author=2muchlogic link=topic=638180.msg8075978#msg8075978 date=1302210194
I see where you are comming from but the whole of Africa uniting is a pipe dream at present - Nkurumah and Lumumba went to their graves with that dream and Gaddafi was the last leader pushing for it - notice how Gadaffi had the picture of those two African legends behind him when he made speeches?

lumumba was betrayed by his own people and assassinated by the CIA, Nkrumah was toppled by the CIA, we are not a united people that is why its so easy for the whites to infiltrate, divide and conquer us, there are so many among us who will sell their own mothers for a few pieces of silver.

I believe that what Africa needs now is good management, but the leaders are hopelessly devoid of any kind of ideology that will lead to prosperity.  Look at Nigeria today, their destiny lies in the hands of a former brutal ex dictator 68 years young and a pastor,  a former policeman who is loyal to Godfathers or the incumbent who is sleep walking when he's at his best.

good management will not stop the west from dropping 120 tomahawk missiles on your country if you fail to allow them in to pillage and plunder your natural resources. gadaffi modernised his nation and uplifted his people, he increased their standard of living and to date libyan people enjoy the highest standard of living in africa and yet  look at what the west is doing to the country.  the only way to repel such an attack is to have a well developed military with nuclear weapons.

If each country is well managed the respect and unity will come naturally with time.

no it wont, britain and america are bankrupt - they need your oil and mineral resources to prevent their economies from going under, they will bomb you into submission if you refuse to allow them in to ra.pe and plunder you.
the only way out is military might -  if you cant defend yourself from military attack you are toast.

Its so funnny [b]PEACE[/b]keepers attack Ivorians   what kind of PEACE is that?? The west are taking double standards and imperialism to a new level; whilst the world watches they blantantly violate all the rules they created themselves  

the idea is to bring the ivoriens in to line, they are unable to defend themselve and that is why they have been invaded and bombed into submission by the UN/France.

Don't forget that about 10 years ago the British did the same thing in Sierria Leone, the Nigerian troops did all the hard fighting and DYING.  The world was harking on about how toothless the AU was despite Nigeria's efforts so Obasanjo at the time asked the EU for Logistical help to finish off the job - but they refused.  Eventually the British came in to finish off the job captured Foday Sankoh and took all the Glory.  Looks like in 2011 Gbagbo is playing Foday Sankoh and Sakozy is playing Blair.  :-

you have to understand that ECOMOG is a army of african pawns used by european nations to fight wars that the europeans do not want to fight, the europeans have figured out that africans and their  leaders are so st.upid that they think its okay for their troops to go and die in order to ensure that the europeans continue to be allowed to plunder africa's natural resources.

the worst part of this set up is that the europeans dont even want to use their own troops to do this dirty work , after all africans lives are worth less and therefore can be used by them to acheive their objectives.

they have been using africans like this  for almost 4 centuries and it appears many of us are yet to wake up.

cap28:

lumumba was betrayed by his own people and assassinated by the CIA, Nkrumah was toppled by the CIA, we are not a united people that is why its so easy for the whites to infiltrate, divide and conquer us, there are so many among us who will sell their own mothers for a few pieces of silver.

Thats right, they were both betrayed.

cap28:

good management will not stop the west from dropping 120 tomahawk missiles on your country if you fail to allow them in to pillage and plunder your natural resources. gadaffi modernised his nation and uplifted his people, he increased their standard of living and to date libyan people enjoy the highest standard of living in africa and yet  look at what the west is doing to the country.

With all due respect i think you mistook my generic answer the wrong way, management encompasses many different disciplines finance, technology, economics, warfare etc and africans have failed to manage their county's properly! 
Gadaffi did not modernize Libya - give me a break!!!! And his GDP per capita was high due to his small population of around 5 million people around 50% of the population of Lagos state and yet his country has a land mass nearly double the size of Nigeria.  Why would he have $70 billion plus, invested in the west? after 42 years ruling a country with a single language and all of those resources he has seriously under performed.  Surely, you will admit that a nation with africa's largest oil deposits coupled with one of Africa's smallest populations has been seriously mismanaged.  However it dose not give the west the right to bomb. 

cap28:

the only way to repel such an attack is to have a well developed military with nuclear weapons.

War is more than bombs, it encompasses economics, technology, information, culture, education and the simplest component weapons. Look at North Korea they have developed Nuclear weapons so why are they still suffering? The west have decided to launch an economic and information war on them instead.

cap28:

no it wont, britain and america are bankrupt - they need your oil and mineral resources to prevent their economies from going under, they will bomb you into submission if you refuse to allow them in to ra.pe and plunder you.
the only way out is military might -  if you cant defend yourself from military attack you are toast.

They are not my resources  again i will re-iterate my response above: Look at North Korea they have developed Nuclear weapons so why are they still suffering? The west have decided to launch an economic and information war on them instead. Furthermore has Pakistan not developed Nukes? Yet the USA still treat them like you know what.  Nigeria dose not have Nukes and yet its richer than Pakistan and North Korea; you see the USA spend hundreds of billions on weapons every year can these 'developing countries' match that expenditure?  If you think on another axis rather than just being reactive to all the oyinbo moves you will see the real potential of Africa.

cap28:

the idea is to bring the ivoriens in to line, they are unable to defend themselve and that is why they have been invaded and bombed into submission by the UN/France.

my version is that Quattara is backed and armed by the west to replace Gbagbo

cap28:

ECOMOG is a army of african pawns used by european nations to fight wars that the europeans do not want to fight, the europeans have figured out that africans and their  leaders are so st.upid that they think its okay for their troops to go and die in order to ensure that the europeans continue to be allowed to plunder africa's natural resources.

the worst part of this set up is that the europeans dont even want to use their own troops to do this dirty work , after all africans lives are worth less and therefore can be used by them to acheive their objectives.

they have been using africans like this  for almost 4 centuries and it appears many of us are yet to wake up.

true, the west fight, with computers and dropping bombs from 10,000+ miles in the sky; the answer is simple guerilla warfare - tell me the last time any western power won a guerilla war? They always loose when it comes to real war, then a new president will say the last was wrong and pull the troops out.    Its like a destructive merry go round.

