N wa oo som peep still dey support remova of petrol subsidy?

I saw this thread. cost of living expensive for Nigeria ooooooooooooooooooooo

https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-669431.0.html#msg8339077

Rhino.5dm on Today at 04:25:18 PM]
That the fresh air they promise o!

@ Topic. The funny part is after paying that amount the satisfaction is very far to be met.
I used 15k/month. On my laptop with glo. Good speed, good download rate. Unlimited air time. Pay another 5k for my handheld device (this is not funny!)

Deposit 15k for post paid telephone which i normally balance like 5k.

Pay 5k/month for NEPA(public electricity which is not there) and fuel my gen with diesel of 25/month min.



But the sweet thing is all my income is almost TAX free!
[/quote]

[quote author=queensmith:

I swear if an outsider was reading that they will think Nigeria is the best place to be!

@jesus

Do you understand that government has tried to do everything and ends up doing nothing?
This statement is so simple, see no reason why you don't get my points?
I wonder if what I am writing is different from what you are reading,

When I was in the university of benin in the 90's the FG charged us less that =N=1,000 per accademic session,
Is this not subsidised? Has the university system not failed, Is this not an example of how government has tried to run university on subsidised rates and end up failing? Please what is emprical evidence? maybe I don't understand

The the FG not own a firm called Nigeria Airways in that became moribound in the 80s, Is this not an example of how FG tries to get involved in aviation business and failed, even tried again recently with virgin and failed, though this time at commercial rates?

Are you telling me that apart from BRT, you are not aware of the various state and LGA government owned transport accross the country? and you need me to supply you empricall eveidence that they charge cheaper than commercial transporters?

So you don't know where I want government to hands of from? Don't worry may next season you will know

So you are telling me that you don't know that NFA is a government organisation? Most football clubs in 9ja are state owned, the sponsorship of the league is just a recent phenomenon after the league crashed some years ago

Okay, come to number 15 olumu street off airport road warri, I will show you some imperical evidence you want, since you may not have observed this in the country.

You actually need me to tell you the cost difference btw government sponsored pilgrimage and private sponsored ones Just come to the above address for the exact breakdown,

For your information, the argument that government services charge the same for some of the services actually translates to a loss, due to inefficiency in operations, this means that cost of delivering the service will be higher than when privately driven,


@adconline
Very good examples of government run business in other countries,
But let me let you in on a secret you may not know, (such system has failed in nigeria!),

So what do we do next? keep on doing what we have been doing for the past 40years with no result? There is a distant posibility that a different outcome could actually emerge if we continue with our present structure, Maybe one day a powerful leader would emerge that would eradicate all these currupt aliens within our mist (I doubt they are related to me or you or any nairalanders) and we will live happly ever after,
We probably should reverse the telecoms de-regulation and go back to the nitel days and wait for the ministry officials to be cleaned by strong willed EFCC, Lets do it the botswana way,

Guys why don't you want a change?
A privately run system is always profitable but in the event of failure the loss is limited to the owners of the company, government can even provide a temporary bail out, but not to remain there parmanently,


Governments role
-provide a level playing filed for participants
-provide policies that would see the country move in a particular desired direction
-Monitor and regulate
-Cater for the haves nots

But even this calls for priorotization in the face of lean resources- and cater for haves not can not be the top priority,

@DaLover

I have read all your comments - your reasoning is subtle and often specious - the cleverness of your argument conceals the fact that you are arguing for a "one size fits all" capitalistic policy.  I agree with you that government run business is the cause of so many problems - be it healthcare, education, power, transport etc . .  they should all be privatised and keep the government as little as possible.

The issue i have here is the subsidy case  - i am a disciple of John Maynard Keynes and also a capitalist - mind you. The tacit message of IMF - that we should not worry about building refineries but remove subsidies instead - is not only vicious but also Silly - How can a major oil producer ship raw material oversea to refine and buy refined product back to its country . . .

But that's not the main point - Oil is free from the ground - if we take them and refine for domestic use then how will the govt not be able to control the price? The IMF guy is silly - we can exploit oil for domestic use and sell even 20 naira per gallon . The reason for subsidy in the first place is because we have to re-buy already refined products.  That is the point.

