Jerryherd:

I don't know about the God in Bible especially new testament(Apostle Paul, Peter , disciples and Roman emperor Constantine's God)... But the God of Quran is the God of Abraham, Issaac and Moses, the God that instructed Moses on Mount Sina

Wrong!

The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob gave His people, Israel, His Law/Will through Moses and instructed them to submit to and obey that Law and that Law alone.

He then promised to bring to the same people, a new agreement through one of them, and that new agreement(Will) He gave again to Israel, and then blessed the nations of the world with.

This is diametrically opposed to what what Allah of the Quran did and so since the Wil of the Bible God is different from the Will of Allah, they are indeed not the same.

Jerryherd:

So typical
Emotional rather than objective

So tell me, what part of what I stated is of emotions you speak of?

Kobojunkiee:
Again, in Christianity, the idea of a virtuous women, even if you name her mariam, is meaningless.

So whatever was written of her matters for nothing.

The sooner as an African you understand that a Jew and an Arab both share Geographical space, same History, Mythology, Food, Similarity in language especially greetings, believe, Ancestors, and Prophets the better for you

Know this and know peace

Christianity according to how your colonial masters, Emperor Constantine and Apostle Peter presented it may lead you to miss out on important facts


.

Jerryherd:
The sooner as an African you understand that a Jew and an Arab both share Geographical space, same History, Mythology, Food, Similarity in language especially greetings, believe, Ancestors, and Prophets the better for you

Know this and know peace

Christianity according to how your colonial masters, Emperor Constantine and Apostle Peter presented it may lead you to miss out on important facts
.

This here has nothing to do with whether the jews and Arabs share geographical space or not. This is way beyond all that. It was made clear from beginning from Abraham that God's selection was that of bloodline and not geography,

The God of the Jews made it clear, over and over, that those He considers His people are those descended from Jacob the one called Israel...not just from Abraham. Jacob's is the bloodline He chose for Himself.

Arewalegend:
baba check Reno omokri last debate with daddy freeze i believe U no Sabi bible reach am... A book that's say drink and do not get drunk ... Like whats the pint there abeg...look seek for light, watch debate between Dr Zakir Naik and Dr William Campbell it's on YouTube

You're not in a position to know if I sabi Bible reach Omokri or not. I hope you know your Quran also first endorsed alchohol before forbidding it. The light of the world is Jesus Christ. Know this and know peace!

GenesisForum:


Reno Omokri, a former aide to ex-president Goodluck Jonathan, has dropped a bombshell on Christendom by revealing that God does not love Christians. In a debate with Daddy Freeze, entitled "Daddy Freeze Debates Reno Omokri: Should Christians Celebrate Christmas?", Reno argued that God loves Muslims particularly because they are obedient to Him and faithful to their scripture.

Christians, on the other hand, are alien to God, disobedient, unfaithful and impious. He ended his argument by begging Christians not to assassinate him.

The man shouldn't have stopped there, he should have gone on to state that God loves even the idolworshippers who bow to the will of their gods as well..

According to Jesus Christ, those who are His friends are those who live in continual submission to and obedience of His teachings teachings and commandments and these are those who are Sons of God , not just anyone who claims to be 'Christian'.

haekymbahdx:
If we are being honest. A Muslim by interpreting is someone who submits to the will of God.

Did Jesus submit to the will of God Yes.

Did he enjoin his followers to submit to the will of God Yes.

Mathew 7.

21 Not everyone who says to Me, Lord, Lord, will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father Who is in heaven.

John 5

30I am able to do nothing from Myself [independently, of My own accord--but only as I am taught by God and as I get His orders]. Even as I hear, I judge [I decide as I am bidden to decide. As the voice comes to Me, so I give a decision], and My judgment is right (just, righteous), because I do not seek or consult My own will [I have no desire to do what is pleasing to Myself, My own aim, My own purpose] but only the will and pleasure of the Father Who sent Me.


Muslim is an Arabic word. If you are trying to look for it in the English bible you should look for it's English equivalent of in Greek you look for it's Greek equivalent.


According to Islam a Muslim is one who submits to the will of God. Hence Jesus was a Muslim.

Muhammad came after him so he didn't follow Islam in particular same way Moses was not a christian wheareas Jesus was a Jew both are Muslim.

You are not being honest if you claim Jesus was a Muslim. If you say so. Then by inference, you are saying Christians are also Muslims since Christians follow the teachings of Jesus Christ.
I can also quote different parts of the scripture to show you where Jesus talked about things that are inconsistent with Islam, chief of which is calling himself the Son of God!!
Now a Muslim is someone who accepts Muhammad as the prophet of God and not only that, adheres to his teachings. Muhammad himself identified five pillars for Islam. Can you show Jesus carrying out this five pillars in his sojourn on earth? If you can't, why then do you claim him a Muslim when he never said La'ilah illalah. Muhammad rasulillah.
What you are attempting is called fallacy of generalization. You seek validation by claiming Jesus was Muslim. Orunmila and Obatala in Yoruba mythology also submitted to the supremacy of Olorun/Olodumare. Do you imply that they were also muslims practicing Islam there own way?

If Jesus was a Muslim, then why do you reject the practice of Christianity? If Moses was also a Muslim, why do you reject the practice of Judaism? Why do we even need Islam if Judaism and Christianity are also Islam? Is Allah engaging in confusion if he keeps repeating the same religion through different people with each claiming supremacy over the other?

Lastly, if Moses and Jesus were Muslims, then what exactly was the need for Muhammad and his Quran or practices?

Kobojunkiee:
He did.

Show illusttrations

Agboriotejoye:
Show illusttrations

He came to fulfill the Law meant He lived in accordance to the Law.
And He did so on behalf of the sinners(not the righteous) of Old Law whom He was sent to redeem and give a new agreement to.
That is why those who are called to be His followers are commanded by Him to do as He commands and not as He did. He even declared that His friends are those who do what He says(not what He did) - John 15 vs 14

Agboriotejoye:


You are not being honest if you claim Jesus was a Muslim. If you say so. Then by inference, you are saying Christians are also Muslims since Christians follow the teachings of Jesus Christ.

Yes christians who follow the true teaching of Christ are Muslims according to Allah.

Surah 3:55 - Behold! Allah said: "O Jesus! I will take thee and raise thee to Myself and clear thee (of the falsehoods) of those who blaspheme; I will make those who follow thee SUPERIOR to those who reject faith, TO THE DAY OF RESURRECTION: Then shall ye all return unto Me, and I will judge between you of the matters wherein ye dispute."

Now trinitarian christians are saying Jesus is God himself this is where the problem is anyone who doesn't follow the true teaching of the Gospel is heretic to Allah. According to Allah trinity is a false doctrine and the followers of such doctrine cannot be considered as Muslims as far as Islam is concerned. But any other sect of Christianity that follow the true teachings of Christ according to Allah which is beleive in only one God and also keeps the commandments of Jesus are considered Muslims as far as Islam is concerned Jesus said similar thing also

Mathew 7.

21 Not everyone who says to Me, Lord, Lord, will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father Who is in heaven.

Meaning not every christian is a Muslim. While All who does the father while being a christian are Muslims

Agboriotejoye:

I can also quote different parts of the scripture to show you where Jesus talked about things that are inconsistent with Islam, chief of which is calling himself the Son of God!!

Now Jesus is son of God Just like Angels, Adam, Beleivers, Isreal are God did not have any begotten son i.e God does not beget or is born. According to RSV bible the word begotten has been termed corruption of the bible. Meaning Allah was right with his claims

John 3:16 Begotten Son in King James Version is a Corruption and Word begotten has been removed by revised standards versions 32 Christians scholars backed uo by 50 Christians denominations of highest imminent:

Jesus called himself son of God he never said he was begotten son of God both means different things entirely.

Agboriotejoye:

Now a Muslim is someone who accepts Muhammad as the prophet of God and not only that, adheres to his teachings. Muhammad himself identified five pillars for Islam. Can you show Jesus carrying out this five pillars in his sojourn on earth? If you can't, why then do you claim him a Muslim when he never said La'ilah illalah. Muhammad rasulillah.

You got It wrong not all people who call themselves Muslims are Muslims. A Muslim who doesn't to the will of Allah won't make heaven either as far as Islam is concerned.

Each prophet had their own message and laws given to them. Moses and Abraham were not christians but we're Muslims because Christ has not even been sent at the time. The shaadah is to beleive there is only one God and the messengers including Jesus was sent by Allah. Jesus didn't mention Muhammad in his shaadah because Muhammad came after him but Jesus also made the shaadah

John 17

3 And this is eternal life: [it means] to know (to perceive, recognize, become acquainted with, and understand) You, the only true and real God, and [likewise] to know Him, Jesus [as the] Christ (the Anointed One, the Messiah), Whom You have sent.


Christians beleive Jesus was God himself meaning their shaahadah is not valid. According to Islam Trinitarian christians do not beleive in one God but 3 Gods in one. Which went against Abrahamic religion creed.

Agboriotejoye:

What you are attempting is called fallacy of generalization. You seek validation by claiming Jesus was Muslim. Orunmila and Obatala in Yoruba mythology also submitted to the supremacy of Olorun/Olodumare. Do you imply that they were also muslims practicing Islam there own way?

What qualifies one to be a Muslim is when you worship only one God, the God of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, Jesus, Muhammad e.t.c.

Allah does not want partner with him. But they worship their idols or messengers just like christians worship Jesus while they all know there is supreme being above which makes their faith invalid. In Islam Muhammad is just a prophet nothing same cannot be said of the others you mentioned. Their followers worship them as God.

Agboriotejoye:

If Jesus was a Muslim, then why do you reject the practice of Christianity?

We beleive in only one God if christians are proposing a 3 in 1 God then we will reject it because it went against the commandments of God and Jesus. There are christians who also beleive in only one God and are not Trinitarian so don't generalize that we reject Christians in total.