The real waking up needs to be in terms of how we think and culture - we need a cultural revolution.

true, the west fight, with computers and dropping bombs from 10,000+ miles in the sky; the answer is simple guerilla warfare - tell me the last time any western power won a guerilla war? They always loose when it comes to real war, then a new president will say the last was wrong and pull the troops out.      Its like a destructive merry go round.

The real waking up needs to be in terms of how we think and culture - we need a cultural revolution. 

Its also, a good thing that the west actually cares about its troops lives. Thats why thier not putting ground troops in libya. Like what happened in somalia, the American public would never let them do that again. If there was one casualty in libya the american public would probably force the Gov, to pull out. and righty so!

France and UN attacking a military camp in Abidjan:

[flash=500,500]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bXBqyX-QkPs?fs=1&hl=en_US[/flash]

Some people has been severely injured, some killed, some had their houses and belongings destroyed

[flash=500,500]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cVenRsQig2M?fs=1&hl=en_US[/flash]

But yet you won't hear about those victims on international channels

The UN justified this attack by "their interest to protect civilians" but yet exposing the lives of these civilians that they are supposed to protect

I am disgusted and fiercely hate Ouattara and Gbagbo because both have been killing my Ivorian people, trying to divide us ethnically and religiously so they could stay or take power

And I am also disappointed in France, The US and the UN who are clearly not impartial (pro-Ouattara of course for their own interest and not for the population) and who are applauding their irresponsible actions while volunteering omitting information on the number of victims they made (while executing their military attacks) from their garbage intoxicating channels

I guess their new policy is bringing peace by making war, and I hope African leaders will awake from their foolishness and greed in order to fight for their countries instead of their own interests.

The biggest challenge won't be for Ouattara to come into power, but to be able to prone reconciliation among us, showing to his compatriots that he is not a sell-out as we thought, that he won't repeat his past actions since beginning 90's which partially contribute to our economic suffering, and try to repair all the wrong he did to the population: backing the 2002 rebellion, brainwashing northerners that people do not accept him cause he is a Muslim , and finally stop denying his dids and take responsibilities for his mistakes (at least once in his life).

Please God touch his heart in order that he work for the whole nation and not only for his people and his interests
And please makes Koudou Gbagbo go, cause we are tired!

2muchlogic:


With all due respect i think you mistook my generic answer the wrong way, management encompasses many different disciplines finance, technology, economics, warfare etc and africans have failed to manage their county's properly! 
Gadaffi did not modernize Libya - give me a break!!!! And his GDP per capita was high due to his small population of around 5 million people around 50% of the population of Lagos state and yet his country has a land mass nearly double the size of Nigeria.  Why would he have $70 billion plus, invested in the west? after 42 years ruling a country with a single language and all of those resources he has seriously under performed.  Surely, you will admit that a nation with africa's largest oil deposits coupled with one of Africa's smallest populations has been seriously mismanaged.  However it dose not give the west the right to bomb. 

How about the great man made river that he built which supplies pipeborne water to the whole of libya, he built this without borrowing a penny from the West, this river is also used to irrigate the land in order to enable libyans grow their own food instead of relying on foreign imports,  the nigerian govt cant even provided constant electricity supply despite the billions it makes from oil revenues,

most people seem to forget that libya is just recovering from 12 years of economic sanctions from the west, however as soon as the sanctions were lifted gadaffi started major infrastructure projects in the country, thats why you had so many migrant workers in libya workign on constructions sites, many of them from sub saharan countries including nigeria.

Also the average libyan has a home and a car and isnt starving, libyans had no need to leave their country to work in europe or america because they were provided for in their own country, the true indicator of how well a country is doing is by looking at the condition of its citizens, nigria is an oil rich nation but its citizens live in grim poverty the rest flee the country for a better life.  If libya was such an undeveloped place you would have had mass emigration of its people just like nigeria.

War is more than bombs, it encompasses economics, technology, information, culture, education and the simplest component weapons. Look at North Korea they have developed Nuclear weapons so why are they still suffering? The west have decided to launch an economic and information war on them instead.

Yes but thats because when the US cant get you militarily they punish you economically, North Korea has nukes therefore the US have isolated and punished them.

They are not my resources  again i will re-iterate my response above: Look at North Korea they have developed Nuclear weapons so why are they still suffering? The west have decided to launch an economic and information war on them instead. Furthermore has Pakistan not developed Nukes? Yet the USA still treat them like you know what.  Nigeria dose not have Nukes and yet its richer than Pakistan and North Korea; you see the USA spend hundreds of billions on weapons every year can these 'developing countries' match that expenditure?  If you think on another axis rather than just being reactive to all the oyinbo moves you will see the real potential of Africa.

nigeria is rich but the wealth is only enjoyed by less than 1% of its people, of what use is the wealth of a nation if the vast majority of its population are forced to live in poverty or leave the country?  in addition the nigerian govt do not even have any real say in the running of their own economy , they are forced by the UK/US to implement economic policies which benefit and enrich multinationals, foreign banks and a few nigerian elites whilst leaving the rest of the population to suffer, why cant nigeria adopt a more socialist or mixed economic policy which provides a safety net for the poor as is the case in the western nations?  The reason is because it is tied into the neo liberal economic model laid down for it by britain and america, this policy ensures that nigeria will remain a supplier of raw materials with no industrial capability, thereby condemning it to the status of a third world nation for life.

