Jesus has spoken, c'est finis. We need you to speak more, especially to your so called Men of God.

Just wait to see the price when the subsidy is removed

I hope that for once that PDP government would stop being the puppet of the World Bank / IMF though.

We need a government that would take decisions for the benefit of Nigeria and Nigerians and not because IMF dictated to them.

Lets watch this space.

queensmith:

So who exactly is being subsidised here because fuel is still very expensive??

I honestly think too many people on this forum are bodered about how to sustain the existing poor masses than how to move the mass of poor people out of poverty into the middle class,
To me all the present policies and laws of the country sustain poverty, if we can close our eyes to the existing poverty and realise that before any good thing comes along, there has to be some suffering, then we will appreciate the need to remove subsidies i.e nothing good comes easy, We need to remove subsidies very quickly.
But removal of subsidies alone cannot change or improve the lot of the nigerian masses, I am thinking a major atitude change by majority of the middle class(as withnessed here in NL) and leadership from overbearing socialist tendencies where the government is deeply involved in business to a more capitalist nature where government is lean, mean and concentrated more on regulation for the benefit of the country.

The fact that The federal and state governments don't depend on peoples taxes to survive means that whould not be answerable to the people.
Removal of subsidies should not come in isolation as the solution to anything, afterall, coruption will quickly erode the gains of any savings,

Whats needs to be none,
1-Quickly privatise all its commercial interest NNPC, NFA, Nigerian air-waste, NEPA etc etc etc, taking care to accomode all the six zones.
2-Bottom to Top model of revenue generation otherwise know as the federal system be properly implemented, All government revenue should come from taxes, individuals-lgas-states-fg, not the other way round.
3-Allow for a free market economy that encourages local production capacity, we are seriously dependent on foreign manufactured goods, Imagine local operating refinaries that sources all/majority of their spares locally,

In summary removal of subsidies is the best way forward if 9ja government is ready to overhall its model of doing things,
presently there are too many people that have built up a system based on sharing of oil revenues, and if this continues we will continue thinking of how to sustain poverty of the masses for many years to come.

GenBuhari:

Just wait to see the price when the subsidy is removed

I hope that for once that PDP government would stop being the puppet of the World Bank / IMF though.

We need a government that would take decisions for the benefit of Nigeria and Nigerians and not because IMF dictated to them.

Lets watch this space.

GenBuhari,
Govt providing everything free is getting us nowhere fast, free education, free health, free poverty etc,
Subsidies should not come in blanket reduction of prices across board, they should be strategic to achieving a goal, encouraging competition or improving local capacity or something sensible, they way it is practiced in nigeria just encourages laziness nothing more, nothing less, we have been subsidizing life in 9ja since independence and we are still very good neigbours with poverty, lets try something else,

A lean mean government focused on regulations only

Reference:
I say they should remove the subsidy and government get out of the industry NOW!!! not tomorrow. Do we know how much petrol used to cost when this IMF debate started in the eighties N4.00 a litre. Now its N65.00. Has the heavens fallen. No. Instead of properly administering this subsidy wahala Nigerians have resisted proper pricing and the government has resisted proper investment, yet the price has crept up. Whether we like it or not if crude prices remain north of 100 dollars the price we pay for petrol will get to that much feared N100 per litre sooner or later. Our oil industry is on life support and we keep postponing urgent surgery for short term palliatives. Nigeria needs the private sector. That is the future. Let's stop kidding. Government cannot handle this thing.

Its time we hold them to account. Yes we will pay more for fuel if NNPC and all its assets are sold but the rewards are clear. Efficiently run refineries and distribution by the likes of Shell and AGIP. Then if government wants subsidies it will be paper for paper. You tender your poverty card and get stamps. For those who say crude oil is cheap or free so petrol should I simply laugh. If a river runs through your backyard does that equate to the whole town lining at your door steps day and night for free water. It will cost you something to serve them. The Niger-Delta has paid a higher price than we care to admit. We should pay properly to have their environment put right and the peoples properly compensated.

Once it was said private telecoms will kill us all. We know better today. We pay our bills without subsidy. If we cannot afford cards we do without it. So is electricity, fuel, food or anything else. I refuse to accept electricity or petrol is any different. Nothing is compulsory in the quantities we wish. Crude oil is not oxygen. It is not free. Use what you can afford and run your life according to your abilities.

I will also liken the call of some for the present subsidy to exist while the same government builds new refineries as a family that cooks and eats out regularly. Collosal waste. If you can buy and sell refined products at any price like Saudi Arabia, then why bother refine. Refineries like home cooking are for those who have the basic economic sense, desire independence and have an eye for quality. The IMF is not asking us not to refine. It did not tell us to import. It is we Nigerians out of greed and profiteering that ended up like this so why blame IMF for telling us the truth. Dear forumites if we are going to spend $350 million a month on subsidies and $5 billion dollars a year on new refineries at the same time then when the next thread on power supply, education and roads comes let us ask where we expect the government to get all this money simultaneously and spend it without causing the inflation we are so worried about particularly when we don't want to pay for it.