^^Why disturb yourself again? You have done a good job. The guy should go and find out how much EU spends on French farmers, yearly.



Nigerians MUST understand this:


Bretton Woods institutions are not there purely for economic policies. They are mainly political institutions but their MAIN purpose has always been carefully coated. And, it is POLITICS. FACT!

This guy is talking jargons.

The major difference between subsidies in the West and Nigeria that subsidies in the West tend to be TARGETED. In other words, subsidies is not given to everyone unlike the wasteful type we have in Nigeria. For instance, In the US, university subsidies (financial aid) are available to you if you can demonstrate need for it. In Nigeria, every public university student is subsidized irrespective of need or not. Subsidies in Nigeria is wasteful and unsustainable because it is given to everyone whereas you have to prove poverty in the West to get government subsidies and benefits.

For subsidies to make sense in Nigeria, it has to be targeted to a particular interest group If they can prove need for it based on their tax returns or any other proof. A blanket subsidization of everybody as is the case in Nigeria is irresponsible.

jesus.:

I said 'empirical proof that govt does what You ve alleged they do above
cheers

What happened to all the NITEL, PHCN, FAAN, NPA, UNILAG, Kings College, Nigeria Airways, UNILAG, NTA, FRCN, These are examples of what you asked for

kalokalo:

The major difference between subsidies in the West and Nigeria that subsidies in the West tend to be TARGETED. In other words, subsidies is not given to everyone unlike the wasteful type we have in Nigeria. For instance, In the US, university subsidies (financial aid) are available to you if you can demonstrate need for it. In Nigeria, every public university student is subsidized irrespective of need or not. Subsidies in Nigeria is wasteful and unsustainable because it is given to everyone whereas you have to prove poverty in the West to get government subsidies and benefits.

For subsidies to make sense in Nigeria, it has to be targeted to a particular interest group If they can prove need for it based on their tax returns or any other proof. A blanket subsidization of everybody as is the case in Nigeria is irresponsible.

That is NOT always true. Why is free healthcare not targeted in the UK? Freedom Pass for the elderly is STILL not targeted.

What you are asking for is NOT easy to implement.

jesus.:

My sister. Maa wo n ti e.

What have we benefited directly from Nigeria Govt? Elctricity? Good health care, good roads, Security of Lives and properties? Someone please tell me if im missing something.

For the first time Ever in NIgeria, Babatunde Raji Fashola is the only Person that came close. I repeat came close to allowing residents of Lagos State to have something to point to as dividends of Democracy. Yet there's still many things that are yet to be done. Tinubu wasted 8 years in Lagos same way OBJ wasted our destiny for 8 Years

The only thing we directly benefit is subsidy of PMS which to many its still high at N65/litre for a country that is blessed with abundance of Crude oil.

The Niger Delta that is supplying the wealth is not even enjoying anything they are blessed with. SMH

can u imagine!

this is exactly what i DONT understand! so are you people saying at the current price of fuel, the thing is subsidized? if its not subsidised nko??
Do these people not want ANYBODY to eat? Its hard enough, people are still dying of preventable and controllable diseases in that country, basic needs and requirements arent even being met and some people want to make life even HARDER?


Im never going to understand Nigerians. . . . . . . . . . . .never smh

Official: Oil prices impact on the US economy.

Looking from the 1970s forward, there are observable, and dramatic changes in GDP growth as the world oil price has undergone dramatic change. The price shocks of 1973-74, the late 1970s/early 1980s, and early 1990's were all followed by recessions, which have then been followed by a rebound in economic growth. The pressure of energy prices on aggregate prices in the economy created adjustment problems for the economy as a whole.

However, the sustained high level of oil prices has begun to effect core inflation (minus energy and food) through continued pressure on prices of other commodities, in the United States and worldwide. [/b]And as historical events suggest, a downward adjustment in the growth of economic activity might be expected. In 1999, the inflation rate for the Consumer Price Index (All Urban Consumers) was 2.2 percent and the core inflation rate was 2.1 percent. However, during 2000 the CPI inflation rate rose to 3.4 percent, led by energy prices. Moreover, the core inflation rate also rose to 2.4 percent. The economy was no longer able to absorb the energy price rise, and higher energy prices began to affect prices of other goods and services.