Gadaffi on the other hand was not willing to allow the west to dictate to him , in 2009 he was talking about nationalising the entire libyan oil industy thereby cutting out the western oil corporations who had a 49% stake in it  in order to have more control over oil prices in order to get a better deal for his people, this is the reason that the west have attacked him. Do you think any nigerian leader would have had the guts to demand a better deal from western oil companies operating in nigeria?  the nigerian govt are all cowards and they are running scared - they do as they are told and are merely happy to let the west do what they like in our country as long as they are able to keep skimming off the profits.

my version is that Quattara is backed and armed by the west to replace Gbagbo

true, the west fight, with computers and dropping bombs from 10,000+ miles in the sky; the answer is simple guerilla warfare - tell me the last time any western power won a guerilla war? They always loose when it comes to real war, then a new president will say the last was wrong and pull the troops out.    Its like a destructive merry go round.

The real waking up needs to be in terms of how we think and culture - we need a cultural revolution.

I agree with you Ouattara is an IMF puppet who has been forced on the ivorien people, at the moment we have our own puppet Jonathan, i wonder whether the nigerian electorate will be able to get him out though or whether PDP will do all they can to keep him there, lets wait and see.

I agree that a cultural revolution is needed in africa though.

cap28:

How about the great man made river that he built which supplies pipeborne water to the whole of libya, he built this without borrowing a penny from the West, this river is also used to irrigate the land in order to enable libyans grow their own food instead of relying on foreign imports.

You're always good for a laugh. You've held up this river before when challenged as if it's the greatest thing in the world and that it vindicates 40 years of tyranny in Libya. Maybe it escaped your notice, but the Egyptians were irrigating the desert 3000 years ago.
Interesting that you use the statement "he built this without borrowing a penny from the West" as if it's some personal achievement of Gaddafi. The planning, the labour, the money were Libyan - not his. All the "beneveloent dictator" did was give the scheme the go-ahead. You shout as if it was some sort of personal achievement of Gaddafi's that every one should worship him for.


It's also pathetic how you're now whining about UN and Western involvement in Cote D'Ivoire. A couple of weeks ago, you were continuously posting about how the West were hypocrites because they wouldn't use military force to oust Gbagbo. Now they have, you've completely changed your tune and started crying about it.

in 2009 he was talking about nationalising the entire libyan oil industy thereby cutting out the western oil corporations who had a 49% stake in it  in order to have more control over oil prices in order to get a better deal for his people

Talking about? He mentioned it once in a satellite conversation to a class of students. Then it dropped off the table forever. But let's say that he was going to nationalise it? In the conversation he had with the students, he claimed that he wanted to nationalise because oil prices were low. Since that conversation, they've climbed to record levels (long before the Libyan crisis). Are you dumb enough to think he'd still want to nationalise? And what about a little thing known as OPEC. Try reading up on it. OPEC sets the oil price. Not an individual government. Even if Gaddafi nationalised, he would not have the power to put up oil prices. Or do you think that a tyrant whose oil exports were 3 percent globally could control OPEC's monetary policy?

I love the way you say "get a better deal for his people". He's sat there with billions of dollars in international banks and with gold reserves under his personal control for 40 years and has given the Libyan people what? A river. Man, you make me laugh.

how are ya cap? 

cap28:

How about the great man made river that he built which supplies pipeborne water to the whole of libya, he built this without borrowing a penny from the West, this river is also used to irrigate the land in order to enable libyans grow their own food instead of relying on foreign imports,  the nigerian govt cant even provided constant electricity supply despite the billions it makes from oil revenues,

most people seem to forget that libya is just recovering from 12 years of economic sanctions from the west, however as soon as the sanctions were lifted gadaffi started major infrastructure projects in the country, thats why you had so many migrant workers in libya workign on constructions sites, many of them from sub saharan countries including nigeria.

These are good points the water project and constant electricity without borrowing heavily, I am not trying to knock Gadaffi as a person; to be honest I am more concerned about sub saharan Africa and the effects Libya might have on them. 

cap28:

most people seem to forget that libya is just recovering from 12 years of economic sanctions from the west, however as soon as the sanctions were lifted gadaffi started major infrastructure projects in the country, thats why you had so many migrant workers in libya workign on constructions sites, many of them from sub saharan countries including nigeria.

Can you imagine how developed libya would be if Gadaffi harnessed ALL Libyan Human resources and did not subject his country to 12 years of economic sanctions? That is bad management.  Oil to the west is like crack to a drug addict, why? because their whole infrastructure is built on oil.  The USA did have some of the largest deposits of oil before they industrialized but they have developed so much that they have exhausted those supplies, while Africa was NOT developing.  A good manager will say "they need the oil, lets sell it to them at the highest price and use the proceeds to develop" - SIMPLE!!!!!  For crying out loud, after 12 years of economic sanctions and having to pay around $7 billion dollars compensation for sponsoring terrorism had Gadaffi not learnt his lessons?

cap28:

Also the average libyan has a home and a car and isnt starving, libyans had no need to leave their country to work in europe or america because they were provided for in their own country, the true indicator of how well a country is doing is by looking at the condition of its citizens, nigria is an oil rich nation but its citizens live in grim poverty the rest flee the country for a better life.  If libya was such an undeveloped place you would have had mass emigration of its people just like nigeria.

I am not too sure about this, information was tightly controlled in Libya as we can see and GDP per capita is such an inaccurate measure of wealth invented by Oyinbos as far as I am concerned.  Thats why I want us Africans to come up with our own system that will benefit us Africans but fit in with the west.   For example Bill gates is worth something like $56 billion, but the GDP per capita of the USA is $47, 152, that means Bill Gates accounts for the productivity of 21 million Americans? 

More importantly, its obvious that africans are more spiritual than their western counterparts, how do we measure that? What impact dose spirituality have on the quality of life? Economics eliminates all these  variables and tries to simplify things inorder to promote globalization in favour of the west.  How many economic concepts have africans come up with?  This is why its pertinent to have a cultural revoultion because every action will be designed to maximize the life of ones people.  In Africa they try to practice European culture, thats why they are suffering.

cap28:

Yes but thats because when the US cant get you militarily they punish you economically, North Korea has nukes therefore the US have isolated and punished them.

