JeSoul:

^M_Nwankwo, oga sir, I hope you and the whole family are well beyond well .
  Very well articulated.

And as long as you weren't trying to convince us like DS that this is what bible (and Jesus) teaches.

Hi JeSoul. Thanks for you kind words. The family is fine. Hope you are doing great too.


No, I am not trying to convince you or anybody else that my view is what the bible teaches. What I posted was not derived from the bible. It is my sensing of what Jesus taught. As always, stay blessed.

^I am glad you and yours are well sir. We thank God.

And thank you for ^that as well. You know I always appreciate reading from you. Your input is always well delivered and well received. Stay blessed! (and you should post more often too, though I suspect you only do so when your spirit prompts you to).

Jesoul. If what Nwankwo posted above was not the teaching of Jesus why did Jesus say 'By their fruits ye shall know them'

Reflect carefully on that.

Another scriptural pointer.

@m_nwankwo

Could you please clarify something for me? You said:

m_nwankwo:

On earth, it is possible for an atheist to love God without being spiritually conscious of it. However if such atheist continues in the manifestation of the love of God, either later in this earthly life or in the beyond on in another earthly life the emanations of the love of God that vibrates in his spirit will also permeate his earthly brain such that he also becomes conscious of the existence of God while in the physical body. What counts is how our spirit is close or far away from the will of God.

The clarification I seek is on how the person becomes conscious of the existence of God in the beyond. Taking aside the reference to "the beyond", I can see how some of the rest of the bit I've quoted can fit within Christian conceptions. ((Before expanding the point, here I note that my very first post on this thread should have had a qualification in respect of point 1 in that post))

What I mean is this: within Christianity it is also held that God's love draws people even while they are sinners; thus even an atheist is subject to the call of God, the call of the Spirit of God; that atheist may eventually expressly acknowledge God but here, apart possibly from the idea of purgatory, Christianity sees that acknowledgment as occuring on this earth (I will leave aside the idea of "another earthly life" and issues of reincarnation).

@Jesoul
1 John 4:7-11 special emphasis on verse 11 explains how it is only possible to love God if we love others, I would have posted the passage here for the benefit of all but I am currently using my phone to browse, would appreciate if anybody with a e-bible should help in posting the passage. It should help throw some light on the discourse.

Kunle, the question is simply this:

Biblically, is it possible to ¹hate/reject God (the atheist) but ² do good works - and this alone guarantees salvation in the sight of a God - a God which the atheist himself has rejected?

By the way, I have avoided quoting scriptures outside of the 4 gospels on purpose - because Deepsight rejects them as credible.

^^^ Actually it is a common over simplification leading to a misreading to assume that once we love our neighbours we automatically love God.

This is where it is important when people speak of "the whole counsel of scripture".

First, you only need to read 1 John 4 through to the end (and see in particular verses 15 & 19) to know that you can in fact separate loving God from "loving neighbour". The better view from the Christian viewpoint is that "loving neighbour" is a consequence of loving God in the first place. if you love God you will love neighbour; compare if you have faith, you will do good works ------ its the same kind of concept.

Further on this separation read further 1 John 5 which actually specifically sets out what it means to love God.

@jesoul

I don't want to get into this debate for now cos I am still studying the issues involved biblically. Funny enough the issue was raised and discussed in my church last sunday during bible study and we couldn't reach a conclusion. We hope to complete the discourse on it this sunday. But one thing is clear to me is that the popular church criteria for salvation is not entirely accurate biblically speaking.

The Christian doctrine is authoritative on the issue of salvation and love is as common as the air, As long emotions of pity. sympathy or admiration operate love will. my 2kobo

m_nwankwo:

God is love. One can also say that God is the source of love. All creatures of God irrespective of race, religion, sex, nationality etc can absorb of this love of God and dispense it accordingly. In the case of human beings, what absorbs this love from God is the human spirit. This love will permeate the spirit, its clocks including the outermost shell, the physical body. Thus he who absorbs the rays of love will manifest love including love for all creations of God. Now, the recognition of this love as coming from God depends on the various radiation connection between the spirit and the various shells surrounding the spirit, the last shell being the physical body and its coordinating center, the human brain. In many of us, this radiation connections are not straight, thus the shells enveloping the spirit are not conscious of the impressions that vibrates in the spirit. Thus a man may believe himself to be an atheist because that is what his brain tells him and yet his spirit is in the recognition of God. Irrespective of his brain telling him that God does not exist, the emanations of the spirit including love still permeates his mind and body resulting in expressions of genuine love. Thus although from a human standpoint, such a man is considered by himself and others to be atheist, spiritually the man is a theist.