[b]Each of these events -- first falling, then rising energy prices -- undoubtedly had effects on the growth of the economy. To assess the economic impacts of these rapidly changing energy prices,

http://www.eia.doe.gov/oiaf/economy/energy_price.html


I hope this answers some questions.

Dalover

I'm pro capitalism, but if you remove the so called subsidies, Naija politicians WILL pocket the proceeds. The effects: prices will go up, everything will go up and masses will suffer, but politicians and their cronies will be throwing parties  and flying their wives, concubines and families to New York, Paris, London and Dubai for shopping.

Let the government build railway and put an end to power shortage, then they can kill the subsidy by having  functioning refineries.

In the USA, farmers are subsidized to 50 cents on a dollar.  Scottie Pippen, who played professional basketball for 17 years gets subsidies, Paul Allen, Microsoft Billionaire founder gets farm subsidies.  The big oil companies get big subsidies about $21 billion in 10 years. Wall Street got over $900 billion in bailout funds. Amtrak in the US is subsidized by the government.
Why are prices of petroleum cheaper in Libya that borders Egypt , Chad, Niger and Sudan where prices are higher? Why are prices cheaper in UAE, Saudi Arabia and Kuwait if not because of subsidies. Why does the state of Alaska give oil money to  every Alaskan from their oil wealth fund? Is that not subsidy?
Finally, there is a quota of pbd that has been assigned to NNPC for domestic consumption, so if it had been functioning at its near production capacity, it would be refining the assigned quota. Using NYMEX oil price as a benchmark is really flawed because the cost of Caterpillar Machines -made in the USA is not the same with similar machines shipped to Nigeria for oil exploration. It costs about 50-100% more in Nigeria, so why should Nigerians pay the same price with Americans when it comes oil that is produced in our back yard?
Reply

CIA website:

[b]Soaring oil prices between 2005 and the first half of 2008 threatened inflation and unemployment, as higher gasoline prices ate into consumers' budgets. [/b]Imported oil accounts for about 60% of US consumption. Long-term problems include inadequate investment in economic infrastructure, rapidly rising medical and pension costs of an aging population, sizable trade and budget deficits, and stagnation of family income in the lower economic groups.

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/us.html


How some people dey argue sef! SMH.

^^^Ekt-bear has abandoned this thread  . He's arguing about the US economy; that oil prices aren't a major cause of inflation.
^^This is the mighty US, do you still want to remove this subsidy (100%)?

Even a marginal increase will cause unemployment in the US and capable of being the cause of the demise of any party in power.

yeswecan:

@DaLover

I have read all your comments - your reasoning is subtle and often specious - the cleverness of your argument conceals the fact that you are arguing for a "one size fits all" capitalistic policy. I agree with you that government run business is the cause of so many problems - be it healthcare, education, power, transport etc . . they should all be privatised and keep the government as little as possible.

The issue i have here is the subsidy case - i am a disciple of John Maynard Keynes and also a capitalist - mind you. The tacit message of IMF - that we should not worry about building refineries but remove subsidies instead - is not only vicious but also Silly - How can a major oil producer ship raw material oversea to refine and buy refined product back to its country . . . But that's not the main point - Oil is free from the ground - if we take them and refine for domestic use then how will the govt not be able to control the price? The IMF guy is silly - we can exploit oil for domestic use and sell even 20 naira per gallon . The reason for subsidy in the first place is because we have to re-buy already refined products. That is the point.

It then means that you have failed to see the following points in my previous post or you fail to realise that subsidy discussion is multi-dimensional and cannot be solved in isolation
1-With the present political structure on ground, I don't support removal of retroleum subsidies
2-With an improved political and governmental structure that reduces corruption, removal of subsidies is necessary because the monies can channeled to areas with much greater long term effects,

These two points are the summary of what I have been saying, to be honest I haven't read what the IMF guy is saying because I don't care, as for the one size fits all theory you think I am proposing, check again! I am actually proposing that Nigeria takes a radical path towards development by concentrating first on deeping the economy and then latter come back to create sensible welfare schemes? not the other way round.

adconline:

Dalover

I'm pro capitalism, but if you remove the so called subsidies, Naija politicians WILL pocket the proceeds. The effects: prices will go up, everything will go up and masses will suffer, but politicians and their cronies will be throwing parties and flying their wives, concubines and families to New York, Paris, London and Dubai for shopping.

