OkCornel:

Do you want me to give examples of God leading people to override His own laws?

In the New Covenant, sure, bring it!

Kobojunkiee:
The Spirit of God is bound to the teachings of Jesus Christ and so He will never go against the very rules set by God Himself, in the person of Jesus Christ - in anything. This fact needs to be clear so one is not easily deceived by the numerous spirits out there... Jesus Christ warned us about them too.

First of all, God is against anyone who installs himself as a pastor/shepherd over his flock. So your "God fearing" pastor is against God. Can sin be of God?

Jesus Christ said that those who love Him are those who obey His teachings/commandments, meaning that those who live in disobedience are not of Him and He does not live inside of them. In john 8, He outright declares that those who are still bound to sin are of their father, the devil!

My question to you is can Jesus Christ be right and at the same time wrong about these things?

You’ve said quite a lot here though. If God calls one to lead his flock, I’ve got no problem with that. But anyone who is called by his or her belly is simply a ravenous wolf among the flock.

Kobojunkiee:
In the New Covenant, sure, bring it!

I’ve updated my previous post bro. Oh... you said new covenant. Never mind.

OkCornel:


You’ve said quite a lot here though. If God calls one to lead his flock, I’ve got no problem with that. But anyone who is called by his or her belly is simply ravenous wolf among the flock.

God cannot call anyone to lead a flock that belongs to Him because God Himself declared Himself against those who led His flock in the past proclaiming that in His New Covenant, He alone will lead His own flock.

You have to get this into the thick of you. God cannot lie and so it must be that what He declared through His prophets, Words echoed by the person of Jesus Christ , the Truth of God, is true.

Either that or God is a liar and these men who claim to be called by God to lead His flock are telling you the truth.
And we know that if our source of truth is man, we are all doomed ...LOL

Kobojunkiee:
God cannot call anyone to lead a flock that belongs to Him because God Himself declared Himself against those who led His flock in the past proclaiming that in His New Covenant, He alone will lead His own flock.

You have to get this into the thick of you. God cannot lie and so it must be that what He declared through His prophets, Words echoed by the person of Jesus Christ , the Truth of God, is true.

Either that or God is a liar and these men who claim to be called by God to lead His flock are telling you the truth. And we know that if your source of truth is the mouth of men, then....LOL

So let’s take for a start then, what was Peter and the Apostles roles in the early church?

OkCornel:
So let’s take for a start then, what was Peter and the Apostles roles in the early church?

That depends on what you mean by "roles", they were sent out as Apostles by Jesus Christ, to preach the Gospel of the Kingdom of God to all the world.

Kobojunkiee:
That depends on what you mean by "roles", they were sent out as Apostles by Jesus Christ, to preach the Gospel of the Kingdom of God to all the world.

Were they leaders in the church or not.

Were they overseers?

1 Timothy 3 v 1-2;

1 Here is a trustworthy saying: Whoever aspires to be an overseer desires a noble task.

2 Now the overseer is to be above reproach, faithful to his wife, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach


What’s your take on the above?

OkCornel:
Were they leaders in the church or not. Were they overseers?

Well, we are called to trust in and obey the teachings of Jesus Christ and not what is written of His disciples instead. And going by the teachings of Jesus Christ, Peter and the others would never have appointed themselves as leaders or authorities over the flock that belongs to God.

Ezekiel 34 vs 9-16 (ERV)
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9. So, you shepherds, listen to the word of the Lord!
10. The Lord God says, “I am against the shepherds. I will demand my sheep from them. I will fire them. They will not be my shepherds anymore. Then the shepherds will not be able to feed themselves, and I will save my flock from their mouths. Then my sheep will not be food for them.”
11. The Lord God says, “I myself will be their Shepherd. I will search for my sheep and take care of them.
12. If a shepherd is with his sheep when they begin to wander away, he will go searching for them. In the same way I will search for my sheep. I will save them and bring them back from all the places where they were scattered on that dark and cloudy day.
13. I will bring them back from those nations. I will gather them from those countries and bring them back to their own land. I will feed them on the mountains of Israel, by the streams, and in all the places where people live.
14. I will lead them to grassy fields. They will go to the place high on the mountains of Israel and lie down on good ground and eat the grass. They will eat in rich grassland on the mountains of Israel.
15. Yes, I will feed my flock, and I will lead them to a place of rest.” This is what the Lord God said.

