judaism?

the word sanction is not the right one to use as God is not sanctioning anyone for deciding to practice the religion of his choice.
Everyone have the right to choose whatever religion, it's a free world.

But John 3:36 says He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

That isn't sanction, it's only telling you that the unbeliever will not have life after his death.
And while he is yet alive no one is sanctioning him for believing in order religion

And Why did He only save a handful, about 11, according to Him, if He was really intent on "saving them from Judaism"?

you mean he should have only one disciple saved if he had intended to save them from Judaism?
I'm not getting you

Heck, one could even say that Jesus Christ 'discouraged' many more from converting to follow Him than He did encourage them to convert and follow Him. I mean how do you win hearts when rather than speaking in plain text to them to convince them of your truth, you choose to speak in parables to them so they would not understand you clearly and hence turn to follow you? That is what Jesus Christ did. If His plan was indeed to get the Jews to turn to Him, He did a lot to sabotage there conversation in many ways.

like i said, to follow Jesus Christ and become his disciple was a matter of self-will. He didn't force anyone to be his disciple, rather he spoke the truth and they were convinced to become his disciple.
Now, there were the Pharisees among the Jews. Unlike the disciples, the Pharisees never had the self-will to believe Jesus even if he had spoken to them in clear terms order than parables.
Parables or no parables they will never believe, so what is the need using plan terms?

paxonel:
read my lips, i did not say they were saved from Judaism, I say God associated with Judaism only at the time it lasted because of the covenant he had with Abraham.

God associated with Judaism only at the time it lasted? Again, that is not true!

paxonel:
the word sanction is not the right one to use as God is not sanctioning anyone for deciding to practice the religion of his choice.
Everyone have the right to choose whatever religion, it's a free world.

The promise God made to Abraham is still in effect to this day meaning what you refer to as Judaism, and I like to call the Old Covenant is still in full operation to this day, and will be forever because that is the deal God made.

Genesis 17 vs 3-8 (ERV)
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3. Then Abram bowed down before God. God said to him,
4. “This is my part of our agreement: I will make you the father of many nations.
5. I will change your name from Abram[b] to Abraham,[c] because I am making you the father of many nations.
6. I will give you many descendants. New nations and kings will come from you.
7. And I will prepare an agreement between me and you. This agreement will also be for all your descendants. It will continue forever. I will be your God and the God of all your descendants.
8. And I will give this land to you and to all your descendants. I will give you the land you are traveling through—the land of Canaan. I will give you this land forever, and I will be your God.”

Note the promise is meant to last forever, so, the reason why even when Jesus Christ came, He made it clear that He did not come to put an end to the Old Covenant or what you call Judaism, but instead to offer a new Covenant (complete with new Yoke, Promises, Blessings, Stipulations, Burden) for those who will choose it. Technically, for those God had chosen for it.

paxonel:
But John 3:36 says He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
That isn't sanction, it's only telling you that the unbeliever will not have life after his death.
And while he is yet alive no one is sanctioning him for believing in order religion

When I used the word sanction, I meant to apply it's other meaning

sanc·tion
/ˈsaNG(k)SH(ə)n/
1.give official permission or approval for (an action).

"only two treatments have been sanctioned by the Food and Drug Administration"

paxonel:
Now, there were the Pharisees among the Jews. Unlike the disciples, the Pharisees never had the self-will to believe Jesus even if he had spoken to them in clear terms order than parables.
Parables or no parables they will never believe, so what is the need using plan terms?

I beg to differ!! If "Saving them all" was the point of what Jesus Christ came for, then yes, He would have at least made sure they had the same chance, but He, Jesus Christ, did not give them all the same chance that He did His disciples. One might ask what the end result of that would have been? It means the Pharisees who did not believe in Jesus Christ, did not receive eternal life and so perished/ceased to exist once they died like the rest of the unbelievers out there continue to.

lonikit:
I think alter call has no relationship with salvation. salvation is something that happens in the heart and raising of hands and moving out to the alter during a crusade has nothing to do with it. in fact, it discourages some people because they are used to alter call and yet, no evidence of salvation in their lives. I also think there is no injunction to that in the bible so, why indoctrinating it.

I think it has a great significance cos it means you have officially renounce the devil and accepted Christ before two or three witnesses. More like openly shaming the devil and proclaiming Christ as your Lord and savior.

