I got this from a guy who has been following me

I'm still following. It was hard to disagree with anything you have been saying. I grew up in a Christian church, being taught about the Messiah since my earliest memories. He has been the most important thing in my heart for all those years. Your threads and comments are making sense to me intellectually but are hugely difficult emotionally. To lose the messiah makes me feel like I'm losing a part of my own heart. But as you say here, circumcising the heart is cutting away all that makes us defiled and separates us from our creator. I guess the process of heart circumcision is bound to hurt. Worshiping the messiah, praying to him, even ending our prayers to the Father in his name, things we, as former Christians have all done --- idolatry? I NEVER thought of it that way before. And, the whole idea of eternal life in the new testament seems tied to the messiah. YHWH does state over and over in his word that He alone is our Savior...So He is the only one who saves and provides eternal life, not the messiah? That seems to be what His word says when we are looking only at the Tanakh and NOT at the new testament...A lot to think and pray about.


What do you guys think?

Jesus is the only Salvation a man needs. This is why it has been imputed onto us to believe in His name and not the name of YHWH. And when you think about it logically, it makes sense. For why would the name of Jesus be given if God's name was the greatest...? It is simple : Because the name of Jesus is greater than all names in heaven and on earth (Philippians 2:9).

Man sins have been atoned already. There is no other sacrifice required

Hashabiah:
Jesus is the only Salvation a man needs. This is why it has been imputed onto us to believe in His name and not the name of YHWH. And when you think about it logically, it makes sense. For why would the name of Jesus be given if God's name was the greatest...? It is simple : Because name of Jesus is greater than all names in heaven and on earth (Philippians 2:9).

Does this makes sense to you.

Even Jesus Christ said there is no one powerful/greater than the Father

RealLordZeus:

Does this makes sense to you.

Even Jesus Christ said there is no more powerful/greater than the Father

Bros, Jesus name is the greatest ;yet He and His Father are one. Meaning they are a divine unit. Which is why you need to pray in His name. And think about it : If God's name (YHWH) was the greatest, why then do you not pray in the name of YHWH when casting out demons...?

Hashabiah:
Bros, Jesus name is the greatest ;yet He and His Father are one. Meaning they are a divine unit. Which is why you need to pray in His name.

If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I (Jn 14:28).

Jesus himself said this, but you think the word of Paul is greater.

Between Jesus Christ, and Apostle Paul, who did you think is right?

Hashabiah:
Bros, Jesus name is the greatest ;yet He and His Father are one. Meaning they are a divine unit. Which is why you need to pray in His name. And think about it : If God's name (YHWH) was the greatest, why then do you not pray in the name of YHWH when casting out demons...?

Have you tried casting out demons in YHWH name before and it doesn't work??

RealLordZeus:




Jesus himself said this, but you think the word of Paul is greater.

Between Jesus Christ, and Apostle Paul, who did you think is right?

But the Father is in Jesus (John 10:30). In fact Jesus expressly told His disciples He was the Father (John 14:9-10). Anyone who disagrees with this simply disagrees with what Jesus said about Himself.

RealLordZeus:

Have you tried casting out demons in YHWH name before and it doesn't work??

It does not work brother. Trust me

RealLordZeus:




Jesus himself said this, but you think the word of Paul is greater.

Between Jesus Christ, and Apostle Paul, who did you think is right?

Both are right. Jesus spoke about Himself but His ministry was cut short because of His mission on earth. But after His resurrection and ascension into Heaven, He completed the revelation of Himself through Paul and the other apostles. Which is why it is important to read the entire Bible to get a clearer picture of whom Jesus is. Which is why Paul calls it " the great mystery " (1Timothy 3:16)

Hashabiah:
But the Father is in Jesus (John 10:30). In fact Jesus expressly told His disciples He was the Father (John 14:9-10). Anyone who disagrees with this simply disagrees with what Jesus said about Himself.

That's the problem when you don't study the bible properly, even in English there is contextual meaning. You don't just lift a content randomly without checking the preceding or contextual meaning.
Bible scholars have debated a lot on Jn 10:30

…29My Father who has given them to Me is greater than all. No one can snatch them out of My Father’s hand.
30. "I and the Father are one.”