Agboriotejoye:

If Moses was also a Muslim, why do you reject the practice of Judaism?

We didn't reject their practice they wronged themselves by disbelieving in the messiah and were cursed by Jesus himself if they do not make ammend there is nothing we as Muslims can do about that. As mulims we beleive Jesus is the messiah but not God Almighty.

Mathew 23

37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, murdering the prophets and stoning those who are sent to you! How often would I have gathered your children together as a mother fowl gathers her brood under her wings, and you refused!

38 Behold, your house is forsaken and desolate (abandoned and left destitute of God's help). [I Kings 9:7; Jer. 22:5.]

39 For I declare to you, you will not see Me again until you say, Blessed (magnified in worship, adored, and exalted) is He Who comes in the name of the Lord!(F)

Agboriotejoye:

Why do we even need Islam if Judaism and Christianity are also Islam? Is Allah engaging in confusion if he keeps repeating the same religion through different people with each claiming supremacy over the other?

We need Islam because the previous religion had made rebellion against God by disobeying his commandments so God sent a warner to warn mankind. Muhammad was a warner and a prophet to remind the previous religions about their errors.

Allah SWT said:

"This [Qur'an] is notification for the people that they may be warned thereby and that they may know that He is but one God and that those of understanding will be reminded."
(QS. Ibrahim 14: Verse 52)

Agboriotejoye:

Lastly, if Moses and Jesus were Muslims, then what exactly was the need for Muhammad and his Quran or practices?

Allah SWT said:

"O People of the Scripture, there has come to you Our Messenger to make clear to you [the religion] after a period [of suspension] of messengers, lest you say, There came not to us any bringer of good tidings or a warner. But there has come to you a bringer of good tidings and a warner. And Allah is over all things competent."
(QS. Al-Maaida 5: Verse 19)

Muhammad was sent to make clear to the people of the scripture the religion and where they fall short and also prevent the passing of wrong doctrine to ignorant gentiles..

Kobojunkiee:
He came to fulfill the Law meant He lived in accordance to the Law.
And He did so on behalf of the sinners(not the righteous) of Old Law whom He was sent to redeem and give a new agreement to.
That is why those who are called to be His followers are commanded by Him to do as He commands and not as He did. He even declared that His friends are those who do what He says(not what He did) - John 15 vs 14

Here are examples of Jesus not living according to the law of Moses.
The adulterous woman in John 8 was supposed to be stoned to death according to Leviticus 20. But Jesus ruled otherwise
The disciples ate corns from the field without observing the cleansing ritual in Mark 7.
Turning water meant for purification to wine John 2

From here, you can see that Jesus changed the conclusion of Moses laws. It was this direct conflict with the laws of Moses that drew the ire of the Pharisees and Sadducees and made them agree on killing Jesus which was something that was not common with them.
Jesus' statement on fulfilling the law was not about the ceremonial laws of Moses which he described as given to the Jews cause of their "hardened hearts" Matt 19:8.
Rather, his fulfillment of the law was in the requirement of the law that "the soul that sinneth shall die" and the "wages of sin is death". That is the requirement of the law. So if he was to have the power to save from sin and death, he first had to fulfill the requirement of death even while having no sin. It was the fact that he had no sin yet faced death that made him a fulfiller of the law and therefore have power to justify those who believe in him not through the law but by his work of salvation

Agboriotejoye:

1. Here are examples of Jesus not living according to the law of Moses.
The adulterous woman in John 8 was supposed to be stoned to death according to Leviticus 20. But Jesus ruled otherwise
The disciples ate corns from the field without observing the cleansing ritual in Mark 7.
Turning water meant for purification to wine John 2

From here, you can see that Jesus changed the conclusion of Moses laws. It was this direct conflict with the laws of Moses that drew the ire of the Pharisees and Sadducees and made them agree on killing Jesus which was something that was not common with them.

---

2. Jesus' statement on fulfilling the law was not about the ceremonial laws of Moses which he described as given to the Jews cause of their "hardened hearts" Matt 19:8.
Rather, his fulfillment of the law was in the requirement of the law that "the soul that sinneth shall die" and the "wages of sin is death". That is the requirement of the law. So if he was to have the power to save from sin and death, he first had to fulfill the requirement of death even while having no sin. It was the fact that he had no sin yet faced death that made him a fulfiller of the law and therefore have power to justify those who believe in him not through the law but by his work of salvation

1. The Old Covenant Law of Moses and the Prophets is summed up in the observance of the 2 greatest Laws - Jesus Christ and the Pharisees informed you of this. So, it isn't the case that Jesus Christ did not observe the Old Law. No, He did and this by obeying the 2 two greatest laws.

2. There are 613 commandments, statutes and rules in the Old Covenant Law of Moses and anyone who faults one of those laws faults them. God's Laws are All or Nothing - anyone who breaks even of those commandments and statutes, has broken them all. Those of the Old Covenant know this and Jesus Christ reminded us of this too in His New Covenant to us.

3. As for what you said of the wages of sin, we'll, anyone who breaks even the least of the 613 laws sins against God and is hence to die. So, whether you want to label some of the laws ceremonial or not, does not matter as anyone who breaks any single one of the 613 is guilty of sin and condemned to die - Deuteronomy 30 vs 15 - 20

Agboriotejoye:


So Jesus was a Muslim right?

To buttress Reno's point, which tribe and religion has God prospered the most in Nigeria?
The Northern Muslims.

On this note it's safe to say that God has been faithful to the Muslims who are more faithful to him than Christians.

On this note, I and Reno resonate.

[

quote author=haekymbahdx post=105687083] Yes christians who follow the true teaching of Christ are Muslims according to Allah.

Surah 3:55 - Behold! Allah said: "O Jesus! I will take thee and raise thee to Myself and clear thee (of the falsehoods) of those who blaspheme; I will make those who follow thee SUPERIOR to those who reject faith, TO THE DAY OF RESURRECTION: Then shall ye all return unto Me, and I will judge between you of the matters wherein ye dispute."

There's nothing in this your post that proves your statement that Christians who follow the true teachings of Christ are Muslims. Jesus Christ said " Ye are my disciples if you do my word" in John 8. He never said they will be Muslims. Neither did the Surah you quoted say anything like that.

Now trinitarian christians are saying Jesus is God himself this is where the problem is anyone who doesn't follow the true teaching of the Gospel is heretic to Allah. According to Allah trinity is a false doctrine and the followers of such doctrine cannot be considered as Muslims as far as Islam is concerned. But any other sect of Christianity that follow the true teachings of Christ according to Allah which is beleive in only one God and also keeps the commandments of Jesus are considered Muslims as far as Islam is concerned Jesus said similar thing also

Mathew 7.

21 Not everyone who says to Me, Lord, Lord, will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father Who is in heaven.

Meaning not every christian is a Muslim. While All who does the father while being a christian are Muslims

John 10:30 "I and My Father are one"

Now Jesus is son of God Just like Angels, Adam, Beleivers, Isreal are God did not have any begotten son i.e God does not beget or is born. According to RSV bible the word begotten has been termed corruption of the bible. Meaning Allah was right with his claims

John 3:16 Begotten Son in King James Version is a Corruption and Word begotten has been removed by revised standards versions 32 Christians scholars backed uo by 50 Christians denominations of highest imminent:

Jesus called himself son of God he never said he was begotten son of God both means different things entirely.

Good you agree Jesus is the Son of God. Your problem is the word begotten. Well, why don't you check the meaning of begotten. It not only mean born, but also "cause to be". Jesus is the spirit that was caused by God to be the son of God not born by God. How that is, I will not delve into it but here is Jesus speaking in Proverbs 8:22-23 22

Jehovah possessed me in the beginning of his way, Before his works of old.
23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, Before the earth

It is also interesting to note that the tenets of Islam does not recognize anyone has God's son whether begotten or not. Instead, they including Muslims are known as "slaves". How then can someone who describes himself as God's son be called a Muslim?

You got It wrong not all people who call themselves Muslims are Muslims. A Muslim who doesn't to the will of Allah won't make heaven either as far as Islam is concerned.

Each prophet had their own message and laws given to them. Moses and Abraham were not christians but we're Muslims because Christ has not even been sent at the time. The shaadah is to beleive there is only one God and the messengers including Jesus was sent by Allah. Jesus didn't mention Muhammad in his shaadah because Muhammad came after him but Jesus also made the shaadah

John 17

3 And this is eternal life: [it means] to know (to perceive, recognize, become acquainted with, and understand) You, the only true and real God, and [likewise] to know Him, Jesus [as the] Christ (the Anointed One, the Messiah), Whom You have sent.


Christians beleive Jesus was God himself meaning their shaahadah is not valid. According to Islam Trinitarian christians do not beleive in one God but 3 Gods in one. Which went against Abrahamic religion creed.

Again, you are still yet to show how Abraham and Moses were Muslims. Remember that Abraham is the father of the Jews while Moses' was sent to the Jews as a deliverer. Jesus was also sent to the Jews with a message of salvation. Muhammad on the other hand was an Arab. He was not a Jew. So how come a message and relationship that God kept and nurtured with the Jews for over 6,000 years was suddenly sent to the world through an Arab who was not of the line of the Jews. What changed and why the change?

Christians do not believe Jesus is God. But they believe He is one with God. He is known as God the Son. He is totally different from God but He is also God in the flesh cause He was sent by God to reconcile sinful men back to Him. This great mystery is what you do not understand and why you think Christians think Jesus is God. No sir. We believe in the redemptive works of Christ that reconciles us to God. We worship the Father and also the Son as God the Father has given the Son authority over all things. We also believe in the existence of the Spirit of God which was mentioned in Gen1. It is the spirit of God that is mind of God. These three exist as one just as you, a human is of three parts. Your body, your mind and your spirit. The three parts of you also exist as one not so? Yet they are distinct as separate elements of you.