Let us start a culture of paying properly for what we use whether rich or poor. There are poor people in every nation as there are subsidies in every nation as there are proper businesses controlling economies in every nation. There is in the US too the rain of $4.00 dollar petrol with some not covered by social security. Are all our fellow forumites out there in Yankee covered by US subsidy too. If we don't learn how to develop our economic muscles by taking the horns of tough financial decisions now, the day this crude oil will finish, hmmmm,

Great write up, we are just too socialist in nature,

DaLover:

I honestly think too many people on this forum are bodered about how to sustain the existing poor masses than how to move the mass of poor people out of poverty into the middle class,
To me all the present policies and laws of the country sustain poverty,  if we can close our eyes to the existing poverty and realise that before any good thing comes along, there has to be some suffering, then we will appreciate the need to remove subsidies i.e nothing good comes easy, We need to remove subsidies very quickly.
But removal of subsidies alone cannot change or improve the lot of the nigerian masses, I am thinking a major atitude change by majority of the middle class(as withnessed here in NL) and leadership from overbearing socialist tendencies where the government is deeply involved in business to a more capitalist nature where government is lean, mean and concentrated more on regulation for the benefit of the country.

The fact that The federal and state governments don't depend on peoples taxes to survive means that whould not be answerable to the people.
Removal of subsidies should not come in isolation as the solution to anything, afterall, coruption will quickly erode the gains of any savings,

Whats needs to be none,
1-Quickly privatise all its commercial interest NNPC, NFA, Nigerian air-waste, NEPA etc etc etc, taking care to accomode all the six zones.
2-Bottom to Top model of revenue generation otherwise know as the federal system be properly implemented, All government revenue should come from taxes, individuals-lgas-states-fg, not the other way round.
3-Allow for a free market economy that encourages local production capacity, we are seriously dependent on foreign manufactured goods, Imagine local operating refinaries that sources all/majority of their spares locally,

In summary removal of subsidies is the best way forward if 9ja government is ready to overhall its model of doing things,  
presently there are too many people that have built up a system based on sharing of oil revenues, and if this continues we will continue thinking of how to sustain poverty of the masses for many years to come.

So because the govt doesn't depend on income taxes, it shouldn't care about the welfare of its people.
Name one country that privatised all its public corporations and was better for it. Brazil and China are exponents od State Capitalism; they are both doing very well. There are arguments for and against all types of government; the the key is for a nation to select the type of govt that suits it best.
Name one country that depends solely on taxes; just one. Also, since the revenue of Nigeria should come only from taxes, what should Nigeria do with its reserves? Should it give it to charity? Why can Nigeria not pool all its revenues (taxes and revenue from natural resources, agriculture, etc).
If a majority of Nigerians are living on $2 a day, do you honestly think that the govt will be able to function with taxes from its citizens?

Did you bother to read the entire thread before you jumped in? If you did, why did you ignore valid questions that were raised such as endemic corruption and incompetent and corrupt leadership. If you didn't, then take the time to go through the thread first. Do you envisage that all you advocated would be achievable without visionary and competent leadership?

Please don't come back with a free market doctrine; address the issues that are bedeviling Nigeria and stop focusing on some utopian idealism.

Katsumoto:

So because the govt doesn't depend on income taxes, it shouldn't care about the welfare of its people.
Name one country that privatised all its public corporations and was better for it. Brazil and China are exponents od State Capitalism; they are both doing very well. There are arguments for and against all types of government; the the key is for a nation to select the type of govt that suits it best.
Name one country that depends solely on taxes; just one. Also, since the revenue of Nigeria should come only from taxes, what should Nigeria do with its reserves? Should it give it to charity? Why can Nigeria not pool all its revenues (taxes and revenue from natural resources, agriculture, etc).
If a majority of Nigerians are living on $2 a day, do you honestly think that the govt will be able to function with taxes from its citizens?

Did you bother to read the entire thread before you jumped in? If you did, why did you ignore valid questions that were raised such as endemic corruption and incompetent and corrupt leadership. If you didn't, then take the time to go through the thread first. Do you envisage that all you advocated would be achievable without visionary and competent leadership?

Please don't come back with a free market doctrine; address the issues that are bedeviling Nigeria and stop focusing on some utopian idealism.

So until we get visionary and competent leadership, it's subsidies all the way?   Why don't we demand and insist on competent leadership in the same way that we demand for fuel subsidy?  Subsidies are always available until the money runs out. Then what?

Katsumoto:

So because the govt doesn't depend on income taxes, it shouldn't care about the welfare of its people.
Name one country that privatised all its public corporations and was better for it. Brazil and China are exponents od State Capitalism; they are both doing very well. There are arguments for and against all types of government; the the key is for a nation to select the type of govt that suits it best.
Name one country that depends solely on taxes; just one. Also, since the revenue of Nigeria should come only from taxes, what should Nigeria do with its reserves? Should it give it to charity? Why can Nigeria not pool all its revenues (taxes and revenue from natural resources, agriculture, etc).
If a majority of Nigerians are living on $2 a day, do you honestly think that the govt will be able to function with taxes from its citizens?

Did you bother to read the entire thread before you jumped in? If you did, why did you ignore valid questions that were raised such as endemic corruption and incompetent and corrupt leadership. If you didn't, then take the time to go through the thread first. Do you envisage that all you advocated would be achievable without visionary and competent leadership?

Please don't come back with a free market doctrine; address the issues that are bedeviling Nigeria and stop focusing on some utopian idealism.

AMEN!

kulutempa:

So until we get visionary and competent leadership, it's subsidies all the way?   Why don't we demand and insist on competent leadership in the same way that we demand for fuel subsidy?   Subsidies are always available until the money runs out.  Then what?

When the oil runs out, the thieves at the centre will disappear. With nothing to steal, only those interested in turning things around will seek office.

Katsumoto:

When the oil runs out, the thieves at the centre will disappear. With nothing to steal, only those interested in turning things around will seek office.

Haba, there is always something to steal in Nigeria if you look hard enough.

kulutempa:

So until we get visionary and competent leadership, it's subsidies all the way?   Why don't we demand and insist on competent leadership in the same way that we demand for fuel subsidy?   Subsidies are always available until the money runs out.  Then what?