16. “I will search for the lost sheep. I will bring back the sheep that were scattered and put bandages on the sheep that were hurt. I will make the weak sheep strong, but I will destroy the fat and powerful shepherds. I will feed them the punishment they deserve.”

Jesus Christ echoed the very same in His teachings. So, we know that whatever was indicated of the apostles, either cannot be translated as it is today or the disciples went against the teachings of Jesus Christ.

John 10 vs 7-20 (ERV)
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7. So Jesus said again, “I assure you, I am the gate for the sheep.
8. All those who came before me were thieves and robbers. The sheep did not listen to them.
9. I am the gate. Whoever enters through me will be saved. They will be able to come in and go out. They will find everything they need.
10. A thief comes to steal, kill, and destroy. But I came to give life—life that is full and good.
11. “I am the good shepherd, and the good shepherd gives his life for the sheep.
12. The worker who is paid to keep the sheep is different from the shepherd. The paid worker does not own the sheep. So when he sees a wolf coming, he runs away and leaves the sheep alone. Then the wolf attacks the sheep and scatters them.
13. The man runs away because he is only a paid worker. He does not really care for the sheep.

14-15. “I am the shepherd who cares for the sheep. I know my sheep just as the Father knows me. And my sheep know me just as I know the Father. I give my life for these sheep.
16. I have other sheep too. They are not in this flock here. I must lead them also. They will listen to my voice. In the future, there will be one flock and one shepherd.
17. The Father loves me because I give my life. I give my life so that I can get it back again.
18. No one takes my life away from me. I give my own life freely. I have the right to give my life, and I have the right to get it back again. This is what the Father told me.”
19. Again the Jews were divided over what Jesus was saying.
20. Many of them said, “A demon has come into him and made him crazy. Why listen to him?”

So, do you have it stated, anywhere, that the Spirit of God was indeed responsible for any of the disciples going against the teachings of Jesus Christ?

OkCornel:

1 Timothy 3 v 1-2;
1 Here is a trustworthy saying: Whoever aspires to be an overseer desires a noble task.
2 Now the overseer is to be above reproach, faithful to his wife, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach

What’s your take on the above?

As for the above, well, we do not know of Jesus Christ ever teaching of any such or giving any such rules, so how can it then be of Jesus Christ when it is not of His teaching? Recall that we are called to obey the teachings and commandments of Jesus Christ and His alone... He is the Law as far as the Kingdom of God is concerned. So any other set of rules that present themselves have absolutely nothing to do with Jesus Christ and His Kingdom... the following of man's doctrines and rules are forbidden.

Kobojunkiee:
Well, we are called to trust in and obey the teachings of Jesus Christ and not what is written of His disciples instead. And going by the teachings of Jesus Christ, Peter and the others would never have appointed themselves as leaders or authorities over the flock that belongs to God.
Jesus Christ echoed the very same in His teachings. So, we know that whatever was indicated of the apostles, either cannot be translated as it is today or the disciples went against the teachings of Jesus Christ.
So, do you have it stated, anywhere, that the Spirit of God was indeed responsible for any of the disciples going against the teachings of Jesus Christ?
As for the above, well, we do not know of Jesus Christ ever teaching of any such or giving any such rules, so how can it then be of Jesus Christ when it is not of His teaching? Recall that we are called to obey the teachings and commandments of Jesus Christ and His alone... He is the Law as far as the Kingdom of God is concerned. So any other set of rules that present themselves have absolutely nothing to do with Jesus Christ and His Kingdom... the following of man's doctrines and rules are forbidden.

So when Peter and the Apostles elected to replace Judas, kindly elaborate on the leadership he was referring to here;

Acts 1 v 20-26

20 “For,” said Peter, “it is written in the Book of Psalms:

“‘May his place be deserted;
let there be no one to dwell in it,’
and,

“‘May another take his place of leadership.’

21 Therefore it is necessary to choose one of the men who have been with us the whole time the Lord Jesus was living among us,

22 beginning from John’s baptism to the time when Jesus was taken up from us. For one of these must become a witness with us of his resurrection.”

23 So they nominated two men: Joseph called Barsabbas (also known as Justus) and Matthias.

24 Then they prayed, “Lord, you know everyone’s heart. Show us which of these two you have chosen

25 to take over this apostolic ministry, which Judas left to go where he belongs.”