What qualifies one to be a Muslim is when you worship only on God, the God of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, Jesus, Muhammad e.t.c.

Allah does not want partner with him. But they worship their idols or messengers just like christians worship Jesus while they all know there is supreme being above which makes their faith invalid. In Islam Muhammad is just a prophet nothing same cannot be said of the others you mentioned. Their followers worship them as God.

No sir. What qualifies one to be a Muslim is to believe Muhammad is God's messenger and to observe the five pillars of Islam. None of the personalities you mentioned confessed Muhammad as God's messenger nor did they do any of the five pillars of Islam. Note again. All those persons you mentioned above are Jews. Only Muhammad is Arab. How does he enter the equation? He is not a part of the Abrahamic religion given to the Jews so how come he is suddenly the last prophet?

We beleive in only one God if christians are proposing a 3 in 1 God then we will reject it because it went against the commandments of God and Jesus. There are christians who also beleive in only one God and are not Trinitarian so don't generalize that we reject Christians in total.

Christians also believe in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ as atonement for our sins. Do you also believe that? Christians also believe that a man should marry only one wife. Do you also believe that. Christians have only one commandment which is to love one another, not sharia. Do you also accept that? Jesus commanded Christians to love their enemies and bless those who persecute them. Do you also agree with that as a Muslim? Finally, Jesus is coming back again to finally defeat the Devil and death and judge all men. Do you also as a Muslim accept these

We didn't reject their practice they wronged themselves by disbelieving in the messiah and were cursed by Jesus himself if they do not make ammend there is nothing we as Muslims can do about that. As mulims we beleive Jesus is the messiah but not God Almighty.

Mathew 23

37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, murdering the prophets and stoning those who are sent to you! How often would I have gathered your children together as a mother fowl gathers her brood under her wings, and you refused!

38 Behold, your house is forsaken and desolate (abandoned and left destitute of God's help). [I Kings 9:7; Jer. 22:5.]

39 For I declare to you, you will not see Me again until you say, Blessed (magnified in worship, adored, and exalted) is He Who comes in the name of the Lord!(F)

If you believe Jesus is the Messaiah, then what purpose does Muhammad serve? The Messaiah is one who saves people from their sins. If you believe only Jesus can save then why Muhammad again? Can Muhammad save? Should the injeel (gospel) not be enough for you? What need is there for the Quran then? Muhammad met Bahira a Jew and Christian who introduced him to the Torah and the New Testament texts. Why did Muhammad go ahead and form his own religion with his own book and not simply rely on the existing texts to form his religion like Jesus did? Why claim Quran is a revelations when the contents already existed before him? Why would the history of God's dealings with Jews be revealed to an Arab who will then require that the whole world come to Mecca and pray in Arabic to be acceptable to a Jewish God? How does that make sense?

We need Islam because the previous religion had made rebellion against God by disobeying his commandments so God sent a warner to warn mankind. Muhammad was a warner and a prophet to remind the previous religions about their errors.

Allah SWT said:

"This [Qur'an] is notification for the people that they may be warned thereby and that they may know that He is but one God and that those of understanding will be reminded."
(QS. Ibrahim 14: Verse 52)

Allah SWT said:

"O People of the Scripture, there has come to you Our Messenger to make clear to you [the religion] after a period [of suspension] of messengers, lest you say, There came not to us any bringer of good tidings or a warner. But there has come to you a bringer of good tidings and a warner. And Allah is over all things competent."
(QS. Al-Maaida 5: Verse 19)

Muhammad was sent to make clear to the people of the scripture the religion and where they fall short and also prevent the passing of wrong doctrine to ignorant gentiles..

You still need to show why God who established a religion and creed with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob down to Moses and then Jesus all Jews will suddenly choose an Arab as a messenger when his people forgot his true religion. The books of Judges, Ezra, Nehemaiah and the lesser prophets, all Jews is filled with the acts of God choosing someone to bring his people back to Him when they err.
The error in Islamic theology is the obvious disconnect and disjoint for an Arab to be the last prophet whereas God released the Torah and the Injeel to prophets who were Jews. At what point and why did God decide to pick his prophet from among the Arabs instead of the usual Jews? God in the Torah and the injeel never chose a language as His official language yet, in Islam, Arabic is His official language with which you a Yoruba ( I presume) pray to Him. Why? What led to the selection of Arabic language as the official means of prayers and communication. Why was Mecca replaced with Jerusalem? Why was the ark of covenant replaced with the Black stone and why was the Temple replaced by the Kaabah, Your theology as a Muslims has this gaping holes you need to fill sir.

Kobojunkiee:
1. The Old Covenant Law of Moses and the Prophets is summed up in the observance of the 2 greatest Laws - Jesus Christ and the Pharisees informed you of this. So, it isn't the case that Jesus Christ did not observe the Old Law. No, He did and this by obeying the 2 two greatest laws.

2. There are 613 commandments, statutes and rules in the Old Covenant Law of Moses and anyone who faults one of those laws faults them. God's Laws are All or Nothing - anyone who breaks even of those commandments and statutes, has broken them all. Those of the Old Covenant know this and Jesus Christ reminded us of this too in His New Covenant to us.

3. As for what you said of the wages of sin, we'll, anyone who breaks even the least of the 613 laws sins against God and is hence to die. So, whether you want to label some of the laws ceremonial or not, does not matter as anyone who breaks any single one of the 613 is guilty of sin and condemned to die - Deuteronomy 30 vs 15 - 20

I agree completely with your No 1.
However, you seem to forget in no 2 that as those laws were listed, so were the punishments for breaking them and corrections where appropriate. For example, murder was punishable with death but if the murderer ran into the sanctuary cities, he had a chance of escaping that judgment. There were also different offerings and sacrifices that were prescribed as propitiations for sins in Leviticus.

Yes. Anyone who breaks any of the law is deserving of death. But Jesus came after it was shown that such propitiations as listed could not save from the transgression of the law as in Isaiah 1 and Paul explained in Romans 6.

Thus, Jesus was not bound by the laws of Moses as he was not born under transgression. That is, he was born sinless. That is why he did not subject himself to the ceremonies as prescribed by Moses yet he affirmed His laws. The distinction must be made. Jesus affirmed the law of Moses. But he did not practice the laws nor subject himself to it. Instead he showed himself as perfect and above the laws of Moses.

Agboriotejoye:

I agree completely with your No 1.
1. However, you seem to forget in no 2 that as those laws were listed, so were the punishments for breaking them and corrections where appropriate. For example, murder was punishable with death but if the murderer ran into the sanctuary cities, he had a chance of escaping that judgment. There were also different offerings and sacrifices that were prescribed as propitiations for sins in Leviticus.

2. Yes. Anyone who breaks any of the law is deserving of death. But Jesus came after it was shown that such propitiations as listed could not save from the transgression of the law as in Isaiah 1 and Paul explained in Romans 6.

Thus, Jesus was not bound by the laws of Moses as he was not born under transgression. That is, he was born sinless. That is why he did not subject himself to the ceremonies as prescribed by Moses yet he affirmed His laws. The distinction must be made. Jesus affirmed the law of Moses. But he did not practice the laws nor subject himself to it. Instead he showed himself as perfect and above the laws of Moses.

1. God gave His Old Covenant Law of Moses, promising Life(eternal) to those who lived by every Law(the Righteous) and Death(perish in the grave aka cease to exist upon death -Genesis 3 vs 19) to the sinners of the Old Covenant. Now, this is the judgment indicated by God in Deuteronomy 30 vs 15 - 30. regardless of consequences of individual laws, that is.

2. So, when you talk of wages of sin, it is that those who die as sinners perish in the grave.

The righteous on the other hand, when they die, sleep in their graves waiting for the day they will all be raised from sleep.

3. Jesus Christ was born a Jew so He was born bound by the Law that God bound all those born of Jacob's blood too. He Jesus Christ had to submit to God's Law in order to fulfill it and bring a New Law and agreement to His people and the rest of the world. He died as part of the requirement in fulfilling the Old Law as well. Jesus could not sin against God - He had to fulfill God's Word in order to bring in the New agreement.

Myer:

To buttress Reno's point, which tribe and religion has God prospered the most in Nigeria?
The Northern Muslims.

On this note it's safe to say that God has been faithful to the Muslims who are more faithful to him than Christians.

On this note, I and Reno resonate.

I don't really know how you measure properity. But if it is material prosperity, I guess you will agree the South is richer than the North. Southerners per person are richer than Northerners per person. The collection of VAT is a good example and resource control. Who wants it and who doesn't?
Be it education and health wise, you will also find the Southerners faring better.
Spiritually, I doubt if the Muslims in Northern Nigeria can ever point to a spiritual leader with the pedigree and international respect an Adeboye or Oyedepo have garnered for themselves, Even Europeans who brought Christianity to Nigeria have bowed at their feet for prayers and teaching while you northern Muslims remain subservient to the Suadis generally.

Reno is wrong. His analogy is very narrow. Go to buses in Lagos doing public transport. You are more prone to find Christian offering general prayers than you will find a Muslim. Also note that a Christian does not need a corner or a mat or bowing down ceremoniously to pray to his God. He can simply close his eyes wherever he is seated and pray. So to claim Christians are not close to God because they don't make a public show as he saw is to misunderstand what Christianity is. It is a personal relationship with God through Jesus Christ not a public offer of prayer facing a certain direction in a certain position.