Exactly, so that shows you that Africans developing Weapons are not enough!  As the Yoruba will say: “ogbon ju agbara lo” that means the intellect is more powerful than physical power (e.g nukes).

cap28:

nigeria is rich but the wealth is only enjoyed by less than 1% of its people, of what use is the wealth of a nation if the vast majority of its population are forced to live in poverty or leave the country?  in addition the nigerian govt do not even have any real say in the running of their own economy , they are forced by the UK/US to implement economic policies which benefit and enrich multinationals, foreign banks and a few nigerian elites whilst leaving the rest of the population to suffer, why cant nigeria adopt a more socialist or mixed economic policy which provides a safety net for the poor as is the case in the western nations?  The reason is because it is tied into the neo liberal economic model laid down for it by britain and america, this policy ensures that nigeria will remain a supplier of raw materials with no industrial capability, thereby condemning it to the status of a third world nation for life.

We are on the EXACT same wavelengh on this one – great response.

cap28:

Gadaffi on the other hand was not willing to allow the west to dictate to him , in 2009 he was talking about nationalising the entire libyan oil industy thereby cutting out the western oil corporations who had a 49% stake in it  in order to have more control over oil prices in order to get a better deal for his people,

I see what you mean but this is where the management needs to come into it, if he used his brain he would say:

1. if I sell the oil to the west I will get $N Billion per year
2. If I nationalize the oil industry I will get $N Billion x 4 per year
- BUT the ECONOMIC sanctions will cost $N Billion per year
- The attacks on my country will cause $N Billion of damage per year
- The REBUILDING will cost $N Billion per year
- The Phycological damage will cost $N Billion per year
-  The decrease in INVESTOR CONFIDENCE will cost $N Billion per year
3. Conclusion option 1 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

cap28:

Do you think any nigerian leader would have had the guts to demand a better deal from western oil companies operating in nigeria?

Yes! Instead of being confrontational and nationalizing the oil industry they have been using their BRAINS (which is not very often) by encouraging the private sector to buy out foreign oil companies to increase indigenous ownership and production.  Have you not heard of wale Tinubu? Have you heard of Kasse Lawal? Adenuga just bought an oil block from shell two days ago for $1.3 billion.  Harsh conditions have forced shell to embark on a divestment plan, and as long as Nigeria keeps selling to the USA at reasonable market prices there will be no problem.

http://www.thisdaylive.com/articles/adenuga-wins-shell-s-most-prolific-onshore-oil-block/88992/

But is shell exiting completely? No, but lets see how this one develops.

cap28:

the nigerian govt are all cowards and they are running scared - they do as they are told and are merely happy to let the west do what they like in our country as long as they are able to keep skimming off the profits.

I would be scared too if there was a prospect of 120 missiles a day being dropped on my country.

In all seriousness, I do not know whether to laugh or cry when it come to nigerian politics – its a mess! I agree that as long as they can profit thats it – they don't care about the environment, the people, the image of africa, NOTHING! But themselves.  Can you imagine that oil spill off the gulf of mexico occuring in Nigeria? I have read that most of the spills in Nigeria are worse and have been taking place since the 50s and what happens?  A crooked politician will take a bribe of a few million whilst the land is left damaged for generations.

But on an encouraging note, as I mentioned earlier, the divestment of shell and participation of some wealthy nigerians in the oil industry is a welcome development – time will tell if this is the way forward.

Bastage:

You're always good for a laugh. You've held up this river before when challenged as if it's the greatest thing in the world and that it vindicates 40 years of tyranny in Libya. Maybe it escaped your notice, but the Egyptians were irrigating the desert 3000 years ago.
Interesting that you use the statement "he built this without borrowing a penny from the West" as if it's some personal achievement of Gaddafi. The planning, the labour, the money were Libyan - not his. All the "beneveloent dictator" did was give the scheme the go-ahead. You shout as if it was some sort of personal achievement of Gaddafi's that every one should worship him for.


It's also pathetic how you're now whining about UN and Western involvement in Cote D'Ivoire. A couple of weeks ago, you were continuously posting about how the West were hypocrites because they wouldn't use military force to oust Gbagbo. Now they have, you've completely changed your tune and started crying about it.

Talking about? He mentioned it once in a satellite conversation to a class of students. Then it dropped off the table forever. But let's say that he was going to nationalise it? In the conversation he had with the students, he claimed that he wanted to nationalise because oil prices were low. Since that conversation, they've climbed to record levels (long before the Libyan crisis). Are you dumb enough to think he'd still want to nationalise? And what about a little thing known as OPEC. Try reading up on it. OPEC sets the oil price. Not an individual government. Even if Gaddafi nationalised, he would not have the power to put up oil prices. Or do you think that a tyrant whose oil exports were 3 percent globally could control OPEC's monetary policy?

I love the way you say "get a better deal for his people". He's sat there with billions of dollars in international banks and with gold reserves under his personal control for 40 years and has given the Libyan people what? A river. Man, you make me laugh.

It is obvious that you are mentally ill, you know why?  Only a mentally ill person would continue to track a person who has gone out of their way to ignore them all over a discussion forum.

It looks like you havent yet come to terms with the public humiliation i have continuously subjected you to on NL and this is your own weak way of trying to get your own back, how clever of you.

Well, heres the thing bas.tard no matter how hard you try, you will never have the intellectual ability to win any argument with me - you know why because you are not smart enough, smart people know when to give up, but obviously that doesnt apply to you, i enjoy intelligent debate and i will not compromise my sanity by lowering myself to engage in a debate with you because of your extreme mental limitations.

Remember a few days ago i told you that you were a niggerized african, an african who looks black on the outside but internally is consumed with self hatred and wishes for nothing more than to wake up one morning and see a white face looking back at them in the mirror , this is  why your thinking ability is upside down, you are incapable of thinking and reasoning like an intelligent black man therefore it will be foolish of me to even attempt to engage with you, as i said in my last post to you i would have a better chance of reviving a corpse than being able to awaken you from your semi conscious state.