26 Then they cast lots, and the lot fell to Matthias; so he was added to the eleven apostles.


Dear kobojunkiee, going by the above scriptures... was the Apostolic ministry a position of leadership in the church or not?

What did Peter allude to by referring MAY ANOTHER TAKE HIS PLACE OF LEADERSHIP, with regards to getting a replacement for Judas’ vacancy in the Apostolic ministry.

peggywebbs:
Correction, you can not just quote the old testament out of context. Malachi was the era before Christ. Which means the practices where from the early fathers Moses.

Secondly, the tithes referred to in the passage has nothing to do with money. The bible never made it compulsory to give the church money except at the time when David was building the temple.

Let people give what they want. The only thing we owe God is our obedience to his laws. Afterall, he said obedience is better than sacrifice.

God does not need our money, he doesn't want it. He cannot even live in a building built by the hands of men. Tell your greedy pastors to stop threatening their members with Malachi. If you are a good priest or pastor, you will never hunger.

God will direct people to bring food to your table so long you are doing his work. Many pastors have given testimony of this. Thank you.

Keep shut there.

OkCornel:
So when Peter and the Apostles elected to replace Judas, kindly elaborate on the leadership he was referring to here;
Acts 1
20 “For,” said Peter, “it is written in the Book of Psalms:
“‘May his place be deserted;
let there be no one to dwell in it,’
and,“‘May another take his place of leadership.’
21 Therefore it is necessary to choose one of the men who have been with us the whole time the Lord Jesus was living among us,
22 beginning from John’s baptism to the time when Jesus was taken up from us. For one of these must become a witness with us of his resurrection.”
23 So they nominated two men: Joseph called Barsabbas (also known as Justus) and Matthias.
24 Then they prayed, “Lord, you know everyone’s heart. Show us which of these two you have chosen
25 to take over this apostolic ministry, which Judas left to go where he belongs.”
26 Then they cast lots, and the lot fell to Matthias; so he was added to the eleven apostles.

His place of leadership?

Matthew 19 vs 26-30 (ESV)
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26. Jesus looked at them and said, “This is something that people cannot do. But God can do anything.”
27. Peter said to him, “We left everything we had and followed you. So what will we have?”
28. Jesus said to them, “When the time of the new world comes, the Son of Man will sit on his great and glorious throne. And I can promise that you who followed me will sit on twelve thrones, and you will judge the twelve tribes of Israel.
29. Everyone who has left houses, brothers, sisters, father, mother, children, or farms to follow me will get much more than they left. And they will have eternal life.
30. Many people who are first now will be last in the future. And many who are last now will be first in the future.

The 12 were, according to Jesus Christ, meant to sit on 12 thrones and judged the tribes of Israel. So with Judas, lost to the Kingdom, another had to take His place.

OkCornel:
Dear kobojunkiee, going by the above scriptures... was the Apostolic ministry a position of leadership in the church or not?

What did Peter allude to by referring MAY ANOTHER TAKE HIS PLACE OF LEADERSHIP, with regards to getting a replacement for Judas’ vacancy in the Apostolic ministry.

Church ke? Apostolic ministry ke? they barely knew what was next for them at the time.

Kobojunkiee:
His place of leadership?
The 12 were, according to Jesus Christ, meant to sit on 12 thrones and judged the tribes of Israel. So with Judas, lost to the Kingdom, another had to take His place.
Church ke? Apostolic ministry ke? they barely knew what was next for them at the time.

So it was not leadership in the church?

They would have thrones and gates in heaven but no position of leadership in the church?

OkCornel:
So it was not leadership in the church?
They would have thrones and gates in heaven but no position of leadership in the church?

Leadership in what church? Read the passage again...

Matthew 19 vs 26-30 (ESV)
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26. Jesus looked at them and said, “This is something that people cannot do. But God can do anything.”
27. Peter said to him, “We left everything we had and followed you. So what will we have?”
28. Jesus said to them, “When the time of the new world comes, the Son of Man will sit on his great and glorious throne. And I can promise that you who followed me will sit on twelve thrones, and you will judge the twelve tribes of Israel.
29. Everyone who has left houses, brothers, sisters, father, mother, children, or farms to follow me will get much more than they left. And they will have eternal life.
30. Many people who are first now will be last in the future. And many who are last now will be first in the future.

Here's a clue... the 12 men in question are Jews, formerly of the Old Covenant, and we know that the Church of Jesus Christ has nothing to do with the tribe of Israel... or maybe I should say this is a tale of 2 different Kingdoms - the Kingdom of Israel and the Kingdom of God. The passage above speaks of the Kingdom of Israel.