So Reno is speaking from the limit of his own experience. It also a fallacy for him to interpret "For God so loved the world" to mean God loves Muslims. Does he mean "the world" means Muslims? Besides, the Bible verse he quoted was talking about Jesus being the "begotten son of God", a bible verse Muslims vehemently disagree with that God does not have a son and no one can die for the sins of another. Does he mean Jesus died for Muslims and not the whole of human race? Reno gave his own false interpretation to achieve whatever aim he set out to achieve but he is wrong on all counts

Kobojunkie:
1. God gave His Old Covenant Law of Moses, promising Life(eternal) to those who lived by every Law(the Righteous) and Death(perish in the grave aka cease to exist upon death -Genesis 3 vs 19) to the sinners of the Old Covenant. Now, this is the judgment indicated by God in Deuteronomy 30 vs 15 - 30. regardless of consequences of individual laws, that is.

2. So, when you talk of wages of sin, it is that those who sin will die(perish in the grave). The righteous on the other hand will continue to sleep in their graves waiting for the day they will all be raised from sleep.

3. Jesus Christ was born a Jew so He was born bound by the Law that God bound all those born of Jacob's blood too. He Jesus Christ had to submit to God's Law in order to fulfill it and bring a New Law and agreement to His people and the rest of the world. He died as part of the requirement in fulfilling the Old Law as well. Jesus could not sin against God - He had to fulfill God's Word in order to bring in the New agreement.

Can you back your 2 up with the Old Testament? The OT does not make mention of people sleeping in their graves waiting for the day they will be raised from death. In the parable of the rich man and Lazarus, Jesus made it clear that after death, souls went up to heaven for judgment. In 1 Peter, we are told of the spirits kept in bondage due to their disobedience which Jesus first set free when he descended into abyss. So the concept of waiting in the grave till the day of judgement is strange to OT theology.

Indeed Jesus was born a Jew. But he was not bound by the laws of God given to Moses. Like I said, he knew the law and affirmed them. But Rom 8vs2 says the law of the spirit of life in Jesus sets free from the law of sin and death. v3 further talks of the limitations of the law and how Jesus was able to achieve what the law could not do.

Agboriotejoye:

1.Can you back your 2 up with the Old Testament? The OT does not make mention of people sleeping in their graves waiting for the day they will be raised from death. In the parable of the rich man and Lazarus, Jesus made it clear that after death, souls went up to heaven for judgment. In 1 Peter, we are told of the spirits kept in bondage due to their disobedience which Jesus first set free when he descended into abyss. So the concept of waiting in the grave till the day of judgement is strange to OT theology.

2.Indeed Jesus was born a Jew. But he was not bound by the laws of God given to Moses. Like I said, he knew the law and affirmed them. But Rom 8vs2 says the law of the spirit of life in Jesus sets free from the law of sin and death. v3 further talks of the limitations of the law and how Jesus was able to achieve what the law could not do.

1. Again, God promised Life and Death respectively to the righteous and the sinners of His Old Covenant agreement in Deuteronomy 30 vs 15 - 20 . The Life promised by God being the eternal Life He denied men for their sins in Genesis 3 vs 20 - 22 , and Death, the judgement He condemned men to got their rejection of Him in Genesis 3 vs 19

Those who have eternal life, same as before the covenant, slept in their graves - they didn't perish. This was the case with Abel, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob,.... Samuel, David, ..Ezekiel 18 vs 1 - 3... to present day Christians... those who have eternal life, do not perish in their graves, but sleep , waiting for when they will then be raised from the dead. All those who received God's grace(eternal Life) were reported to have slept.

The portion of your response in bold have little to do with this discussion.

2. Ask yourself this, How could Jesus Christ have been born a jew, with the blood of Jacob in His veins and not be bound by the same Law God Himself bound all descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob to?

Did God lie when He ratified the agreement in Deuteronomy 30 vs 15 - 20?

Was Jesus Christ somehow given an exemption from the Law? If so, where and when did He receive such an exemption as such is against God's own Law since God Himself declared that no man could add or remove from His Law.

---

The Law of Sin and Death as referenced in Romans 8 vs 2 refers to the Law given by God to Adam which Adam disobeyed and as a result all men were condemned by Him to Die. - Genesis 3 vs 16 - 19 - that is what the salvation we have in Jesus Christ frees us from.

---

Jesus Christ Himself did not need Salvation from that Law since He is the second Adam who did not sin. However, Jesus Christ, as a Jew was bound to and obeyed the Old Covenant Law of Moses during His time on earth.

Agboriotejoye:

There's nothing in this your post that proves your statement that Christians who follow the true teachings of Christ are Muslims. Jesus Christ said " Ye are my disciples if you do my word" in John 8. He never said they will be Muslims. Neither did the Surah you quoted say anything like that.

A Muslim is a name not exclusive to followers of Muhammad alone it means submitter to the will of God. Jesus submitted to the will of God if his followers don't submit to the will of God i.e Commandment they can't be regarded as Muslims (submitter to the will of God).


(3:52) And when Jesus perceived their leaning towards unbelief, he asked: 'Who will be my helpers in the way of Allah?' The disciples49 said: 'We are the helpers of Allah. We believe in Allah,50 and be our witness that we have submitted ourselves exclusively to Allah. (3:53) Our Lord! We believe in the com-mandment You have revealed and we obey the Messenger; make us, then, one of those who bear witness (to the Truth).'

Agboriotejoye:
John 10:30 "I and My Father are one"

This does not mean they are the same being

John 14
28 You heard Me tell you, I am going away and I am coming [back] to you. If you [really] loved Me, you would have been glad, because I am going to the Father; for the Father is greater and mightier than I am.

Infact Jesus explained what he meant when he said he was one with father..

John 17:22
I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one

Meaning they are one in essence not as a being. To us there can be only one God.

Agboriotejoye:


Good you agree Jesus is the Son of God. Your problem is the word begotten. Well, why don't you check the meaning of begotten. It not only mean born, but also "cause to be". Jesus is the spirit that was caused by God to be the son of God not born by God. How that is, I will not delve into it but here is Jesus speaking in Proverbs 8:22-23 22 It is also interesting to note that the tenets of Islam does not recognize anyone has God's son whether begotten or not. Instead, they including Muslims are known as "slaves". How then can someone who describes himself as God's son be called a Muslim?

The word begotten is not found in the bible it is an addition to the bible it is not there in the manuscript that was why RSV bible took it out they saw as corruption of the bible.

Word “Begotten” is a corruption [an addition] (RSV 32 Christians Scholars)

the term "son of God" is metaphorical not only Jesus was called son of God.

If Jesus is son of God it means he is not God. Isreal are called son of God but according to book of Isaiah they are also servant of God, Even Jesus was also called servant of God in the book of Isaiah as christians beleive. Son of God was metaphorical term. Islam does not recognize anyone as God son because christians abused the term to mean Jesus was a begotten God rather they are honored servants.

Exodus 4
22 And you shall say to Pharaoh, Thus says the Lord, Israel is My son, even My firstborn.

Psalm 82
6 I said, You are gods [since you judge on My behalf, as My representatives]; indeed, all of you are children of the Most High

John 10
36 [If that is true] do you say of the One Whom the Father consecrated and dedicated and set apart for Himself and sent into the world, You are blaspheming, because I said, I am the Son of God?

Allah SWT said:

"And they say, The Most Merciful has taken a son. Exalted is He! Rather, they are [but] honored servants."
(QS. Al-Anbiyaa 21: Verse 26)

Agboriotejoye:

Again, you are still yet to show how Abraham and Moses were Muslims. Remember that Abraham is the father of the Jews while Moses' was sent to the Jews as a deliverer. Jesus was also sent to the Jews with a message of salvation. Muhammad on the other hand was an Arab. He was not a Jew. So how come a message and relationship that God kept and nurtured with the Jews for over 6,000 years was suddenly sent to the world through an Arab who was not of the line of the Jews. What changed and why the change?

Jesus has certainly hinted about this already

John 4.

21 Jesus said to her, Woman, believe Me, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither [merely] in this mountain nor [merely] in Jerusalem.

22 You [Samaritans] do not know what you are worshiping [you worship what you do not comprehend]. We do know what we are worshiping [we worship what we have knowledge of and understand], for [after all] salvation comes from [among] the Jews.

23 A time will come, however, indeed it is already here, when the true (genuine) worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and in truth (reality); for the Father is seeking just such people as these as His worshipers.


The main reason God decided to move to the Arab nations was because the Jews broke the covenant God had with them.

Mathew 23

37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, murdering the prophets and stoning those who are sent to you! How often would I have gathered your children together as a mother fowl gathers her brood under her wings, and you refused!

38 Behold, your house is forsaken and desolate (abandoned and left destitute of God's help). [I Kings 9:7; Jer. 22:5.]

39 For I declare to you, you will not see Me again until you say, Blessed (magnified in worship, adored, and exalted) is He Who comes in the name of the Lord!(F)

Allah SWT said:

"And [We cursed them] for their breaking of the covenant and their disbelief in the signs of Allah and their killing of the prophets without right and their saying, Our hearts are wrapped. Rather, Allah has sealed them because of their disbelief, so they believe not, except for a few."
(QS. An-Nisaa 4: Verse 155)

* Via Qur'an English http://quran-en.com

Even the Christ followers whom were supposed to spread the Gospel failed by comming up with a false doctrine which even left God with no choice than to interact with Gentiles directly unfortunately Muhammad also a seed of Abraham a descendant of Ishmael. Both Ishmael and Abraham had laid the foundation of the khaaba earlier which was later turned to shrine of worshipping idols down the years. Now Allah used Muhammad to reclaim the khaaba and establish true worship at the time of Muhammad it was the Catholic church that existed imagine if you a protestant could break out of Catholic imagine why God would have raised a warner to warn the people of the scripture and establish true worship so as to pass the right doctrine to the ignorant gentiles.

Jesus had hinted this earlier

John 4.

21 Jesus said to her, Woman, believe Me, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither [merely] in this mountain nor [merely] in Jerusalem.