Do you remember demanding fuel subsidies? I don't remember Nigerians doing that, even worse, we just had an election and yes, we DEMANDED the leaders we got. So, for those who know what is likely to follow, subsidy is better than nothing, at the end of the day.

I hate to repeat myself but again we have about 80% of the country living below the poverty line. Trying to tax the already poor makes no sense of any kind. We have resources and those resources make us money we can use. If we need to make demands, we ought to demand that more of that money(much of which is wasted each year) be used to develop infrastructure, and help us get out of depending so much on the subsidy.

And for pete's sake, can you people please shove that whole "Nigerians like everything free" mentality, along with the "All those who do not see that we do not need subsidies are socialists" thinking back up the pie-hole from whence it came. Open your eyes to the reality of the problem in the country --- we can all read and spew forth text-book solutions as well, but this is the real world we are talking of here. Text-book solutions rarely ever work if you do not TAILOR it to the very situation you are to deal with.

[b]I honestly think too many people on this forum are bodered about how to sustain the existing poor masses than how to move the mass of poor people out of poverty into the middle class,
To me all the present policies and laws of the country sustain poverty,  if we can close our eyes to the existing poverty and realise that before any good thing comes along, there has to be some suffering, then we will appreciate the need to remove subsidies i.e nothing good comes easy, We need to remove subsidies very quickly.
But removal of subsidies alone cannot change or improve the lot of the nigerian masses, I am thinking a major atitude change by majority of the middle class(as withnessed here in NL) and leadership from overbearing socialist tendencies where the government is deeply involved in business to a more capitalist nature where government is lean, mean and concentrated more on regulation for the benefit of the country.

The fact that The federal and state governments don't depend on peoples taxes to survive means that whould not be answerable to the people.
Removal of subsidies should not come in isolation as the solution to anything, afterall, coruption will quickly erode the gains of any savings,

Whats needs to be none,
1-Quickly privatise all its commercial interest NNPC, NFA, Nigerian air-waste, NEPA etc etc etc, taking care to accomode all the six zones.
2-Bottom to Top model of revenue generation otherwise know as the federal system be properly implemented, All government revenue should come from taxes, individuals-lgas-states-fg, not the other way round.
3-Allow for a free market economy that encourages local production capacity, we are seriously dependent on foreign manufactured goods, Imagine local operating refinaries that sources all/majority of their spares locally,

In summary removal of subsidies is the best way forward if 9ja government is ready to overhall its model of doing things,
presently there are too many people that have built up a system based on sharing of oil revenues, and if this continues we will continue thinking of how to sustain poverty of the masses for many years to come.
[/b]
Too much of rhetorical argument without  taking into account facts on the ground. How is Nigeria a socialist driven country when it does not have  any social security of safety net for  her citizens?
Where is free education? Where is constant power supply? Where is unemployment benefit? Where is security?
IMF is telling us how to run our economy while its' Chief who is alleged to have sexually assaulted a woman who came to clean his $3000/per nite suite is telling us to tighten our belt.

BTW, why is the present government saying that all the federal agencies that were privatized are badly run by Nigerians? Where are Transcorp and Nicon, NITEL  etc? Corruption is killing us not subsidies. African farmers make the best cotton in the world, but American cotton  farmers who produce at higher prices sell cheaper because of farm subsidies from US government.

Katsumoto:

So because the govt doesn't depend on income taxes, it shouldn't care about the welfare of its people.
Name one country that privatised all its public corporations and was better for it. Brazil and China are exponents od State Capitalism; they are both doing very well. There are arguments for and against all types of government; the the key is for a nation to select the type of govt that suits it best.
Name one country that depends solely on taxes; just one. Also, since the revenue of Nigeria should come only from taxes, what should Nigeria do with its reserves? Should it give it to charity? Why can Nigeria not pool all its revenues (taxes and revenue from natural resources, agriculture, etc).
If a majority of Nigerians are living on $2 a day, do you honestly think that the govt will be able to function with taxes from its citizens?

Did you bother to read the entire thread before you jumped in? If you did, why did you ignore valid questions that were raised such as endemic corruption and incompetent and corrupt leadership. If you didn't, then take the time to go through the thread first. Do you envisage that all you advocated would be achievable without visionary and competent leadership?

Please don't come back with a free market doctrine; address the issues that are bedeviling Nigeria and stop focusing on some utopian idealism.

Hey Mr don't ask me stupid questions about reading the thread before I jumped in, keeping to your points would do just fine, its also quite daft telling not to come back with free market doctrine, Another arogant posture based on your superiority complex disposition,

the federal government and the 37 states are so large today, because nobody seems to be able to inspire creativity amongst the populace, large government because they want to be involved in everything, collecting dustbins, providing danfo busses, providing okada, government should stay out of business, provide subsidies where they are need in the form of tax breaks, outright dispensing of cash should be avoided like a plague, government this and government that,

World with the phenomenon of capitalism is gradually taking hold in otherwise strong communist countries like china and Russia, people like youo would rather move nigeria in the wrong direction,
Presently our policies are made based on the fact that there is a mass of poor people that need to be sustained, and this just kills us
--How can the poor people pay high nepa tariffs---so let govt run nepa
---How can the poor people pay for high petroleum product----so let govt run it NNPC
---How can the poor people pay for quality football matches---so let govt run NFA
---How can the poor people pay for telephone connectivity-----so let govt run Nitel
---How can the poor people pay for transport services-----so let govt run it,
-----How can the people watch tv at homeso let govt run it,

this is how we have been living since indepencence and it not getting us anywhere, the excuse for not providing efficiently run private services is that the poor masses will suffer, yes initially there will be suffering but on the long run we will be better off, compare the initial suffering that occured when the telecoms companies started in nigeria an now,
Nitel with 200,000 lines at 5naira a minute or GSM companies with 60million lines at 30naira a minute, is it so hard to see why gpovernment should step aside,

