@2buff; « #52 on: Today at 05:04:50 PM »
[Quote]1)All you have to do is look around and you will see that indeed, your creator is feeding you. Just don't expect a phantom spoon to manifest in your mouth with food in it.  Cheesy
You should see how the folks in hell live compared to you.[/Quote]God will prefer a person to belly full, first, before worship, so that greater concentration, sincerity and energy are put in the worship. human nature; worship will be hastened if a good dish is awaiting a hungry worshiper. these are the facts, and not the make belief you are suggesting to make yourself happy in illusion or false hope.



[Quote]2) "Angels are robotic. thats why none of them fell."= umm, dude, 1/3 of all the angels in heaven fell   Undecided[/Quote]Give us a name of an angel that fell along with satan. just one name with proof from the bible. if i ask you to name more, i will put you under tremendous task, considering that the one name i ask you will never be able to produce. we know that angels are numerous in number, maybe uncountable, so 1/3 of uncountable will be also uncountable if not at least almost uncountable. so from the many, give us a single name. when you fail, know that your idea is completely faulty.



[Quote]3) Look, I would tell you to go read the bible properly but I know you won't because you're only interested in finding things from it to quarel about. So here, watch a particular movie on youtube. The trailer is below:[/Quote]They call hollywood Tinsil town. What they do for the most time is make belief. that is not reality. movies with dragons is similar with books with dragons. i dont deal with fiction, considering that you will not be able to provide us name of single angel that fell with satan.

again satan is not an angel, but a genie made out of smokeless fire, will angel are made out of light and humans out of sound clay [water and soil].

1) I don't believe I denied or supported anything that would make that "argument" of your's even remotely relevant.

2) + 3) You haven't read the bible. Read revelations 12.

Am i missing something here? i supposed that the devil was on earth, not Heaven?
Sin is simply missing the mark of God's standard of righteousness. It's like there's a target of righteousness, anyone who fails to hit the mark has sinned. Jesus didn't need to be tempted to steal or fornicate, all He had to not do was miss the mark.

@mantra

mantraa:

Help. I'm confused. According to the scriptures in Genesis, at what point did Satan disobey God and was thrown down to earth? I can't seem to fiind it anywhere.
Was it before the first day, or was it after Adam and Eve had been created?
And on what day was Satan and all the other angels created?

Satan fall was not recorded in genesis. But you will find it in other books such as Isaiah 14:14-18, Ezekiel and jeremiah

Image123:


Am i missing something here?

i supposed that the devil was on earth, not Heaven?

Sin is simply missing the mark of God's standard of righteousness.

It's like there's a target of righteousness, anyone who fails to hit the mark has sinned.

Jesus didn't need to be tempted to steal or fornicate, all He had to not do was miss the mark.

@Image123

Affirmative, the devil is here on earth after getting booted out of heaven, with tail between legs and a scowl to match

Now resident in earth satan goes to and fro, walking up and down in it . . .

Albeit, sin truly and simply is missing the mark of God's standard of righteousness but there is more . . .

God's standard of righteousness is a target

To score a bull's-eye requires hitting the target's centre with 3 aims which are meant to be released at the same

The 3 aims are:

[1] Doing the right thing,
[2] Doing at the right time
[3] Doing with a right standing with GOD (i.e. pre and post right standing that is)

The 3 aims are released at the same time, anything less is sin

In other words one defaults and commits sin by:

[1] "Doing the right thing, at the right time with a wrong standing with GOD"

[2] "Doing the right thing, at the wrong time with a right standing with GOD"

[3] "Doing the wrong thing, at the right time with a right standing with GOD"

Evidently taking pot shots at the target with any of the above permutations easily leads to and/or ends up as sin

Anything less than having 3 rights happening at the same time is sinning

Samson is chargeable with with #1. Samson tried to kill the Philistines after his hair was shaved by Delilah

Adam & Eve controversially are chargeable with with #2. Adam & Eve prematurely ate of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil

Moses is chargeable with with #3. Moses hit the rock twice instead of speaking to it as he was commanded to do by God.

Incidentally just as in the days of monarchs, when the king's word was law so is God's word is law . . .

The Ooni or Queen Elizabeth wouldn't be needing the Senate or Parliament to enact laws back in the day

The "Thou shall nots" whether in Eden or Mount Sinai are laws

and essentially any transgression of the law(s) (i.e. any violation of a law, command etc) is sin

Without a law in Eden, Adam couldn't have possibly sinned . . .

