bigfrancis21: You still don't get. She claimed you people were too mixed for DNA testing to locate each specific tribe in your ancestry, in her bid to discredit the DNA testing that has recorded enormous success in fields such as paternity cases and murder cases.

What you just described above can also be attributed to the people of Africa, Europe and even India. In those places, when you go 14 generations back you'll get 16,384 different people with possible different ethnicities.

After she then modified it to claim that DNA testing CANNOT go beyond 5 generations back while the same testing has successfully been able to go 10 generations back or more down to the very first ancestor.

Finally, africa has a thousand more tribes than the select few, say 20 or 30, that were shipped to America and a lot of inter tribal marriages occur everyday. If you're talking about people who are mixed with excessive ancestries more than ever, you are likely to find them in Africa. So I don't see why that of AAs/Caribs should be so unique anyway. [b]If AAs/Caribbean peeps had kept their tribal affiliations all these while like Africans do, identity crises like this would not have been there and there would practically have been no need for DNA testing.

[/b]Take a look around you. You are unlikely to find somebody who is 100% pure of only onee ancestry. In Europe, Asia etc. Even within a tribe in Africa. Even some whites were shocked to have native american, and even African ancestries pop up in their DNA testing on their maternal sides and autosomally yet today they are whites. Europeans tend to have so many ancestries in their DNA. Its common to find an English man with Italian, german, french, spanish ancestries. Yet at the end of the day he's an English man.

Nobody is reputing the fact that people around the world are likely to be more mixed than ever. However, paternal ancestry still remains the most important because at the end of the day, your fatherland is where you belong and where you have the most rights.

Little wonder when Blair Underwood was interviewed concerning his ancestry, despite having 3 ancestries(Igbo, Yoruba and Bamoun), he went on to specifically mention Igbo exclusively(Igbo being his paternal line).

At the end of the day where would you yourself properly belong to and have more rights, in Barbados(your maternal land) or Jamaica(your paternal land)?

Bigfrancis21 You have made some very valid points especially about African Americans not knowing truly who they are. But what you must realise is that they did not just simply CHOOSE discard TRIBAL TIES. Slave masters were very afraid when Africans slave spoke their Mother tongue. They feared the slaves were planning rebellions. This is how language and culture gradually become lost over time.

So if any slaves were caught speaking African languages them would be severely punished.

Memoirs in Jamaica written by Slave masters and other whites record some these punishments.

One punishment would be to pickle slaves in Vinegar and hot peppers.



Mae Jemison an African American Astronaut also carried out a DNA test which concluded that it could not trace her ancestry to any specific African tribe and could only tell her shall was of West African Ancestry.

This is simply because there must have been too much genetic crossover from different tribes in her Ancestry

So like I said before there is truth to what Kalis is saying regarding this issue.

Slaves also did not have time do sit children down and teach them their Tribal Heratige. These people were truly in bondage.
It is not because we don't want to be African.

Consider yourself lucky that you have you culture and language intact.



Also it is my Father who is from Barbados and my Mother who is Jamaican.

Where do I see myself?

Well I would have to say I feel connected to them both of the Islands.

Also both Islands generally were supplied with the same African Ethnicities so I do not feel as if I am Half of one thing and half of the other.

Jayvarley:


Bigfrancis21 You have made some very valid points especially about African Americans not knowing truly who they are. But what you must realise is that they did not just simply CHOOSE discard TRIBAL TIES. Slave masters were very afraid when Africans slave spoke their Mother tongue. They feared the slaves were planning rebellions. This is how language and culture gradually become lost over time.

So if any slaves were caught speaking African languages them would be severely punished.

Memoirs in Jamaica written by Slave masters and other whites record some these punishments.

One punishment would be to pickle slaves in Vinegar and hot peppers.



Mae Jemison an African American Astronaut also carried out a DNA test which concluded that it could not trace her ancestry to any specific African tribe and could only tell her shall was of West African Ancestry.

This is simply because there must have been too much genetic crossover from different tribes in her Ancestry

So like I said before there is truth to what Kalis is saying regarding this issue.

Slaves also did not have time do sit children down and teach them their Tribal Heratige. These people were truly in bondage.
It is not because we don't want to be African.

Consider yourself lucky that you have you culture and language intact.



Also it is my Father who is from Barbados and my Mother who is Jamaican.

Where do I see myself?

Well I would have to say I feel connected to them both of the Islands.

Also both Islands generally were supplied with the same African Ethnicities so I do not feel as if I am Half of one thing and half of the other.

@Bold...the result was her autosomal result which turned up 100% West African as you can see in the image below. Autosomal testing is different from more specific Y DNA or Mt DNA testings that point to specific tribes. Autosomal(44 chromosomes) testing only shows the regional ancestry in percentages that you have, like in the case of Mark Shriver. It is not a specific testing. One who wants specific results do the Y DNA and Mt DNA tests.

Moreover, you keep mentioning genetic crossover. Do you know what that term means?

My understanding is that when two populations inhabit a particular area soon enough there will be people who mix with each other.

So for instance a Jamaican Igbo will not be as pure as a Nigerian Igbo and may have features from other ethnicities or races.


Yet I would never deny the great influence the IGBO had on Jamaican linguistics.

On a video by Dr Kittles on Youtube they did conduct a Mt DNA test on Mae Jemison and could not specify her tribal origins.

The same thing is happening to many other African Americans!

Everything is not as clear cut as you may like it to be.



If you research on a convicted rapist by the name of Delroy Grant who offended between 1992 and 2009.

At one of his crimes he left DNA behind and this was sent to the US to analysed.
The geneticist's concluded he was of Caribbean extraction and they felt that we was from one of the Windward islands.


Though Grant was from Jamaica the Geneticists were not far off. The were correct in the fact he was Caribbean.
He was not mistaken genetically for a native African. This tells us that there is something unique in the DNA of Caribbean people,
which has experienced changes, mutations and admixture since the time we were in Africa.

If they couldn't pinpoint a specific tribe on her Mt DNA test, what about the Y DNA test? Or you just concluded that because her Mt DNA test wasn't conclusive then all other tests would be inconclusive?