Agboriotejoye:

Christians do not believe Jesus is God. But they believe He is one with God. He is known as God the Son. He is totally different from God but He is also God in the flesh cause He was sent by God to reconcile sinful men back to Him. This great mystery is what you do not understand and why you think Christians think Jesus is God. No sir. We believe in the redemptive works of Christ that reconciles us to God. We worship the Father and also the Son as God the Father has given the Son authority over all things. We also believe in the existence of the Spirit of God which was mentioned in Gen1. It is the spirit of God that is mind of God. These three exist as one just as you, a human is of three parts. Your body, your mind and your spirit. The three parts of you also exist as one not so? Yet they are distinct as separate elements of you.

I understand you but the term God the son is not biblical. You see this was the reason Allah said he had no son. Son of God is not the same as God the son No doubt Jesus could have been existing before he was sent to earth but certainly not as God Almighty. But this explanation of yours can't be find in the bible either... Jesus never said he was God the son but he said he was son of God.

The truth is even at this most Trinitarian or a portion still say Jesus is God Almighty who came to earth. According to trinity Father is God, Son is God, Holy spirit is God and they are not the same yet they are one God

Agboriotejoye:


No sir. What qualifies one to be a Muslim is to believe Muhammad is God's messenger and to observe the five pillars of Islam. None of the personalities you mentioned confessed Muhammad as God's messenger nor did they do any of the five pillars of Islam. Note again. All those persons you mentioned above are Jews. Only Muhammad is Arab. How does he enter the equation? He is not a part of the Abrahamic religion given to the Jews so how come he is suddenly the last prophet?

Allahs view of a Muslim is one who submits to the will of God be it Jew, christian, or followers of Islam. Even though Muslims call themselves Muslims by mouth does not mean all Muslims are Muslims either. Muslim (Submitter to the will of God) was supposed to be a universal name but humans tend to associate followers of Muhammad to the name.

If I ask you are you a Submitter to the will of God you would say Yes. If I say are you a Muslim you will say no whereas we say the same thing.

Jehovah witnesses are also Christians even though the call themselves by another name. The question who are the true Muslims?

Agboriotejoye:

Christians also believe in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ as atonement for our sins. Do you also believe that?

well that could have been Gods will but I beleive something happened at the last minute Jesus didn't die he was replaced by another on the cross

Mathew 26
39 And going a little farther, He threw Himself upon the ground on His face and prayed saying, My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass away from Me; nevertheless, not what I will [not what I desire], but as You will and desire.

According to the Quran God saved him but the narration of the Gospel writer claim he died. There is still more narration on this matter....

Agboriotejoye:

Christians also believe that a man should marry only one wife. Do you also believe that. Christians have only one commandment which is to love one another, not sharia. Do you also accept that? Jesus commanded Christians to love their enemies and bless those who persecute them. Do you also agree with that as a Muslim? Finally, Jesus is coming back again to finally defeat the Devil and death and judge all men. Do you also as a Muslim accept these

For sure Jesus is comming back it is hinted in the Quran and also written in the Hadith we beleive that as Muslims also.

Different Prophet different laws. The Jews didn't have the law of having only one wife so if christians are having that and Muslims are not only God knows why he changed that...

Allah ordered Muslims to act justly and right with disbelievers also if some are not following it then there are some heretic ones also claiming to be Muslims of which in the actual sense they are not..

Agboriotejoye:

If you believe Jesus is the Messaiah, then what purpose does Muhammad serve? The Messaiah is one who saves people from their sins. If you believe only Jesus can save then why Muhammad again? Can Muhammad save? Should the injeel (gospel) not be enough for you? What need is there for the Quran then? Muhammad met Bahira a Jew and Christian who introduced him to the Torah and the New Testament texts. Why did Muhammad go ahead and form his own religion with his own book and not simply rely on the existing texts to form his religion like Jesus did? Why claim Quran is a revelations when the contents already existed before him? Why would the history of God's dealings with Jews be revealed to an Arab who will then require that the whole world come to Mecca and pray in Arabic to be acceptable to a Jewish God? How does that make sense?

Quran was a revelation to Muhammad because he was an illitrate who doesn't know to read and write. He was taught what happened years back right From Genesis. It might not a surprising to the christians but to Muhammad it was a revelation. Muhammad is not messiah he was only a warner and a prophet ushering in the comming of the messiah. Just like Moses did. Jesus had still not fullfil his messianic prophecies.

Agboriotejoye:

You still need to show why God who established a religion and creed with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob down to Moses and then Jesus all Jews will suddenly choose an Arab as a messenger when his people forgot his true religion. The books of Judges, Ezra, Nehemaiah and the lesser prophets, all Jews is filled with the acts of God choosing someone to bring his people back to Him when they err.
The error in Islamic theology is the obvious disconnect and disjoint for an Arab to be the last prophet whereas God released the Torah and the Injeel to prophets who were Jews. At what point and why did God decide to pick his prophet from among the Arabs instead of the usual Jews? God in the Torah and the injeel never chose a language as His official language yet, in Islam, Arabic is His official language with which you a Yoruba ( I presume) pray to Him. Why? What led to the selection of Arabic language as the official means of prayers and communication. Why was Mecca replaced with Jerusalem? Why was the ark of covenant replaced with the Black stone and why was the Temple replaced by the Kaabah, Your theology as a Muslims has this gaping holes you need to fill sir.

The Quran was revealed to Muhammad in Arabic because he was an Arab. Since Muslims know that Quran was revealed directly in Arabic they prefer to read it as Gabriel recited it to muhammad so as not to alter the meaning of verses when translating. Arabic and English language does not necessarily enjoy a one on one relationship. We chose to read it in Arabic not that it was mandatory..

I think I have explained why Jerusalem was replaced with mecca above but the summary is.

John 4.

21 Jesus said to her, Woman, believe Me, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither [merely] in this mountain nor [merely] in Jerusalem.

23 A time will come, however, indeed it is already here, when the true (genuine) worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and in truth (reality); for the Father is seeking just such people as these as His worshipers.

The convenant God had isreal has been broken hence no more prophet shall appear in Isreal after Christ. Infact the foundation of the khaaba was raised by both Abraham and ishmael before it later became shrine of idols down the years. That was why Allah commanded Muhammad to destroy all the idols at the Khaaba and establish true worship there.

(3:96) Behold, the first House (of Prayer) established for mankind is the one at Bakkah: it is full of blessing and a centre of guidance for the whole world.79

(3:97) In it there are clear signs and the station of Abraham;80 whoever enters it becomes secure.81 Pilgrimage to the House is a duty owed to Allah by all who can make their way to it. As for those who refuse to follow His command, surely Allah does not stand in need of anything.

Kobojunkie:
1. Again, God promised Life and Death respectively to the righteous and the sinners of His Old Covenant agreement in Deuteronomy 30 vs 15 - 20 . The Life promised by God being the eternal Life He denied men for their sins in Genesis 3 vs 20 - 22 , and Death, the judgement He condemned men to got their rejection of Him in Genesis 3 vs 19

Those who have eternal life, same as before the covenant, slept in their graves - they didn't perish. This was the case with Abel, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob,.... Samuel, David, ..Ezekiel 18 vs 1 - 3... to present day Christians... those who have eternal life, do not perish in their graves, but sleep , waiting for when they will then be raised from the dead. All those who received God's grace(eternal Life) were reported to have slept.

The portion of your response in bold have little to do with this discussion.

2. Ask yourself this, How could Jesus Christ have been born a jew, with the blood of Jacob in His veins and not be bound by the same Law God Himself bound all descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob to?

Did God lie when He ratified the agreement in Deuteronomy 30 vs 15 - 20?

Was Jesus Christ somehow given an exemption from the Law? If so, where and when did He receive such an exemption as such is against God's own Law since God Himself declared that no man could add or remove from His Law.

---

The Law of Sin and Death as referenced in Romans 8 vs 2 refers to the Law given by God to Adam which Adam disobeyed and as a result all men were condemned by Him to Die. - Genesis 3 vs 16 - 19 - that is what the salvation we have in Jesus Christ frees us from.

---

Jesus Christ Himself did not need Salvation from that Law since He is the second Adam who did not sin. However, Jesus Christ, as a Jew was bound to and obeyed the Old Covenant Law of Moses during His time on earth.

My bolded has everything to do with the discussion. It is Jesus himself giving a graphic detail of what happens after death in the parable. It is the direct words of Jesus himself. Here, it is obvious the rich man moved over to hell while Lazarus moved over to Abraham's bosom. Two things here. It shows Abraham is in heaven and not sleeping in his grave. Just as it is written in Eccl 12 vs 7

and the dust returneth to the earth as it was, and the spirit returneth unto God who gave it.

. Note that the even the body of Moses was contended between Angel Michael and the Devil.

You have not been able to explain the stance of Jesus Christ in the matter of the adulterouos woman. Moses's law was clear that she should be put to death, while Jesus set her free and said "Neither do I condemn thee. Go and sin no more". How does that follow the law of Moses?

The law of sin and death is the foundational law on which the Mosaic law and all other laws stand. If Jesus was bound by Mosaic law, he would have not been able to be a progenitor of a new covenant different from that of Moses. There are four distinct covenants in the Bible. That of Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses and then Jesus. All were subject to different laws and creed yet from same God. While defects in one always led to the other, the successor was never bound to the previous. Please study this well to understand the purpose of the covenant. Jesus was God in human form. So saying he was bound to a law given to the Jews due to the "hardness of their hearts" is to claim he was also of a hard heart.

Agboriotejoye:


My bolded has everything to do with the discussion. It is Jesus himself giving a graphic detail of what happens after death in the parable. It is the direct words of Jesus himself. Here, it is obvious the rich man moved over to hell while Lazarus moved over to Abraham's bosom. Two things here. It shows Abraham is in heaven and not sleeping in his grave. Just as it is written in Eccl 12 vs 7 . Note that the even the body of Moses was contended between Angel Michael and the Devil.

