I know the bible talks about submission. Some christians will tell you the bible said wives should submit to their husbands when they want to argue against feminism. I believe submission should be a both ways. You submit to me, me you. It's not a self marriage.
Why then do people and pastors only hammer on wives submitting?

Dreebieee:
I know the bible talks about submission. Some christians will tell you the bible said wives should submit to their husbands when they want to argue against feminism. I believe submission should be a both ways. You submit to me, me you. It's not a self marriage.
Why then do people and pastors only hammer on wives submitting?

1. Jesus Christ never taught any of His followers to submit to any man. Instead, He asserts that in His Kingdom, and for those who belong to Him, He alone is the only Master, Head, Shepherd, Teacher, Leader/Authority, Helper etc over all those who belong to Him.

2. Jesus Christ's instructions were clear when He declared that No one who belongs to Him can serve two Masters. So, any man who submits to another man is like one who practices Idol worship.

3. Therefore the teaching that a wife ought to submit to her husband or that a husband submit to his spouse, is not born of the teachings of Jesus Christ as it is against Jesus Christ, the one and only Head over all those who belong to Him.

Well said... Am a man(on becoming) but i don't see this submission has by force or something that's a must... To me "Understanding" is certainly the key. Like you rightly put it... I submit to you and you do likewise. It's more like respect is reciprocal....




























I dey your Back..

Naudeyrushme:
Well said... Am a man(on becoming) but i don't see this submission has by force or something that's a must... To me "Understanding" is certainly the key. Like you rightly put it... I submit to you and you do likewise. It's more like respect is reciprocal....
I dey your Back..

But Jesus Christ instructed His disciples against submitting to any other man or woman or child, instructing instead that they serve each other as servants in His name.

Kobojunkie:
But Jesus Christ instructed His disciples against submitting to any other man or woman or child, instructing instead that they serve each other as servants in His name.

PLol this made me remember the argument i had with someone recently regarding heaven and endtime... we only quote the part of the Bible that seems to be convenient for us... I can play this game. The same Bible says a man will leave his father and mother and marry his wife and they shall become one (equal).. not one submitting to the other or one being maid to the other... equals

Kobojunkie:
1. Jesus Christ never taught any of His followers to submit to any man. Instead, He asserts that in His Kingdom, and for those who belong to Him, He alone is the only Master, Head, Shepherd, Teacher, Leader/Authority, Helper etc over all those who belong to Him.

2. Jesus Christ's instructions were clear when He declared that No one who belongs to Him can serve two Masters. So, any man who submits to another man is like one who practices Idol worship.

3. Therefore the teaching that a wife ought to submit to her husband or that a husband submit to his spouse, is not born to the teachings of Jesus Christ as they are instead against Jesus Christ, the one and only Head over all those who belong to Him.

Bro, you have started this your narrative again. E ka Bible yí dada nah.

Dreebieee:
I know the bible talks about submission. Some christians will tell you the bible said wives should submit to their husbands when they want to argue against feminism. I believe submission should be a both ways. You submit to me, me you. It's not a self marriage.
Why then do people and pastors only hammer on wives submitting?

This will be abit long, try read through.

---

As Christians, we must first realize that Instructions in the NT didn't just come from apostles imagination, but from a proper study of the OT text by the apostles and the NT writers.

The teaching manuals of the apostles and all NT audience in their days was the OT writings. That means all they wrote by God's inspiration are traceable to the OT texts because that was what was available written in their time.

That means,
- Jesus teachings and instructions were taking and taught from OT. Luke 24:26,27,44,46
- Same as Peter, Paul and others.

This must form a good basis of our look at the NT texts.


That means, we can intelligently look at the NT texts and find out where the author or speaker is reading or teaching from because the book he would have opened when teaching is the OT text available to them.

Hence, on issue of submission, we must treat it as same.

---

So, the first question will be, what is submission?

By dictionary
the action of accepting or yielding to a superior force or to the will or authority of another person.