That is why I have said lets reduce curruption first by restructuring how we go about goveranance in nigeria

adconline:

Dalover

Let the government build railway and put an end to power shortage, then they can kill the subsidy by having functioning refineries.

This is a big NO NO, y should the government build you a railway or power facilities? How can you say this after seeing what has happened to all the things nigerian governments have built? can't you see more avenues for inefficiency and corruption? na wa ooo, the journey in the wilderness continues,

adconline:

Dalover

In the USA, farmers are subsidized to 50 cents on a dollar. Scottie Pippen, who played professional basketball for 17 years gets subsidies, Paul Allen, Microsoft Billionaire founder gets farm subsidies. The big oil companies get big subsidies about $21 billion in 10 years. Wall Street got over $900 billion in bailout funds. Amtrak in the US is subsidized by the government.
Why are prices of petroleum cheaper in Libya that borders Egypt , Chad, Niger and Sudan where prices are higher? Why are prices cheaper in UAE, Saudi Arabia and Kuwait if not because of subsidies. Why does the state of Alaska give oil money to every Alaskan from their oil wealth fund? Is that not subsidy?

USA, Libya, Saudi Arabia, UAE
-Is Nigeria as rich as this countries?
-Or are they as currupt as Nigeria?

So if you were made president of a very poor country that just discovered oil and you had just enough money for either of this two options
a-reduce the pump price by 50% through monthly cash payment to suppliers or
b-invest in industrialization, R&, design and engineering capacity, infrastructual development
which would you choose?

troy07:

This guy is talking jargons.

I take it that you tried to do some reasoning and this was your final output!

Thank God; better argument has prevailed. They NOW support the status quo, even DaLover.

It took 10 pages, though.

queensmith:

can u imagine!

this is exactly what i DONT understand! so are you people saying at the current price of fuel, the thing is subsidized? if its not subsidised nko??
Do these people not want ANYBODY to eat? Its hard enough, people are still dying of preventable and controllable diseases in that country, basic needs and requirements arent even being met and some people want to make life even HARDER?


Im never going to understand Nigerians. . . . . . . . . . . .never smh

Im happy u understand my point. Things are just not happening here. I cry when i drive around town and see parents or adults selling goods along the highway in traffic in order to make ends meet. This same peep will return home at night with no Electricity, no good pipe borne water, high cost of Kerosene to cook.I see peep live in one room apartment with no toilet having to excrete and poo into the drainge. I see peep old enough to be my parents beg money from me to feed or send their wards to school.

Despite OBJ shouting that he carried out Economic reforms in 8 years, conditions of peep in the country is worse off. I can boldly say that more than 70% live below poverty line. How many Nigerians have homes they bought or bulit in comparison to those that doesnt have? Someone pls anwser me.


I am comfortable and can afford to buy petrol at N150/litre but what about the multiplier effect on the less privileged? This is what i mean

A litre is N65. Just increase by N5 totalling N70, Aloaf of bread will be increased by N10 the next day. Price of paper will go up. Transport cost will be increased by over 20%. Textile materials will go up. so many things will be affected. I still maintain the earlier stance that the only thing Nigerians jointly enjoy from FG is PMS subsidy. A marginal incerase in price will cause a high corresponding increase in price of goods and services.

A barber that runs his shop on generator will increase cost of cutting the air of an adult say from N150 to N200 just becos PMS price has been increased by N5 or N10.


To me all known economic application or theory wouldn't work in Nigeria unless we have sincere and visionary leaders that will fix all infrastructural changes and make Nigeria work. The country has failed and its still failing.


For instance since the 18th of April after GEJ was elected, there have a drop in Power supply. Tell any Nigerian to testify if im lying. Its as if GEJ/PHCN waited till after the Election to strike, so his opponents wouldn't use that against him. The deregulated diesel with no subsidy cost Today N170/litre. We buy in our office 50 litres daily to use for 9 working hours, since there wouldn't be power supply during the officials hours save for Nights daily experience. Someone should just help me do the calculation of How much will expend for 22 working days to keep the lights on for 9 out of 24 hours in a day in my Organisation.