When you say no evidence in someone who openly accepted Christ, you're wrong because while savation is instant, the change you expect to see takes a while which requires sanctification, a gradual process which works on the persons' character to change them overtime. So that you don't see an instant change doesn't mean they are not saved.

Shalom.

Kobojunkie:
God associated with Judaism only at the time it lasted? Again, that is not true!

Matthew 3:10 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

literally, the trees in this parable refers to covenants in the past between God and man which includes that between God and Abraham.
As God was about to set up a new covenant through Christ, all these other covenants which includes that of Abraham were cut down making them null and void.
So choose one!
Do you belong to Christ or you belong to Abraham?

The Jews challenged Jesus
John 8:53 Art thou greater than our father Abraham, which is dead? ...
But Jesus responded
John 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

So, Jesus is the way the truth and the life, not Abraham or Muhammed or any other prophet

The promise God made to Abraham is still in effect to this day

and that promise has been fulfilled in Christ, where is then the place of Abraham?

meaning what you refer to as Judaism, and I like to call the Old Covenant is still in full operation to this day, and will be forever because that is the deal God made.

that wasn't real.
Infact, it was the shadow of things to come.
And the thing to come was the new covenant through Christ. Hebrews 10:1

When I used the word sanction, I meant to apply it's other meaning

ok

I beg to differ!! If "Saving them all" was the point of what Jesus Christ came for, then yes, He would have at least made sure they had the same chance, but He, Jesus Christ, did not give them all the same chance that He did His disciples. One might ask what the end result of that would have been? It means the Pharisees who did not believe in Jesus Christ, did not receive eternal life and so perished/ceased to exist once they died like the rest of the unbelievers out there continue to.

exactly!
But there was equal chance for everyone to decide and the Pharisees had decided not to believe, there was nothing anyone could do.

lonikit:
I think alter call has no relationship with salvation. salvation is something that happens in the heart and raising of hands and moving out to the alter during a crusade has nothing to do with it. in fact, it discourages some people because they are used to alter call and yet, no evidence of salvation in their lives. I also think there is no injunction to that in the bible so, why indoctrinating it.

Altar call is a prayer of salvation.

paxonel:
Matthew 3:10 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
literally, the trees in this parable refers to covenants in the past between God and man which includes that between God and Abraham.
As God was about to set up a new covenant through Christ, all these other covenants which includes that of Abraham were cut down making them null and void.
So choose one!
Do you belong to Christ or you belong to Abraham?

I think you need to be careful the way you go about looking to inserting additional meaning where it does not exist. The verse in Matthew 3 vs 1o you quoted where the words of John the Baptist, and he was a follower of the Old Covenant, not Jesus Christ, the new Covenant. John was in no way referring to the Old Covenant. John the Baptist never discouraged people from following the Old Covenant, not even after his encounter with Jesus Christ.

Matthew 3 vs 4- (ERV)
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4. Now John wore a garment of camel's hair and a leather belt around his waist, and his food was locusts and wild honey.
5. Then Jerusalem and all Judea and all the region about the Jordan were going out to him,
6. and they were baptized by him in the river Jordan, confessing their sins.
7. But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said to them, “You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
8. Bear fruit in keeping with repentance.
9. And do not presume to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father,’ for I tell you, God is able from these stones to raise up children for Abraham.
10. Even now the axe is laid to the root of the trees. Every tree therefore that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
11. “I baptize you with water for repentance, but he who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.
12. His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will clear his threshing floor and gather his wheat into the barn, but the chaff he will burn with unquenchable fire.”

John never insinuated God was attempting to turn back on His word, or Change His mind. The Old Covenant is the same covenant that bore the Fruit called Jesus Christ. Was He not a good fruit hence? When Jesus Christ lived, even He lived His life in obedience to the Old Covenant, so how can the Old Covenant that God Himself, in His wisdom, set up, be considered a bad tree?
Again, I suggest caution as you look at these things. John the Baptist was speaking to the Pharisees, so it makes sense to assume that they were the trees He was referring to since Trees don't live forever, but Covenants are forever.

paxonel:
The Jews challenged Jesus
John 8:53 Art thou greater than our father Abraham, which is dead? ...
But Jesus responded
John 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

So, Jesus is the way the truth and the life, not Abraham or Muhammed or any other prophet
and that promise has been fulfilled in Christ, where is then the place of Abraham?