In a similar vein the brain and the mind may be trained or indoctrinated or programmed to believe in God but their spirit has no recognition of God. In this case, this believer is actually an atheist even though he believes himself to be a theist. However because he, that is, the spirit has no connection with God, he cannot absorb the rays of love and manifest it. Thus, in spite of his intellectual believe in God, he still manifests the works of the flesh including hatred, anger, lust, gossip, avarice, fear, etc. The species of a seed determines the fruits that it will bear. Thus all genuine love and human beings who indulge in it believe in God even when they are unconscious of it while on earth.

Thus, all human beings who indulge in genuine love are of God and all those who indulge in hatred are not of God. By there works or fruits, you shall know those who stand in the will of God and those that oppose it or do not recognize it. This is an infallible yardstick to know who belongs to God and those who are not.

Therefore the love of God manifests in the love of all creations of God. On earth, it is possible for an atheist to love God without being spiritually conscious of it. However if such atheist continues in the manifestation of the love of God, either later in this earthly life or in the beyond on in another earthly life the emanations of the love of God that vibrates in his spirit will also permeate his earthly brain such that he also becomes conscious of the existence of God while in the physical body. What counts is how our spirit is close or far away from the will of God. Religion, nationality, sex, class and similar things that we think are very important while on earth are worthless once we drop this physical body.

In my view, there is no difference between the pope, the Christian, the mystic or an atheists when it concerns the will of God. Murder is murder whether perpetrated by a pope, a theist or an atheist. Genuine love is genuine love whether it came from an atheist, a pastor or an agnostic. Sometimes we think too much and thus think nothing. If we look around even on earth, we should find that the natural laws which are the manifestation of the will of God in nature does not give a hoot about all these artificial constructs. If a bud-hist sows yam in a fertile soil, he will reap yam. The same goes for an atheist and the theist. In an earthquake or epidemic or accident, both theists and atheists are saved and killed. A deeper look on why these things are the way they are may open our eyes to the working of God. Best wishes.

I do not know with what words to bless and thank you for this priceless post. I will be sharing it with my siblings.

It captures the spiritual truth perfectly.

And it is in this ^^^ light that i find difficulty understanding - - -

JeSoul:

. . . and in process divorce the spirituality that is at the heart of it, and dismiss it as irrelevant -

- - - what exactly is meant by "spirituality" in the above sentence.

-How exactly does an atheist accomplish these 3 core - spiritual - requirements? When by his every breath he actually rejects it?

Read Nwankwo's post again. Also read Matt 25:35 again.

I have a completely different opinion on this issue.
Religion has nothing to do with morality.  Infact, the ‘morality’ of the religious is not real.  They engage in what I call “command morality” While the non-religious has developed the ability to reason out moral issues on their merit, the religious has to follow pre-packaged instructions from his holy book. Or worse, follow instructions from other people who claim to know the opinion of their God.  These self-styled men of God just package their own infantile moralities or immoralities as the word of God.  That is why you have dozens of interpretations of the same passage of a holy book. And each proponent of a particular interpretation firmly believes his own interpretation is the real opinion of God!!
Why do you still have ‘bible study’ more than 2000 years after the book was written?  As if all the possible meanings have not been discovered yet!!  New meanings, and newer twists to old meanings of the same passages are still being churned out daily in various churches, bible study sessions, seminaries, and religious communes around the world.
“Command morality” is what makes a pastor in calabar to brand an innocent child a witch and torture them in the name of deliverance!  Command morality is what causes a Boko Haram convert to kill fellow human beings just because they don’t share his beliefs. Command morality is the underlying factor for the September 11 disaster,  the crusades of old, religious wars and a lot of man’s inhumanity to man!  An Aladura prophetess was arrested in Lagos recently for burning the two hands of a little girl, believing she was being delivered from evil spirits!!  You need to have seen her on TV.  She sincerely believed she was helping the poor girl!!
When you become religious, you mortgage a bit of you right and ability to reason out moral issues for yourself. The reasoning has already been done for you.  Independent reasoning is frowned upon.  Just listen to your ‘man of God’ for the direct instructions from God or his interpretation of passages of the holy book(instruction manual)  And the more religious you get, the more you mortgage.  In the extreme, you become a zombie, a cult member, following only the instructions of the leader, or the leader’s interpretation of the holy book for even basic aspects of your life, like what to eat, what to wear, how to spend your money etc.
Believing in God does not make you good.  It does not improve your ability to be good.  You do good deeds when the holy book instructs you to do so, or when it promises some reward either here or in an afterlife.  I don’t know how many religious people  will still do good deeds if they are told there are no ‘blessings’  or  ‘eternal life’ to be derived from such acts.  You can be good or bad whether you believe in God or not.  And you are an intrinsically better person when you are good without believing in God.