What about her paternal side?

Moreover you just don't assume that because her own case was different 'so are many other african americans'. You'll have to come up with substantial evidence. This is the problem I have with people who just assume and generalize without verification or coming up with evidence.

You talked about Jamaican Igbo as being different from Nigeria Igbo due to mixing. In Igboland, there are quite some Igbo families who had the man marry foreign(philistine, swiss, european, american, and even AA) wives. Clearly, these foreign people have introduced non-african genes to the new generation descendants for live. Yet, their descendants identify as Igbo, bear Igbo names and speak Igbo. I had 2 as neighbours in my apartment housing in the university and I could even drop their pictures here on nairaland, though I won't do that because I consider that to be intrusion of their privacy.

Now in, 3 generations to come, their descendants must have had genetic admixtures similar to Jamaican Igbo. Now tell me, what makes them any different from Jamaican Igbo?

I'll tell you a story about DNA mixture and Identity affiliations.

I have a Igbo friend, Chukwuka with Brown as surname which is rare surname to have in Igboland as Igbo people rarely have foreign surnames. He was a coursemate in college. He told me the history of his foreign surname. His great grandfather, Mr. Brown, was a white man from switzerland who happened to come to Igboland for some purpose which I have forgotten. The man took an Igbo wife from Anambra state and they had a first-generation set of half castes who spoke Igbo and smattering of Swiss. Half-castes in Nigeria are mixed race people who are easily known by their lighter-than-average lightskins and foreign body features. One of the half-caste sons on growing later married an Igbo woman from the same Anambra state(village) to give birth to the second-generation quarter castes, including my friend's father. These second-generation quarter castes are my friend's paternal uncles and aunts. My friend told me that all but one of his quarter cast uncles and aunts were all fully black in complexion and none could speak Swiss, but they all speak fluent Igbo. He said the remaining one despite being considerably darkened in skin tone(compared to the first generation) and lighter than his siblings(second-generation) has some body features that indicate that he indeed had some foreign blood in him.

His quarter-caste father, who is black, then further married his mother from the same Anambra state to give birth to Chukwuka and his siblings(third generation) who have full black features and all speak Igbo. They live in Enugu. I've seen his siblings and they look authentically African with no feature that indicates foreign blood. And so it continues till other generations. The only thing reminiscent of their Swiss ancestry is their name. If any male in the Brown family were to perform the Y DNA test, the result would point to a European(Swiss) ancestry. The Brown family currently identify as Igbo people, since they have more than 90% Igbo blood and 5% swiss blood(Y DNA).

Jayvarley:
My understanding is that when two populations inhabit a particular area soon enough there will be people who mix with each other.

So for instance a Jamaican Igbo will not be as pure as a Nigerian Igbo and may have features from other ethnicities or races.


Yet I would never deny the great influence the IGBO had on Jamaican linguistics.

On a video by Dr Kittles on Youtube they did conduct a Mt DNA test on Mae Jemison and could not specify her tribal origins.

The same thing is happening to many other African Americans!

Everything is not as clear cut as you may like it to be.



If you research on a convicted rapist by the name of Delroy Grant who offended between 1992 and 2009.

At one of his crimes he left DNA behind and this was sent to the US to analysed.

The geneticist's concluded he was of Caribbean extraction and they felt that we was from one of the Windward islands.


Though Grant was from Jamaica the Geneticists were not far off. The were correct in the fact he was Caribbean.
He was not mistaken genetically for a native African.

This tells us that there is something unique in the DNA of Caribbean people, which has experienced changes, mutations and admixture since the time we were in Africa.

Thats true. In fact when you do dna testing to see the races you have in you, caribbean ppl have their own category.

I think eventually we will end up kind of like the e1b1b africans who have subgroups such as e1b1b1b.....we will probably be like e1b1a1a/b or something lol but we will definitely have our own classification one day in the future for sure.

Its interesting. Plus caribbean ppl are not pure anything what so ever, again we are a mix of several african groups plus add that to the race mixing that goes on.

Good job jay.

@Jayvarley

I forgot to mention that while a man can perform both the Y DNA(Y DNA being a man he is) and Mt DNA(which everybody inherits exclusively from their mothers) tests, females CANNOT perform the Y DNA tests since they don't have the Y chromosome(which determines maleness). They are naturally handicapped in this aspect though they can perform the Mt DNA test(since both males and females inherit this from their mothers).

To determine their paternal ancestry, females will have to bring a male relative from her father's side, her brother, father, paternal uncle etc to do the test.

Dr. Mae Johnson cannot determine her paternal ancestry from just her Mt DNA alone. She'll have to get a male relative from her father's side, not her husband's family, to do the test. Surprisingly, her male ancestry could point to Europe given that certain white slave masters fathered children by black mothers.

Oprah Winfrey's test results was Mt DNA results(maternal). She's yet to perform her paternal ancestry test.

Talking about pure ancestry, there is no pure African tribe because of the constant and pervasive inter-tribal marriages that occur between tribes everyday.

At the end of the day, Africans affiliate with their paternal tribes to preserve and sustain their identities because that's the most important ancestry. Paternal ancestry affiliation is also the same norm found in Europe and South America.
Failing to do that will lead to an identity chaos which Caribbean and AA folks have found themselves in, who claim to have been too mixed to have a tribal identity. Instead they stick to country affiliations. If suddenly, country boundaries are broken down, what identity will those who call themselves Jamaicans, Bajans, Cubans cling to?

I was taught in Philosophy classes that one without an identity is lost.

This was the same point Pagan 9Ja was making when he was talking about Africans having tribes and AAs/Carib folks having no tribes.

Let me give an example of a lack of tribal identity which some people are unconsciously promoting.

Akpan Udo
Racial Identity: African/Black
National identity: Nigerian
Tribal Identity: Ibibio

Wilma Mankiller
Racial Identity: Red Indian
National Indentity: American
Tribal Identity: Mestizo

Bill Thorpe
Racial Identity: Red Indian
National Identity: American
Tribal Identity: Navajo

Marcus Smith
Racial Identity: Black
National Identity: Jamaican
Tribal Identity:


DNA tests have offered to fill in the blank tribal identity space for AAs and Caribbean folks and has been doing that successfully. Yet some people have flatly chosen to open their eyes to the truth.