I and the Father are one does not in any way translate to I am the Father.
Read the preceding verse.

Jesus Christ never attributed himself as the Father, in fact he described the father mostly as a separate entity. There is a lot of verse on that.
The idea of Trinity started I think about 500bc. None of the Apostles never called Jesus Christ God. Jesus Christ never called himself God. The Jews never called Jesus God. The Romans (Catholic Church) never called Jesus God.

Hashabiah:
It does not work brother. Trust me

It does bro. Even Jesus Christ was praying to YHWH in the mountain

RealLordZeus:


That's the problem when you don't study the bible properly, even in English there is contextual meaning. You don't just lift a content randomly without checking the preceding or contextual meaning.
Bible scholars have debated a lot on Jn 10:30

…29My Father who has given them to Me is greater than all. No one can snatch them out of My Father’s hand.
30. "I and the Father are one.”

I and the Father are one does not in any way translate to I am the Father.
Read the preceding verse.

Jesus Christ never attributed himself as the Father, in fact he described the father mostly as a separate entity. There is a lot of verse on that.
The idea of Trinity started I think about 500bc. None of the Apostles never called Jesus Christ God. Jesus Christ never called himself God. The Jews never called Jesus God. The Romans (Catholic Church) never called Jesus God.

You have not read the bible so do not say none of His disciples ever called Jesus God. For your information, Thomas called Jesus God(John20:28).


And speaking about context , you are still interpreting it wrongly. Jesus' disciples heard Him speak about His Father and they wanted to see His Father. So Phillip ask " Lord show us the Father, and it is sufficient for us "(John 14:7). Then Jesus plainly told him :" Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father ; so how can you say 'Show us the Father '? Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father in Me? The word I speak I do not speak on my own authority but the Father who dwells in Me does the works... "(John14:8-10).


Stay away from scholars and read the bible for yourself to draw your own conclusions

RealLordZeus:
It does bro. Even Jesus Christ was praying to YHWH in the mountain

Okay. Pray to YHWH and skip the name of Jesus and come back and tell the tale after the demons have overpowered you

Hashabiah:
You have not read the bible so do not say none of His disciples ever called Jesus God. For your information, Thomas called Jesus God(John20:28).


And speaking about context , you are still interpreting it wrongly. Jesus' disciples heard Him speak about His Father and they wanted to see His Father. So Phillip ask " Lord show us the Father, and it is sufficient for us "(John 14:7). Then Jesus plainly told him :" Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father ; so how can you say 'Show us the Father '? Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father in Me? The word I speak I do not speak on my own authority but the Father who dwells in Me does the works... "(John14:8-10).


Stay away from scholars and read the bible for yourself to draw your own conclusions

'Show us the Father '? Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father in Me? The word I speak I do not speak on my own authority but the Father who dwells in Me does the works... "(John14:8-10

Pls answer this question bro.

Does the Holy Spirit live in you or not?

If yes, Does that mean you are the Holy Spirit?

Show me a verse where Jesus said himself, I am the Father or I am God.

Jesus called himself the " son of man" several times and also described the "Father" as a separate entity in many verses.

Pls provide the verse that Jesus Christ said I'm the father or God.

I can show you as many verses as you wanted where Jesus called himself the son or describe God as another entity.

RealLordZeus:


'Show us the Father '? Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father in Me? The word I speak I do not speak on my own authority but the Father who dwells in Me does the works... "(John14:8-10

Pls answer this question bro.

Does the Holy Spirit live in you or not?

If yes, Does that mean you are the Holy Spirit?

Show me a verse where Jesus said himself, I am the Father or I am God.

Jesus called himself the " son of man" several times and also described the "Father" as a separate entity in many verses.

Pls provide the verse that Jesus Christ said I'm the father or God.

I can show you as many verses as you wanted where Jesus called himself the son or describe God as another entity.

Brother we are talking about God and Jesus; and not the Holy Spirit. So let us not digress.