It seems as if i have permanently damaged your fragile ego hence your desperate need to keep stalking me , however i would like to say this - and i will highlight it and put in big capital letters so that this time it sinks into your skull:


YOU HAVE NOTHING TO OFFER BY WAY OF INTELLIGENT CONVERSATION BECAUSE OF YOUR RET.ARDED MENTAL STATE, THEREFORE I ASK YOU AGAIN, STOP STALKING AND PESTERING ME I AM NOT INTERESTED IN DEBATING WITH AN ADULT MAN WHO HAS LEARNING DIFFICULTIES.

thank you

cap28

I agree with you Ouattara is an IMF puppet who has been forced on the ivorien people,

Dispite his flaws he did win the election didnt he? so he wasnt forced on the ivorien people they chose him.

Also the average libyan has a home and a car and isnt starving, libyans had no need to leave their country to work in europe or america because they were provided for in their own country, the true indicator of how well a country is doing is by looking at the condition of its citizens, nigria is an oil rich nation but its citizens live in grim poverty the rest flee the country for a better life. If libya was such an undeveloped place you would have had mass emigration of its people just like nigeria.

2muchlogic

I am not too sure about this, information was tightly controlled in Libya as we can see and GDP per capita is such an inaccurate measure of wealth invented by Oyinbos as far as I am concerned. Thats why I want us Africans to come up with our own system that will benefit us Africans but fit in with the west. For example Bill gates is worth something like $56 billion, but the GDP per capita of the USA is $47, 152, that means Bill Gates accounts for the productivity of 21 million Americans?

haha sorry to 'but in' on your convo, but you dont have need to only look at the per capita GDP to see the standard of living. look at things like the life expectancy which is 74 in libya. In delevloped countries (libya is considered developed) they calculate this with actual hospital records, so its fairly acurate. The fact that libya is considered developed and the life expectany is 74 is enough to indicate that the standard of living is fairly high.

Bastage:

You're always good for a laugh. You've held up this river before when challenged as if it's the greatest thing in the world and that it vindicates 40 years of tyranny in Libya. Maybe it escaped your notice, but the Egyptians were irrigating the desert 3000 years ago.
Interesting that you use the statement "he built this without borrowing a penny from the West" as if it's some personal achievement of Gaddafi. The planning, the labour, the money were Libyan - not his. All the "beneveloent dictator" did was give the scheme the go-ahead. You shout as if it was some sort of personal achievement of Gaddafi's that every one should worship him for.

i said that i wouldnt respond to you but i just cant resist making you look like the re.tard that you are, you accuse gadaffi of tyranny - would you have preferred that the libyans remain under fascist  italian colonial rule which is basically how it was ruled up until 1947 in which the occupying italians forced libyans to give up their identity and culture in order to be assimiliated by italy.  would that have been your idea of freedom and democracy?

Or would you have preferred the monarchical system which followed under the british puppet - king idris who preferred to serve the interests of the british rather than the interests of the libyan people?
i know you have no appreciation of nationhood ,therefore this point is very likely to go over that your big empty head.

do you understand what tyranny means?  or do you just use the word because you think it makes you sound intelligent?

Libya is actually a socialist state that is why it refers to its self as the Libyan jamahiriya - jamahiriya meaning state of the masses or govt of the people.  Libya is run by groups of council's and committees, gadaffi does not actually have absolute power - he rules through these various committees, the reason that he is so visible is because he is the spiritual leader of the revolution which ushered him into power 42 years ago, he is seen as a symbol of strenghth, courage and nationalism by his people, this is somethign which you cant relate to because  you are a man with no cutural affinities who stands for nothign and falls for everything.
If he wwere such a tyrant why is he building roads, hospitals, housing, why are his people well fed and educated, why are women allowed to go to school and get a decent education, why are libyan women the most educated arab women in the middle east - dumbo answer those questions.

If he were such a tyrant why is libya's Human development index the highest in africa, higher than in your own country which is a supposed democracy?  Why werent libyans leaving libya in droves to look for a better life in europe like nigerians?  

The fact that this supposed dictator could provide his people with a higher standard of living than your own democratic nigerian leaders, makes you look like the complete fool that you are, are you not ashamed to keep bleating on about libya being ruled by a tyrant when you cant even afford to live in your own country?  

It's also pathetic how you're now whining about UN and Western involvement in Cote D'Ivoire. A couple of weeks ago, you were continuously posting about how the West were hypocrites because they wouldn't use military force to oust Gbagbo. Now they have, you've completely changed your tune and started crying about it.

If you had a working brain you would have understood that my complaint against the UN was about their failure to intervene in Ivory Coast in order to prvent the unecessary killing of thousands of civilians that were being mowed down by Ouattara's thugs -at no point did i advocate that the UN should intervene to remove Gbagbo - only an unadulterated dunce like yourself would recommend external military intervention in order to remove the head of a soveriegn nation.
the UN charter explicity states that UN member states are not permitted to intervene or interfere with the internal politics of member states but again these are facts that re.tards like yourself are not familiar with.  

Talking about? He mentioned it once in a satellite conversation to a class of students. Then it dropped off the table forever. But let's say that he was going to nationalise it? In the conversation he had with the students, he claimed that he wanted to nationalise because oil prices were low. Since that conversation, they've climbed to record levels (long before the Libyan crisis). Are you dumb enough to think he'd still want to nationalise? And what about a little thing known as OPEC. Try reading up on it. OPEC sets the oil price. Not an individual government. Even if Gaddafi nationalised, he would not have the power to put up oil prices. Or do you think that a tyrant whose oil exports were 3 percent globally could control OPEC's monetary policy?

More gross stupi.dity from an A class dunce - so you think the foreign press would get jittery over a conversation he had with a class of students without first confirming whether or not this was his official position? dumbo he was making an official statement which is confirmed in the reuters article.