Satan lost the love of the law; the Law of God. The word of God

Without a law in heaven Satan couldn't have disobeyed and sinned

@2buff; « #65 on: Yesterday at 08:23:45 PM »
[Quote][/
1) I don't believe I denied or supported anything that would make that "argument" of your's even remotely relevant.

2) + 3) You haven't read the bible. Read revelations 12[/Quote]You are a christian, i believe. Tell me what jesus your lord said about what you are directing to revelation to learn.

did jesus write or preached 'revelation'?

^^This is clearly a pointless argument. I won't continue it anymore as it wastes time, a precious resource.

It is clear you have read NOTHING in this bible that you try to base your stuff from. This is unfortunately the way of all aethists.

To answer your question and to end it there:
Yes, Jesus did "teach" revelations. In fact, the entire book was essentially authored by Jesus, by his visit to John one of his apostles on the isle of Patmos.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^ so after he ascended to heaven, he came back for revelation. i get it. revelation is after the acts.

very logical; gospel according to, then acts which happened after jesus. then revelation which jesus authored, while he did not author any gospel. thanks.

by the way i am a muslim. its a far cry from being an atheist.

^^ Ok perhaps I should have been a bit more patient with you as it seems to quarel is not your intent.

The book of Revelations was the result of Jesus' visit and revelation to Apostle John of the things to come.
John wrote it, but Jesus showed it all to him. This is what I meant by "he entire book was essentially authored by Jesus, by his visit to John".

Jesus appeared to him, like He can chose to do as He IS alive and seated at the Right Hand of God.

nawa ooo,i read the whole thread and got tired already,abeg choose ur God,n if u dnt bliv in one,stay lyk dat,like d bible says.he dat says dere is no God is a fool,and all of u followin d homosapien story, i pity u,even albert einstein bliv in God.

and for the muslims,i no know una problem,always tryin to find fault in christainity,i respect muslims,cos i know its deir way of worship dat is different but all d principles are almost the same,lets all live in unity ,at least we bliv dere is a God unlike some ppl,(luks around and eyes dose ppl)

dats my ten kobo

@e36991
I sort of agree on the sin definition, that's why i said SIMPLY. As to devil, still of the opinion that he was more on earth, in charge of earth but with unlimited access to Heaven. i think he became more confined to earth with limited access to Heaven after the proud rebellion. Anyway where he was is not an issue. The point is that he missed God's standard of righteousness, that's what he had to do to court God's displeasure, he doesn't have anything created by God to blame for his fall.

@mithel; « #73 on: Today at 09:48:09 AM »
[Quote]nawa ooo,i read the whole thread and got tired already,abeg choose your God,n if u dnt bliv in one,stay lyk dat,like d bible says.he dat says dere is no God is a fool,and all of u followin d homosapien story, i pity u,even albert einstein bliv in God.

and for the muslims,i no know una problem,always tryin to find fault in christainity,i respect muslims,cos i know its deir way of worship dat is different but all d principles are almost the same,lets all live in unity ,at least we bliv dere is a God unlike some ppl,(luks around and eyes dose ppl)

dats my ten kobo[/Quote]what you wrote is worth less than 10 kobos. hopefully, 9.5 kobos out of your kobos was the fine you paid for this piece.

do the christians find fault in Islam?

absolutely; they complain we do not have a system of salvation, as if something must be killed before mercy descends from the Creator Who forgave Adam and his mate without spilling any blood.

@Sweetnecta, you have the answers to the OP's question and you are wasting time with people who do not have the answer.

@OP. your question is a brilliant one. However, you are asking the question from the wrong premise (that is not your fault, it is what you are taught with Christianity). That premise is that Satan was an Angel. The truth is he wasn't and still isn't (don't bother looking for this in the Bible you will not find it there).

Satan was a Jinn(For lack of a better word in English, a spirit). His race had been in existence before man and had lived on earth prior to Adam. They were all destroyed according to some sources or he was the first and only one of his kind at that point and he was allowed to live and roam with the angels while acquiring a lot of their knowledge.

Jinns have a characteristic in common with man which is Freewill. They may decide to follow God's order or not (with consequences of course). Satan's disobedience to God is a reflection of that freewill (and I am not talking about the Biblical story here).

Angels on the other hand are created to obey God's command to the latter. For example, the Angel of death takes life with ruthless efficiency without bothering about the consequences (if man or jinn had been given this job), the concept of death would have been compromised I am sure.