Bible usage (Greek)
The word is taken from the Greek text hupotasso
to arrange under, to subordinate
to subject, put in subjection
to subject one's self, obey
to submit to one's control
to yield to one's admonition or advice

It's the same word used for submitting to governmental authority.

hupotasso
is from the word tasso, which means to put to order.

That means the essence of submission is order. This is key.

---

In Ephesians, Paul gave us a proper context of how the husband and wife should live.

Ephesian 5
23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.

Observe that a key element of submission is to identify who leads or who is in charge (order). The head. Obviously you know you can't have two heads especially when we are talking of two persons. One should lead, the other follows. Note Paul also explain that the leading must be a product of love. That means the man considers to protect and love in his headship.


Now, observe Paul's parallel why submission in real sense cannot be both way.

he compared it to the relationship between Jesus and the church.

Ephesian 5
22 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.

23For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.

Now, I don't think anyone will ask a question why can't Jesus submit to the church. Or Jesus and the church submission must be both ways I.e. The church becoming the lord and direct Jesus. It can never be, the reason he is called our Lord. That means, the Master, the one in charge, the one we submit to.


Hence, our marriage must reflect this culture of Christ and the church. The bride and the groom. As Christ is the head, so is man the head of his family.


Headship is Responsibility not Commanding

Note, this again is not all about commanding, it's a responsibility. So that means the husband must look at how Christ leads, cherish, care for, trust, protect and love his church, and replicate the same in his home to his wife.

The moment we refuse to draw from this headship of Christ to lead in our homes, the art of submission will be lost.

---

Remember as I wrote earlier part, Paul surely was teaching from the OT text. He must have seen how,
- Sarah conducted herself with her husband Abraham, calling him Lord.
- He must have shown them how, Isaac and Jacob's wives were in total submission to their husbands.
- He must have shown them the refusal of Micah to submit to David but disdained him.
- He must have shown them how Lots wife ignored his husband direction and looked back. And several more.

These are practices and examples we had in the OT.


Ruth also exemplified this in her comment.

Ruth 1:16
And Ruth said, Intreat me not to leave thee, or to return from following after thee: for whither thou goest, I will go; and where thou lodgest, I will lodge: thy people shall be my people, and thy God my God:


A statement of total submission and acceptance.

This is the example you see in a believer today to Jesus. Total submission to Christ will. And likewise Jesus has demonstrated to us that being the head means responsibility, to the end that he laid down his life for the church. He demonstrated his love in this. That love is the leadership.

---

Now with this knowledge read below completely Paul's explanation of love and submission in the home as we see in Christ and the church

Ephesians 5
24Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.
25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
26That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
27That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.
28So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.

You could see that great parallel. Christ/Church, Husband/Wife.

Christ love is demonstrated in responsibilities.
He gave himself, sanctified the church, cleansed, washed, made it a glorious church, holy.

Those are the responsibilities he holds as the head of the church.

Paul then said likewise the man should do the same.

Therefore, the submission culture of wife to husband is a firm practice and teaching from the scriptures. This in no way placed the wife as inferior but as a vessel to protect and love. Hence she has a husband who should love in his role as the head of the family as Christ loved the church.

Naudeyrushme:

PLol this made me remember the argument i had with someone recently regarding heaven and endtime... we only quote the part of the Bible that seems to be convenient for us... I can play this game. The same Bible says a man will leave his father and mother and marry his wife and they shall become one (equal).. not one submitting to the other or one being maid to the other... equals

1. God's Law stands above any opinions of men, even those recorded in the letters written by the apostles. Regardless of the opinions of others , God's Law holds true and this above all.
The Key is every word out of God's own mouth is Truth and the words of men are lies until proven otherwise. In both the Old and a New Covenants, there are provided for us Laws to help us in deciphering that which is worthy of God and that which is not when dealing with the opinions of men. According to God, by the testimony/account of 2 or 3 (different) witnesses shall a Truth be established.

Again, in whatever situation, that which God has declared holds True no matter the opinions of men. And no man has authority, whatsoever, to add to or remove from God's very own Law. His Law is everlasting and unchangeable.