The only leadership in the Kingdom of God is Jesus Christ... He is the Head of the Church and the Only leader over those who belong in His flock, both and even afterwards since we are all equal heirs in His Kingdom.

Kobojunkiee:
Leadership in what church? Read the passage again...

Here's a clue... the 12 men in question are Jews, formerly of the Old Covenant, and we know that the Church of Jesus Christ has nothing to do with the tribe of Israel... or maybe I should say this is a tale of 2 different Kingdoms - the Kingdom of Israel and the Kingdom of God. The passage above speaks of the Kingdom of Israel.

The only leadership in the Kingdom of God is Jesus Christ... He is the Head of the Church and the Only leader over those who belong in His flock, both and even afterwards since we are all equal heirs in His Kingdom.

Bros, I leave the matter to rest then.

OkCornel:
Bros, I leave the matter to rest then.

No, why?

Angelmichael63:
If you don't pay TITHES AND OFFERING you are a thief and you are robbing God
MALACHI 3:8-12

And if you pay,is not longer your money/resources therefore whatever the TITHE is used for in the church does not concerns you

Since you have paid,you have obeyed the word of God and you are entitled to God's blessings pronounced for tither.

If pastors misuses it, Is between them and God for judgement and not you

If you are truly a Christian then you should believe every part of the scriptures and do your best to obey the scripture which is the word of God

THANK YOU ALL

IF YOU HAVE ANYTHING CONTRARY PLS BACK IT UP WITH SCRIPTURE ELSE, IS NOT LONGER A CHRISTIAN DOCTRINE.

Lazy man. Go and work .

Kobojunkiee:
No, why?

Brother mi, end of discussion. There’s nothing else to discuss on the matter, as that’s what you understand so far

Another new tithe thread!
Nothing new..No new scripture to add...same old regurgitated Malachi 3!
The Tithe matter has been extensively discussed previously and scriptures used knocked it down several times!
I hardly argue with anyone about whether to tithe or not...whatever rocks your boat!

OkCornel:
Brother mi, end of discussion. There’s nothing else to discuss on the matter, as that’s what you understand so far

I will use this opportunity to make clear God's stance on your "church" authorities really is, and this according to the New Covenant, Jesus Christ.

a) God alone is Teacher - God declared through His Prophets that He alone will be a teacher over those who belong in His flock, in Jeremiah 31. Jesus Christ echoed this same teaching in His New Covenant.

Matthew 23 vs 8-9 (ERV)
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8. “But you must not be called ‘Teacher.’ You are all equal as brothers and sisters. You have only one Teacher.
9. And don’t call anyone on earth ‘Father.’ You have one Father. He is in heaven.

b) God alone is Shepherd - God declared in Ezekiel 34 that He alone will be shepherd over His flock. He fired the shepherds of Old to prove this and through Jesus Christ echoed the same message.

John 10 vs 7-20 (ERV)
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7. So Jesus said again, “I assure you, I am the gate for the sheep.
8. All those who came before me were thieves and robbers. The sheep did not listen to them.
9. I am the gate. Whoever enters through me will be saved. They will be able to come in and go out. They will find everything they need.
10. A thief comes to steal, kill, and destroy. But I came to give life—life that is full and good.
11. “I am the good shepherd, and the good shepherd gives his life for the sheep.
12. The worker who is paid to keep the sheep is different from the shepherd. The paid worker does not own the sheep. So when he sees a wolf coming, he runs away and leaves the sheep alone. Then the wolf attacks the sheep and scatters them.
13. The man runs away because he is only a paid worker. He does not really care for the sheep.

14-15. “I am the shepherd who cares for the sheep. I know my sheep just as the Father knows me. And my sheep know me just as I know the Father. I give my life for these sheep.
16. I have other sheep too. They are not in this flock here. I must lead them also. They will listen to my voice. In the future, there will be one flock and one shepherd.
17. The Father loves me because I give my life. I give my life so that I can get it back again.
18. No one takes my life away from me. I give my own life freely. I have the right to give my life, and I have the right to get it back again. This is what the Father told me.”
19. Again the Jews were divided over what Jesus was saying.
20. Many of them said, “A demon has come into him and made him crazy. Why listen to him?”

c) God alone is Master over His followers

Matthew 6 vs 24 (ERV)
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24. “You cannot serve two masters at the same time. You will hate one and love the other, or you will be loyal to one and not care about the other. You cannot serve God and Money[d] at the same time.