Jayvarley:
My understanding is that when two populations inhabit a particular area soon enough there will be people who mix with each other.

So for instance a Jamaican Igbo will not be as pure as a Nigerian Igbo and may have features from other ethnicities or races.


Yet I would never deny the great influence the IGBO had on Jamaican linguistics.

On a video by Dr Kittles on Youtube they did conduct a Mt DNA test on Mae Jemison and could not specify her tribal origins.

The same thing is happening to many other African Americans!

Everything is not as clear cut as you may like it to be.



If you research on a convicted rapist by the name of Delroy Grant who offended between 1992 and 2009.

At one of his crimes he left DNA behind and this was sent to the US to analysed.
The geneticist's concluded he was of Caribbean extraction and they felt that we was from one of the Windward islands.


Though Grant was from Jamaica the Geneticists were not far off. The were correct in the fact he was Caribbean.
He was not mistaken genetically for a native African. This tells us that there is something unique in the DNA of Caribbean people,
which has experienced changes, mutations and admixture since the time we were in Africa.

@Bold...you're still supporting what I have said before that autosomal(44 chromosomes) DNA testing points to one's regional ancestry in percentage. Sure there will be a unique Caribbean genetic marker that has evolved from over the years just the same way you have west african, central african native american, and european genetic markers. This unique Caribbean genetic marker will be present in the 44 autosomal chromosomes for it is right here among these 44 chromosomes that genetic crossover(called chromosomal crossover actually) takes place mainly. The Y DNA, by and large, remains
unaffected by genetic crossover and it is transferred directly from grandfather, to father, to son and in most cases points to one ancestry. The Mt DNA may undergo chromosomal crossover but to a much lesser extent than the 44 Autosomes.

The DNA test performed on the rapist you're talking about was autosomal. For the umpteenth time, autosomal DNA testing isn't tribe specific. It doesn't point to a single tribe but rather to the region where the individual's recent ancestors have been residing in. Y DNA and Mt DNA testings are what determine specifically one's tribe. That doesn't mean Delroy Grant can't determine his paternal or maternal ancestry. If he wanted to then he'd submit specifically Y DNA and Mt DNA samples to locate his ancestral tribes.

Look at the Autosomal(44 chromosomes) performed on Mark Shriver, for example, which I provided the snapshot image on the previous page. The result only showed his regional ancestries which were European, Native American and West African. What it meant was that all his ancestors may have come from those regions. To further determine specifically the exact tribes within the regions indicated in Autosomal DNA testing where Mark's earliest ancestors originated from the Y DNA and Mt DNA(which African Ancestry.com called specific) will have to be performed.




I've come to the conclusion that genetics is a very complex subject for many to fully understand after all.

Jayvarley: ---

bor i am updating kidstranglehold's kongo kingdom thread.
feel free to check it out. and if you can add to it that would be most appreciated!

bigfrancis21: If they couldn't pinpoint a specific tribe on her Mt DNA test, what about the Y DNA test? Or you just concluded that because her Mt DNA test wasn't conclusive then all other tests would be inconclusive?

What about her paternal side?

Moreover you just don't assume that because her own case was different 'so are many other african americans'. You'll have to come up with substantial evidence. This is the problem I have with people who just assume and generalize without verification or coming up with evidence.

You talked about Jamaican Igbo as being different from Nigeria Igbo due to mixing. In Igboland, there are quite some Igbo families who had the man marry foreign(philistine, swiss, european, american, and even AA) wives. Clearly, these foreign people have introduced non-african genes to the new generation descendants for live. Yet, their descendants identify as Igbo, bear Igbo names and speak Igbo. I had 2 as neighbours in my apartment housing in the university and I could even drop their pictures here on nairaland, though I won't do that because I consider that to be intrusion of their privacy.

Now in, 3 generations to come, their descendants must have had genetic admixtures similar to Jamaican Igbo. Now tell me, what makes them any different from Jamaican Igbo?

I'll tell you a story about DNA mixture and Identity affiliations.

I have a Igbo friend, Chukwuka with Brown as surname which is rare surname to have in Igboland as Igbo people rarely have foreign surnames. He was a coursemate in college. He told me the history of his foreign surname. His great grandfather, Mr. Brown, was a white man from switzerland who happened to come to Igboland for some purpose which I have forgotten. The man took an Igbo wife from Anambra state and they had a first-generation set of half castes who spoke Igbo and smattering of Swiss. Half-castes in Nigeria are mixed race people who are easily known by their lighter-than-average lightskins and foreign body features. One of the half-caste sons on growing later married an Igbo woman from the same Anambra state(village) to give birth to the second-generation quarter castes, including my friend's father. These second-generation quarter castes are my friend's paternal uncles and aunts. My friend told me that all but one of his quarter cast uncles and aunts were all fully black in complexion and none could speak Swiss, but they all speak fluent Igbo. He said the remaining one despite being considerably darkened in skin tone(compared to the first generation) and lighter than his siblings(second-generation) has some body features that indicate that he indeed had some foreign blood in him.

His quarter-caste father, who is black, then further married his mother from the same Anambra state to give birth to Chukwuka and his siblings(third generation) who have full black features and all speak Igbo. They live in Enugu. I've seen his siblings and they look authentically African with no feature that indicates foreign blood. And so it continues till other generations. The only thing reminiscent of their Swiss ancestry is their name. If any male in the Brown family were to perform the Y DNA test, the result would point to a European(Swiss) ancestry. The Brown family currently identify as Igbo people, since they have more than 90% Igbo blood and 5% swiss blood(Y DNA).

In answer to your question a Jamaican Igbo will be different to a Nigerian Igbo.

Mainly because 14 generations have passed meaning there will be more mutations present in the DNA ( A spontaneous change in a gene that
was not present in a family before) Meaning Igbo Jamaicans will have specific mutations that other Igbo will not.


Also the demographics of Jamaica historically and presently are different to that of Nigeria.

A lot of people of different races have inhabited Jamaica in the past and still do to present day.