Two thumbs up, mate. Well said.

alaper:

I have a completely different opinion on this issue.
Religion has nothing to do with morality.  Infact, the ‘morality’ of the religious is not real.  They engage in what I call “command morality” While the non-religious has developed the ability to reason out moral issues on their merit, the religious has to follow pre-packaged instructions from his holy book. Or worse, follow instructions from other people who claim to know the opinion of their God.  These self-styled men of God just package their own infantile moralities or immoralities as the word of God.  That is why you have dozens of interpretations of the same passage of a holy book. And each proponent of a particular interpretation firmly believes his own interpretation is the real opinion of God!!
Why do you still have ‘bible study’ more than 2000 years after the book was written?  As if all the possible meanings have not been discovered yet!!  New meanings, and newer twists to old meanings of the same passages are still being churned out daily in various churches, bible study sessions, seminaries, and religious communes around the world.
“Command morality” is what makes a pastor in calabar to brand an innocent child a witch and torture them in the name of deliverance!  Command morality is what causes a Boko Haram convert to kill fellow human beings just because they don’t share his beliefs. Command morality is the underlying factor for the September 11 disaster,  the crusades of old, religious wars and a lot of man’s inhumanity to man!  An Aladura prophetess was arrested in Lagos recently for burning the two hands of a little girl, believing she was being delivered from evil spirits!!  You need to have seen her on TV.  She sincerely believed she was helping the poor girl!!
When you become religious, you mortgage a bit of you right and ability to reason out moral issues for yourself. The reasoning has already been done for you.  Independent reasoning is frowned upon.  Just listen to your ‘man of God’ for the direct instructions from God or his interpretation of passages of the holy book(instruction manual)  And the more religious you get, the more you mortgage.  In the extreme, you become a zombie, a cult member, following only the instructions of the leader, or the leader’s interpretation of the holy book for even basic aspects of your life, like what to eat, what to wear, how to spend your money etc.
Believing in God does not make you good.  It does not improve your ability to be good.  You do good deeds when the holy book instructs you to do so, or when it promises some reward either here or in an afterlife.  I don’t know how many religious people  will still do good deeds if they are told there are no ‘blessings’  or  ‘eternal life’ to be derived from such acts.  You can be good or bad whether you believe in God or not.  And you are an intrinsically better person when you are good without believing in God. 

alaper:

I have a completely different opinion on this issue.
Religion has nothing to do with morality. Infact, the ‘morality’ of the religious is not real. They engage in what I call “command morality” While the non-religious has developed the ability to reason out moral issues on their merit, the religious has to follow pre-packaged instructions from his holy book. Or worse, follow instructions from other people who claim to know the opinion of their God. These self-styled men of God just package their own infantile moralities or immoralities as the word of God. That is why you have dozens of interpretations of the same passage of a holy book. And each proponent of a particular interpretation firmly believes his own interpretation is the real opinion of God!!
Why do you still have ‘bible study’ more than 2000 years after the book was written? As if all the possible meanings have not been discovered yet!! New meanings, and newer twists to old meanings of the same passages are still being churned out daily in various churches, bible study sessions, seminaries, and religious communes around the world.
“Command morality” is what makes a pastor in calabar to brand an innocent child a witch and torture them in the name of deliverance! Command morality is what causes a Boko Haram convert to kill fellow human beings just because they don’t share his beliefs. Command morality is the underlying factor for the September 11 disaster, the crusades of old, religious wars and a lot of man’s inhumanity to man! An Aladura prophetess was arrested in Lagos recently for burning the two hands of a little girl, believing she was being delivered from evil spirits!! You need to have seen her on TV. She sincerely believed she was helping the poor girl!!
When you become religious, you mortgage a bit of you right and ability to reason out moral issues for yourself. The reasoning has already been done for you. Independent reasoning is frowned upon. Just listen to your ‘man of God’ for the direct instructions from God or his interpretation of passages of the holy book(instruction manual) And the more religious you get, the more you mortgage. In the extreme, you become a zombie, a cult member, following only the instructions of the leader, or the leader’s interpretation of the holy book for even basic aspects of your life, like what to eat, what to wear, how to spend your money etc.
Believing in God does not make you good. It does not improve your ability to be good. You do good deeds when the holy book instructs you to do so, or when it promises some reward either here or in an afterlife. I don’t know how many religious people will still do good deeds if they are told there are no ‘blessings’ or ‘eternal life’ to be derived from such acts. You can be good or bad whether you believe in God or not. And you are an intrinsically better person when you are good without believing in God.

Word! God bless you brother. This is the pure unadulterated truth.

Personally I think its just a continuous attempt by religion to hijack anything somehow perceived to be good. While morally upright people sure exist a lot in all the main faiths, it does not mean the faiths have exclusivity to morals.

If you actually need the 10 commandments only to refrain you from killing someone or restrain you from snatching someone's wife, then you need your head examined. Most of us here i believe have helped a less-privileged person before however possible(finance, helping an aged person cross the road, helping a kid with assignments, teaching tutorials free in school etc). While doing this, were you really thinking to score some heaven points on the judgment day or your humanity just took over? If the former, you think a supreme being would not see through that?

C'mon!






_{DeeeeeeeeepSight, how far bro?}

m_nwankwo:

God is love. One can also say that God is the source of love. All creatures of God irrespective of race, religion, sex, nationality etc can absorb of this love of God and dispense it accordingly. In the case of human beings, what absorbs this love from God is the human spirit. This love will permeate the spirit, its clocks including the outermost shell, the physical body. Thus he who absorbs the rays of love will manifest love including love for all creations of God. Now, the recognition of this love as coming from God depends on the various radiation connection between the spirit and the various shells surrounding the spirit, the last shell being the physical body and its coordinating center, the human brain. In many of us, this radiation connections are not straight, thus the shells enveloping the spirit are not conscious of the impressions that vibrates in the spirit. Thus a man may believe himself to be an atheist because that is what his brain tells him and yet his spirit is in the recognition of God. Irrespective of his brain telling him that God does not exist, the emanations of the spirit including love still permeates his mind and body resulting in expressions of genuine love. Thus although from a human standpoint, such a man is considered by himself and others to be atheist, spiritually the man is a theist.


In a similar vein the brain and the mind may be trained or indoctrinated or programmed to believe in God but their spirit has no recognition of God. In this case, this believer is actually an atheist even though he believes himself to be a theist. However because he, that is, the spirit has no connection with God, he cannot absorb the rays of love and manifest it. Thus, in spite of his intellectual believe in God, he still manifests the works of the flesh including hatred, anger, lust, gossip, avarice, fear, etc. The species of a seed determines the fruits that it will bear. Thus all genuine love and human beings who indulge in it believe in God even when they are unconscious of it while on earth.

Thus, all human beings who indulge in genuine love are of God and all those who indulge in hatred are not of God. By there works or fruits, you shall know those who stand in the will of God and those that oppose it or do not recognize it. This is an infallible yardstick to know who belongs to God and those who are not.

Therefore the love of God manifests in the love of all creations of God. On earth, it is possible for an atheist to love God without being spiritually conscious of it. However if such atheist continues in the manifestation of the love of God, either later in this earthly life or in the beyond on in another earthly life the emanations of the love of God that vibrates in his spirit will also permeate his earthly brain such that he also becomes conscious of the existence of God while in the physical body. What counts is how our spirit is close or far away from the will of God. Religion, nationality, sex, class and similar things that we think are very important while on earth are worthless once we drop this physical body.

