Kobo, I agree with you on the role of government and our responsibility as a people, of course we voted in looters in April, so they are worse than these companies.

Still we must point out the inadequacies of private businesses and their dishonorable practices. We can do both at the same time, it shouldn't be mutually exclusive really.

Sun of god:

I think it would be fair to say that wages should be linked to:

Profitability - The more the company earns, the more they pay the employees
Inflation - Price of goods and services rise, then so should wages
Living costs - Wages to refelect local living costs?

None of those things are relevant. Wage should be whatever the market demands. If I can find a guy to do your job for less money then you are asking, then who cares about any of the above factors?

I remember a couple years ago when I had to hire someone to design a website. Some guy wanted to charge me $75/hour for his labor. So it'd have cost me 2-3K. I asked him to justify the price. . . he gave me a bunch of reasons. Many of which I'm sure are good.

So what did I end up doing? I found two guys in Poland to do the job. I paid both of them combined $1K, saving an enormous amount of money and actually getting a better product than what the first guy wanted to sell me.

That is the way things should work. Let everyone compete. Workers compete against each other (thus driving down labor costs), employers compete against each other (thus driving UP labor costs.)

Ekt, I understand your argument, but remember, laying off hundreds of striking workers no matter how low-skilled they are comes at a cost, you'll have to hire new ones, build trust and give them some time to settle in, it will affect the bottom-line.

Anyway, I suspect we have ideological differences on this issue, so I will let it rest for now.

I believe the US government and others like it, pass minimum wage laws to reduce exploitation of citizens by corporations. In as much as coca-cola is not breaking any minimum wage law, the company cannot be accused of illegalities or immoral acts simply because it is practicing capitalism.

As someone mentioned earlier, if any employee believes that their pay is too low, he/she should look for another job. What people like Kilode! should do to make a difference is to organize protests and/or help the workers unionize, so that they can negotiate better working conditions. Jesse Jackson made millions of dollars for himself and many workers by shaking down corporations such as coca cola, for the kind of issues Kilode! is complaining about.

Kilode! and others, your poor brothers and low paid Nigerians await your leadership in this matter. Your brothers and sisters would also appreciate taking the government up on its responsibilities in this regard.

Kilode?!:

Still we must point out the inadequacies of private businesses and their dishonorable practices. We can do both at the same time, it shouldn't be mutually exclusive really.

But what HONOR do these companies owe you apart from that your government demands they pay you? It works most the same, even out here in the west. You expect from companies only that which is promised you.

ekt_bear:

None of those things are relevant. Wage should be whatever the market demands. If I can find a guy to do your job for less money then you are asking, then who cares about any of the above factors?

I remember a couple years ago when I had to hire someone to design a website. Some guy wanted to charge me $75/hour for his labor. So it'd have cost me 2-3K. I asked him to justify the price. . . he gave me a bunch of reasons. Many of which I'm sure are good.

So what did I end up doing? I found two guys in Poland to do the job. I paid both of them combined $1K, saving an enormous amount of money and actually getting a better product than what the first guy wanted to sell me.

That is the way things should work. Let everyone compete. Workers compete against each other (thus driving down labor costs), employers compete against each other (thus driving UP labor costs.)

None of the above are relevant?

In most developed nations there are labour laws that stipulate the minimum wage.

The wage level set is normally in relation to the cost of living.

Not just in the public sector but also in the private sector.

Hence employers find it harder to exploit workers as they may be fined by the Govt.

Nigeria does not have such enforcible laws - Hence Foreign and Private businesses can dictate the amount they pay their workers.

Interesting. Collective bargaining.

Kilode?!:

Ekt, I understand your argument, but remember, laying off hundreds of striking workers no matter how low-skilled they are comes at a cost, you'll have to hire new ones, build trust and give them some time to settle in, it will affect the bottom-line.

Anyway, I suspect we have ideological differences on this issue, so I will let it rest for now.  

Indeed. I'm mostly a free market capitalist sort of guy. . . I dislike price controls, minimum wages, things like that. I think they cause more harm than good (the death of Detroit and the manufacturing industry in the US being a pretty good example.)

Anyway, I guess you are much further to the left (not that there is anything wrong with that.)

Seun:

Interesting.  Collective bargaining.

What happened to Aisha2?

Did she also complain about her low pay?

(Evening Sir)

@Sun of god: Like I said, personally I don't believe in minimum wage laws. Now, if Nigeria has one and Coca-Cola is violating it, feel free to prosecute them for it. But if they aren't breaking any laws, then I don't see what the problem is.

ekt_bear:

@Sun of god: Like I said, personally I don't believe in minimum wage laws. Now, if Nigeria has one and Coca-Cola is violating it, feel free to prosecute them for it. But if they aren't breaking any laws, then I don't see what the problem is.

Do you think 'exploitation' is right?
Is/Was 'Slavery' justified?