2. According to the New Covenant Law In the Kingdom of God , there is only one Teacher, one Shepherd, one Master, one Fathed, one Head, one Leader/Authority, one Helper, one Comforter, one Counselor, one Father, over each one who belongs to Jesus Christ.

Each and every follower of Jesus Christ submits to and obeys the teachings and commandments of Jesus(Law)... as we are all equal and Jesus Christ alone is Head over each and everyone who belongs to Him - Matthew 23 vs 7 - 10.

So, the idea of submission in marriages, as preached even in the letters of the apostles Paul, stands in direct contradiction of Jesus Christ, the New Covenant agreement between God and each one who belong to Him. And common sense tells us that there cannot exist any contradiction where Truth is concerned...so Let God be True and man the liar even in this!.

hupernikao:

Bro, you have started this your narrative again. E ka Bible yí dada nah.

What is written for us all to follow is God's everlasting Law. If you have a problem with God's Law, face God... He is one to question even in this.

Kobojunkie:
1. God's Law stands above any opinions of men, even those recorded in the letters written by the apostles. Regardless of the opinions of others , God's Law holds true and this above all.
The Key is every word out of God's own mouth is Truth and the words of men are lies until proven otherwise. In both the Old and a New Covenants, there are provided for us Laws to help us in deciphering that which is worthy of God and that which is not when dealing with the opinions of men. According to God, by the testimony/account of 2 or 3 (different) witnesses shall a Truth be established.

Again, in whatever situation, that which God has declared holds True no matter the opinions of men. And no man has authority, whatsoever, to add to or remove from God's very own Law. His Law is everlasting and unchangeable.

2. According to the New Covenant Law In the Kingdom of God , there is only one Teacher, one Shepherd, one Master, one Fathed, one Head, one Leader/Authority, one Helper, one Comforter, one Counselor, one Father, over each one who belongs to Jesus Christ.

Each and every follower of Jesus Christ submits to and obeys the teachings and commandments of Jesus(Law)... as we are all equal and Jesus Christ alone is Head over each and everyone who belongs to Him - Matthew 23 vs 7 - 10.

So, the idea of submission in marriages, as preached even in the letters of the apostles Paul, stands in direct contradiction of Jesus Christ, the New Covenant agreement between God and each one who belong to Him. And common sense tells us that there cannot exist any contradiction where Truth is concerned...so Let God be True and man the liar even in this!.

Madam I not against submission. But to be truthful and candid to ourselves, there is a limit to everything. If one is pushed to the wall they will surely get frustrated and fight back. The fact that one is being submissive and understanding then one shouldn't be taken for granted. That's why i keep saying its a two way thing. Personally am not looking for a submissive wife and am not looking for a disobedient one either. I want to marry my best friend who understands me perfectly not a robot that does everything I say.

Have a Blessed day koko.

I meant Kobo

Kobojunkie:
What is written for us all to follow is God's everlasting Law. If you have a problem with God's Law, face God... He is one to question even in this.

Bro, e shaa ma ka bible yin sha

Naudeyrushme:


PLol this made me remember the argument i had with someone recently regarding heaven and endtime... we only quote the part of the Bible that seems to be convenient for us... I can play this game. The same Bible says a man will leave his father and mother and marry his wife and they shall become one (equal).. not one submitting to the other or one being maid to the other... equals

Firstly, your explanation of ONE FLESH is not what the writer intended.
ONE there is not speaking of equality. Note one flesh , not equal flesh.

the word one flesh is from the Greek text "mia sarx". It literally means one body
mia is actually derived from heis lifted directly from Hebrew word echad, which is a count of one. It means just one, not two becoming equal.

---

ONE FLESH NOT EQUAL FLESH. (Ephesians 5)

Observed that the scripture you quoted above also referred to Christ and the church relationship, yet the headship of Christ on the church cannot be disputed.
Paul quoted Genesis 2:24 and called it a mystery of Christ marriage to the church.

Ephesians 5
31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.
32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.
33 Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife see that she reverence her husband.