This is just a peripheral explanation and if you want to learn more just google this: How Iblis became shaytan; read, read and read. The Quran is a great reference point as well just as Sweetnecta said.

Of course God Knows best

I am sure most people believe in the existence of spirits (Jinn) apart from humans and angels. Satan is a spirit and not an angel or man. However, both spirits and humans have freewill to do good or bad. Paradise or Hell is the reward for whichever of the two (good or bad) that any human or Jinn (Spirit) chooses.

P.S.: Good or Bad is defined by God's very own divine commandments. We Muslims believe that the final commandments for humans and Jinn are in the Qur'an and that Prophet Muhammd (SAW) is the last person sent to teach the divine law and guidance for the whole of mankind and Jinn.

Sweetnecta:

@mithel; « #73 on: Today at 09:48:09 AM »what you wrote is worth less than 10 kobos. hopefully, 9.5 kobos out of your kobos was the fine you paid for this piece.

do the christians find fault in Islam?

absolutely; they complain we do not have a system of salvation, as if something must be killed before mercy descends from the Creator Who forgave Adam and his mate without spilling any blood.

see,i dnt find faults in things,i look for gud tins in tins,nw lets take a look at the thread,your first reply


@OP; if you are serious about knowing the truth about who satan was before he became 'devlish/satanic', the acts that made him so, read the Quran. if you want a faith that has good and sound clear answers, Islam is it.


You only have to goggle who Iblis is. Who Shaytan is. What was he made of. Surah Baqarah, Araf, Kahf are three chapters among others to guide you. I can answer what everyone have been waffling and trying to avoid, including the no answer provided by Jesoul. Its better to do your own research of the Quran and come out with personal knowledge.


now,what i see here is just an attempt to make the poster think,"oh,it seems dis religion(xtian) is nt it o,ageg islam is the one and only confirmed religion" n before u abuse me,dats just wat i see


now,comin to the salvation part,its possible u av argued with oda xtians abt this issue countless tyms ,but dat doesnt mean everyone thinks like dat,i av come to accept islam as much i accept christianity,i know some of my fellow xtain brodas feel muslims av to come to jesus and d salvation stuff,but all God wants to see first is your heartt and both religions teach almost same thing in terms of treatin ur neighbor,at least we worship one God and we beleive there is one God too,so lets forget,u r for Jesus and i am For muhamed or Allah,PEACE IS D WAY FORWARD,

dats my one kobo n please no reduce am again oooo

Magic jinn from the magic lamp right? lol sick and deluded confused sets of humans. Religion (foreign one) has blinded you ppl. What evidence do you have that the devil exists?

How can you seperate the tales from fiction?

any body recommending Qu'ran should tie some bombs round his west and blow himself up in a mosque, 72 virgins and wine flowing like a river await you in your assumed elderado

Kay 17:

Magic jinn from the magic lamp right? lol sick and deluded confused sets of humans. Religion (foreign one) has blinded you ppl. What evidence do you have that the devil exists?

Actually, you are the one blinded by Walt Disney or is it the Arabian Nights? These concepts have always existed before all of what you are looking at. The story of Aladdin is a folk tale different from what I am saying. The proof that the devil exists is within you already or don't you have a conscience? Do you feel well when you do the right thing? Do you feel ill when you do the wrong thing? Who or what made that suggestion to you to do the bad act in the first place? If you did it of totally of your own freewill, why should you feel bad about it at all? These questions and a clear head in analyzing them will help you proof that the devil exists.

By the way, name calling does not prove anything, it only proves that you lack a better argument or have next to no debating skills.

free123:

any body recommending Qu'ran should tie some bombs round his west and blow himself up in a mosque, 72 virgins and wine flowing like a river await you in your assumed elderado

Your power of analysis is very poor. At most you are either a Christian or an Atheist. Either way, your likes influence most of the media and hold positions of authority. What do they portray to us everyday if you want to be honest? They tell us that having a string of beautiful women is the standard of enjoyment for the real man and of course he most be a connoisseur of the "finest drinks and wine." Of course there are no rules or restraints on how they plunder (enjoy) women and they can drink all they want. Is that not why James Bond is the western world's greatest fictional action character. The man that most men of your kind dream of being?

Now, the Qur'an tells you not to fornicate or drink alcohol because it does more ill than good, worship God and obey his rules. Why is it totally out of your comprehension that beautiful women (better than the world and what it contains) and pure (non-intoxicating wine) should be part of the reward for such a life of righteousness on earth in paradise.