Capitalism Sucks.

What does this have to do with slavery? 

Do you not know what a slave is?

Are I being enslaved if I'm a rice farmer and the price of rice plummets on the market?

Yes, capitalism sucks. That is why the best countries on earth are largely capitalist, and the worst ones are not. Just a coincidence

ekt_bear:

What does this have to do with slavery? 

Do you not know what a slave is?

Are I being enslaved if I'm a rice farmer and the price of rice plummets on the market?

Yes, capitalism sucks. That is why the best countries on earth are largely capitalist, and the worst ones are not. Just a coincidence

Slavery Is/was all about the 'exploitation' of human labour.

It still exists today - even in Nigeria.

Slavery was working for free or very little money with NO ability to leave.

It is the latter aspect that made slavery evil, not the former. These workers have the option of quitting. Slaves do not.

That is the key difference.

Anyways, not really interested in discussing this much further. . . we can agree to disagree.

ekt_bear:

Slavery was working for free or very little money with NO ability to leave.

It is the latter aspect that made slavery evil, not the former. These workers have the option of quitting. Slaves do not.

That is the key difference.

Anyways, not really interested in discussing this much further. . . we can agree to disagree.

Agreed

(But I was trying to keep my responses related to the 'threads title)

Ndu-chucks, we will respond more purposefully in due course, we are a work in progress  

Dunno about Jesse Jackson and his shake down efforts though, not trying to shake Coca-cola down.

Kobo, I believe I've said all I can say about how much we and our govt can do.

@ekt, maybe on some social and fiscal issues yes, I don't think I'm left like that though.

I don't believe many posters complaining about coca cola slavery have never had the pleasure or responsibility of meeting payroll for any company - even if the company has only one employee. You don't run a business by being a morality police, you play by the rules with the sole objective of maximizing shareholder value.

If a corporation can get away with making N1 per month, or N1 trillion per month, legally, then that's what they should do! Nigerian laws allows employers to organize and bargain - take advantage of that instead of whining. awon olodo.

ndu_chucks:

I don't believe many posters complaining about coca cola slavery have never had the pleasure or responsibility of meeting payroll for any company - even if the company has only one employee. You don't run a business by being a morality police, you play by the rules with the sole objective of maximizing shareholder value.

If a corporation can get away with making N1 per month, or N1 trillion per month, legally, then that's what they should do! Nigerian laws allows employers to organize and bargain - take advantage of that instead of whining. awon olodo.

+1

Government can be a charity, business should not. If I'm a shareholder in Coca-Cola or any other business, I want them to maximize their profit.

It isn't like people invest in businesses to get less-than-maximal return on investment.

Business Ethics

Coca Cola are more than familiar with the above discipline.

From what I see it doesn't apply to all 'countres' and all 'types of people'.

Capitalism Sucks,

I can't type long sermon from where I'm at right now but;

Ndu-chucks the other side can make the same argument you made; you can't understand how it feels until you are earning N400 per day in Lagos.

At the end of the day, both sides will fight for what will favor them. Everybody is important in this situation.

The problem with I have with the capitalism sucks crowd is that they are all largely hypocrites.

These are the same people typing away on their computers that "capitalism sucks" in obodo oyinbo. Or to China, Brazil, Japan.

If capitalism sucks so bad. . . why aren't ya'll moving to Cuba or North Korea?

On slavery or not slavery:

There are two terms that are important to keep in mind when analysing situations such as this:

De Jure and De Facto.  One is a condition that is actually written into law.  The other is not a law or a rule, but the condition exists and is so egregious that it constitutes a De Facto Discrimination/Situation/Exploitation, in this case, De Facto Slavery.  

The "employment" of the CCE/CCBC workers may not legally be that of unpaid slaves or indentured servants, but a condition can exist in fact (that is, in actuality) that is so similar, and for all intents and purposes follows the construct of a predatory exploitative relationship such as exist when a person is enslaved.  I am not saying they are in fact slaves.  But keep an open mind and use the terms in the future whenever exploited workers are fighting for their rights.  Courts routinely find on behalf of plaintiffs in such cases (where DeFacto conditions exist) so it is worth noting.

ekt_bear:

The problem with I have with the capitalism sucks crowd is that they are all largely hypocrites.

These are the same people typing away on their computers that "capitalism sucks" in obodo oyinbo. Or to China, Brazil, Japan.

If capitalism sucks so bad. . . why aren't ya'll moving to Cuba or North Korea?

If you disagree with something about the society in which you live, you are not precluded from challenging inequity simply because there are other benefits you derive from that society.  MLK did not leave USA and fight racial discrimination from afar.  That argument about "get the hell out if you don't like it" just does not hold any water!