Hence the marriage of Christ and the church is the model marriage in the mind of God. This is where we draw our example and practices from.

So, can we say, in Christ/Church marriage, the head now takes instruction from the body? Or the church can start claiming equal superiority with his Lord. This is not true of the church.


The issues is when we see being submissive as turning to maid or as a robot we can command around, we will loose a key element of its reason. Leadership, headship in Christ is not for show of power but to protect those who you lead. A shepherd dont lead the sheep to show power, but to care, protect, nurture and love.

You must draw your example of headship from Christ and submission from the church not from the world. This is God's mind from Genesis and is seen all through the practices of the faithfuls in the scriptures.

Naudeyrushme:

Madam I not against submission. But to be truthful and candid to ourselves, there is a limit to everything. If one is pushed to the wall they will surely get frustrated and fight back. The fact that one is being submissive and understanding then one shouldn't be taken for granted. That's why i keep saying its a two way thing. Personally am not looking for a submissive wife and am not looking for a disobedient one either. I want to marry my best friend who understands me perfectly not a robot that does everything I say.

Have a Blessed day koko.

If you happen to be a follower of Jesus Christ, know that submission to any man, even in your marriages is antichrist, that is what I hope you are able to get from here.

To submit to a human,there is that need to put your trust in the human in question, but God already declared cursed any man who puts his trust in another man - cursed is he who makes flesh and blood his strength....Jeremiah 17 by 5

hupernikao:


This will be abit long, try read through.

---

As Christians, we must first realize that Instructions in the NT didn't just come from apostles imagination, but from a proper study of the OT text by the apostles and the NT writers.

The teaching manuals of the apostles and all NT audience in their days was the OT writings. That means all they wrote by God's inspiration are traceable to the OT texts because that was what was available written in their time.

That means,
- Jesus teachings and instructions were taking and taught from OT. Luke 24:26,27,44,46
- Same as Peter, Paul and others.

This must form a good basis of our look at the NT texts.


That means, we can intelligently look at the NT texts and find out where the author or speaker is reading or teaching from because the book he would have opened when teaching is the OT text available to them.

Hence, on issue of submission, we must treat it as same.

---

So, the first question will be, what is submission?

By dictionary
the action of accepting or yielding to a superior force or to the will or authority of another person.

Bible usage (Greek)
The word is taken from the Greek text hupotasso
to arrange under, to subordinate
to subject, put in subjection
to subject one's self, obey
to submit to one's control
to yield to one's admonition or advice

It's the same word used for submitting to governmental authority.

hupotasso
is from the word tasso, which means to put to order.

That means the essence of submission is order. This is key.

---

In Ephesians, Paul gave us a proper context of how the husband and wife should live.

Ephesian 5
23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.

Observe that a key element of submission is to identify who leads or who is in charge (order). The head. Obviously you know you can't have two heads especially when we are talking of two persons. One should lead, the other follows. Note Paul also explain that the leading must be a product of love. That means the man considers to protect and love in his headship.


Now, observe Paul's parallel why submission in real sense cannot be both way.

he compared it to the relationship between Jesus and the church.

Ephesian 5
22 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.

23For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.

Now, I don't think anyone will ask a question why can't Jesus submit to the church. Or Jesus and the church submission must be both ways I.e. The church becoming the lord and direct Jesus. It can never be, the reason he is called our Lord. That means, the Master, the one in charge, the one we submit to.


Hence, our marriage must reflect this culture of Christ and the church. The bride and the groom. As Christ is the head, so is man the head of his family.


Headship is Responsibility not Commanding

Note, this again is not all about commanding, it's a responsibility. So that means the husband must look at how Christ leads, cherish, care for, trust, protect and love his church, and replicate the same in his home to his wife.

The moment we refuse to draw from this headship of Christ to lead in our homes, the art of submission will be lost.

---

Remember as I wrote earlier part, Paul surely was teaching from the OT text. He must have seen how,
- Sarah conducted herself with her husband Abraham, calling him Lord.
- He must have shown them how, Isaac and Jacob's wives were in total submission to their husbands.
- He must have shown them the refusal of Micah to submit to David but disdained him.
- He must have shown them how Lots wife ignored his husband direction and looked back. And several more.