This includes Arawak, Jews, Syrians, Chinese and Northern Europeans of course, like English Irish and Scottish.

Thus the Jamaican coat of arms "Out of many one people"

Over many generations the DNA of these groups filtered into the African peoples of Jamaica.


I usually can always tell a Jamaican person by looks alone, even if they do not talk.

So a Nigerian IGBO having a children or Grandchildren with persons of Swiss descent will not produce an equivalent of a present day Jamaican Igbo. . Especially as the Swiss were not among the Europeans who were present in Jamaica

In order to produce something genetically close to a present day Jamaican, Slavery would have to happen all over again and the exact populations who came together then would have to do so again for the same period of time which is impossible





Sometime ago there was a young boy in the UK of Caribbean extraction who needed a bone marrow transplant and there was an appeal to Afro-Caribbean people to forward so they could find a match. This story was also on the news.

A Nigerian lady came forward to see if she could provide a match and she was turned away and specifically stated that they needed Afro Caribbean donors.

She was very upset and said " I could save him".

Her heart was in the right place but she just did not understand the genetic changes and mixtures which took place during the slave trade.

Jayvarley:


In answer to your question a Jamaican Igbo will be different to a Nigerian Igbo.

Mainly because 14 generations have passed meaning there will be more mutations present in the DNA ( A spontaneous change in a gene that
was not present in a family before) Meaning Igbo Jamaicans will have specific mutations that other Igbo will not.


Also the demographics of Jamaica historically and presently are different to that of Nigeria.

A lot of people of different races have inhabited Jamaica in the past and still do to present day.

This includes Arawak, Jews, Syrians, Chinese and Northern Europeans of course, like English Irish and Scottish.

Thus the Jamaican coat of arms "Out of many one people"

Over many generations the DNA of these groups filtered into the African peoples of Jamaica.


I usually can always tell a Jamaican person by looks alone, even if they do not talk.

So a Nigerian IGBO having a children or Grandchildren with persons of Swiss descent will not produce an equivalent of a present day Jamaican Igbo. . Especially as the Swiss were not among the Europeans who were present in Jamaica

In order to produce something genetically close to a present day Jamaican, Slavery would have to happen all over again and the exact populations who came together then would have to do so again for the same period of time which is impossible





Sometime ago there was a young boy in the UK of Caribbean extraction who needed a bone marrow transplant and there was an appeal to Afro-Caribbean people to forward so they could find a match. This story was also on the news.

A Nigerian lady came forward to see if she could provide a match and she was turned away and specifically stated that they needed Afro Caribbean donors.

She was very upset and said " I could save him".

Her heart was in the right place but she just did not understand the genetic changes and mixtures which took place during the slave trade.

THANK YOU!

bigfrancis21: @Jayvarley

I forgot to mention that while a man can perform both the Y DNA(Y DNA being a man he is) and Mt DNA(which everybody inherits exclusively from their mothers) tests, females CANNOT perform the Y DNA tests since they don't have the Y chromosome(which determines maleness). They are naturally handicapped in this aspect though they can perform the Mt DNA test(since both males and females inherit this from their mothers).

To determine their paternal ancestry, females will have to bring a male relative from her father's side, her brother, father, paternal uncle etc to do the test.

Dr. Mae Johnson cannot determine her paternal ancestry from just her Mt DNA alone. She'll have to get a male relative from her father's side, not her husband's family, to do the test. Surprisingly, her male ancestry could point to Europe given that certain white slave masters fathered children by black mothers.

Oprah Winfrey's test results was Mt DNA results(maternal). She's yet to perform her paternal ancestry test.

Yes I am already aware of how the test works and I also know that women inherit XX Chromosomes and Males inhereit XY.

It is already stating the very obvious

bigfrancis21:

@Bold...you're still supporting what I have said before that autosomal(44 chromosomes) DNA testing points to one's regional ancestry in percentage. Sure there will be a unique Caribbean genetic marker that has evolved from over the years just the same way you have west african, central african native american, and european genetic markers. This unique Caribbean genetic marker will be present in the 44 autosomal chromosomes for it is right here among these 44 chromosomes that genetic crossover(called chromosomal crossover actually) takes place mainly. The Y DNA, by and large, remains
unaffected by genetic crossover and it is transferred directly from grandfather, to father, to son and in most cases points to one ancestry. The Mt DNA may undergo chromosomal crossover but to a much lesser extent than the 44 Autosomes.

The DNA test performed on the rapist you're talking about was autosomal. For the umpteenth time, autosomal DNA testing isn't tribe specific. It doesn't point to a single tribe but rather to the region where the individual's recent ancestors have been residing in. Y DNA and Mt DNA testings are what determine specifically one's tribe. That doesn't mean Delroy Grant can't determine his paternal or maternal ancestry. If he wanted to then he'd submit specifically Y DNA and Mt DNA samples to locate his ancestral tribes.

Look at the Autosomal(44 chromosomes) performed on Mark Shriver, for example, which I provided the snapshot image on the previous page. The result only showed his regional ancestries which were European, Native American and West African. What it meant was that all his ancestors may have come from those regions. To further determine specifically the exact tribes within the regions indicated in Autosomal DNA testing where Mark's earliest ancestors originated from the Y DNA and Mt DNA(which African Ancestry.com called specific) will have to be performed.




I've come to the conclusion that genetics is a very complex subject for many to fully understand after all.

I really do not understand the point you are making here. Never did I say that autosomal test was tribe specific!

That is very clear to me and everyone here, to which I am sure

The tests conducted on the molester Delroy Grant were not meant to necessarily trace an African tribal origin but rather to give a racial profile and background. As this was a police investigation!

They were successful to some extent as they found that he was of Caribbean stock


I was simply pointing out that there is some genetic difference between a Caribbean person and a native African person!


However when I do you seem to be giving me long paragraphs about DNA testing! As if that negates the genetic differences between the two groups

Anyway I give up

Jayvarley:


In answer to your question a Jamaican Igbo will be different to a Nigerian Igbo.