In my view, there is no difference between the pope, the Christian, the mystic or an atheists when it concerns the will of God. Murder is murder whether perpetrated by a pope, a theist or an atheist. Genuine love is genuine love whether it came from an atheist, a pastor or an agnostic. Sometimes we think too much and thus think nothing. If we look around even on earth, we should find that the natural laws which are the manifestation of the will of God in nature does not give a hoot about all these artificial constructs. If a bud-hist sows yam in a fertile soil, he will reap yam. The same goes for an atheist and the theist. In an earthquake or epidemic or accident, both theists and atheists are saved and killed. A deeper look on why these things are the way they are may open our eyes to the working of God. Best wishes.

This is really beautiful. The above words fell like water on my thirsty spirit. M_nwankwo thanks, and may the almighty reward you!

Enigma:

@m_nwankwo

Could you please clarify something for me? You said:

The clarification I seek is on how the person becomes conscious of the existence of God in the beyond. Taking aside the reference to "the beyond", I can see how some of the rest of the bit I've quoted can fit within Christian conceptions. ((Before expanding the point, here I note that my very first post on this thread should have had a qualification in respect of point 1 in that post))

What I mean is this: within Christianity it is also held that God's love draws people even while they are sinners; thus even an atheist is subject to the call of God, the call of the Spirit of God; that atheist may eventually expressly acknowledge God but here, apart possibly from the idea of purgatory, Christianity sees that acknowledgment as occuring on this earth (I will leave aside the idea of "another earthly life" and issues of reincarnation).

Hi Enigma. Thank you for your well thought comment. The love of God is available to all whether they are on earth or in non-physical planes (the beyond). Even in the dark regions that men call hell, the love of God can incline to souls in hell and save them. Thus there can be repentance even in hell. The only difference is that it is far easier for a soul to repent while on earth than for it to do so in the beyond. The reason is that on earth, souls of different maturity exist side by side, and thus dark souls or sinners can learn from pure and evolved souls. The opposite can also happen where purer souls are dragged down by darker souls if the lighter souls momentarily or permanently loose there spiritual alertness or become indolent. The case is however different in the beyond where souls of similar maturity exist together. Thus murderers stay together with fellow murderers, the same for gossipers, lies, etc,  but purer souls also stay together, completely protected from the emanations or activities of impure or dark soul. I hope you can easily surmise why it is more difficult to repent in the beyond than to repent on earth.

Now the love of God is just that it will not allow even a single soul to perish if such a soul yearns for deliverance from darkness. Now, a soul in the dark spheres of the beyond, the so called hell can after decades or even millions of earth years get disgusted with the nauseating experience and an inner  yearning to escape this terrible condition may arise in him. This yearning can develop into a powerful prayer that is able to attract the love of God. The love of God through chains of mediators (servants of God) can gradually lead the soul out of the dark spheres into a less dark sphere and finally into a lighter plane where such a soul continues the process of reformation. I am only describing the principles because if I reproduce a life picture of such happenings, it may be a bit confusing as each of such rescue is so different. Until the last moment, each soul no matter where he is in creation can find the love of God.

The love of God vibrates in all creations just like the rays of the sun illumines the earth. Just like the illumination of the sun exists whether or not we open our eyes, so is the love of God whether or not we are are conscious of it.  We were in existence before we were born on earth and we will be in existence when we drop our physical body. The love of God is here on earth as well as in the beyond. If the love of God is present both on earth and beyond, then repentance and redemption is possible both here on earth and in the beyond. Also remember that the word of God is also present both on earth and in the beyond. Although, it does not directly belong here, I just want to point out that some souls presently living on earth came to the recognition of God before there physical bodies were conceived. Stay blessed.

Deep Sight:

I do not know with what words to bless and thank you for this priceless post. I will be sharing it with my siblings.

It captures the spiritual truth perfectly.

Hi Deepsight. Thank you for your kind words. Stay blessed.

justcool:


This is really beautiful. The above words fell like water on my thirsty spirit. M_nwankwo thanks, and may the almighty reward you!

Hi Justcool. Thank you for your kind words and prayers. Stay blessed.

Many thanks for the clarification, m_nwankwo.  Stay blessed.