I really want to know what we benefit from the Nigerian govt in return for % deduction of my(our) income as tax. Absolutely nothing. Good road, Electricity, Constant water supply, Good health care facilities, Security? what naaa pls tell me

ola olabiy:


Thank God; better argument has prevailed. They NOW support the status quo, even DaLover.

It took 10 pages, though.

even DaLover??
Take a look at my first post on page 9 again.

I honestly think too many people on this forum are bodered about how to sustain the existing poor masses than how to move the mass of poor people out of poverty into the middle class,
To me all the present policies and laws of the country sustain poverty,  if we can close our eyes to the existing poverty and realise that before any good thing comes along, there has to be some suffering, then we will appreciate the need to remove subsidies i.e nothing good comes easy, We need to remove subsidies very quickly.
But removal of subsidies alone cannot change or improve the lot of the nigerian masses, I am thinking a major atitude change by majority of the middle class(as withnessed here in NL) and leadership from overbearing socialist tendencies where the government is deeply involved in business to a more capitalist nature where government is lean, mean and concentrated more on regulation for the benefit of the country.

The fact that The federal and state governments don't depend on peoples taxes to survive means that whould not be answerable to the people.
Removal of subsidies should not come in isolation as the solution to anything, afterall, coruption will quickly erode the gains of any savings,

Whats needs to be none,
1-Quickly privatise all its commercial interest NNPC, NFA, Nigerian air-waste, NEPA etc etc etc, taking care to accomode all the six zones.
2-Bottom to Top model of revenue generation otherwise know as the federal system be properly implemented, All government revenue should come from taxes, individuals-lgas-states-fg, not the other way round.
3-Allow for a free market economy that encourages local production capacity, we are seriously dependent on foreign manufactured goods, Imagine local operating refinaries that sources all/majority of their spares locally,

In summary removal of subsidies is the best way forward if 9ja government is ready to overhall its model of doing things,  presently there are too many people that have built up a system based on sharing of oil revenues, and if this continues we will continue thinking of how to sustain poverty of the masses for many years to come.

What do you think the bold statements implies?

I agree with Jesus. Can somebody create a comprehensive list with figures on what bthe govt is currently subsidising who exactly these subsidies are benefiting and a comparison with how things will be if subsidies are lifted.
Im dissapointed in the govt sponsored pilgramage scheme (if this is true) thats the stupidest thing ive ever heard. The govt needs to get its priorities in order pronto!

DaLover:

It then means that you have failed to see the following points in my previous post or you fail to realise that subsidy discussion is multi-dimensional and cannot be solved in isolation
1-With the present political structure on ground, I don't support removal of retroleum subsidies
2-With an improved political and governmental structure that reduces corruption, removal of subsidies is necessary because the monies can channeled to areas with much greater long term effects,

These two points are the summary of what I have been saying, to be honest I haven't read what the IMF guy is saying because I don't care, as for the one size fits all theory you think I am proposing, check again! I am actually proposing that Nigeria takes a radical path towards development by concentrating first on deeping the economy and then latter come back to create sensible welfare schemes? not the other way round.

That is why I have said lets reduce curruption first by restructuring how we go about goveranance in nigeria.

The problem with Nigeria is not corruption ! !  You hide your points behind grand words "present political structure on ground" and "reduce corruption",

It is too simple to say Corruption is the problem with Nigeria, in fact it is intellectual laziness to resort to that simple, and all too familiar answer to Nigeria questions. Don't tell me corruption is the reason for our closed Agriculture sector - mind you - before we discovered Oil we had growth figures that were from agricultural exports. Africa as a continent has to look beyond the corruption debate to understand where its problem lies - as far as i am concern.

Corruption is a tactical issue - we have a structural problem in Africa at large.