For your information the USA, Britain, France depend on only tax, how else do their government make money, apart from corporate and individual taxes, countries like britain, france and others in the EU that operated a lot of state owned outfits are gradually experimenting with m ore private sector involvement (this has not always worked as expected, but the general move is in that direction), In those countries it is generally accepted that government run organisations are less efficient, possessing less zeal and drive than privately run businesses in a competitive enviroment, if you throw in corruption into this the you have a whole new mix then you have the nigeria situation,

Government owning a business or deciding to subsidize any sector should be strategic and result in overall benefits in the long term, where the money is used to sustain poverty as is done here, i just have to say sorry for your future,


As for corruption being the root of our problems, I also disagree with you on this, because to me corruption is like a bacteria that thrives in a dirty enviroment, the dirter your environment, the more the bacteria spreads, and thats how corruption will continue to spread as long as the system structure engourages laziness, government patronages, very large unproductive governments, government involved in all and sundary, creating so many avenues and loopholes for corruption, the environment is such that corruption willl thrive, You can try to fight the corruption within the messedup enviroment like Buhari and ribadu did, but corruption will always fight back as it did with Ibb against Buhari in 1985 or against Ribudu with Ibori in 2008/9
Or you can start by fixing the structure, making the enviroment less suspecitble to corruption, as the telecoms sector was able to deliver connectivity to millions despite the corruption in the government, create competitive environments, side step corruption and make it much easier and more manageble to deal with.

Nigerian Government can depend on Tax, in fact the FG should depend on Tax from the states, states from LGAs, LGAs from wards and corporates entities, wards from council taxes of individuals, he who plays the piper dictates the tune, Government cannot be making money elswhare and dance to the tune of the masses, mind you Those earning less that $2 shouldn't pay taxes, but will look forward to paying as they rise into the middle class, owner of the land or sea own the oil underneath and should explored and pay taxes as well, simple

adconline:

Too much of rhetorical argument without taking into account facts on the ground. How is Nigeria a socialist driven country when it does not have any social security of safety net for her citizens?
Where is free education? Where is constant power supply? Where is unemployment benefit? Where is security?
IMF is telling us how to run our economy while its' Chief who is alleged to have sexually assaulted a woman who came to clean his $3000/per nite suite is telling us to tighten our belt.

BTW, why is the present government saying that all the federal agencies that were privatized are badly run by Nigerians? Where are Transcorp and Nicon, NITEL etc? Corruption is killing us not subsidies. African farmers make the best cotton in the world, but American cotton farmers who produce at higher prices sell cheaper because of farm subsidies from US government.

Well Nigerian want to hear that they will be given free education, free light, free unemployment, free this and free that, and the politicians promise that, only to discover that it is not possible to achieve because |Nigeria is actually a very poor country in every sense of those words, be it financial or human capital, a friend once told me when you are fighting an enemy, its better to deliver one powerfully blow than many small blows, Nigeria is fighting poverty and economic stagnation, and we have limited resources, to be able to channel this recourses properly by reducing corruption, you reduce corruption by reducing the size of government, to reduce the size of government by limiting government to regulations and policy making funded soley by taxation, A lean mean efficient government, with the private sector running move of the countries activities, includeing urban redevelopment and infrastructural development,

That whan strategic subsidies can come in, be used to uplift sectors for grater benefit, not national jamboree as it being practiced now,

@ dalover

I apologise if u found my tone condescending; that was not my intention.

That being said, I see a lot of things that may or may not happen in your post but there is no pragmatic solution. There is a teal danger that the subsidy can be removed; how do you propose that the ideas you speak of GET IMPLEMENTED in the current political dispensation and not in a state of Utopia?

Also, how do you mitigate against the negative effects of the removal from being felt by 80% of Nigerians? Please do not ignore the antecedents of the nigerian govt and politicians in your analysis.

Well Nigerian want to hear that they will be given free education, free light, free unemployment, free this and free that, and the politicians promise that, only to discover that it is not possible to achieve because |Nigeria is actually a very poor country in every sense of those words, be it financial or human capital, a friend once told me when you are fighting an enemy, its better to deliver one powerfully blow than many small blows, Nigeria is fighting poverty and economic stagnation, and we have limited resources, to be able to channel this recourses properly by reducing corruption, you reduce corruption by reducing the size of government, to reduce the size of government by limiting government to regulations and policy making funded soley by taxation, A lean mean efficient government, with the private sector running move of the countries activities, includeing urban redevelopment and infrastructural development,

You are off the mark, because the government has not done anything.So something near free does not exist in Naija. The Naija constitution stipulates that the govt shall provide social benefits to Nigerians. France provides free education up to university. Mind you IMF is headed by France. US provides free education up to High school and WorldBank is headed by US.

ESKOM, which is responsible for power in S/Africa is owned by the govt. Same with France. Public transport in the US is almost free- heavily subsidized by the government.

jesus has a point, if they remove the subsidy, nothing will change- theyll j ust bring another story.

jesus.:

peep are arguing against subsidy with little or poor information at their mercy.