Mainly because 14 generations have passed meaning there will be more mutations present in the DNA ( A spontaneous change in a gene that
was not present in a family before) Meaning Igbo Jamaicans will have specific mutations that other Igbo will not.


Also the demographics of Jamaica historically and presently are different to that of Nigeria.

A lot of people of different races have inhabited Jamaica in the past and still do to present day.

This includes Arawak, Jews, Syrians, Chinese and Northern Europeans of course, like English Irish and Scottish.

Thus the Jamaican coat of arms "Out of many one people"

Over many generations the DNA of these groups filtered into the African peoples of Jamaica.


I usually can always tell a Jamaican person by looks alone, even if they do not talk.

So a Nigerian IGBO having a children or Grandchildren with persons of Swiss descent will not produce an equivalent of a present day Jamaican Igbo. . Especially as the Swiss were not among the Europeans who were present in Jamaica

In order to produce something genetically close to a present day Jamaican, Slavery would have to happen all over again and the exact populations who came together then would have to do so again for the same period of time which is impossible





Sometime ago there was a young boy in the UK of Caribbean extraction who needed a bone marrow transplant and there was an appeal to Afro-Caribbean people to forward so they could find a match. This story was also on the news.

A Nigerian lady came forward to see if she could provide a match and she was turned away and specifically stated that they needed Afro Caribbean donors.

She was very upset and said " I could save him".

Her heart was in the right place but she just did not understand the genetic changes and mixtures which took place during the slave trade.

Now, let me ask you this one simple question. You claim to be too mixed. Yes I understand. Now, are you more mixed than we Africans ourselves? Jamaicans may have over the years mixed with highest 30 different tribes, yet Nigeria alone has over 250 different tribes let alone the whole of Africa. Yet we still retain our identity. So why coming up with the all-mixed alibi as like you're one rare genetic make-up? With as few as 30 selected tribes shipped off to Jamaica, how more mixed can you get than a Nigerian with over 250 neighboring tribes or an African with over 800 different nationalities?

You claim to be too mixed to be affiliated to one specific tribe yet African Americans are submitting their DNA samples forward to rediscover their lineages and identity. The same AAs are coming back more and more to Africa to rejoin with their kinsmen. Clearly, they don't share the same view here with you for if they did they would not have bothered to take the DNA test in the first place. Instead they would have come up with silly excuses such as 'I am too mixed to have an ancestry'.

You claim to bee too mixed to have tribal affiliations yet African Ancestry.com, the US Leading DNA testing company which has the largest database of African samples, has been proving your point weak by linking African Americans up to their Paternal and Maternal ancestries.

You claim to be too mixed yet research works and sources that give the ancestries of AAs classify them by mainly by one ancestry which is their paternal ancestry.

I asked you before if you were Barbadian(father's side) or Jamaican(mother's side) and you didn't give me a specific answer. You chose to clearly play blind to the fact that the world is patriarchal that no matter the number of mixing you've had in your ancestry, at the end of the day you are still of your father's ancestry. I bet you have a surname. You claim to be to mixed to identify with one side, now answer me, are you answering your father's or mother's surname?

Even in the Christian bible, genealogy was traced paternally. Micah was the son of Meribbaal, who was the son of Jonathan, who was the son of Saul, who was the son of Kish and so on and on. The Jewish people had wives who were Amorite, Arabic, Galilean, Elamite, Parthian, Roman, Asian, Libyan, Syrian etc. All these foreign tribes all contributed to the modern Jewish genetic make up. What are their descendants known as today? Too mixed people? Or Jewish? Lol

Finally, by claiming to be too mixed, are you saying DNA genealogy testing is nonsense and should be done away with?

Jayvarley:





I was simply pointing out that there is some genetic difference between a Caribbean person and a native African person!


However when I do you seem to be giving me long paragraphs about DNA testing! As if that negates the genetic differences between the two groups

Anyway I give up

@Bold...just as there are genetic differences between west africans and central africans, all within the same Africa!

That renders your case non-special.

Igbo's take risks in marrying Americans? And the American? What happens when the Igbo husband or wife becomes an American Citizen and divorces to remarry a virgin from his village or a young man from back home leaving the 40 something hubby with the family cat?

bigfrancis21:

Now, let me ask you this one simple question. You claim to be too mixed. Yes I understand. Now, are you more mixed than we Africans ourselves? Jamaicans may have over the years mixed with highest 30 different tribes, yet Nigeria alone has over 250 different tribes let alone the whole of Africa. Yet we still retain our identity. So why coming up with the all-mixed alibi as like you're one rare genetic make-up? With as few as 30 selected tribes shipped off to Jamaica, how more can you get more mixed than a Nigerian with 250 neighboring tribes or an African with over 800 different nationalities?

You claim to be too mixed to be affiliated to one specific tribe yet African Americans are submitting their DNA samples forward to rediscover their lineages and identity. The same AAs are coming back more and more to Africa to rejoin with their kinsmen. Clearly, they don't share the same view here with you for if they did they would not have bothered to take the DNA test in the first place. Instead they would have come up with silly excuses such as 'I am too mixed to have an ancestry'.

You claim to bee too mixed to have tribal affiliations yet African Ancestry.com, the US Leading DNA testing company which has the largest database of African samples, has been proving your point weak by linking African Americans up to their Paternal and Maternal ancestries.

You claim to be too mixed yet research works and sources that give the ancestries of AAs classify them by mainly by one ancestry which is their paternal ancestry.

I asked you before if you were Barbadian(father's side) or Jamaican(mother's side) and you didn't give me a specific answer. You chose to clearly play blind to the fact that the world is patriarchal that no matter the number of mixing you've had in your ancestry, at the end of the day you are still of your father's ancestry. I bet you have a surname. You claim to be to mixed to identify with one side, now answer me, are you answering your father's or mother's surname?

Even in the Christian bible, genealogy was traced paternally. Micah was the son of Meribbaal, who was the son of Jonathan, who was the son of Saul, who was the son of Kish and so on and on. The Jewish people had wives who were Amorite, Arabic, Galileans, Elamites, Parthians, Romans, Asians etc. What are their descendants known as today? Too mixed people? Or Jewish? Lol

Finally, by claiming to be too mixed, are you saying DNA genealogy testing is nonsense and should be done away with?