Again...

Matthew 23 vs 10-12 (ERV)
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10. And you should not be called ‘Master.’ You have only one Master, the Messiah.
11. Whoever serves you like a servant is the greatest among you.
12. People who think they are better than others will be made humble. But people who humble themselves will be made great.

d) God alone is Father over all of His followers...

[b] Matthew 23 vs 8-9 (ERV)
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8. “But you must not be called ‘Teacher.’ You are all equal as brothers and sisters. You have only one Teacher.
9. And don’t call anyone on earth ‘Father.’ You have one Father. He is in heaven.

e) God is your leader and guide - In Ezekiel, God describes how by His Spirit, He will command and lead His followers to the obedience of His commandments.

Ezekiel 36 vs 24-30 (ESV)
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24. “I will take you out of those nations, gather you together, and bring you back to your own land.
25. Then I will sprinkle pure water on you and make you pure. I will wash away all your filth, the filth from those nasty idols, and I will make you pure.
26. I will also put a new spirit in you to change your way of thinking. I will take out the heart of stone from your body and give you a tender, human heart.
27. I will put my Spirit inside you[c] and change you so that you will obey my laws. You will carefully obey my commands.
28. Then you will live in the land that I gave to your ancestors. You will be my people, and I will be your God.
29. Also, I will save you and keep you from becoming unclean. I will command the grain to grow. I will not bring a famine against you.
30. I will give you large crops of fruit from your trees and the harvest from your fields so that you will never again feel the shame of being hungry in a foreign country.
31. You will remember the bad things you did. You will remember that those things were not good. Then you will hate yourselves because of your sins and the terrible things you did.”

f) His followers are instructed not to occupy seats or positions of authority or leadership over the others.

Matthew 20 vs 20-28 (ESV)
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20. Then Zebedee’s wife came to Jesus and brought her sons. [/b]She bowed before Jesus and asked him to do something for her.
[b] 21. Jesus said, “What do you want?”
She said, “Promise that one of my sons will sit at your right side in your kingdom and the other at your left.”
22. So Jesus said to the sons, “You don’t understand what you are asking. Can you drink from the cup[a] that I must drink from?”
The sons answered, “Yes, we can!”
23. Jesus said to them, “It is true that you will drink from the cup that I drink from. But it is not for me to say who will sit at my right or my left. My Father has decided who will do that. He has prepared those places for them.”
24. The other ten followers heard this and were angry with the two brothers.
25. So Jesus called the followers together. He said, “You know that the rulers of the non-Jewish people love to show their power over the people. And their important leaders love to use all their authority over the people.
26. But it should not be that way with you. Whoever wants to be your leader must be your servant.
27. Whoever wants to be first must serve the rest of you like a slave.
28. Do as I did: The Son of Man did not come for people to serve him. He came to serve others and to give his life to save many people.”

After reading through the passages, where do you think the leadership you have in your churches, today, come from. Are you sure the same God who declared all of the above is the same God who "called" them to rule over His flock?

Kobojunkiee:
I will use this opportunity to make clear God's stance on your "church" authorities really is, and this according to the New Covenant, Jesus Christ.

a) God alone is Teacher - God declared through His Prophets that He alone will be a teacher over those who belong in His flock, in Jeremiah 31. Jesus Christ echoed this same teaching in His New Covenant.

b) God alone is Shepherd - God declared in Ezekiel 34 that He alone will be shepherd over His flock. He fired the shepherds of Old to prove this and through Jesus Christ echoed the same message.
c) God alone is Master over His followers
Again...

d) God alone is Father over all of His followers...

[b] e) God is your leader and guide - In Ezekiel, God describes how by His Spirit, He will command and lead His followers to the obedience of His commandments.

f) His followers are instructed not to occupy seats or positions of authority or leadership over the others.

After reading through the passages, where do you think the leadership you have in your churches, today, come from. Are you sure the same God who declared all of the above is the same God who "called" them to rule over His flock?

1 John 2 v 26-27;

26 I am writing these things to you about those who are trying to lead you astray.

27 As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit—just as it has taught you, remain in him.


The above verses lets us know the Holy Spirit is the ultimate leader and teacher of God’s truth. Not man.