The only thing i can more than 50% of the Nigerian populace is benefiting from the FG is PMS subsidy. At least my travels around Nigeria in the last couple of months suggests a uniformed price of PMS in states like Lagos Ogun, Oyo, Osun Edo Fct, Niger, etc at N65/litre. Meaning Nigerians that travel by car on board vehicles that run on Petrol benefits as well as average Nigerians that use small petrol generators tends to benefit as well.

A 1000watts generator requires about 5-8litres for a filled tank. At N65/litre a common man will need N520 to enjoy electricity which PHCN can supply FG will compound his problem by removing subsidy for him to buy fuel at N130/litre. Meaning 8litres will cost N1040 for a man that earns N18,000 minimum wage monthly. Remember he might have to keep buying petrol for more than 10 days as PHCN can guarantee regular Electricity


AGO, Kerosene and JET A1(Aviation Fuel) are alrady deregulated and Nigerian are crying for Help.

AG0= N160/N170 a litre

Kerosene = over N100 a litre

Jet A1= N170- N180/litre.


Allow the removal of subsidy and allow more money to be stolen by politicians. your senators and house of rep members are earning about N45 to N50 million each per quarter. Yet the 4billion being spent on Subsidy doesn't affect their salaries and allowances. N45million X over 300 house of rep members. N50million X 109 senators

Thank you jesus.

Kobojunkie:

Do you remember demanding fuel subsidies? I don't remember Nigerians doing that, even worse, we just had an election and yes, we DEMANDED the leaders we got. So, for those who know what is likely to follow, subsidy is better than nothing, at the end of the day.

I hate to repeat myself but again we have about 80% of the country living below the poverty line. Trying to tax the already poor makes no sense of any kind. We have resources and those resources make us money we can use. If we need to make demands, we ought to demand that more of that money(much of which is wasted each year) be used to develop infrastructure, and help us get out of depending so much on the subsidy.

And for pete's sake, can you people please shove that whole "Nigerians like everything free" mentality, along with the "All those who do not see that we do not need subsidies are socialists" thinking back up the pie-hole from whence it came. Open your eyes to the reality of the problem in the country --- we can all read and spew forth text-book solutions as well, but this is the real world we are talking of here. Text-book solutions rarely ever work if you do not TAILOR it to the very situation you are to deal with.

Oh come on, what about the NUC strikes against removal of subsidies during OBJ's regime. The bolded parts of your comment however suggests that you do agree that subsidies are wasteful and are not an efficient use of government revenues, which is effectively my position as well. As to your pie hole insult, the less said the better.

Katsumoto:

@ dalover

I apologise if u found my tone condescending; that was not my intention.

That being said, I see a lot of things that may or may not happen in your post but there is no pragmatic solution. There is a teal danger that the subsidy can be removed; how do you propose that the ideas you speak of GET IMPLEMENTED in the current political dispensation and not in a state of Utopia?

Also, how do you mitigate against the negative effects of the removal from being felt by 80% of Nigerians? Please do not ignore the antecedents of the nigerian govt and politicians in your analysis.

If you check my first input into this thread I stated that subsidies are really bad, but removal alone will not bring about the needed benefits, it need to come with a redical departure from socialist ways of thinking, a highly reduced government (to reduce coruption and focus government on it primary goals of being a netral umpire). These two things need to go hand in hand,

DaLover:

I honestly think too many people on this forum are bodered about how to sustain the existing poor masses than how to move the mass of poor people out of poverty into the middle class,
To me all the present policies and laws of the country sustain poverty, if we can close our eyes to the existing poverty and realise that before any good thing comes along, there has to be some suffering, then we will appreciate the need to remove subsidies i.e nothing good comes easy, We need to remove subsidies very quickly.
But removal of subsidies alone cannot change or improve the lot of the nigerian masses, I am thinking a major atitude change by majority of the middle class(as withnessed here in NL) and leadership from overbearing socialist tendencies where the government is deeply involved in business to a more capitalist nature where government is lean, mean and concentrated more on regulation for the benefit of the country.

The fact that The federal and state governments don't depend on peoples taxes to survive means that whould not be answerable to the people.
Removal of subsidies should not come in isolation as the solution to anything, afterall, coruption will quickly erode the gains of any savings,

Whats needs to be none,
1-Quickly privatise all its commercial interest NNPC, NFA, Nigerian air-waste, NEPA etc etc etc, taking care to accomode all the six zones.
2-Bottom to Top model of revenue generation otherwise know as the federal system be properly implemented, All government revenue should come from taxes, individuals-lgas-states-fg, not the other way round.
3-Allow for a free market economy that encourages local production capacity, we are seriously dependent on foreign manufactured goods, Imagine local operating refinaries that sources all/majority of their spares locally,

In summary removal of subsidies is the best way forward if 9ja government is ready to overhall its model of doing things,
presently there are too many people that have built up a system based on sharing of oil revenues, and if this continues we will continue thinking of how to sustain poverty of the masses for many years to come.

Look there is absolutely no way we can keep doing the samething and expect different results, instead of advocating for a fight against corruption, lets all fight for a system that encourages
1-Hardwork and productivity
2-reduced lines of responsibility, your council taxes to your elected neigbour etc
3-competitive neviroment
Starting to fight corruption right now is like trying to patch hole in a ship with a thousand holes, you will sink baby
I advocate for a change in the system of doing thing, GEJ's main focus should be to re-organise the way we go about business in 9ja

adconline:

You are off the mark, because the government has not done anything.So something near free does not exist in Naija. The Naija constitution stipulates that the govt shall provide social benefits to Nigerians. France provides free education up to university. Mind you IMF is headed by France. US provides free education up to High school and WorldBank is headed by US.