Now you seem to be exaggerating my words. Look through all of my previous posts and see if you can find me saying that I am too mixed to be identified!!

I am happy that many African Americans are tracing their African roots and establishing tribal ties.

IT IS A GOOD THING!

I only said that the science is not yet flawless, and has it's limitations.

So in other words I do not want to depend solely on it.


In answer to your question " Now, are you more mixed than we Africans ourselves?

The answer is Afro Caribbean and African Americans have higher percentages of NON AFRICAN GENES than West Africans.

Or do you think am incorrect??



Your question

So why coming up with the all-mixed alibi as like you're one rare genetic make-up?


Because we are! There is no other population on earth who's genes are quite like ours.

This is the reason a geneticist can identify one of us as Afro-Caribbean by a simple swab test.

If there were no difference a geneticist would not be able to tell the difference between myself or yourself.

That does not mean I am denying my links to Africa


Now your question regarding surnames is interesting because in Barbados Law

If a woman was unmarried and had a child the child would inherit the surname of his Mother.

As there was a lack of marriage for at least 3 or 4 generations I bear the surname of my Fathers Mother and not his Father.

My Fathers Father also bears the name of his Mother and not his own Father

Now you final question:

What are their descendants known as today? Too mixed people? Or Jewish?


Jews who mixed with other non Jewish populations obviously produced offspring.

However the Black Jews of Ethiopia who claim lineage through King Solomon and David were not even accepted by the Jews of Israel.

If you do some research on this subject you will find that there is a great deal of racism against blacks in Israel Jewish or not.

It is the same for African Americans who EMBRACE their African heritage.

Native Africans will REJECT THEM and say that AA'S deliberately discarded their African identity

Jayvarley:




Because we are! There is no other population on earth who's genes are quite like ours.

This is the reason a geneticist can identify one of us as Afro-Caribbean by a simple swab test.

If there were no difference a geneticist would not be able to tell the difference between myself or yourself.

That does not mean I am denying my links to Africa


Now your question regarding surnames is interesting because in Barbados Law

If a woman was unmarried and had a child the child would inherit the surname of his Mother.

As there was a lack of marriage for at least 3 or 4 generations I bear the surname of my Fathers Mother and not his Father.

My Fathers Father also bears the name of his Mother and not his own Father

Now you final question:

What are their descendants known as today? Too mixed people? Or Jewish?


Jews who mixed with other non Jewish populations obviously produced offspring.

However the Black Jews of Ethiopia who claim lineage through King Solomon and David were not even accepted by the Jews of Israel.

If you do some research on this subject you will find that there is a great deal of racism against blacks in Israel Jewish or not.

It is the same for African Americans who EMBRACE their African heritage.

Native Africans will REJECT THEM and say that AA'S deliberately discarded their African identity

@Bold...from the bolded I can infer then that there are lots of unmarried barbadian women who give birth out of wedlock. That still doesn't mean Barbados isn't a patriarchal society, You are answering your grandmother;s surname today basically because she produced offspring out of wedlock.

Jayvarley:
What are their descendants known as today? Too mixed people? Or Jewish?


Jews who mixed with other non Jewish populations obviously produced offspring.

However the Black Jews of Ethiopia who claim lineage through King Solomon and David were not even accepted by the Jews of Israel.


If you do some research on this subject you will find that there is a great deal of racism against blacks in Israel Jewish or not.

It is the same for African Americans who EMBRACE their African heritage.

Native Africans will REJECT THEM and say that AA'S deliberately discarded their African identity

@Bold...You are clearly dodging the question. I asked you what the modern Jewish people, who are a mix of Syrian, Asian, roman, amorite, libyan, Egyptian ancestries, are called today? You rushed off and started calling Ethiopian Jews. If Ethiopian Jews aren't deemed Jewish why then is 'Jew' attached to their appellation?

How can you also say they were not accepted by the people of Israel when Israel personally airlifted them out of Ethiopia and brought them into Israel? They were not accepted yet Ethiopian Jews are part of the Israeli army?
http://www.israeltoday.co.il/SupportIsrael/BundleofLove/tabid/237/post/more-ethiopians-joining-elite-idf-unit/Default.aspx

Moreover, the Ethiopian Jews were not descended from David. They were descended from the tribe of Dan!

Don't get into another argument with me on this cos i'm well-versed in this subject. Here is a link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethiopian_Jews_in_Israel


I've made it easy for you. Educate yourself.

bigfrancis21:

@Bold...from the bolded I can infer then that there are lots of unmarried barbadian women who give birth out of wedlock. That still doesn't mean Barbados isn't a patriarchal society, You are answering your grandmother;s surname today basically because she produced offspring out of wedlock.

I do not believe that Barbadian society is as patriarchal as African society.

Primarily because we are not tribal people anymore. We see our countrymen as Barbadians and not Yoruba or Igbo or Akan or Asante.

I did tell you that tribal differences were put aside during slavery as all tribes/ethnicities had something in common they are ALL BLACK PEOPLE, who were under oppression

Jayvarley:
What are their descendants known as today? Too mixed people? Or Jewish?


Jews who mixed with other non Jewish populations obviously produced offspring.

However the Black Jews of Ethiopia who claim lineage through King Solomon and David were not even accepted by the Jews of Israel.


If you do some research on this subject you will find that there is a great deal of racism against blacks in Israel Jewish or not.

It is the same for African Americans who EMBRACE their African heritage.

Native Africans will REJECT THEM and say that AA'S deliberately discarded their African identity

@Bold...my dear how can you say there is racism between africans and african americans who, the last time I checked, are both blacks?
How can a black be a racist to another black? Have you forgotten what race is and what racism also is?

Have you now resorted to making up incorrect statements just to back up your already weakened point-of-view, just like Kails?

bigfrancis21:

@Bold...my dear how can you say there is racism between africans and african americans who, the last time I checked, are both blacks?
How can a black be a racist to another black? Have you forgotten what race is and what racism also is?

Have you now resorted to making up incorrect statements just to back up your already weakened point-of-view, just like Kails?