You have not been able to explain the stance of Jesus Christ in the matter of the adulterouos woman. Moses's law was clear that she should be put to death, while Jesus set her free and said "Neither do I condemn thee. Go and sin no more". How does that follow the law of Moses?

The law of sin and death is the foundational law on which the Mosaic law and all other laws stand. If Jesus was bound by Mosaic law, he would have not been able to be a progenitor of a new covenant different from that of Moses. There are four distinct covenants in the Bible. That of Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses and then Jesus. All were subject to different laws and creed yet from same God. While defects in one always led to the other, the successor was never bound to the previous. Please study this well to understand the purpose of the covenant. Jesus was God in human form. So saying he was bound to a law given to the Jews due to the "hardness of their hearts" is to claim he was also of a hard heart.

The Parable of Lazarus and the Richman was that, a Parable, a story that is not meant to be taken literally, that Jesus Christ told in order to teach that in His Kingdom, no one will be sent back from the dead to warn the living.

There is no promise of Heaven given by God to those of the Old Covenant. You read it for yourself in Deuteronomy 30 vs 15 - 20, where God clearly promised them Life or Death and a forever in the land of Canaan, where there Hell simply amounts to the grave(Death) for those who are sinners.

And as for Peter's mention of spirits, he also made it clear that that spirits he referenced where from before the time of Noah - most likely the fallen angels who were annihilated by God using the flood.

So hope you can see how those two references references absolutely nothing to add to the discussion.

haekymbahdx:
A Muslim is a name not exclusive to followers of Muhammad alone it means submitter to the will of God. Jesus submitted to the will of God if his followers don't submit to the will of God i.e Commandment they can't be regarded as Muslims (submitter to the will of God).


(3:52) And when Jesus perceived their leaning towards unbelief, he asked: 'Who will be my helpers in the way of Allah?' The disciples49 said: 'We are the helpers of Allah. We believe in Allah,50 and be our witness that we have submitted ourselves exclusively to Allah. (3:53) Our Lord! We believe in the com-mandment You have revealed and we obey the Messenger; make us, then, one of those who bear witness (to the Truth).'


This does not mean they are the same being

John 14
28 You heard Me tell you, I am going away and I am coming [back] to you. If you [really] loved Me, you would have been glad, because I am going to the Father; for the Father is greater and mightier than I am.

Infact Jesus explained what he meant when he said he was one with father..

John 17:22
I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one

Meaning they are one in essence not as a being. To us there can be only one God.




The word begotten is not found in the bible it is an addition to the bible it is not there in the manuscript that was why RSV bible took it out they saw as corruption of the bible.

Word “Begotten” is a corruption [an addition] (RSV 32 Christians Scholars)

the term "son of God" is metaphorical not only Jesus was called son of God.

If Jesus is son of God it means he is not God. Isreal are called son of God but according to book of Isaiah they are also servant of God, Even Jesus was also called servant of God in the book of Isaiah as christians beleive. Son of God was metaphorical term. Islam does not recognize anyone as God son because christians abused the term to mean Jesus was a begotten God rather they are honored servants.

Exodus 4
22 And you shall say to Pharaoh, Thus says the Lord, Israel is My son, even My firstborn.

Psalm 82
6 I said, You are gods [since you judge on My behalf, as My representatives]; indeed, all of you are children of the Most High

John 10
36 [If that is true] do you say of the One Whom the Father consecrated and dedicated and set apart for Himself and sent into the world, You are blaspheming, because I said, I am the Son of God?

Allah SWT said:

"And they say, The Most Merciful has taken a son. Exalted is He! Rather, they are [but] honored servants."
(QS. Al-Anbiyaa 21: Verse 26)


Jesus has certainly hinted about this already

John 4.

21 Jesus said to her, Woman, believe Me, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither [merely] in this mountain nor [merely] in Jerusalem.

22 You [Samaritans] do not know what you are worshiping [you worship what you do not comprehend]. We do know what we are worshiping [we worship what we have knowledge of and understand], for [after all] salvation comes from [among] the Jews.

23 A time will come, however, indeed it is already here, when the true (genuine) worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and in truth (reality); for the Father is seeking just such people as these as His worshipers.


The main reason God decided to move to the Arab nations was because the Jews broke the covenant God had with them.

Mathew 23

37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, murdering the prophets and stoning those who are sent to you! How often would I have gathered your children together as a mother fowl gathers her brood under her wings, and you refused!

38 Behold, your house is forsaken and desolate (abandoned and left destitute of God's help). [I Kings 9:7; Jer. 22:5.]

39 For I declare to you, you will not see Me again until you say, Blessed (magnified in worship, adored, and exalted) is He Who comes in the name of the Lord!(F)

Allah SWT said:

"And [We cursed them] for their breaking of the covenant and their disbelief in the signs of Allah and their killing of the prophets without right and their saying, Our hearts are wrapped. Rather, Allah has sealed them because of their disbelief, so they believe not, except for a few."
(QS. An-Nisaa 4: Verse 155)

* Via Qur'an English http://quran-en.com

Even the Christ followers whom were supposed to spread the Gospel failed by comming up with a false doctrine which even left God with no choice than to interact with Gentiles directly unfortunately Muhammad also a seed of Abraham a descendant of Ishmael. Both Ishmael and Abraham had laid the foundation of the khaaba earlier which was later turned to shrine of worshipping idols down the years. Now Allah used Muhammad to reclaim the khaaba and establish true worship at the time of Muhammad it was the Catholic church that existed imagine if you a protestant could break out of Catholic imagine why God would have raised a warner to warn the people of the scripture and establish true worship so as to pass the right doctrine to the ignorant gentiles.

Jesus had hinted this earlier

John 4.

21 Jesus said to her, Woman, believe Me, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither [merely] in this mountain nor [merely] in Jerusalem.



I understand you but the term God the son is not biblical. You see this was the reason Allah said he had no son. Son of God is not the same as God the son No doubt Jesus could have been existing before he was sent to earth but certainly not as God Almighty. But this explanation of yours can't be find in the bible either... Jesus never said he was God the son but he said he was son of God.

The truth is even at this most Trinitarian or a portion still say Jesus is God Almighty who came to earth. According to trinity Father is God, Son is God, Holy spirit is God and they are not the same yet they are one God


Allahs view of a Muslim is one who submits to the will of God be it Jew, christian, or followers of Islam. Even though Muslims call themselves Muslims by mouth does not mean all Muslims are Muslims either. Muslim (Submitter to the will of God) was supposed to be a universal name but humans tend to associate followers of Muhammad to the name.

If I ask you are you a Submitter to the will of God you would say Yes. If I say are you a Muslim you will say no whereas we say the same thing.

Jehovah witnesses are also Christians even though the call themselves by another name. The question who are the true Muslims?



well that could have been Gods will but I beleive something happened at the last minute Jesus didn't die he was replaced by another on the cross

Mathew 26
39 And going a little farther, He threw Himself upon the ground on His face and prayed saying, My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass away from Me; nevertheless, not what I will [not what I desire], but as You will and desire.

According to the Quran God saved him but the narration of the Gospel writer claim he died. There is still more narration on this matter....


For sure Jesus is comming back it is hinted in the Quran and also written in the Hadith we beleive that as Muslims also.

Different Prophet different laws. The Jews didn't have the law of having only one wife so if christians are having that and Muslims are not only God knows why he changed that...

Allah ordered Muslims to act justly and right with disbelievers also if some are not following it then there are some heretic ones also claiming to be Muslims of which in the actual sense they are not..


Quran was a revelation to Muhammad because he was an illitrate who doesn't know to read and write. He was taught what happened years back right From Genesis. It might not a surprising to the christians but to Muhammad it was a revelation. Muhammad is not messiah he was only a warner and a prophet ushering in the comming of the messiah. Just like Moses did. Jesus had still not fullfil his messianic prophecies.



The Quran was revealed to Muhammad in Arabic because he was an Arab. Since Muslims know that Quran was revealed directly in Arabic they prefer to read it as Gabriel recited it to muhammad so as not to alter the meaning of verses when translating. Arabic and English language does not necessarily enjoy a one on one relationship. We chose to read it in Arabic not that it was mandatory..

I think I have explained why Jerusalem was replaced with mecca above but the summary is.

John 4.

21 Jesus said to her, Woman, believe Me, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither [merely] in this mountain nor [merely] in Jerusalem.

23 A time will come, however, indeed it is already here, when the true (genuine) worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and in truth (reality); for the Father is seeking just such people as these as His worshipers.

The convenant God had isreal has been broken hence no more prophet shall appear in Isreal after Christ. Infact the foundation of the khaaba was raised by both Abraham and ishmael before it later became shrine of idols down the years. That was why Allah commanded Muhammad to destroy all the idols at the Khaaba and establish true worship there.

(3:96) Behold, the first House (of Prayer) established for mankind is the one at Bakkah: it is full of blessing and a centre of guidance for the whole world.79

(3:97) In it there are clear signs and the station of Abraham;80 whoever enters it becomes secure.81 Pilgrimage to the House is a duty owed to Allah by all who can make their way to it. As for those who refuse to follow His command, surely Allah does not stand in need of anything.

You are just doing fallacious generalization to claim people who never claimed to or have any knowledge of the religion called Islam to be Muslims. What you're doing, a Christian too can, by claiming all Muslims are Christians since they believe the Christ is the Messaiah, or a Jew saying all Muslims are Jews since they accept the Torah and accept the prophethood of Moses. But we know all these are not true. Moses was a Jew. Jesus was a Jew as well and founder of Christianity. Muhammad was a Muslim and founder of Islam.
Before Muhammad, no one ever recited the shahada, or went to Mecca on pilgrimage, or do salat or give zakat or fast during Ramadan. Your claim that Islam comes in different forms to different people will lead me to ask why then do the Sunnis fight the Shia? After all they are both Muslims. Why don't they accept the form of Islam practiced by the other? If Islam is a monotheistic religion with diverse means of worship then how is it different from freemasonry?
Everyone on the face of the earth invariably submits to the will of God whether they like it or not. No one chooses when to be born or when to die. So everybody on earth is a Muslim. Do you agree with this?
Meanwhile why should Moses be a Muslim when he described himself a Jew. If a Jew submits to God before Islam came about, and others come and also submit to the same God, why should they choose a different name for themselves and not simply call themselves Jews like Moses did? Why choose a name for people who were there before you and seek to impose that name on them when they never subscribe to it?