ESKOM, which is responsible for power in S/Africa is owned by the govt. Same with France. Public transport in the US is almost free- heavily subsidized by the government.

Hope you know that nigeria is far poorer than these countries you mentioned, provision of free services cost money to somebody, for a country without depth, even if nigeria was curruption free today, it wouldn't still make commercial sence to start with subsidies on petroleum products first, even in this rich countries you mentioned like france, there have been contract demonstrations because a number of these subsidies are becoming unsustainable, hence the constant labour strikes in France,

It has been prooven beyound reasonable doubt that Nigerian government cannot run any business, so why stating that ESKOM is SA is run by government?? I can say for sure that since ESKOM produces 40000MW when run by government, it may as well produce 60000MW in the hands of a private entity, Hence money is still beeen lost, all people in the canoe of government run businesses are try to jump to the speedboats of privately run environments, Government run businesses may give some good results in an environment of reduced corruption, but in Nigeria we have to find a way to sidestep corruption.
Lets change the way we run things

adconline:

You are off the mark, because the government has not done anything.So something near free does not exist in Naija. The Naija constitution stipulates that the govt shall provide social benefits to Nigerians.

The reason you feel that the government has not done anything is because of the way nigerians interprete the bolded,
Government tries to provide everything either free or at a subsidised rate
-Primary, secondary and university education, transportation busses, airlines, airports, power, telecommunications, fuel, water, loans, NNPC petro stations, pipelines, chuches, morsques, pilgramages, football and sports, radios stations, tv stations, etc, etc etc, I can go on and on,
Government is involved in almost everything you can think off, and what is it they say about a jack of all trades Master of none,

@DaLover no doubt your made some important argument but the core of your presentation - removal of subsidy- is trash.

And Scott Rogers of IMF knows nothing - he said "i[b]f all refineries are made to work as people have been canvassing for, the onus will still be on the owners of these refineries to decide whether to sell at the local price or take it outside the country to make more money[/b]" Hence saying we do not really need refineries to get down the price. He is wrong. If we have working refineries at least for domestic consumption the level of subsidy will reduce  drastically - not to mention the waste.

But let me come to your point on the removal of subsidy. This will not only be a blow to 90% of Nigerians but worst the negative effect will be felt in the market. Rise in the general level of prices of goods and services cannot be avoided, rise in transportation and a weaker naira.

Oil subsidy is the best thing Nigeria govt has ever done - and am not a socialist. In fact i am the biggest capitalist there is - but there is no such thing as pure capitalism. The united states subsides her farmers with a commitment that's twice bigger that the Nigeria budget.  The European union uses 40% of her budget for only farm subsidies. UK cattle receive 2 pounds subsidy each, everyday - - - - -subsidy has always been part of the game . .  don't be fooled by IMF Scott Rogers . .There is no plain field. this same people overturn Africa agriculture to the negative and caused hunger in Africa farmers with anti-subsidy sermons

DaLover:



The reason you feel that the government has not done anything is because of the way nigerians interprete the bolded,
Government tries to provide everything either free or at a subsidised rate
-Primary, secondary and university education, transportation busses, airlines, airports, power, telecommunications, fuel, water, loans, NNPC petro stations, pipelines, chuches, morsques, pilgramages, football and sports, radios stations, tv stations, etc, etc etc, I can go on and on,
Government is involved in almost everything you can think off, and what is it they say about a jack of all trades Master of none,

When, where or how has the Nigerian government done those characters in bold? can please give an 'emperical' proof?

NB i mean[b] 'empirical'[/b] proof

DaLover:

The reason you feel that the government has not done anything is because of the way nigerians interprete the bolded,
Government tries to provide everything either free or at a subsidised rate
-Primary, secondary and university education, transportation busses, airlines, airports, power, telecommunications, fuel, water, loans, NNPC petro stations, pipelines, chuches, morsques, pilgramages, football and sports, radios stations, tv stations, etc, etc etc, I can go on and on,
Government is involved in almost everything you can think off, and what is it they say about a jack of all trades Master of none,

I so much agree with this post.

Government is the problem not the solution, i made that argument several times and it does not refute Oil subsidy. Subsidizing petroleum products places the economy in a better position because every other thing is linked to it.

It is funny how the core message of Scott Rogers's presentation is "don't bother about Refinarry ". IMF, World bank and WTO are dangerous triad. . Don't take advice from them

kulutempa:

Oh come on, what about the NUC strikes against removal of subsidies during OBJ's regime. The bolded parts of your comment however suggests that you do agree that subsidies are wasteful and are not an efficient use of government revenues, which is effectively my position as well. As to your pie hole insult, the less said the better.

um . . . Ok. But we did not demand the subsidy in the first place. It came as a cushion to the increasing prices of petroleum products -- a situation that still exists. No we did not demand it in the first place, but yes, we do demand it stay.

Pie hole insult? That is not an insult but simply a request for people to stop trying to rationalize their side of this by claiming some form of superiority over the other side in this. The Nigerian problem has absolutely nothing to do with whether you are a capitalist or a socialist or whatever else you want to fancy yourself to be. When you are dealing with a country with almost 80% poor, you open your eyes to make sure you have a good understanding of the situation.

Last I checked fuel is NOT FREE and people still pay a great portion of their income to purchase the good. Yes, Naira 65-80 might seem like 'chicken change' to those of us who live abroad and are semi-adjusted but it remains that that amount to majority of Nigerians, is a significant amount out of their pay. Government subsidizing this has little to do with whethere it is socialist or not. Fact is about 80% of the population lives in poverty. Allowing them fall deeper into poverty is NOT, I repeat NOT in the best interest of the nation.

jesus.:

When, where or how has the Nigerian government done those characters in bold? can please give an 'emperical' proof?