However, bear in mind that this same Spirit has given the gift of teaching and other gifts as he desires to different believers for the building and edification of the body. It takes away nothing from the fact that He is the ultimate authority every believer should defer to.

So yes, I get you totally. Which still brings me to my initial question. If the Holy Spirit specifically instructs me to give money or possessions to the ministry of a God fearing pastor, are you telling me to disobey the Holy Spirit’s instructions? Or should we limit the Holy Spirit to the written word of God? (Take note, I wrote “written word”)

OkCornel:
1 John 2 v 26-27;
26 I am writing these things to you about those who are trying to lead you astray.
27 As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit—just as it has taught you, remain in him.
The above verses lets us know the Holy Spirit is the ultimate leader and teacher of God’s truth. Not man.

Please try to pay close attention to the meaning in what God is telling you by His Word.

Almighty God Himself declared to you that He alone is Teacher to all those who belong to Him. Jesus Christ came down and reiterated the same claim made previously by God Almighty, that indeed, God alone will be the only Teacher you need. Then you have above, a disciple of the same Jesus Christ bearing witness to the very teaching of Jesus Christ that, indeed, God alone is the only Teacher you need.

OkCornel:
However, bear in mind that this same Spirit has given the gift of teaching and other gifts as he desires to different believers for the building and edification of the body. It takes away nothing from the fact that He is the ultimate authority every believer should defer to.

But here you insist that God lied all of the previous times He proclaimed that He alone would be Teacher/authority over each of His followers... and why? Because you want to give concession to ideas that God does not mean what He says. Doesn't this here clue you into the existence of a Trust issue where God Almighty is concerned?

God never said anything about being the ultimate authority... He insisted that He is the only Teacher/Authority/Shepherd/Master/Father/Leader/Head/God over all those who belong to HIm. Jesus Christ insisted upon this and John, the Apostle, confirmed this is indeed the case. But why do you find God's account non-credible in these things? Why do you not Trust God, in this and in other things?

OkCornel:
So yes, I get you totally. Which still brings me to my initial question. If the Holy Spirit specifically instructs me to give money or possessions to the ministry of a God fearing pastor, are you telling me to disobey the Holy Spirit’s instructions? Or should we limit the Holy Spirit to the written word of God? (Take note, I wrote “written word”)

Nah! I am afraid you are still lost in this since you still feel you need to bring God's own declaration subject to man's. Jesus Christ Himself informed you that the Spirit of God will never contradict God Almighty, and so He will never instruct you to go against the very Law of God as that amounts to deceit and God is not a liar, nor is He a man that He would change His mind. I think you need to ask yourself if it is God you trust or the words of your "God-fearing" men that you instead draw your strength from.

Case to consider: Let me give you an example of what God would never do. So, somewhere in the letters written by John and by Paul, we read that each of these men clearly refers to themselves as fathers over those God had allowed them to preach to and help bring into God's flock. Now, if you were to judge this, knowing that Jesus Christ clearly declared that none of His own are to be called Father over anyone in His fold, you would probably say that the Spirit of Truth is the one who specifically instructed that these apostles call themselves fathers over some of God's flock. Well, you would be wrong because Jesus Christ forbade such action, and since Jesus Christ made it clear that the Spirit of Truth would take from that which is His(His Truth /Teaching) to give to you, we know that the Spirit, therefore, cannot contradict Jesus Christ in this and so it is instead the case that John and Paul sinned by their action.

See how easy and straightforward that is? Now I ask you, why are you instead eager to throw God and His Truth under the Bus in order to further the lies of men? What does your soul really gain from such exercise?

Kobojunkiee:
Please try to pay close attention to the meaning in what God is telling you by His Word.

Almighty God Himself declared to you that He alone is Teacher to all those who belong to Him. Jesus Christ came down and reiterated the same claim made previously by God Almighty, that indeed, God alone will be the only Teacher you need. Then you have above, a disciple of the same Jesus Christ bearing witness to the very teaching of Jesus Christ that, indeed, God alone is the only Teacher you need.
But here you insist that God lied all of the previous times He proclaimed that He alone would be Teacher/authority over each of His followers... and why? Because you want to give concession to ideas that God does not mean what He says. Doesn't this here clue you into the existence of a Trust issue where God Almighty is concerned?