Also at the time that gadaffi made that statement crude oil prices were very low at $44 a barrell, a third of what they were in 2008 ($148 per barrel)  this is why he was talking about nationalising the oil sector.

the reason that theyve  started climbing is because HE CUT PRODCUTION on 1 January 2009 BY  270,000 barrells, in doing so HE caused prices to go up, in your dazed and confused state you cant even understand this basic concept.

It is because of Gadaffi's unwillingness to be bullied into accepting $44 per barrell for his sweet crude oil that prices have been on the rise however they are nowhere near the levels that they were in mid  2008 therefore i have no idea how you came to the conclusion that they have reached "record levels".

I love the way you say "get a better deal for his people". He's sat there with billions of dollars in international banks and with gold reserves under his personal control for 40 years and has given the Libyan people what? A river. Man, you make me laugh.

No dumbo he gave his people, constant electricity, running water, well maintained roads, affordable food, and the highest human development index in africa, which by the way is higher than that of nigeria - so high that unlike you his people didnt have to leave their own country in order to make ends meet,  am i getting through to you now?

cap28:

Only a mentally ill person would continue to track a person who has gone out of their way to ignore them all over a discussion forum.

It looks like you havent yet come to terms with the public humiliation i have continuously subjected you to on NL and this is your own weak way of trying to get your own back, how clever of you.

Don't flatter yourself mugu. I'm not tracking you. Merely answering lies and hypocrisy.

As for subjecting me to "public humiliation"? Just how and where have you managed that? Whenever I reply to your tedious whining, pointing out the fabrications and fantasies that you spout, you just whine, accusing me of being a nigger or mentally challenged. That's not humiliating anyone but yourself. All you've done is prove that you have no answer, just as you've proven it yet again in this thread.

When you do come out with answers, they're illogical and breath-takingly silly. For example, just what the hell has Italian colonialism over 70 years ago got to do with Gaddafi's rule today? You use historic colonialism to justify Gaddafi's power? That's so tenuous an argument as to be non-existent. By your logic there, we should all embrace Jonathon because Nigeria was run by the British!! Yet you say that Jonathon should be ousted. Yet again, you're caught in total and utter contradiction.
After your first sentence, I didn't even bother reading the rest of your drivel. I'm sure it contains the same sort of illogical, ridiculous trash though.
Your foolishness knows no bounds.

2muchlogic:

   how are ya cap? 

my brother im well thanks

These are good points the water project and constant electricity without borrowing heavily, I am not trying to knock Gadaffi as a person; to be honest I am more concerned about sub saharan Africa and the effects Libya might have on them. 

Can you imagine how developed libya would be if Gadaffi harnessed ALL Libyan Human resources and did not subject his country to 12 years of economic sanctions? That is bad management.  Oil to the west is like crack to a drug addict, why? because their whole infrastructure is built on oil.  The USA did have some of the largest deposits of oil before they industrialized but they have developed so much that they have exhausted those supplies, while Africa was NOT developing.  A good manager will say "they need the oil, lets sell it to them at the highest price and use the proceeds to develop" - SIMPLE!!!!!  For crying out loud, after 12 years of economic sanctions and having to pay around $7 billion dollars compensation for sponsoring terrorism had Gadaffi not learnt his lessons?

bro, lets just clarify one thing here, Gadaffi did nothing to deserve the economic sanctions that were imposed on libya, Gadaffi is the victim here.  Lets talk about lockerbie, have you researched the evidence on this case?  Are  you aware that there IS NO CONCLUSIVE EVIDENCE IMPLICATING LIBYA ON LOCKERBIE, okay i know what you're thinking, why did gadaffi then pay £2.7 billion in compensation to the relatives of the victims - i will tell you why, because the economic sanctions imposed on his nation were crippling them and in a bid to develop his nation and move it into the 21st century he decide to pay his way back into the international community, bro if you only know the half of who this international community is and what they are capable of you would pity gadaffi, im telling you.  Okay so gadaffi, pays the £2.7billion, he is then welcomed back into the "international community" and alllowed to resume the sale of his light sweet crude, he now starts opening up the country to foreign investment, he lets the chinese and americans in , he lets the russians in, he lets the british, french and italians in to take on various crude oil and infrstructure projects - he then agrees to hand over his nuclear capabilities -  is that the behaviour of an unhinged deranged megalomaniac?
In my opinion - the biggest mistake he ever made was dismantling his nuclear capabilities, to be honest with you this man has been betrayed by the west , how is it that in a space of 3 months this man has gone from being business partner and friend to public enemy number one, do you knw that this man's son donated millions of pounds to the london school of economics (an elite higher institution in london) and financed sarkozy's (french prime minister) election  campaign - please im sick of the stinking hypocrisy of these demons - lets open our eyes and stop being fools for christsakes!!!!

If you check the deeds of this man you will find that he most definitely has the interest of his people at heart.

I am not too sure about this, information was tightly controlled in Libya as we can see and GDP per capita is such an inaccurate measure of wealth invented by Oyinbos as far as I am concerned.  Thats why I want us Africans to come up with our own system that will benefit us Africans but fit in with the west.   For example Bill gates is worth something like $56 billion, but the GDP per capita of the USA is $47, 152, that means Bill Gates accounts for the productivity of 21 million Americans?

okay dont look at GDP, look at these so called rebels, look at the smooth roads they drive back and forth on on therir way to wage war on gadaffi and his troops,  look at the faces of the libyan  people , are they filled with despair, hunger and misery?  I am sick to my stomach of the western media and their lies, the truth of the matter is that  this is a neo colonial war for the appropriation of libya's oil - end of story, its also a war for expansion and further geo political control over the middle east - lets stop pus.sy footing around this issue.

more importantly, its obvious that africans are more spiritual than their western counterparts, how do we measure that? What impact dose spirituality have on the quality of life? Economics eliminates all these  variables and tries to simplify things inorder to promote globalization in favour of the west.  How many economic concepts have africans come up with?  This is why its pertinent to have a cultural revoultion because every action will be designed to maximize the life of ones people.  In Africa they try to practice European culture, thats why they are suffering.

i agree, but as long as you have puppets like jonathan, obasanjo and other traitors at the helm of affairs we will continue to suffer, these people are neo colonial agents - in order to move forward we must remove them.