Where is the place of Abraham? I don't understand your question. Abraham was not even a prophet of God but a man who came to God, eventually becoming God's friend. So, why ask where his place is?

Jesus Christ is the Word out of God's own Mouth(Truth) who was made flesh and given t us to not only teach us but show us exactly what it is that God wants us to do in obedience of Him in other for us to quality as Sons of God. Why compare Him to anyone like Abraham or Mohammed to begin with?

Jesus Christ is God's human avatar...the embodiment of God's new Covenant, the eternal life promised to all those who accept Him, and the Only way to God. Why compare the promise that the New Covenant brings to the Old covenant promise which, as you should have read are two completely different promises and for two completely different sets of people.
Jesus Christ fulfilled the requirements of the Old Covenant on behalf of those who would choose to leave it and follow Him. Obviously, they could not simply walk out on the covenant without being damned by their acts, that is why Jesus Christ came and lived as He did to buy them from the Old Covenent so they could walk into the New Covenant without consequence.

We, the gentiles however, were never bound to the Old Covenant so we were and still are free to engage the New Covenant without consequence. Only consequence comes when we attempt to leave the New Covenant that we have chosen.

paxonel:
that wasn't real.
Infact, it was the shadow of things to come.
And the thing to come was the new covenant through Christ. Hebrews 10:1
ok
exactly!
But there was equal chance for everyone to decide and the Pharisees had decided not to believe, there was nothing anyone could do.

Shadow of what? Not according to God Himself and certainly not according to Jesus Christ, who even while He lived, encouraged people to continue to obey the Law, and live according to the ways that God had instructed them.

Alter calls are Biblical. However, no one becomes a mature believer by only responding to them.

Indeed, the Bible speaks about believing and Confessing the lordship of Jesus:

Romans 10:9-10
[9]That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
[10]For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

However, spiritual maturity comes from deliberate commitment to a real church, where you can learn God's word.

Ephesians 4:12-13
[12]For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
[13]Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

damosky12:
Alter calls are Biblical. However, no one becomes a mature believer by only responding to them.

Indeed, the Bible speaks about believing and Confessing the lordship of Jesus:

Romans 10:9-10
[9]That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
[10]For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

However, spiritual maturity comes from deliberate commitment to a real church, where you can learn God's word.

Ephesians 4:12-13
[12]For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
[13]Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

Nowhere in any of those verses you posted did even Paul call for a public confession of sins, and he certainly did not include a reference to an altar in any of what he suggested there. So keep searching for your biblical support for "Altar" calls.

Kobojunkie:
Nowhere in any of those verses you posted did even Paul call for a public confession of sins, and he certainly did not include a reference to an altar in any of what he suggested there. So keep searching for your biblical support for "Altar" calls.

Calm down. You don't need to be combative.

Forget about the term "alter call." It's a term that's only peculiar to our age. The idea, which is to get sinners affirm their belief in the gospel, is Biblical. The portion I cited supports BELIEVING and CONFESSING. That's what an alter call ascertains too.

We find similar instances with the early church.

Acts 19:18-19
[18]And many that believed came, and confessed, and shewed their deeds.
[19]Many of them also which used curious arts brought their books together, and burned them before all men: and they counted the price of them, and found it fifty thousand pieces of silver.

It is simply a call to salvation. This resonates throughout the history of the early church in Acts. No one can explain it away!

damosky12:
Calm down. You don't need to be combative.
Forget about the term "alter call." It's a term that's only peculiar to our age. The idea, which is to get sinners affirm their belief in the gospel, is Biblical. The portion I cited supports BELIEVING and CONFESSING. That's what an alter call ascertains too.

That idea itself is not according to what Jesus Christ Himself taught. The believing and confessing of sins were not meant to be for public consumption. The idea of "calling people up" was not according to the teachings of Jesus Christ Himself, and certainly not what Paul suggested in the references you put forth earlier.

damosky12:
We find similar instances with the early church.
Acts 19:18-19
[18]And many that believed came, and confessed, and shewed their deeds.
[19]Many of them also which used curious arts brought their books together, and burned them before all men: and they counted the price of them, and found it fifty thousand pieces of silver.
It is simply a call to salvation. This resonates throughout the history of the early church in Acts. No one can explain it away!

Did the disciples in fact "CALL" the people in that passage to do make public their confessions and all they did? Or did the people, of their own mindset, do what is described in the passage you picked out there from the book of Acts?