Going back to Coca Cola Enterprises/Coca Cola Bottling Company; they have never sought to do the right thing in the community from which they benefit unless forced to do so.  They have faced class action racial discrimination lawsuits because they routinely bypass their black employees for promotion.  Their behavior is outrageous and blatant.  Of course they get away with it domestically, and internationally because they probably have more power than most countries.

Kilode?!:

LOL

Shhh, don't let them know the "Nigerian Workers Liberation Movement" has a secret weapon in their backyard, Let's see if they will play ball first. If they don't, then we will

Oga sir.  I'm fully covered and blended in.  I'm closer than close    Just say the word.

ekt_bear:

The problem with I have with the capitalism sucks crowd is that they are all largely hypocrites.

These are the same people typing away on their computers that "capitalism sucks" in obodo oyinbo. Or to China, Brazil, Japan.

If capitalism sucks so bad. . . why aren't ya'll moving to Cuba or North Korea?

Now you are arguing like Glenn Beck  

Capitalism does not suck, but extremes suck.

Money or capital are not the only factors of production, what about human labor? computers were made with labor too, so they deserve to b1tch and irritate you for higher wages.

The problem with your move to china argument is that you are complaining about an extreme position while suggesting another extreme, people don't just shoot themselves cause they are sad or depressed, human beings are generally rational actors. I'm sure there are people who think North Korea and Cuba sucks, but will never leave the country. Same for communist China. Does that nullify their argument?

Let's not dismiss their extreme argument with another extremity. BTW North Korea Sucks, but I'll move to Cuba in a heartbeat, those Cuban mami's do not sucx at all

We are in trouble, Isale is going to kill us with her professorial terminologies if we don't agree with her. Where is naijababe to save pesin?

Kilode?!:

. . . I'll move to Cuba in a heartbeat, those Cuban mami's do not sucx at all

Thought it was Brazil we you were moving to.  lol.

Kilode?!:

We are in trouble, Isale is going to kill us with her professorial terminologies if we don't agree with her. Where is naijababe to save pesin?

Bring out Katsumoto.  Naijababe doesn't scare me.  I know her secrets.

Kats sans his MASAMUNE or whatchumacallit sword doesn't scare me either.

@isale_gan2 and @Kilode?!:

No, you would not move to Cuba. Heh. You'd visit, but not move there.

Anyway, overall point is that free market capitalism largely speaking offers a better society than some sort of socialist, planned economy.
Also, I don't see what this has to do with Glenn Beck. I'm not saying "leave if you don't like it", I'm just saying. . . people have voted with their feet, and they've voted in overwhelming #s for capitalism. That should tell you that capitalism is more attractive than its competitors.

But that isn't really the topic of this thread I guess, more of a digression.

$2.60 is a good wage by most underdeveloped country's standards.

It is the cost of living in Nigeria which makes $2.60 a problem.

Ekt, of course capitalism is more attractive and that is because of several values embraced by the ideology itself, if we leave capitalism to the whims and caprices of charlatans, profiteers and "free market" extremists, I bet it will be as worse as North Korean Socialism, probably worse.

We allow several values i.e workers rights, sensible labor laws and other stuffs to determine the direction of our capitalism thereby perfecting it as we go.

I need my profit focused businessmen as much as I need by labor rights people.
BTW, I'll move to Cuba, my Orisa worshipping ancestors have a stake in that country

@isale, I added Cuba to the list, I'll alternate

Ibime:

$2.60 is a good wage by most underdeveloped country's standards.

It is the cost of living in Nigeria which makes $2.60 a problem.

I kinda agree with you, which is why I always wonder about people who are quick to call Nigerians welfarist or socialist people.

I mean, a country like Nigeria with such a high cost of living where every household is a local government unto itself, providing their own electricity, water, health services and even security. I can't imagine how we can refer to Nigerians as welfarist or socialist. Anyway, I digress, yes the cost of living in Naija makes a N400 wage almost criminal.

Like Beaf said yesterday or so, The Nigerian economy is beyond definition.

Is the NLC aware of this?

does anyone have any idea what it would mean if multinational corporations here in the west were allowed to exploit their employees the way they do  in third world countries, that would mean a return to the same living standards that many people lived under in the 19th and mid 20th century, where child labour was legal and where you could get beaten up by govt spies or goons for trying to form a workers collective or union- here in the west many people fought to get rid of these oppressive working conditions and i cant see anyone wanting a return to that period,

this is why govt workers in madison wisconsin in america came out en masse to challenge the governor's attempt to abolish collective bargaining rights - these are rights which have been in existence for years and protect workers from being treated in an unscrupulous manner by their employers, no right thinking person would give them up willingly, in nigeria workers do not have these luxuries -they are forced to put up with abusive and exploitative work practices - how can that be a positive thing?  the only people i see benefitting from this are coca cola's executives and their shareholders.
the best option open for the workers is to strike - i see no reason why they should carry on generating income and profit for employers who are unwilling to even treat them like human beings.