Exactly, so that shows you that Africans developing Weapons are not enough!  As the Yoruba will say: “ogbon ju agbara lo” that means the intellect is more powerful than physical power (e.g nukes).

We are on the EXACT same wavelengh on this one – great response.

I see what you mean but this is where the management needs to come into it, if he used his brain he would say:

1. if I sell the oil to the west I will get $N Billion per year
2. If I nationalize the oil industry I will get $N Billion x 4 per year
- BUT the ECONOMIC sanctions will cost $N Billion per year
- The attacks on my country will cause $N Billion of damage per year
- The REBUILDING will cost $N Billion per year
- The Phycological damage will cost $N Billion per year
-  The decrease in INVESTOR CONFIDENCE will cost $N Billion per year
3. Conclusion option 1 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Its not that simple, the western neo liberal economic model doesnt not tolerate deviation in any form, no matter how minute, read about how america destroyed all left leaning socialists regimes in nicaragua, ecuador, guatemala, grenada, the leaders of these countries wanted a ssytem which was more socialist and equitable and could provide a safety net for the poor but they were all subjected to coup detats or military interventions all orchestrated by the US/UK .  Gadaffi's crime is that he cut oil production in order to make oil prices go up, the west were outraged by this, they wanted him to behave like the other OPEC nations and just take what he was given for his oil.

Yes! Instead of being confrontational and nationalizing the oil industry they have been using their BRAINS (which is not very often) by encouraging the private sector to buy out foreign oil companies to increase indigenous ownership and production.  Have you not heard of wale Tinubu? Have you heard of Kasse Lawal? Adenuga just bought an oil block from shell two days ago for $1.3 billion.  Harsh conditions have forced shell to embark on a divestment plan, and as long as Nigeria keeps selling to the USA at reasonable market prices there will be no problem.

http://www.thisdaylive.com/articles/adenuga-wins-shell-s-most-prolific-onshore-oil-block/88992/

But is shell exiting completely? No, but lets see how this one develops.

I would be scared too if there was a prospect of 120 missiles a day being dropped on my country.

i regard the likes of Tinubu, Adenuga and Lawal as profitteers of a corrupt system,will their actions lead to job creation or allevation of poverty among the teeming masses of unemployed youths in nigeria,? No, these people will merely pocket their huge windfalls and continue to exploit the masses of poverty stricken nigerians, they are part of the problem.

In all seriousness, I do not know whether to laugh or cry when it come to nigerian politics – its a mess! I agree that as long as they can profit thats it – they don't care about the environment, the people, the image of africa, NOTHING! But themselves.  Can you imagine that oil spill off the gulf of mexico occuring in Nigeria? I have read that most of the spills in Nigeria are worse and have been taking place since the 50s and what happens?  A crooked politician will take a bribe of a few million whilst the land is left damaged for generations.

But on an encouraging note, as I mentioned earlier, the divestment of shell and participation of some wealthy nigerians in the oil industry is a welcome development – time will tell if this is the way forward.

i dont think unlimited privatisation is the answer, because you are simply placing economic control back into the hands of people who are only interested in making money at the expense of the masses , we need a mixed economy, where the public sector retains control over major sectors such as the oil industry, agriculture, manufacturing, health and education with limited access to the financial industry,  i think that is the way forward.

cap28:


my brother im well thanks

good 

cap28:


bro, lets just clarify one thing here, Gadaffi did nothing to deserve the economic sanctions that were imposed on libya, Gadaffi is the victim here.  Lets talk about lockerbie, have you researched the evidence on this case? 

yes

cap28:

Are  you aware that there IS NO CONCLUSIVE EVIDENCE IMPLICATING LIBYA ON LOCKERBIE,

It depends on who you listen to.

cap28:

okay i know what you're thinking, why did gadaffi then pay £2.7 billion in compensation to the relatives of the victims

I was not thinking about that at all – after a 12 year slog he was shunned by the west who were afraid and unaware of his chemical weapons program.  When he realized he could not win , he decided to be prudent and sent his son Saif (then an LSE student) to negotiate a settlement.   

cap28:

i will tell you why, because the economic sanctions imposed on his nation were crippling them and in a bid to develop his nation and move it into the 21st century he decide to pay his way back into the international community,

I knew that, he made a song and dance about it because his pride was hurt.

cap28:

bro if you only know the half of who this international community is and what they are capable of you would pity gadaffi, im telling you. 

to the contrary, you are the one underestimating their capabilities, if not why suggest that africans start deveoping weapons? That would be the perfect excuse for the west to: “Prevent the proliferation of Arms in sub saharan africa” - shock and awe, here we go again, 130 missiles a day, carnage, chaos , 

cap28:

Okay so gadaffi, pays the £2.7billion, he is then welcomed back into the "international community" and alllowed to resume the sale of his light sweet crude, he now starts opening up the country to foreign investment, he lets the chinese and americans in , he lets the russians in, he lets the british, french and italians in to take on various crude oil and infrstructure projects - he then agrees to hand over his nuclear capabilities -  is that the behaviour of an unhinged deranged megalomaniac?

Yes, why did he not do it 12 years before? Remember these guys don't forget, he had to be made an example of to prevent him from doing it again.  All that was needed was enough intelligence and an excuse.  He gave them the first requirement – sacrificed his weapons program, the second one was an arab revolution and gbam! Checkmate.

cap28:

In my opinion - the biggest mistake he ever made was dismantling his nuclear capabilities, to be honest with you this man has been betrayed by the west , how is it that in a space of 3 months this man has gone from being business partner and friend to public enemy number one,

I have mentioned this above

cap28:

do you knw that this man's son donated millions of pounds to the london school of economics (an elite higher institution in london) and financed sarkozy's (french prime minister) election  campaign

No point in trying to kick a.sz then try to lick as.z, why not develop his own universities? He was inconsistent and paid the price. Thats how they operate so why get mad? One minute he sponsors and trains terrorists to KILL them next he sponsors their higher education with millions of dollars? Thats ridiculous!  They didnt need his money, LSE charges around £15,000 ($25,000) PER TERM and gives mostly, rich kids from around the world a first class EUROCENTRIC education – they charge £75 per application and only accept less than 10% of the applicants LOL! Its like a national lottery.