These are practices and examples we had in the OT.


Ruth also exemplified this in her comment.

Ruth 1:16
And Ruth said, Intreat me not to leave thee, or to return from following after thee: for whither thou goest, I will go; and where thou lodgest, I will lodge: thy people shall be my people, and thy God my God:


A statement of total submission and acceptance.

This is the example you see in a believer today to Jesus. Total submission to Christ will. And likewise Jesus has demonstrated to us that being the head means responsibility, to the end that he laid down his life for the church. He demonstrated his love in this. That love is the leadership.

---

Now with this knowledge read below completely Paul's explanation of love and submission in the home as we see in Christ and the church

Ephesians 5
24Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.
25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
26That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
27That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.
28So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.

You could see that great parallel. Christ/Church, Husband/Wife.

Christ love is demonstrated in responsibilities.
He gave himself, sanctified the church, cleansed, washed, made it a glorious church, holy.

Those are the responsibilities he holds as the head of the church.

Paul then said likewise the man should do the same.

Therefore, the submission culture of wife to husband is a firm practice and teaching from the scriptures. This in no way placed the wife as inferior but as a vessel to protect and love. Hence she has a husband who should love in his role as the head of the family as Christ loved the church.

Excellent Bro. Weldone!!

My name is Maximus i'm one of JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES, would you like me to join the ongoing discussion?

BabbanBura:


Excellent Bro. Weldone!!

Thank you Sir

Dreebieee:
I know the bible talks about submission. Some christians will tell you the bible said wives should submit to their husbands when they want to argue against feminism. I believe submission should be a both ways. You submit to me, me you. It's not a self marriage.
Why then do people and pastors only hammer on wives submitting?

Are you a feminist? Feminism is incompatible with Christianity.

1Sharon:
Are you a feminist? Feminism is incompatible with Christianity.

That is very untrue.

Kobojunkie:
That is very untrue.

Is there anything like equality between the sexes in the Bible?

1Sharon:

Is there anything like equality between the sexes in the Bible?

Yes there is! If you have spent time reading the book you would know what I know.

Kobojunkie:
Yes there is! If you have spent time reading the book you would know what I know.

Like?

1Sharon:

Like?

What?

1Sharon:


Are you a feminist? Feminism is incompatible with Christianity.

ehh, I didn't say I was a christian. And no, I believe you can be a christian and a feminist.

Dreebieee:

ehh, I didn't say I was a christian. And no, I believe you can be a christian and a feminist.

I think we need do define FEMINISM first before knowing whether a Christian could be a feminist or not!

The Creator has the ACCURATE knowledge of the making of both gender so i believe He's the one we should turn to on this issue.

Once again i am Maximus, one of JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES, would you like me to participate in the ongoing discussion?

Dreebieee:

ehh, I didn't say I was a christian. And no, I believe you can be a christian and a feminist.

It is not that you can.... it is more the case that ;

1. you cannot be a follower of Jesus Christ if you submit to any other master/head other than Jesus Christ.

2. you cannot be a follower of Jesus Christ if you sit as master/head over any other who belongs to Him.

So anyone who believes in the submission of women to men or men to women is against Jesus Christ.
And anyone who believes that a man or women is head/master like Jesus Christ, over another, is against Jesus Christ.

In the Kingdom of God, there is only one master and Jesus Christ proclaimed Himself that one and only Head/Master over each one who belongs to Him - Matthew 23 vs 6 - 10. Anyone else who attempts to share that seat with Him does so against Jesus Christ.

Dreebieee:


ehh, I didn't say I was a christian. And no, I believe you can be a christian and a feminist.

How? Have you read the Bible?

Dreebieee:
I know the bible talks about submission. Some christians will tell you the bible said wives should submit to their husbands when they want to argue against feminism. I believe submission should be a both ways. You submit to me, me you. It's not a self marriage.
Why then do people and pastors only hammer on wives submitting?

You know why!