Notice that I did not use the word RACIST in my least thread. I talked about rejection.


I will talk to you tomorrow I have to head out!

Jayvarley:

I do not believe that Barbadian society is as patriarchal as African society.

Primarily because we are not tribal people anymore. We see our countrymen as Barbadians and not Yoruba or Igbo or Akan or Asante.[/b]

I did tell you that tribal differences were put aside during slavery as all tribes/ethnicities had something in common they are ALL BLACK PEOPLE, who were under oppression

@Bold...LOL! I knew you'd want to defend this! And I was waiting just for you!

Who says that to be a patriarchal society one must have tribes? What about Saudi Arabia which is more patriarchal than most African society yet they don't have tribes?

[size=14pt]Barbados is a patriarchal society. I got evidence below. I set you a trap and you fell for it. [/size]

http://www.un.org/womenwatch/daw/csw/csw53/statements_missions/Barbados.pdf

Very weak proof don't you think?

Barbadian Mentality is very different to West Africans.. Take It from someone who is of Barbadian stock

You seem to have a lot of time on your hands for useless arguments.


You seem to think that you know more about my own people than I do.

I will no longer entertain you as you are probably just doing it for fun

Goodnight!

Jayvarley: You seem to have a lot of time on your hands for useless arguments.


You seem to think that you know more about my own people than I do.

I will no longer entertain you as you are probably just doing it for fun

Goodnight!

You sound like you're angry. Please don't be pal, its only an intelligent discourse and I must admit, you're capable of holding an intelligent discussion without resorting to the use of profanity like your sister who called me a fish bottom(battyfish) in jamaican patois! Thinking that I don't understand Jamaican Patois.

Good night! And enough of the silly arguments!

^^battyfish does not mean fish ass.
you do not understand patois. FOH.

Jayvarley: You seem to have a lot of time on your hands for useless arguments.


You seem to think that you know more about my own people than I do.

I will no longer entertain you as you are probably just doing it for fun

Goodnight!

it's about time lol!!

@Kails

file:///C:/Users/Workstation%201/Downloads/Michel%27s%20perspective%20%20Distant%20yet%20near%20hand%20drums.htm

maandag 10 september 2012
Distant yet near hand drum




BONGOS

Santiago de Cuba and its surrounding province is the main birthplace of the Son music genre, that arose at the end of the 19th c., which in turn strongly influenced Salsa in a later stage. The province Santiago de Cuba and the bordering province Guantánamo to the east (also with mainly inhabitants of African descent) also are the place of origin of the musical instrument known as “Bongos”. This is interrelated: it can be said that the Son and the Bongos mostly developed historically in tandem. The Bongos are attached drums of differing size, commonly used as percussion in son music, but soon also other Cuban music, later on Cuban-derived salsa, and over time also in other Caribbean genres, or even genres in the US and Europe (funk, soul, pop). The bongos also made their way to Brazil. It is said by several musicologists and others that the bongos – along with the Congas (also originally Cuban in that form) – are among the most internationally spread of Caribbean musical instruments, or indeed of all percussion instruments.

ORIGINS

That begs the questions of the origins of the bongos. At least it would among those with a reasonably inquisitive mind. I’ve studied literature on this, and found differing explanations, including contradictions, and revisions. I think I can come to some reasonable conclusions, however.

Fernando Ortiz is a famous early (white) Cuban anthropologist, since about the 1930s. He had some dubious sides to him: in his early “scientific” stage he even believed in Lombroso’s theory that criminal tendency can be seen in physical features. This is, well, plain stupidity. That Ortiz believed in this is almost enough to discredit him, but not entirely, because he corrected himself in a sense and changed his views and general opinions toward more progressive and human, with a detailed interest in Afro-Cuban culture.

He wrote in a work released in 1954 about the bongos that they originated in Cuba and is in that sense a creolized local Cuban invention, albeit based on African models. These African drum models, with one membrane (and hide) and an open bottom are mainly of Congo/Angola origin, just like the conga. The connecting of two drums of differing sizes on the other hand most probably developed for practical purposes in Cuba. The bongos (the instrument is actually called “bongó” in Cuba: the emphasis on the last o and singular) appeared in that form probably since the late 19th c. in South East Cuba, as said in tandem with the development of the Son music genre. It appeared in Havana since 1909, foreboding its wider spread.

Other, later musicologists and anthropologists seem to confirm most of this, though there are some differing opinions. Some trace the origin to the Abakuá secret society among Afro-Cubans origin from the Calabar region (now Nigeria/Cameroon). The fact that slaves from the Congo/Angola region were relatively more common in Eastern Cuba historically makes a deeper Congolese origin of the bongos however more probable. Also the bongos’ partial similarity to specific (historical) drum types in Central Africa/Congo region make that more plausible, although there are certain similarities in percussion and drums throughout sub-Saharan Africa.










JAMAICA

I mentioned before how the bongos served as translator of Afro-Cuban ritual drums, translating these to the secular/popular son music genre and related genres. Not too far south of Santiago de Cuba lies the island of Jamaica. Geographically it’s very close, but a different colonizer and other historical differences makes them seem worlds apart. Often just the language barrier sets for many these islands apart, but I speak both English and Spanish, so for me that is not so the case. I have been to Jamaica as well, which I discussed on this blog as well. Furthermore I have learned a lot about reggae since I am a reggae fan for over 25 years now. I have also read much about it, also historical and cultural studies. I have also studied Cuban music. This is not at all to brag, but I have a point with this: I think I am in a position to compare the music cultures of both islands.

There are some historical differences, but also similarities. Both Jamaica and Cuba knew plantation slavery. This was in Jamaica’s case relatively more intense, making that in the present about 85 % of Jamaicans are primarily of African descent. In Cuba only the region around Santiago de Cuba and Guantánamo comes somewhat close (though there was relatively more racial mixture). I think that for the whole of Cuba about 60 % is (partly) of African descent, which includes bi- or tri-racial people.