NB i mean[b] 'empirical'[/b] proof

I swear if an outsider was reading that they will think Nigeria is the best place to be!

yeswecan:

@DaLover no doubt your made some important argument but the core of your presentation - removal of subsidy- is trash.

And Scott Rogers of IMF knows nothing - he said "i[b]f all refineries are made to work as people have been canvassing for, the onus will still be on the owners of these refineries to decide whether to sell at the local price or take it outside the country to make more money[/b]" Hence saying we do not really need refineries to get down the price. He is wrong. If we have working refineries at least for domestic consumption the level of subsidy will reduce  drastically - not to mention the waste.

But let me come to your point on the removal of subsidy. This will not only be a blow to 90% of Nigerians but worst the negative effect will be felt in the market. Rise in the general level of prices of goods and services cannot be avoided, rise in transportation and a weaker naira.

Oil subsidy is the best thing Nigeria govt has ever done - and am not a socialist. In fact i am the biggest capitalist there is - but there is no such thing as pure capitalism. The united states subsides her farmers with a commitment that's twice bigger that the Nigeria budget.  The European union uses 40% of her budget for only farm subsidies. UK cattle receive 2 pounds subsidy each, everyday - - - - -subsidy has always been part of the game . .  don't be fooled by IMF Scott Rogers . .There is no plain field. this same people overturn Africa agriculture to the negative and caused hunger in Africa farmers with anti-subsidy sermons

It not what Rogers said or didn't say, if you ask me I will not remove subsidies now because, I can't reform the government? If our government is going to reform, then remove subsidies, and if they must be added, it must be done more sensibly that it is now, for instance, those refineries selling thier refined products locally will pay much less tax than those that choose to export, just an idea(may not be full proof), but anything to avoid paying direct cash to importer and then turning to sell it cheaper, that is condusive enviroment for the bateria of curruption to grow,

Stop comparing Nigeria with UK, france, USA etc, these are rich countries with a very large middle classes, Taxes collected from the middle classes and the corporate world can fine tuned to enable tax breaks in sectors that are lagging behind, In Nigeria everything is lagging behind, They have almost proper demographic data bases of the population spread with respect to wealth. So that a good number of people that collect unemployment benefits are actually unemployed, In Nigeria, the governors will come up with poverty alievation program PAP, splash money here and there, buy motocycles and sewing machines for 500 people and think that something meaningfull has been achieved, Me make money first by deeping the economy and then provide benefits to people who need it, not the other way round, its like being in university and trying to take care of your siblings, it makes more sence to abandon them for fours year, concentrate hard on getting great results and a good job, then come around to provide support, alternatively you share your meager allowance with them, struggle to finish a four year course is 6 years, end up with a third class and you and your siblings continue suffering for the rest of your lifes, nothing good comes easy, you must suffer first.

jesus.:

When, where or how has the Nigerian government done those characters in bold? can please give an 'emperical' proof?

NB i mean[b] 'empirical'[/b] proof

Maybe you did not understand what I was trying to say, Let me repeat, The nigerian government is trying to provide all these things free or subsidised and ends up failing because it is overinvolved in too many unnecessary things,

My argument is government should hands off, concentrate on creating condusive environment and regulations.

besides what other empirical proof do you wnat, don't you live or havent you been to Nigeria,
How much did you pay in a nigerian federal university?
You runs your football in Nigeria?
Haven't you seen government owned transport vehicles?
Haven't you heard of government sponored pilgramages to holy lands?
Haven't you heard of Government owned radio stations?
Maybe you haven't heard of Nitel?
Or Nigerian Airways or virgin nigerian airways or what ever name?

and the most anoying NNPC petro-stations,

Look as long as we remain on the road to nowhere, we will get to nowhere

Guy i think u are actually equivocating or probably have little idea of what u meant or were saying

DaLover:
The reason you feel that the government has not done anything is because of the way nigerians interprete the bolded,
Government tries to provide everything either free or at a subsidised rate
-Primary, secondary and university education, transportation busses, airlines, airports, power, telecommunications, fuel, water, loans, NNPC petro stations, pipelines, chuches, morsques, pilgramages, football and sports, radios stations, tv stations, etc, etc etc, I can go on and on,
Government is involved in almost everything you can think off, and what is it they say about a jack of all trades Master of none,

After i read this, i requested for 'empirical' proof for ur statement which u haven't given till now and yet came up with something similar with no evidence to still prove that government is actually doing these much

DaLover:

Maybe you did not understand what I was trying to say, Let me repeat, The nigerian government is trying to provide all these things free or subsidised and ends up failing because it is overinvolved in too many unnecessary things,

Like what and what is the FG trying to provide free or Subsidized other than PMS?

DaLover:

My argument is government should hands off, concentrate on creating condusive environment and regulations.

Hands off what exactly? what are they doing now that citizens or the very poor man that lives in a one room that is yet to pay the rent of same will thank the government for?

DaLover:

besides what other empirical proof do you wnat, don't you live or havent you been to Nigeria,

My stay here often and travel out as well to compare standards of Living among countries

DaLover:

How much did you pay in a nigerian federal university?

Please ask any Unilag student how much fees that is being paid now. Call any Lasu student and ask same. Both are owned by Federal and state government respectively

DaLover:

You runs your football in Nigeria?

Is GEJ the sponsor of the Nigerian Premier league? or does he also sponsor the DSTV basketball league?