The saudis have more oil, they simply sell it to the oyinbos and develop their country as much as they can.  But more importantly they are better managed.  For example they buy hundreds of billions of dollars worth of arms from BOTH the USA and the UK simultaneously - it creates thousands of JOBs in the west, the saudis also invest hundreds of billions in the USA and UK stock markets.  As a result the US turn a blind eye to what they do and both parties live in harmony.  If the saudis pull their investments out of the USA it would cause serious econiomic damage to the US - they have learnt the game. When Saudi citzens tried to copy other arab uprisings what did they do? They dished out BILLIONs to the people, whatb did Gaddaffi do with the $70 billion he had invested in the west and tonnes of GOLD? He shot them, LOL!     Where did all the 9/11 hijackers come from? Why did the US not harm the Bin laden family living in the USA when 9/11 occurred?  Money talks and monkeys walk – learn the game. 

Gaddaffi was marked for death back in the 80s, all they were waiting for was an excuse to take him out – did he not know that? If you don't know the rules then don't play!!!  The nigerian politicians understand the game too, they are not as dumb as you think.  They give the west all the oil they need to keep them honest, but if they make one false move e.g nationalization, demand for more multi-national accountability – oops! Shock and awe time!  Look at MKOs death, was it not a US doctor who said he died of natural causes? LOL!!!!

cap28:

okay dont look at GDP, look at these so called rebels, look at the smooth roads they drive back and forth on on therir way to wage war on gadaffi and his troops,  look at the faces of the libyan  people , are they filled with despair, hunger and misery?  I am sick to my stomach of the western media and their lies,

Why do you watch it? Do you know what the word media means? do some research.  But try to be a filter rather than a sponge when you watch WESTERN news coverage – they have to protect their interests and africans should learn to protect theirs CLEVERLY, not heir masters interests.

cap28:

the truth of the matter is that  this is a neo colonial war for the appropriation of libya's oil - end of story, its also a war for expansion and further geo political control over the middle east - lets stop pus.sy footing around this issue.

“You try kitty footing around with size 12 feet – it not fun you know” 

Right, lets call it a day on Mummar, You believe he is a good leader that is being treated unfairly by the West.  I believe he is a clever Local libyan Soldier who has mastered the art of Libyan leadership but has woeful global economic management skills and a reckless, inconsistent, naïve attitude towards the west.  END OF THE STORY, plaese lets leave it there.

cap28:

i agree, but as long as you have puppets like jonathan, obasanjo and other traitors at the helm of affairs we will continue to suffer, these people are neo colonial agents - in order to move forward we must remove them.

looks like your wish is coming true.

cap28:

Its not that simple, the western neo liberal economic model doesnt not tolerate deviation in any form, no matter how minute, read about how america destroyed all left leaning socialists regimes in nicaragua, ecuador, guatemala, grenada, the leaders of these countries wanted a ssytem which was more socialist and equitable and could provide a safety net for the poor but they were all subjected to coup detats or military interventions all orchestrated by the US/UK . 

The west are protecting their interests  - you cannot blame them for that.  They will continue to do so no matter how much you moan; its more productive to focus on ones strengths and develop them.  Dose the nigerian government or private sector of nigeria invest in education? Health? Culture? Technolgy? For example South Koreans invented flat screen technolgy, now its a $50 billion plus market, is it a coincidence that they have the highest mathematics literacy rate in the world? Are you telling me Africans cannot do the same?

cap28:

they wanted him to behave like the other OPEC nations and just take what he was given for his oil.

I do not think you have studied oil in depth, that is not true, in a nutshell you have to understand that most OPEC nations have invested their foreign reserves in the west.  If the price of oil goes up then this may have a detrimental effect on western economies growth which in turn will lead to a fall in the returns on their investment.  Furthermore, some countries have to import their own oil as fuel, hence its not ALWAYS in their best interest to preside over rising oil prices. 

Look cap – why is Africa depending on raw materials and ignoring its gretest assets HUMAN RESOURCES? What did they depend on before Europeans developed an addiction for their resources? All thats needed is a transparent, non-politicised sytem to manage African resources with qualified PROFESSIONALS at the helm; whilst the government focuses on promoting productivity.

cap28:


i regard the likes of Tinubu, Adenuga and Lawal as profitteers of a corrupt system,will their actions lead to job creation or allevation of poverty among the teeming masses of unemployed youths in nigeria,? No, these people will merely pocket their huge windfalls and continue to exploit the masses of poverty stricken nigerians, they are part of the problem.

What dose Bill gates do? What dose Larry Ellison do? What dose Donald trump do? What dose Phillip Green do? Has it stopped their respective countries from developing? The west is now encouraging entrepreneurs right left and center, due to the fact thet they believe this is the only way out of the current recession.  Entrepreneurs have the sole aim of maximizing their profits, its simple and plain.  The kind of policy your envision will increase poverty in Africa and drive all the talent elsewhere.

Do you know how many people these nigerian Billionares employ? Employment will generate tax revenue, which can then be utilized by the government for its fiscal policies. India, china and Russia produced hundreds of billionaires last year, we need more billionaires in africa who score high on ethics and are encouraged to share social responsibilities to make us develop – if you are looking for 'socialist saints', you are wasting your time.  Capitalism is the best economic system we have at present, the government should focus on creating an enabling environment and make sure citizens are cared for from "cradle to their grave".

cap28:

i dont think unlimited privatisation is the answer,

Neither do I, all economies are mixed anyway; there is no such thing as unlimited privatisation due to the existence of public goods.