Slaves that were forcibly brought to Jamaica came, like in the case of Cuba, from several parts of Africa, with certain concentrations. From what is now Ghana (Ashanti, Coromantee) came relatively many, from what is now Nigeria and Benin, some from the Senegambia region, and also from the Congo/Angola region. Some parts that were less common for slaves brought to Cuba, but also similarities. Studies estimate the percentage of slaves from the Congo/Angola region arriving in Jamaica at about 30% of all slaves. More than many would imagine.

This Congolese cultural influence (including from liberated slaves after Britain abolished slavery) is according to studies strongest in eastern parishes/regions from Jamaica: St Thomas and Portland. A remarkable mirroring of the Cuban situation. Slaves of Congo/Angolan descent have further been reported all over Jamaica, but there is some concentration. Like the religion Kumina from St Thomas and surroundings, the Afro-Cuban religion Palo Monte in Eastern Cuba has strong Congo/Bantu influences, thus also in ritual drum use. Yet also other Afro-Jamaican religious systems like Burru – found in central parishes Clarendon and St Catherine - show Congo influences.

DISTANT DRUMS

In light of this I would like to point at an interesting article I read about the influence of hand drums on the originating and developing of Jamaican music genres: from ska, to rocksteady, to reggae. This was published in the scholarly journal Caribbean Quarterly, Volume 56, nr. 4 (2010): the article was titled: ‘Distant drums : the unsung contribution of African-Jamaican percussion to popular music at home and abroad’. It was written by Kenneth Bilby.

I found this article interesting and revealing. Some say a movie like ‘The Matrix’ was life-changing for them. I consider this article in a sense life-changing for me. At the very least it made clearer what I assumed or knew vaguely. Ska and following music genre rocksteady originating in the period 1960-1966, ultimately resulting in reggae arising in 1968, were influenced in their origins in part by US Black music, like R&B and Blues, but also clearly by Afro-Jamaican music and percussion.

This article by Bilby reveals convincingly through interviews with influential Jamaican musicians and percussionists, with intriguing nicknames like Count Ossie, Bongo Herman, Seeco (percussionist for Bob Marley & the Wailers), Sticky, Skully, and Sky Juice. Reggae fans may know these names at least from credits written on the back or inner sleeves of albums, as most have played with many artists during the Roots Reggae era as well. Besides the names known among reggae fans, Bilby also pays homage and gives credits to lesser know – yet influential - hand drummers and percussionists, who were active in Afro-Jamaican cults like the mentioned Burru tradition. Bilby describes Watta King as a crucial link between the Burru hand drumming and the Nyabinghi drumming tradition among African-centered Rastafari-adherents in West-Kingston, in Jamaica’s capital. Watta King taught several (Rastas) there to drum, including Seeco and the mentor of Count Ossie, while serving as a model for other (later) studio musicians/percussionists as well. Interestingly, this Watta King was of Congo descent.

The Nyabinghi tradition thus developed influenced reggae strongly since reggae originated, as well as earlier genres in Jamaica. Drumming patterns eventually helped shape reggae’s rhythmic structure, as the musicians explain in the said article. This includes the “Heart Beat” (one two, one two) one of the drums called “Funde” in the Nyabinghi tradition regularly play. This Funde drum’s basic rhythm, by the way, combines in Nyabinghi with other more “talking” drum patterns. It influenced according to some the One Drop rhythmic structure, but also indirectly the guitar strum (chick! chick!) on the second and fourth count of a 4/4 beat, characterizing reggae. The great Tarrus Riley song One Two Order (from 2006) refers to this “heart beat”, one-two rhythm of Nyabinghi (and includes it at the beginning).

PARALLELS

The parallels between the Cuban and Jamaican situations are evident: especially with regard to the “translation” of African-based ritual (hand) drumming to percussion and rhythmic structures in popular music genres. Both include a Congo/Angola original influence as well, through Watta King and Kumina on the one hand, and son and the bongos on the other.

The musical worlds of Cuba and Jamaica are not so far apart when looking at origins and essence. Not just in their shared (part) African-based origins – which a wider public already may know - , but also how these influences actually developed, with “hand drums” being the key term. At least frowned upon, but often also conscribed or actively limited by colonial and later elites, this African-based hand drumming nonetheless survived and thus helped maintain African musical traditions through the centuries. Up to the present.

POSTSCRIPT

I myself took up playing the bongos not too long ago. Mainly to practice, I have improvised on some reggae riddims. This originally Afro-Cuban instrument does not seem or “feel” at all out of place - and is in fact occasionally used - within reggae. This is in line with the connecting of musical cultures of this post.

I’ve uploaded my bongo improvisations on my YouTube account: on the Real Rock Riddim I focus more on “rhythmic base”, while on the Columbus Riddim I “talk” more: of course with the rhythm in mind as well. I also tried to use some Nyabinghi patterns, especially in my improvisation on the Columbus Riddim. For the improvistation on the Columbus Riddim the drums were tuned tighter, as one can hear. I still haven't figured out of what animal the hides are from, but they are definitely animal skin (and not synthetic). The manufacturer of similar bongos, the Germany-based Meinl company, tends to use most commonly buffalo hides, so it could be that.

These videos can be seen underneath, or on my YouTube Channel..

Geplaatst door Michel Conci op 14:48
Labels: bongos, Cuba, cultural history, Jamaica, music, percussion, reggae, son
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@Kails
I GONNA BE SHARING THIS BOOK WITH U. ;DAND MANY OTHER BOOKS.

UNLIKE IGBOS I BELIEVE IN SHARING INFO NOT 419.

@ Kwame Can you please post your youtube vids here with the Jamaican Riddims you mentioned

Kails
ANGOLA-CONGO SLAVES RIVALLED BIAFRANS IN THE CARRIBEAN.

Biafrans were majority in Southern West Indies, while Angola-Congos dominated Leeward Islands.

NOTE:ANGOLA-CONGO SENT 5MILLION SLAVES TO NEW WORLD, COMPARED TO "TINY 1,2M" OF IGBOS. FACT

@Jarverly,Crayola1
Chaps everyone knows ya'll are VILLAGE IGBOS not NEW WORLD BLACKS. FACT. STOP FOOLING YOURSELVES AND BE ORIGINAL TRIBALIST CU-NTS.