Ok. So let's agree with your scholars and remove "begotten" from John 3:16. See how it goes: "For God so loved the world that he gave His "only" son. That whosoever believes in him should not perish but have everlasting life"

By implication, the above quote means Jesus was the only son of God. It also means that the only way to have everlasting life is not be doing salat or zakat but by believing Jesus as the only son of God. Do you agree with all these?
If so, it means all those you quoted as being sons of God could not be since God has an "only" son according to John 3:16 RSV.
Mind you, RSV never interpreted from the original Greek manuscripts. They did from their Coptic. It doesn't matter though cause even if you remove begotten, it still retain Jesus sonship with God and even makes it exclusive to him. Hope you're comfortable with that.

John 4 that you quoted had Jesus referring to God as the Father. Do you agree with that? Now, do Muslims worship God in spirit and in truth? Let us even leave truth aside as it is debatable. Is there anything called spiritual/spirit-led worship in Islam? Kindly highlight how you worship God in spirit in Islam please.

All those quotes did not show God deciding to move to the Arab nation. Pls quote clearly from either Quran or Bible or Torah where God said he is moving to the Arab nation. Show where Abraham worshipped at the Kaabah.
Note the Protestants did not break out of Catholic because of false worship. It was because Martin Luther believed everyone should be able to read the Bible in their own tongue and language, that is, there is no official language in Christendom. He then went ahead and interpreted the Bible from Latin to German. As at today, you guys only read the Quran in Arabic in the mosques and also only pray in Arabic. So if you say Catholic is false religion, how much more Islam that still embraces what Catholic used to do?

Jesus was referring to not worshipping God on Mountain in Samaria or Temple in Jerusalem but instead in spirit and in truth. Islam is antithetical to that because you must face the Kaabah in Mecca when you pray. So Islam cannot be the fulfillment of that particular prophecy.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
The same was in the beginning with God.

This quote establishes the oneness of Jesus Christ with God the Father as His son.
John 1:14

And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us (and we beheld his glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father), full of grace and truth

Here, Jesus is referred to as begotten from the Father. So God the son is used to express the oneness of Jesus with the Father not to declare Jesus as God.

Why use Muslims to define those who submit to Allah if Jews also submit to him. Why not use Jews instead?
The true Muslims are those who believe in Allah and Muhammad as his messenger. True or false?

Matt 26:39 was actually Jesus praying that God's will should not come to pass. I thought he's a Muslim and he submits. So if God answered his prayer and replaced him with some unknown person, God himself does not desire submission and Jesus was not a Muslim. Agree?

No sir. DIfferent Prophet, same law. The laws of Torah is same as most of the Quranic laws including that of marriage. Jesus brought a much better form of worship but still based on fulfillment of the Mosaic law. So, it's a lie to say different laws.
Acting justly and right involves is Muhammad. Jesus is seeking peace even when you're at the losing end.

You still can't explain why you pray to God in Arabic can you. Why don't you just say God is great? Why do you say Allahu Akbar?

Your explanation is wrong. Jesus was talking about emphasizing on the spirit-led worship as on the day of Pentecost in the upper room in Acts 1 and not moving worship to Mecca sir.

If the Jews were removed from the covenant because they broke God's law, how much more the Arabs that converted the Kaabah to a place of idol worship? How come the covenant moved to them when they also did what the Jews did or maybe worse? Why not the Persians who were practicing Zoroastrianism then which was a monotheistic religion?

Your quote says pilgrimage to the Kaabah is a duty owed by all to Allah. How many Christians have you seen going there? What about Moses and Jesus whom you claimed are Muslims? Did they make the pilgrimage too?

Ive learnt so much from this two guys above, the air is so clear, no insults, no gra gra, just insights from both of you, i mean, i read the first comment and im almost convinced to become a Muslim, then i read a reply to it and i am convinced to stay a Christian. Thank you both immensely. May Allah bless you, grant you all your heart desires Amin, and to the Christian, May God bless you and give you all your heart desires through christ.Amen.

Agboriotejoye:


You are just doing fallacious generalization to claim people who never claimed to or have any knowledge of the religion called Islam to be Muslims. What you're doing, a Christian too can, by claiming all Muslims are Christians since they believe the Christ is the Messaiah, or a Jew saying all Muslims are Jews since they accept the Torah and accept the prophethood of Moses. But we know all these are not true. Moses was a Jew. Jesus was a Jew as well and founder of Christianity. Muhammad was a Muslim and founder of Islam.

Atleast you will agree that you are a Submitter to the will of God. When I say Jesus is a Muslim what I meant is Jesus was a Submitter to the will of God. It means Jesus has a God he submits to and superior to him.

Why I can't consider most Christians a Muslim is because they beleive Jesus is the highest the most high co equal with the Father whereas the real Yeshua had a God.

Yeah, we humans gave ourselves names be it Jew, christians, Muslims. I understand the reasons why you might not accept this. Our beleive as Muslims Is the same God sent Moses, Jesus and Muhammad so and they all preached the worship of one God so they are all Muslims.

You as a christian would not want to accept you are a Muslim because you don't beleive Muhammad you can't blame Muslims for having such belief that is our faith but have you submitted yourself to God I mean the God of Jesus have you known him even as a christian that you are without even following muhammad.

Note there is difference between muhammedian and Muslims, we Muslims do not call ourselves muhammedian but Muslims and I never said Jesus was a muhammedian but a Muslim 2 different words with different meanings.

Agboriotejoye:

Before Muhammad, no one ever recited the shahada, or went to Mecca on pilgrimage, or do salat or give zakat or fast during Ramadan.

Jesus made the shaadah also.

John 17

3 And this is eternal life: [it means] to know (to perceive, recognize, become acquainted with, and understand) You, the only true and real God, and [likewise] to know Him, Jesus [as the] Christ (the Anointed One, the Messiah), Whom You have sent.

This is bound to happen, God made a covenant with the Arab (Muhammad) there is bound to be as slight difference.

All this you posted above are what a christian should beleive and do also.

1. Beleive there is only one God and Christ as the one whom he sent ( This is shaahadah)

2. Prayer 3.Fasting 4. Give alms to poor 5. Pilgrimage to Jerusalem if you have the resources not compulsory so what is absurd here

Agboriotejoye:

Your claim that Islam comes in different forms to different people will lead me to ask why then do the Sunnis fight the Shia? After all they are both Muslims. Why don't they accept the form of Islam practiced by the other? If Islam is a monotheistic religion with diverse means of worship then how is it different from freemasonry?

Islam is monotheistic you have to understand the reason why they had disagreements. When the prophet was Alive none of this happened it only happened after him. Both Shia and Sunni beleive in core pemrinciple of Islam.

1. Shaahadah 2. Salat 3. Zakat 4. Fasting 5. Pilgrimage

They both read the same Quran and the same creed the major difference between Sunni and Shia is that Their beliefs over who should have succeeded the Prophet Muhammad is the key theological difference between the two.

Sunnis also have a less elaborate religious hierarchy than Shiites have, and the two sects' interpretation of Islam's schools of law is different. Shiites give human beings the exalted status that is given only to prophets in the Quran, often venerating clerics as saints, whereas Sunnis do not.

The both beleive in one God and Muhammad as is messenger.

Agboriotejoye:

Everyone on the face of the earth invariably submits to the will of God whether they like it or not. No one chooses when to be born or when to die. So everybody on earth is a Muslim. Do you agree with this?

Everyone was born a Muslim but we all have freewill to make choices. I think everyone including idol worshippers beleive in one God. But the issue is they associate partners with God. That was why God was sending prophets to warn mankind to worship him alone and leave idols. it is the same reason muslims are rejecting the version of Christianity being preached because we can't associate anyone as co equal with God the moment we do that we have broken the law. That is why we don't beleive in trinity and to us Jesus didn't teach trinity either.

We are to beleive in messengers of God and follow their teachings and laws given to them and worship the only one God.

Agboriotejoye:

Meanwhile why should Moses be a Muslim when he described himself a Jew. If a Jew submits to God before Islam came about, and others come and also submit to the same God, why should they choose a different name for themselves and not simply call themselves Jews like Moses did? Why choose a name for people who were there before you and seek to impose that name on them when they never subscribe to it?

The fact is Moses didn't call himself a Jew he never gave the religion a name same way Jesus didn't name Christianity. We know the meaning of Muslim to be Submitter to the will of God. Both Moses and Jesus had a God and they submitted to his will. They might not have called themselves Muslims but certainly they are Submitter to Gods will atleast you will agree to that.

Agboriotejoye:

Ok. So let's agree with your scholars and remove "begotten" from John 3:16. See how it goes: "For God so loved the world that he gave His "only" son. That whosoever believes in him should not perish but have everlasting life"

This will lead us to the Question does God have an only son definitely no. God has a lot of son and children of which Jesus is among they might be in different rank that's Just the fact. This is the reason Allah rejected having a son (only son)

Exodus 4
22 And you shall say to Pharaoh, Thus says the Lord, Israel is My son, even My firstborn.

Psalm 82
6 I said, You are gods [since you judge on My behalf, as My representatives]; indeed, all of you are children of the Most High

John 10
36 [If that is true] do you say of the One Whom the Father consecrated and dedicated and set apart for Himself and sent into the world, You are blaspheming, because I said, I am the Son of God?