Now nowhere in the Bible does Jesus call Himself God, rather, it is the bible that reveals Him as God. And this is in scripture. And except you want to deny those verses , and refute what Jesus said about Himself, then you must accept those verses. This is simple.

Here is another verse of the Bible which Paul the apostle wrote (under the influence of the Holy Spirit) : " And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory."(1Timothy3:16). This verse (except you want to deny it) is referring to Jesus. And this is enough evidence to say that Jesus is God without you looking for the words of Jesus. Prior to the coming of the birth of Jesus, the prophet Isaiah fortold of who the Messiah would be , and the identity of that Messiah(See Isaiah 9:6)

The new testament does not speak of human sacrifice to God. God does not need animal or human sacrifice. The animal sacrifices were symbols and there is no human sacrifice to God in old or new testament.

Hashabiah:
Brother we are talking about God and Jesus; and not the Holy Spirit. So let us not digress.


Now nowhere in the Bible does Jesus call Himself God, rather, it is the bible that reveals Him as God. And this is in scripture. And except you want to deny those verses , and refute what Jesus said about Himself, then you must accept those verses. This is simple.

Here is another verse of the Bible which Paul the apostle wrote (under the influence of the Holy Spirit) : " And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory."(1Timothy3:16). This verse (except you want to deny it) is referring to Jesus. And this is enough evidence to say that Jesus is God without you looking for the words of Jesus. Prior to the coming of the birth of Jesus, the prophet Isaiah fortold of who the Messiah would be , and the identity of that Messiah(See Isaiah 9:6)

No no no, i'm not digressing.
You said there's no place where Jesus Christ called himself God but the whole notion was deduced from other bible verses mostly from Apostle Paul (under the influence of Holy Spirit)

And i'm also doing the same thing, "The Spirit of God manifested unto the spirit of King Saul and he speaks in tongues", it manifested on a lot of ppl both in the old testament and the new testament, even Apostle Paul himself and they were never called GOD.

For the 1:Timoth 3:16, check other translation of that verse

1 Timothy 3:16, NIV: "Beyond all question, the mystery from which true godliness springs is great: He appeared in the flesh, was vindicated by the Spirit, was seen by angels, was preached among the nations, was believed on in the world, was taken up in glory."

1 Timothy 3:16, ESV: "Great indeed, we confess, is the mystery of godliness: He was manifested in the flesh, vindicated by the Spirit, seen by angels, proclaimed among the nations, believed on in the world, taken up in glory."

1 Timothy 3:16, KJV: "And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory."

1 Timothy 3:16, NASB: "Beyond question, great is the mystery of godliness: He who was revealed in the flesh, Was vindicated in the Spirit, Seen by angels, Proclaimed among the nations, Believed on in the world, Taken up in glory."

1 Timothy 3:16, NLT: "Without question, this is the great mystery of our faith: Christ was revealed in a human body and vindicated by the Spirit. He was seen by angels and announced to the nations. He was believed in throughout the world and taken to heaven in glory."

1 Timothy 3:16, CSB: "And most certainly, the mystery of godliness is great: He was manifested in the flesh, vindicated in the Spirit, seen by angels, preached among the nations, believed on in the world, taken up in glory."

Only KJV translated that part as God and if you check the context, that verse was directly referring to Jesus Christ.



On the part of prophecy by Isaiah The Prophet, It seems you dont understand the true meaning of Messiah, The Hebrew word "Mashiach," meaning Messiah, means "the one anointed with oil.". Actually Christ is not the only one with that Title in the bible, like i said you need to study the bible very well to gain full understanding.
Messiah doesn't mean God.

NB: Anybody disputing the extraordinary status of Jesus Christ is a fool, believing in Him and his message to the world is a must, but equating and placing him above YHWH is abominable and blasphemy, even Christ disapprove of this when he said this "So Jesus said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God." (Mark 10:18, NKJV)
Seek further knowledge, as Christ command so that the Truth shall give you freedom.

Shalom

The First mistake is does sin belong to man?

When a man offends his fellow man surely the mode of cancellation and remedy for the offence must come from he who is offended.

So also when a creation offends its Creation, the remedy of it always lays at the instance and pleasure of the Offended Creator!