If i launch a review into a phase of Nigeria's problem i might bore you - but check this out. Africans are traditional farmers - the real problem with Africa i tell you is WTO, IMF and World Bank. Yes they are, and also US and EU agricultural subsidies which has been used intentionally to lockup Africa farmers. If there is really free trade i would be exporting cattle.s to England because beef here is highly demanded, highly subsidised (2 pounds=500 Naira subsidy to every cow a day) and yet very expensive. If there was a freedom of movement the whole Europe beef market would have been taken over by Africa farmers. Our advantage is farming - not banking. We have the highest arable land on planet earth (Africa i mean) and US subsidy on cotton alone is bigger than five Africa country budget combined to avoid us from taking over their market. As if that was not bad enough, the IMF and World Bank came and asked us to open up for remnant of EU and US subsidy dumping which subsequently kept our peasants of farming.

Agriculture is the advantage in Africa - not banking, manufacturing or technology.

The argument pushed forward by the IMF chief is dubious. He and his organization knew that but they were relying on their luck and on the fact that a lot of African leaders are too naive or carefree to read between the lines.

The fellow stated that the locally refined product will find its way to international market where more profits would be made. He may be right in that market forces will play their parts. However, he should remember that currently subsidized imported refined products could still, if allowed, find its way back to the international market for even much larger profit.

He should come to terms with reality that population pattern is changing across developing countries. Their (Imperialists') slavemasters who had been holding us back on the premise of some ambiguous IMF, World bank, bilderberg's group, paris club etc documents are already becoming irrelevant. Not only that, new generation with strong opinions and mindset are coming up. It should therefore be expected by IMF that no more free ride for them.

yeswecan:

The problem with Nigeria is not corruption ! !  You hide your points behind grand words "present political structure on ground" and "reduce corruption",

It is too simple to say Corruption is the problem with Nigeria, in fact it is intellectual laziness to resort to that simple, and all too familiar answer to Nigeria questions. Don't tell me corruption is the reason for our closed Agriculture sector - mind you - before we discovered Oil we had growth figures that were from agricultural exports. Africa as a continent has to look beyond the corruption debate to understand where its problem lies - as far as i am concern.

Corruption is a tactical issue - we have a structural problem in Africa at large.

If i launch a review into a phase of Nigeria's problem i might bore you - but check this out. Africans are traditional farmers - the real problem with Africa i tell you is WTO, IMF and World Bank. Yes they are, and also US and EU agricultural subsidies which has been used intentionally to lockup Africa farmers. If there is really free trade i would be exporting cattle.s to England because beef here is highly demanded, highly subsidised (2 pounds=500 Naira subsidy to every cow a day) and yet very expensive. If there was a freedom of movement the whole Europe beef market would have been taken over by Africa farmers. Our advantage is farming - not banking. We have the highest arable land on planet earth (Africa i mean) and US subsidy on cotton alone is bigger than five Africa country budget combined to avoid us from taking over their market. As if that was not bad enough, the IMF and World Bank came and asked us to open up for remnant of EU and US subsidy dumping which subsequently kept our peasants of farming.

Agriculture is the advantage in Africa - not banking, manufacturing or technology.

Excuse me yeswecan,  where have I ever said that corruption is the problem? please kindly identify that write up,
All my post have been about how the political and governmental structures existing today encourage corruption, I hope you are not interpreting this to mean I said that corruption is the source of Nigerias'problems,  I advice you re-read my post again,

I also commented about the need to change these socialistic structures, the need to start applying subsidies sensible and strategically. Please take care to digest the messages in my post before responding,

If i launch a review into a phase of Nigeria's problem i might bore you - but check this out. Africans are traditional farmers - the real problem with Africa i tell you is WTO, IMF and World Bank. Yes they are, and also US and EU agricultural subsidies which has been used intentionally to lockup Africa farmers. If there is really free trade i would be exporting cattle.s to England because beef here is highly demanded, highly subsidised (2 pounds=500 Naira subsidy to every cow a day) and yet very expensive. If there was a freedom of movement the whole Europe beef market would have been taken over by Africa farmers. Our advantage is farming - not banking. We have the highest arable land on planet earth (Africa i mean) and US subsidy on cotton alone is bigger than five Africa country budget combined to avoid us from taking over their market. As if that was not bad enough, the IMF and World Bank came and asked us to open up for remnant of EU and US subsidy dumping which subsequently kept our peasants of farming.