DaLover:

Haven't you seen government owned transport vehicles?

Like? OKay i know BRT in Lagos that charges almost samething commercial bus charge as well

DaLover:

Haven't you heard of government sponored pilgramages to holy lands?

How much is it compared with other Private pilgrimages operators

DaLover:

Haven't you heard of Government owned radio stations?

Like? Okay i know FRCN and NTA. Their advert rates is the most expensive in Nigeria and yet pay very little license renewal fee annually

DaLover:

Maybe you haven't heard of Nitel?

What about Nitel? Before advent of GSM it cost not less than N150,000 to have a mobile phone in 1998 and about N50,000 for fixed land line. These income accrues to me or the FG?

DaLover:

Or Nigerian Airways or virgin nigerian airways or what ever name?

My brother i am a local and international traveler. I board Air Nigeria for local travels. 1 hour to abuja is N16,000 and of course Aero could be cheaper. The income accrues to me? BTW the FG dont have 100% stake in Air Nigeria. OK?

DaLover:

and the most anoying NNPC petro-stations,

What about them? How much do they sell a litre of Fuel as against MRS, Total, Mobil etc?

DaLover:

Look as long as we remain on the road to nowhere, we will get to nowhere

Of course as long as we base our statement on non factual things and reality, we may have to continue like this.

I said 'empirical proof that govt does what You ve alleged they do above

cheers

Hope you know that nigeria is far poorer than these countries you mentioned, provision of free services cost money to somebody, for a country without depth, even if nigeria was curruption free today, it wouldn't still make commercial sence to start with subsidies on petroleum products first, even in this rich countries you mentioned like france, there have been contract demonstrations because a number of these subsidies are becoming unsustainable, hence the constant labour strikes in France.

South Africa has built over 2 million homes for her citizens since the end of Apartheid. Egypt has food subsidies and some other social programs; Botswana has a trust fund that benefits everyone in their country, Libya has a lot of social programs benefitting her citizens. Why are local petroleum prices highest amongst OPEC countries?

It has been prooven beyound reasonable doubt that Nigerian government cannot run any business, so why stating that ESKOM is SA is run by government?? I can say for sure that since ESKOM produces 40000MW when run by government, it may as well produce 60000MW in the hands of a private entity, Hence money is still beeen lost, all people in the canoe of government run businesses are try to jump to the speedboats of privately run environments, Government run businesses may give some good results in an environment of reduced corruption, but in Nigeria we have to find a way to sidestep corruption.
Lets change the way we run things.

[b]I was trying to state that not every government run entity is a failure in every country. Corruption is the problem in Najia; and it does not stop in government run companies, but prevalent in privately run companies. Cadbury’s Bunmi Oni and   failed Bank CEOs are example.
Saudi Aramco is the largest producer of crude oil in the world owned by Saudi government. Botswana is the best run country in Africa, yet the government is involved in mining and production of diamonds in the country. Debswana is a company in which the government has a majority stake and it’s doing well.
Mandela did not nationalize ESKOM, but white folks – who are synonymous with privatize everything – made it that way and it’s serving the purpose why it was created. You have not answered why France has government running power companies. Or why US government is running public rail transport system. Can you say the same thing of NEPA? Egypt and Libya have the same system.
Venezuela is another example in which the government runs refineries and her citizens are enjoying the benefits. PDVSA through its subsidiary, CITGO, owns and operates refineries in the USA. Its refineries are in Germany, UK, Belgium, Sweden and Caribbean.
The world’s largest energy company to fail was US ENRON which was privately run. Wall  Street companies that started the recession were 99% private entities.
[/b]
Quote from: adconline on Today at 04:14:48 AM
You are off the mark, because the government has not done anything.So something near free does not exist in Naija. The Naija constitution stipulates that the govt shall provide social benefits to Nigerians.

The reason you feel that the government has not done anything is because of the way nigerians interprete the bolded,
Government tries to provide everything either free or at a subsidised rate
-Primary, secondary and university education, transportation busses, airlines, airports, power, telecommunications, fuel, water, loans, NNPC petro stations, pipelines, chuches, morsques, pilgramages, football and sports, radios stations, tv stations, etc, etc etc, I can go on and on,
Government is involved in almost everything you can think off, and what is it they say about a jack of all trades Master of none

Restating what someone said: Any empirical proof that Naija government has done any of the above. What is the basic function of the government? For 50 years, the government has refused to provide basic necessities like health, roads, infrastructure, education and security in order for public enterprise to flourish. Why hasn’t  the government fixed the refineries since Abacha’s time? If the subsidies are removed, who gets the money if not Naija corrupt politicians? IMF is not mad that GEJ, governors and Co  shared over $30 billion from ECA in about 12months and they are lamenting that 150 million people get paltry $4.5 billion thru subsidies.

queensmith:

I swear if an outsider was reading that they will think Nigeria is the best place to be!

My sister. Maa wo n ti e.

What have we benefited directly from Nigeria Govt? Elctricity? Good health care, good roads, Security of Lives and properties? Someone please tell me if im missing something.

For the first time Ever in NIgeria, Babatunde Raji Fashola is the only Person that came close. I repeat came close to allowing residents of Lagos State to have something to point to as dividends of Democracy. Yet there's still many things that are yet to be done. Tinubu wasted 8 years in Lagos same way OBJ wasted our destiny for 8 Years

The only thing we directly benefit is subsidy of PMS which to many its still high at N65/litre for a country that is blessed with abundance of Crude oil.

The Niger Delta that is supplying the wealth is not even enjoying anything they are blessed with. SMH