God never said anything about being the ultimate authority... He insisted that He is the only Teacher/Authority/Shepherd/Master/Father/Leader/Head/God over all those who belong to HIm. Jesus Christ insisted upon this and John, the Apostle, confirmed this is indeed the case. But why do you find God's account non-credible in these things? Why do you not Trust God, in this and in other things?
Nah! I am afraid you are still lost in this since you still feel you need to bring God's own declaration subject to man's. Jesus Christ Himself informed you that the Spirit of God will never contradict God Almighty, and so He will never instruct you to go against the very Law of God as that amounts to deceit and God is not a liar, nor is He a man that He would change His mind. I think you need to ask yourself if it is God you trust or the words of your "God-fearing" men that you instead draw your strength from.

Case to consider: Let me give you an example of what God would never do. So, somewhere in the letters written by John and by Paul, we read that each of these men clearly refers to themselves as fathers over those God had allowed them to preach to and help bring into God's flock. Now, if you were to judge this, knowing that Jesus Christ clearly declared that none of His own are to be called Father over anyone in His fold, you would probably say that the Spirit of Truth is the one who specifically instructed that these apostles call themselves fathers over some of God's flock. Well, you would be wrong because Jesus Christ forbade such action, and since Jesus Christ made it clear that the Spirit of Truth would take from that which is His(His Truth /Teaching) to give to you, we know that the Spirit, therefore, cannot contradict Jesus Christ in this and so it is instead the case that John and Paul sinned by their action.

See how easy and straightforward that is? Now I ask you, why are you instead eager to throw God and His Truth under the Bus in order to further the lies of men? What does your soul really gain from such exercise?

Ephesians 4 v 11;
Now these are the gifts Christ gave to the church: the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, and the pastors and teachers.


But if you don’t subscribe to what Paul wrote up there, then here’s what the rock upon which Christ built the church (Apostle Peter) said concerning Paul;

2 Peter 3 v 15-16

15 Bear in mind that our Lord’s patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him.

16 He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.



So there you go. There are offices, roles, positions of leadership and structure in the church.

Just like an army. There’s the general, Lieutenant General, down to the foot soldiers.

Or like the body, there’s the head, arm, leg etc. Different roles, different functions, different levels of leadership. There’s order and structure in any body God sets up.

OkCornel:

Ephesians 4 v 11;
Now these are the gifts Christ gave to the church: the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, and the pastors and teachers.
But if you don’t subscribe to what Paul wrote up there, then here’s what the rock upon which Christ built the church (Apostle Peter) said concerning Paul;

2 Peter 3 v 15-16
15 Bear in mind that our Lord’s patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him.

16 He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.

So there you go. There are offices, roles, positions of leadership and structure in the church.
Just like an army. There’s the general, Lieutenant General, down to the foot soldiers.
Or like the body, there’s the head, arm, leg etc. Different roles, different functions, different levels of leadership. There’s order and structure in any body God sets up.

You have not been paying attention at all, have you?

God Almighty told that He alone is everything where it concerns those who belong to Him. Yet, you are all too willing to call God liar for the sake of doctrines and traditions of men here?

Jesus Christ, the Law Himself, stated that none of His own should set themselves up as authorities over God's flock, but here you claim Jesus Christ a liar by the words of Paul and then Peter.

Do you not, even now, see where your trust continues to lie in these things? Do you not see that even now, you continue to do exactly that which I have already made clear as your pattern in these things?

Kobojunkiee:
You have not been paying attention at all, have you?

God Almighty told that He alone is everything where it concerns those who belong to Him. Yet, you are all too willing to call God liar for the sake of doctrines and traditions of men here?

Jesus Christ, the Law Himself, stated that none of His own should set themselves up as authorities over God's flock, but here you claim Jesus Christ a liar by the words of Paul and then Peter.

Do you not, even now, see where your trust continues to lie in these things? Do you not see that even now, you continue to do exactly that which I have already made clear as your pattern in these things?

God raised Moses to lead his flock.

Raised judges to put them in check.

Permitted the Israelites to have kings even though it was not His sovereign will.

Sent Prophets to communicate His plans to them.

Sent His son Jesus to the lost sheep of Israel.

Jesus sent his Apostles to all nations.

The Lord is the God of the Heavens and the Earth, yet sent men to lead his flock... but the church is exempted from having a structure without human shepherds in place? Really?

Nah...looking at the bigger picture, your position doesn’t add up. But it doesn’t matter, you’ll still believe what you want anyways so... no probs.