@ bolded, are you really sure about this I think this is lame talk, especially comming form someone you ought to know better,
Agreed that their policies may not favour us, because thay are generally made to favour the powerfull western interest,
But think about it, China, Taiwan, South Korea, India Brazil, etc where all in the same boat as Nigeria (On may be not exactly the same level) but are now emerging as strong economies. Are you going to say that these western sponsored bodies "WTO, IMF and World Bank"  didn't make the same unfavourable policies towards them,

The truth is the the problem lies nearer home, and from the bolded parts of your last post on below

If i launch a review into a phase of Nigeria's problem i might bore you - but check this out. Africans are traditional farmers - the real problem with Africa i tell you is WTO, IMF and World Bank. Yes they are, and also US and EU agricultural subsidies which has been used intentionally to lockup Africa farmers. If there is really free trade i would be exporting cattle.s to England because beef here is highly demanded, highly subsidised (2 pounds=500 Naira subsidy to every cow a day) and yet very expensive. If there was a freedom of movement the whole Europe beef market would have been taken over by Africa farmers. Our advantage is farming - not banking. We have the highest arable land on planet earth (Africa i mean) and US subsidy on cotton alone is bigger than five Africa country budget combined to avoid us from taking over their market. As if that was not bad enough, the IMF and World Bank came and asked us to open up for remnant of EU and US subsidy dumping which subsequently kept our peasants of farming.

Agriculture is the advantage in Africa - not banking, manufacturing or technology.

The problem appears deeper than I thought,
Hope you will acknoledge that the most industrilsed countries produce the highest amount of food, Agriculture can be a big advantage if we harness it with technology, we must industrialise to move forward,

Oil Subsidy in the US

I don't expect anything better from d IMF man if your refineries are working then less or virtually no export of crude oil again but probably export of refined fuel meaning they won't take our crude oil again then come back to sell refined oil to us as exhorbitant rate. Infact lets nationalise our oil.

DaLover:

Excuse me yeswecan,  where have I ever said that corruption is the problem? please kindly identify that write up,
All my post have been about how the political and governmental structures existing today encourage corruption, I hope you are not interpreting this to mean I said that corruption is the source of Nigerias'problems,  I advice you re-read my post again,

Honestly i read your post for the theme - not the direct message. I will provide you with the quotes :

2-With an improved political and governmental structure that reduces corruption, removal of subsidies is necessary because the monies can channeled to areas with much greater long term effects,

In this case your rationale for improvement of the our political structures is for reduction of corruption - this trend is common in your messages.

DaLover:


@ bolded, are you really sure about this I think this is lame talk, especially comming form someone you ought to know better,
Agreed that their policies may not favour us, because thay are generally made to favour the powerfull western interest,
But think about it, China, Taiwan, South Korea, India Brazil, etc where all in the same boat as Nigeria (On may be not exactly the same level) but are now emerging as strong economies. [/b]Are you going to say that these western sponsored bodies "WTO, IMF and World Bank"  didn't make the same unfavourable policies towards them

You are missing a serious point. As a capitalist i am sure you are familiar with the theory of comparative advantage - comparing Asia with Sub-Sharaha Africa is pointless because we have different advantages. On the surface, China is explioting its advantage with production of immitated and cheap goods  through 1)[b] cheap educated laborers . One of India's comparative advantage is garment production ; if you have any knowledge of the Britsih  textile industry you should probably know that. Africa's comparative advantage[b] is Agriculture[/b] - Get that - not manufacturing or banking,

If you agree that Nigeria has to divert from just Oil to a different sector - then what would that be ? I say Agriculture - don't hold your breath - hear my story

I will try to provide reference for every claims -

Africa after independent witnessed very high growth rate like Botswana immediate growth rate was 14.7 percent, Nigeria, Côte d’Ivoir, Kenya and Zimbabwe achieved more than 8% growth rate (United Nations Conference on Trade and Development, 2000 4). Agriculture was the sole driver of these figures. Some Africa countries were able to expand their agricultural products and export to Europe and Asia back in 60s and 70s thence increasing state revenue. For instance Hydén (2005) notes that “between 1966 and 1970 net agricultural export from the region averaged 1.3 million tons per year” (148). This trend was however reversed to complete closure of Agricultural export and dependency on Agricultural import by the Structural adjustment program. Agriculture was at the core of national policy in countries like Gambia, Côte d’Ivoire, Mali, Ghana and even Nigeria (before the discovery of Oil).The growing Agricultural sector in Africa at the point of independence was suppressed and reversed to the negative by aid conditionality mostly regarded as Structural adjustment program which Oxfam has described as “a disaster to development” (2002, 165).