And The Law of the wedding at Cana is Good Law To Wit -"Do Whatever He Tells you to do"! (If you like yourself)

sonmvayina:
... YHWH does state over and over in his word that He alone is our Savior...So He is the only one who saves and provides eternal life, not the messiah? That seems to be what His word says when we are looking only at the Tanakh and NOT at the new testament...A lot to think and pray about.
What do you guys think?

Simplest shortest statement "If you love me, keep my commandments" and TWICE Did He Say It!

What people wrongly call old testament say "he that keepeth The Law, happy is he!"

RealLordZeus:


No no no, i'm not digressing.
You said there's no place where Jesus Christ called himself God but the whole notion was deduced from other bible verses mostly from Apostle Paul (under the influence of Holy Spirit)

And i'm also doing the same thing, "The Spirit of God manifested unto the spirit of King Saul and he speaks in tongues", it manifested on a lot of ppl both in the old testament and the new testament, even Apostle Paul himself and they were never called GOD.

For the 1:Timoth 3:16, check other translation of that verse


Only KJV translated that part as God and if you check the context, that verse was directly referring to Jesus Christ.



On the part of prophecy by Isaiah The Prophet, It seems you dont understand the true meaning of Messiah, The Hebrew word "Mashiach," meaning Messiah, means "the one anointed with oil.". Actually Christ is not the only one with that Title in the bible, like i said you need to study the bible very well to gain full understanding.
Messiah doesn't mean God.

NB: Anybody disputing the extraordinary status of Jesus Christ is a fool, believing in Him and his message to the world is a must, but equating and placing him above YHWH is abominable and blasphemy, even Christ disapprove of this when he said this "So Jesus said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God." (Mark 10:18, NKJV)
Seek further knowledge, as Christ command so that the Truth shall give you freedom.

Shalom

A lengthy post with emptiness in it. Anyway, shalom.

Hashabiah:
Bros, Jesus name is the greatest ;yet He and His Father are one. Meaning they are a divine unit. Which is why you need to pray in His name. And think about it : If God's name (YHWH) was the greatest, why then do you not pray in the name of YHWH when casting out demons...?

You post caught my attention..
Can relate this with this verse

John 17:11
“I am no longer in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, watch over them on account of your own name, which you have given me, so that they may be one just as we are one.
In what way are his disciples one?
Embedded into each other?

I was here, but couldn't connect the title with the write-up.

haddeylium:


You post caught my attention..
Can relate this with this verse

John 17:11
“I am no longer in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, watch over them on account of your own name, which you have given me, so that they may be one just as we are one.
In what way are his disciples one?
Embedded into each other?

I no just understand the guy! His kind of Church is a different breed.

BetterChurch:
I was here, but couldn't connect the title with the write-up.

My banter with the guy was off topic but I just can't resist replying him.

But the op title and content self no match

haddeylium:


You post caught my attention..
Can relate this with this verse

John 17:11
“I am no longer in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, watch over them on account of your own name, which you have given me, so that they may be one just as we are one.
In what way are his disciples one?
Embedded into each other?

You do not answer questions with questions. And besides, Jesus categorically told His disciples that the His Father dwells in Him(John14:9-10). This is not a contextualized statement ; it is a literal statement. Because Philip wanted to Know who His Father was. So the analogy you are comparing Jesus with in John 17:11 is completely off point.

So logically speaking it does not make sense for us to twist Jesus' statement in a contextual or figurative way.

Dtruthspeaker:


Simplest shortest statement "If you love me, keep my commandments" and TWICE Did He Say It!

What people wrongly call old testament say "he that keepeth The Law, happy is he!"

My man, jesus gave us commandments in the new testament. If we keep them, we would have fulfilled the purpose of the law. So why do you want to keep all of the law, such as stoning raped victims, having a temple to make sacrifices for sin, etc. Aren't some of these laws backward and outdated? These are simply laws from Moses, and the measure of the spirit of God in Moses or Elijah cannot be compared to that of the Christ, this is what the disciples had to learn in the mount of transfiguration.