As for blowing yourself up with bombs, quote the direct verse in the Qur'an if you are so sure it exists and stop writing things from your own head. Maybe you are the one with those tendencies.

Tthe truth is no one can tell completely why satan disobeyed God because God in his infinite wisdom has decided to keep that to himself.If God were to let u know all he does then you would be equal to him so sorry guys not while on earth will u understand alot of things that happen or happened in the supernatural. Many things will remain a mystery to us. This just like asking why does bad things happen to Good people and why does Good things happen to bad people you will ask forever. This is where you say lord give me the serenity to be at peace when i cannot understand everything

free123:

any body recommending Qu'ran should tie some bombs round his west and blow himself up in a mosque, 72 virgins and wine flowing like a river await you in your assumed elderado

You have just made a statement that offends the sensibilities of others and I think you should apologise. Let's try to keep to the core issues as much as possible when discussing especially on a thread like this.

@kay17; « #79 on: Today at 02:16:33 PM »
[Quote]Magic jinn from the magic lamp right? lol sick and deluded confused sets of humans. Religion (foreign one) has blinded you ppl. What evidence do you have that the devil exists?]/Quote]am sure you have heard someone say the devil made him so it? or he is the devil by such horrific act. the list goes on.

the devil confuses people making reality like a make belief. even white people who i think you adore so much believe in the existence of the devil. have you heard of satan worshipers [ogaga is a nigerian example. he says it of himself. may God Almighty retrieve him from this label. amin]? satan is the devil because he is evil. you know evil right? the opposite of righteousness.
[/quote]

[Quote]« #81 on: Today at 02:24:53 PM »

any body recommending Qu'ran should tie some bombs round his west and blow himself up in a mosque, 72 virgins and wine flowing like a river await you in your assumed elderado[/Quote]the jews invented blowing up building [king David Hotel, in Jerusalem]. with bombs in the east of red sea.

@2buff

2buff:
The answer:
None of my business and none of yours. I intend to make heaven and I intend to bring as many as possible along. If this is your rationale for avoiding heaven, to each his own boss.

Of course it is our business. Unless you're selling this heaven that you seem to know nothing about yet you want more followers? Maybe I'll try for the Norse heaven instead. At least there'll be lots of activity.

your question:
What is to stop another angel from rebeling?

My answer:
None of my business and none of yours. I intend to make heaven and I intend to bring as many as possible along. If this is your rationale for avoiding heaven, to each his own boss.

How whether another fallen is born factor into your salvation? It's none of your business and none of mine. I'm sure you'll get the same "it's really none of your business right now, you have bigger things on your plate" response on that subject even if you were somehow to ask God or his angels (not a demon).

And make note. I'm not selling [/b]you anything. Selling would imply that you're paying or giving me something, you're not.
I am simply giving you information on the only way to exempt yourself from the fate of a fallen race. By that logic, I'm paying you 

The foundation of all things, especially of our faith, is our trust in God. If you have [b]only your self to rely on, it is easy (or not so much) to see how such things would [i]bother [/i]you. Without our trust in god and His WORD, we would not be assured of a heaven to get to either.

you won't understand because the trust or belief in God is the one thing you are still evading. Learn first to walk before you can sprint.

2buff:

your question:
What is to stop another angel from rebeling?

My answer:
None of my business and none of yours. I intend to make heaven and I intend to bring as many as possible along. If this is your rationale for avoiding heaven, to each his own boss.

How whether another fallen is born factor into your salvation? It's none of your business and none of mine. I'm sure you'll get the same "it's really none of your business right now, you have bigger things on your plate" response on that subject even if you were somehow to ask God or his angels (not a demon).

And make note. I'm not selling [/b]you anything. Selling would imply that you're paying or giving me something, you're not.
I am simply giving you information on the only way to exempt yourself from the fate of a fallen race. By that logic, I'm paying you 

The foundation of all things, especially of our faith, is our trust in God. If you have [b]only your self to rely on, it is easy (or not so much) to see how such things would [i]bother [/i]you. Without our trust in god and His WORD, we would not be assured of a heaven to get to either.

you won't understand because the trust or belief in God is the one thing you are still evading. Learn first to walk before you can sprint.