I do not think IMF and World Bank purposely destroyed our economy, i don't. I however think they did destroy Africa social sector in an attempt to sell neo-liberal policies, or rather experiment Washington consensus. Even a chief economist of World Bank accepted that the program was a failure, in his words, “We did not think that the human costs of these programs could be so great, and the economic gains would be so slow in coming” (You can Google that)

Recently - Mark Malloch Brown, former head of the United Nations Development Program said, in his words, "It is the extraordinary distortion of global trade, where the West spends $360 billion a year on protecting its agriculture with a network of subsidies and tariffs that costs Sub-Saharan Africa about US$50 billion in potential lost agricultural exports " (Malloch Brown, 2002 in CEA Conference Oxford, July 2010). Mark Malloch Brown underestimated the figures

DaLover

Your grand design does not actually say where we can lead the world - i say Agriculture- you say what?. In the current game of globalisation the real competition is for market share. There is no way any country will develop in real terms without having a strategic advantage in production of a particular product - except you need a soviet-like socialist union.

DaLover:

The problem appears deeper than I thought,
Hope you will acknoledge that the most industrilsed countries produce the highest amount of food, Agriculture can be a big advantage if we harness it with technology, we must industrialise to move forward,

There has to be a motive for harnessing our agriculture with technology – and that motive is market. If there is no market no matter what you produce it is useless. The market is closed. In the United States and European Union, if a farmer experience loss the government pays for the lost product how can we trade in such climate?

My main argument is the closure of market by western government and closure of our domestic production capability by Breton Woods institutions.

You said "we must Industrilise" who can dissagree? but what do you mean by industrialize ? thats a loosed term- i take it to mean "develop industries". It is not the government that develope industries according to you, it is the private, yet you said "we must industrialise". Industrilization comes when there is market for a particular product and domestic producers go out of their way to increase production capacity through technology and the rest of them. .

seadoffx:

I don't expect anything better from d IMF man if your refineries are working then less or virtually no export of crude oil again but probably export of refined fuel meaning they won't take our crude oil again then come back to sell refined oil to us as exhorbitant rate. Infact lets nationalise our oil.

Good observation. this point has eluded most posters on this thread.

Odein Ajumogobia the ex Petroleum minister said after the cease fire at the Nigerdelta region, oil export capacity of Nigeria has increased a great deal. That Nigeria now export between 2million to 2.5million crude oil barrels a day.

The spokes person of NNPC Livi ajumona said Nigeria daily consumes between 30million to 50millions of PMs [/b]daily(excluding Jet A1, DPK and AGO). His statement translates to this:

[b]50million litres of crude oil is about 250,000 barrels of crude oil. If Refineries are working, From our daily export of[b] 2million barrels of crude oil, 250,000[/b] will be deducted for home consumption to be left with 1,750,000 barrels to be exported to the international market. This of course would affect the amount of crude export to the rest of the world, but would benefit Nigerians.

From the foregoing, who do u think IMF is really or Genuinely Fighting for? Nigeria or their own selfish ends?

I think they are more concerned with what goes out rather than what benefits the producing country. If The Nigeria Govt abides with this advice, then we aren't ready for change just yet

queensmith:

I agree with Jesus. Can somebody create a comprehensive list with figures on what bthe govt is currently subsidising who exactly these subsidies are benefiting and a comparison with how things will be if subsidies are lifted.
Im dissapointed in the govt sponsored pilgramage scheme (if this is true) thats the stupidest thing ive ever heard. The govt needs to get its priorities in order pronto!

I like your post and would respond soon to your request. However your signature gives me concern knowing that u are ____(fill in the gap). lol
U can just hit me up on the mail for discussion outside the forum

cheers