GeneralDae:

My man, jesus gave us commandments in the new testament. If we keep them, we would have fulfilled the purpose of the law. So why do you want to keep all of the law, such as stoning raped victims, having a temple to make sacrifices for sin, etc. Aren't some of these laws backward and outdated?

First The Whole Law is about doing of "The Good Alone" and The Right, No one must be willfully injured in any way and manner. Which is summed up in the words of Legal Practice as

"The Tenets of The Law are To Live Honestly, To Hurt No One and To Give To Each his Due!"

Biko, where did you come by stoning of rape victims? God can never ever command the doing of a bad thing at all please check again and please revert

Calm down!
That scripture has explained your earlier statement about 'Jesus and his father being one' doesn't mean they formed a glued body
It means they are in agreement . And He prayed that His disciples 'Should be one' Just as they are one.
often, people say husband and wife are one....cleared?

@bolded
I agree with your last statement. That's why I prefer using scripture to explain scripture
Consider Jesus word here

John 17:21 (Byington)
that they may all be one, as you, Father, are in me and I am in you; that they too may be in us, that the world may believe that you sent me.
Now, let's analyze
As Father are in me(Jesus)
'Thst they(Disciples) too may also be in us'

In what way?
That should be okay
Have a great day

Hashabiah:
You do not answer questions with questions. And besides, Jesus categorically told His disciples that the His Father dwells [b]in Him(John14:9-10)[/b] This is not a contextualized statement ; it is a literal statement. Because Philip wanted to Know who His Father was. So the analogy you are comparing Jesus with in John 17:11 is completely off point.

So logically speaking it does not make sense for us to twist Jesus' statement in a contextual or figurative way.

[s]

haddeylium:
Calm down!
That scripture has explained your earlier statement about 'Jesus and his father being one' doesn't mean they formed a glued body
It means they are in agreement . And He prayed that His disciples 'Should be one' Just as they are one.
often, people say husband and wife are one....cleared?

@bolded
I agree with your last statement. That's why I prefer using scripture to explain scripture
Consider Jesus word here

John 17:21 (Byington)
that they may all be one, as you, Father, are in me and I am in you; that they too may be in us, that the world may believe that you sent me.
Now, let's analyze
As Father are in me(Jesus)
'Thst they(Disciples) too may also be in us'

In what way?
That should be okay
Have a great day

[/s] Wrong again! Read John14:9-10. There is no alternative answer to what Jesus was saying. Why? Because Philip wanted to see the Father ; he needed physical evidence of the Father's existence which why he said SHOW US THE FATHER. And this is a direct meaning with no underlining alterior meaning underneath. And except you want to call Jesus a liar, then you have to agree with what He said about the Father being in Him and He in the Father. This verse sits well because we see the same being said in Colossian 2:9. But if you do not agree with that verse, you can tear it out of your bible and tag it with your own interpretation. But I will advice that you let the bible and Jesus, speak for themselves .

OP doesn’t believe that a human could actually “atone” for the sins of other humans but he will gladly accept that the blood of bulls and goats(lower life forms) will serve a similar purpose?

Dtruthspeaker:


First The Whole Law is about doing of "The Good Alone" and The Right, No one must be willfully injured in any way and manner. Which is summed up in the words of Legal Practice as

"The Tenets of The Law are To Live Honestly, To Hurt No One and To Give To Each his Due!"

Niko, where did you come by stoning of rape victims? God can never ever command the doing of a bad thing at all please check again and please revert

Deuteronomy 22:23-24 If a man happens to meet in a town a virgin pledged to be married and he sleeps with her, you shall take both of them to the gate of that town and stone them to death—the girl because she was in a town and did not scream for help, and the man because he violated another man's wife. You must purge the evil from among you.

In my opinion, the law is not totally just concerning rape victims ( who can marry the rapist afterwards), slaves, women, etc.
In the law, Moses commanded the stoning of a man who violated the Sabbath, he also commanded the burning of promiscuous daughters of Levites, cutting of the hand of a woman who shags a man's thing with her hand during a conflict, and so on and so forth.
Do you think the law should be practiced in the modern world? If you are a priest would you immediately burn your promiscuous daughter alive?