OkCornel:

God raised Moses to lead his flock.
Raised judges to put them in check.
Permitted the Israelites to have kings even though it was not His sovereign will.
Sent Prophets to communicate His plans to them.
Sent His son Jesus to the lost sheep of Israel.
Jesus sent his Apostles to all nations.

The Lord is the God of the Heavens and the Earth, yet sent men to lead his flock... but the church is exempted from having a structure without human shepherds in place? Really?

Nah...looking at the bigger picture, your position doesn’t add up. But it doesn’t matter, you’ll still believe what you want anyways so... no probs.

I showed you where the same God who used men to lead His people people swore that He would not do that again -that does not seem to concern you much since you are set on having your church leaders extolled.

I showed you where the same God who used men in the Old days to teach people about Himself, swore that it would not be so in His New Covenant, but for you, it seems what God says matters little since there are men who claim otherwise.

I showed you where the God who raised Judges over His people of Old, decreed that no longer will men judge His flock... but He alone will do that, but you are more interested in what role humans can play regardless.

I showed you where the same God who sent prophets to His people decide that instead, all those in His flock will be prophets(He installs His own Spirit in all of them), but you don't seem to care at all what He has said of this.

I showed you where Jesus Christ forbade His followers against occupying roles are leaders/authorities over the others in His flock, but you reject what Jesus said.

God knows those who belong in His Church/flock, the only one that matters. He knows His sheep and keeps them. He is the only Shephered over His flock. The only King in His Kingdom. But...

I am reminded of the weird sampling from Isaiah.. we beat the drums, you didn't dance...we sang you a dirge, you didn't clap..

Kobojunkiee:
I showed you where the same God who used men to lead His people people swore that He would not do that again -that does not seem to concern you much since you are set on having your church leaders extolled.

I showed you where the same God who used men in the Old days to teach people about Himself, swore that it would not be so in His New Covenant, but for you, it seems what God says matters little since there are men who claim otherwise.

I showed you where the God who raised Judges over His people of Old, decreed that no longer will men judge His flock... but He alone will do that, but you are more interested in what role humans can play regardless.

I showed you where the same God who sent prophets to His people decide that instead, all those in His flock will be prophets(He installs His own Spirit in all of them), but you don't seem to care at all what He has said of this.

I showed you where Jesus Christ forbade His followers against occupying roles are leaders/authorities over the others in His flock, but you reject what Jesus said.

God knows those who belong in His Church/flock, the only one that matters. He knows His sheep and keeps them. He is the only Shephered over His flock. The only King in His Kingdom. But...

I am reminded of the weird sampling from Isaiah.. we beat the drums, you didn't dance...we sang you a dirge, you didn't clap..

Egbon mi, make we die the matter sir.

Back to the topic biko...

OkCornel:

Egbon mi, make we die the matter sir.
Back to the topic biko...

ok

Kobojunkiee:
ok

Lol, why always that emoji though

OkCornel:

Lol, why always that emoji though

I see myself as more a skeptic so it appeals to me.

Kobojunkiee:
I see myself as more a skeptic so it appeals to me.

Fair enough

Angelmichael63:
If you don't pay TITHES AND OFFERING you are a thief and you are robbing God
MALACHI 3:8-12

And if you pay,is not longer your money/resources therefore whatever the TITHE is used for in the church does not concerns you

Since you have paid,you have obeyed the word of God and you are entitled to God's blessings pronounced for tither.

If pastors misuses it, Is between them and God for judgement and not you

If you are truly a Christian then you should believe every part of the scriptures and do your best to obey the scripture which is the word of God

THANK YOU ALL

IF YOU HAVE ANYTHING CONTRARY PLS BACK IT UP WITH SCRIPTURE ELSE, IS NOT LONGER A CHRISTIAN DOCTRINE.

I thought we were over these?

OkCornel:


I understand you my brother. I see beyond the money though.

Jehovah Jireh is the one who sustains His church (note, not man’s church we see littered everywhere which is nothing really close to the early church) whether there’s money or no money.

Some people make the mistake of limiting God to money, which is what I was trying to clarify from the first paragraph in your earlier post.

If true worshipers seek the kingdom of God and His righteousness, everything else will be sorted. God never leaves His own stranded. Sadly, people place more faith in money than they do in God. Hence, they’ll go to any lengths to twist scriptures just to extort money from ignorant people.

Ok, so what is God's righteousness that one must first find in order that one may then receive from God, all that one asks of Him?