Whether or not you realize it, you are indeed selling your idea of heaven. And if I buy it, it will cost me somethings like money for tithes and offerings, time spent performing Christian rituals etc.
What I need first are reasons to trust or believe in this God of yours.

maclatunji:

Actually, you are the one blinded by Walt Disney or is it the Arabian Nights? These concepts have always existed before all of what you are looking at. The story of Aladdin is a folk tale different from what I am saying. The proof that the devil exists is within you already or don't you have a conscience? Do you feel well when you do the right thing? Do you feel ill when you do the wrong thing? Who or what made that suggestion to you to do the bad act in the first place? If you did it of totally of your own freewill, why should you feel bad about it at all? These questions and a clear head in analyzing them will help you proof that the devil exists.

By the way, name calling does not prove anything, it only proves that you lack a better argument or have next to no debating skills.

If I kill one from jealousy without justification, its murder. But if i kill someone in a form of self defence or in a state of war, it is considered right. Some religions direct human sacrifices and consider it proper and right. How about that? Our standards of right and wrong are not universal!

thehomer:


Whether or not you realize it, you are indeed selling your idea of heaven. And if I buy it, it will cost me somethings like money for tithes and offerings, time spent performing Christian rituals etc.
What I need first are reasons to trust or believe in this God of yours.

Your "rituals", tithes and offerings are purely optional.

As to reasons to trust God, I won't give you any, as you will simply insult it and label it "nature", as if nature itself was not architected under an impeccable order as opposed to this chaos theory you people tend to believe in. A theory that when honestly and scientifically assessed, would have made some human beings evolve with their balls dangling from their foreheads or arms sprouting from their crotches. Not to mention the fact that some stray comet should have wiped us out by now with all those cosmic bodies flying around (one created an earth-sized whole in Jupiter a short while back).

There are other "reasons" that are personal to me. I won't have you insult those either.
I will however pray that the eyes of your spirit become open.

2buff:

Your "rituals", tithes and offerings are purely optional.

Purely optional? What, are you Jesus now? I think Jesus said something along the lines of rendering things to Caeser and some other things to God.

2buff:

As to reasons to trust God, I won't give you any, as you will simply insult it and label it "nature", as if nature itself was not architected under an impeccable order as opposed to this chaos theory you people tend to believe in. A theory that when honestly and scientifically assessed, would have made some human beings evolve with their balls dangling from their foreheads or arms sprouting from their crotches. Not to mention the fact that some stray comet should have wiped us out by now with all those cosmic bodies flying around (one created an earth-sized whole in Jupiter a short while back).

So you want me to believe some stories that you suspect I'll find ridiculous? Maybe you already secretly find them ridiculous yourself. How would humans evolving with their Instruments on their foreheads be beneficial to their reproduction? It seems you need to educate yourself on what the theory of evolution actually is about. Actually, catastrophic impacts have occurred before. That was one of the major forces that drove dinosaurs to extinction paving the way for humans and large mammals.

2buff:

There are other "reasons" that are personal to me. I won't have you insult those either.
I will however pray that the eyes of your spirit become open.

Well pray away. Just let me know when you start and I'll let you know how it turns out. When you need an update on the effects of your prayers, just make a post on this thread requesting for it and I'll try to respond if I'm available.

Kay 17:

If I kill one from jealousy without justification, its murder. But if i kill someone in a form of self defence or in a state of war, it is considered right. Some religions direct human sacrifices and consider it proper and right. How about that? Our standards of right and wrong are not universal!

I know you are trying to sound smart here, but seriously you are missing the target like George Foreman did against Muhammad Ali in the Rumble in the Jungle.

You are trying to tell me that you do not have a conscience and it does not rebuke you when you do wrong.

Or you are saying you do not know basic wrong from right because the "standards of right and wrong are not universal!"

Like it is said common sense is not common.

^^^what are these morals written in our hearts?

And Foreman found his target all the time and exhausted himself to quickly.

2buff:

Your "rituals", tithes and offerings are purely optional.

As to reasons to trust God, I won't give you any, as you will simply insult it and label it "nature", as if nature itself was not architected under an impeccable order as opposed to this chaos theory you people tend to believe in. A theory that when honestly and scientifically assessed, would have made some human beings evolve with their balls dangling from their foreheads or arms sprouting from their crotches. Not to mention the fact that some stray comet should have wiped us out by now with all those cosmic bodies flying around (one created an earth-sized whole in Jupiter a short while back).

There are other "reasons" that are personal to me. I won't have you insult those either.
I will however pray that the eyes of your spirit become open.

some animals have evolved ugly habits and strange body features, like a bat excreting from its mouth! or having 24 eyes