Job 6
6 Now there was a day when the sons (the angels) of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan (the adversary and accuser) also came among them.

Mathew 5
9 Blessed (enjoying [p]enviable happiness, [q]spiritually prosperous--[r]with life-joy and satisfaction in God's favor and salvation, regardless of their outward conditions) are the makers and [s]maintainers of peace, for they shall be called the sons of God!

To us Muslims God did not have an only son. The rank might be different from each other but certainly none is co equal with God Almighty

Agboriotejoye:

By implication, the above quote means Jesus was the only son of God. It also means that the only way to have everlasting life is not be doing salat or zakat but by believing Jesus as the only son of God. Do you agree with all these?
If so, it means all those you quoted as being sons of God could not be since God has an "only" son according to John 3:16 RSV.
Mind you, RSV never interpreted from the original Greek manuscripts. They did from their Coptic. It doesn't matter though cause even if you remove begotten, it still retain Jesus sonship with God and even makes it exclusive to him. Hope you're comfortable with that.

Having everlasting life is not only about believing in Jesus as Christ (messiah) alone you have to keep the commandments also. Believing in Jesus and accepting him as Lord is not enough to make everlasting life

Mathew 7
21Not everyone who says to Me, Lord, Lord, will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father Who is in heaven.

22 Many will say to Me on that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name and driven out demons in Your name and done many mighty works in Your name?

23 And then I will say to them openly (publicly), I never knew you; depart from Me, you who act wickedly [disregarding My commands].

As Muslims we beleive in Jesus as Christ not as God Almighty coupled with the fact that we keep the commandments. If christians think they can beleive in Jesus and not keep the commandments then it's left to the.

The first commandment: Hear, I isreal the Lord our God is one Lord. and this is the Shaahadah

Agboriotejoye:

John 4 that you quoted had Jesus referring to God as the Father. Do you agree with that? Now, do Muslims worship God in spirit and in truth? Let us even leave truth aside as it is debatable. Is there anything called spiritual/spirit-led worship in Islam? Kindly highlight how you worship God in spirit in Islam please.

so how do Muslims worship God. God is a spirit and can only be worshipped in spirit. So you think the salat is just a physical worship. Apart from obligatory salat a Muslim must also have a secret place where he can pray and worship God. I do have mine.

What is your definition of spiritual worship?

Agboriotejoye:

All those quotes did not show God deciding to move to the Arab nation. Pls quote clearly from either Quran or Bible or Torah where God said he is moving to the Arab nation. Show where Abraham worshipped at the Kaabah.

Atleast, it was clear he was moving from Jerusalem.

John 4
21 Jesus said to her, Woman, believe Me, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither [merely] in this mountain nor [merely] in Jerusalem.

Jesus said worship the father only God is worthy of worship.

1 king 9
6 But if you turn away from following Me, you or your children, and will not keep My commandments and My statutes which I have set before you but go and serve other gods and worship them,

7 Then I will cut off Israel from the land I have given them, and this house I have hallowed for My Name (renown) I will cast from My sight. And Israel shall be a proverb and a byword among all the peoples.

8 This house shall become a heap of ruins; every passerby shall be astonished and shall hiss [with surprise] and say, Why has the Lord done thus to this land and to this house?

9 Then they will answer, Because they forsook the Lord their God, Who brought their fathers out of the land of Egypt, and have laid hold of other gods and have worshiped and served them; therefore the Lord has brought on them all this evil.


Allah SWT said:

"They have been put under humiliation [by Allah] wherever they are overtaken, except for a covenant from Allah and a rope from the Muslims. And they have drawn upon themselves anger from Allah and have been put under destitution. That is because they disbelieved in the verses of Allah and killed the prophets without right. That is because they disobeyed and [habitually] transgressed."
(QS. Aal-i-Imraan 3: Verse 112)

* Via Qur'an English http://quran-en.com

Agboriotejoye:

Note the Protestants did not break out of Catholic because of false worship. It was because Martin Luther believed everyone should be able to read the Bible in their own tongue and language, that is, there is no official language in Christendom. He then went ahead and interpreted the Bible from Latin to German. As at today, you guys only read the Quran in Arabic in the mosques and also only pray in Arabic. So if you say Catholic is false religion, how much more Islam that still embraces what Catholic used to do?

Not false religion but false doctrine... We are very obedient. Infact christians don't have right to change the name of Yeshua L'machiak to Jesus Christ there is no justification for this and this is what Muslims will never do. The Quran was revealed to Muhammad in Arabic we prefer to do all our thing perfectly as we were told even though we had the free will to do it the other way round. We also pray in our native Language but when we recite the Quran we prefer to recite as it was revealed translating it might alter some meanings and interpretation and also English and Arabic
languagedon'tt necessarily enjoy a one on one relationship

Agboriotejoye:

Jesus was referring to not worshipping God on Mountain in Samaria or Temple in Jerusalem but instead in spirit and in truth. Islam is antithetical to that because you must face the Kaabah in Mecca when you pray. So Islam cannot be the fulfillment of that particular prophecy.

The Jews were also facing a direction

The Talmud states that a Jew praying in the Diaspora, shall direct himself toward the Land of Israel; in Israel, toward Jerusalem; in Jerusalem, toward the Temple; and in the Temple, toward the Holy of Holies. ... The custom is based on the prayer of Solomon (I Kings 8:33, 44, 48; II Chron. 6:34).

So it is nothing new if Muslims face direction when praying even Jesus was a Jew and he prayed in the temple definitely he must have also followed a direction.

Agboriotejoye:

This quote establishes the oneness of Jesus Christ with God the Father as His son.
John 1:14 Here, Jesus is referred to as begotten from the Father. So God the son is used to express the oneness of Jesus with the Father not to declare Jesus as God.

They are one in essence not that Jesus is the father himself. Jesus was also created by the Father he might have been created first but definitely he is not God Almighty.

Proverbs 8:22 The LORD created me at the beginning of his work, the first of his acts of old.

We as Muslims are only enjoined to worship the creator and not creation.

Agboriotejoye:

Why use Muslims to define those who submit to Allah if Jews also submit to him. Why not use Jews instead?
The true Muslims are those who believe in Allah and Muhammad as his messenger. True or false?

okay, let me just say Moses and Jesus are Submitter to the will of God. Also Muslims does not mean muhammedian in the view of Allah. That is what Muslim means in Allahs view.

Agboriotejoye:

Matt 26:39 was actually Jesus praying that God's will should not come to pass. I thought he's a Muslim and he submits. So if God answered his prayer and replaced him with some unknown person, God himself does not desire submission and Jesus was not a Muslim. Agree?

check the bolded he submitted himself to the will of God, he was asking if it was possible for God to save him from dieing

Mathew 26

39And going a little farther, He threw Himself upon the ground on His face and prayed saying, My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass away from Me; nevertheless, not what I will [not what I desire], but as You will and desire.

Agboriotejoye:

No sir. DIfferent Prophet, same law. The laws of Torah is same as most of the Quranic laws including that of marriage. Jesus brought a much better form of worship but still based on fulfillment of the Mosaic law. So, it's a lie to say different laws.
Acting justly and right involves is Muhammad. Jesus is seeking peace even when you're at the losing end.

It doesn't matter all we have to do is follow the law giving to us. The same God that gave Moses law is still the same that gave Jesus.

Agboriotejoye:

You still can't explain why you pray to God in Arabic can you. Why don't you just say God is great? Why do you say Allahu Akbar?

I have don this it is not a mandatory thing but as Muslims we strict with our worship. We do things as done and prescribed. We read Quran in Arabic because it was revealed in Arabic the prophet language we prefer to read it as revealed same reason we won't change the name of Muhammad and Allah because that is the way the Quran was revealed. Christians can decide to change Yeshua to Jesus that is something we as Muslims won't do even though we have freewill to do it..

We also pray to God in our local dialect not all Muslims can speak Arabic fluently most Muslims pray in their native language but read the Quran in Arabic.

Agboriotejoye:


Your explanation is wrong. Jesus was talking about emphasizing on the spirit-led worship as on the day of Pentecost in the upper room in Acts 1 and not moving worship to Mecca sir.

This is debatable I am of the opinion and beleive that Muhammad was the comforter to come and not the holy spirit. God is a spirit so there is no way we can worship him physically. Do you think the salat is just ordinary prayer. A spiritually inclined Muslim will definitely know the benefit of salat it gets you close to God.

Agboriotejoye:

If the Jews were removed from the covenant because they broke God's law, how much more the Arabs that converted the Kaabah to a place of idol worship? How come the covenant moved to them when they also did what the Jews did or maybe worse? Why not the Persians who were practicing Zoroastrianism then which was a monotheistic religion?

After Ishmael prophethood was suspended from the Arab nation. Imagine despite God intermittent ly sending prophets to isrealites they still failed to keep the commandments. Now imagine an Arab nation that prophethood were suspended from they reverted back to idol worshipping. So it is a test for the Arab nation also to see if they can do better than the isrealites in keeping the commandments of God.

Agboriotejoye:

Your quote says pilgrimage to the Kaabah is a duty owed by all to Allah. How many Christians have you seen going there? What about Moses and Jesus whom you claimed are Muslims? Did they make the pilgrimage too?

Hajj is only for whoever is able to go it is not like compulsory you have to be financially, mentally, morally e.t.c ready


Allah SWT said:

"In it are clear signs [such as] the standing place of Abraham. And whoever enters it shall be safe. And [due] to Allah from the people is a pilgrimage to the House - for whoever is able to find thereto a way. But whoever disbelieves - then indeed, Allah is free from need of the worlds."
(QS. Aal-i-Imraan 3: Verse 97)

* Via Qur'an English http://quran-en.com


Not all Muslims make pilgrimage to mecca before they die but if one is blessed by God then he or she should make sure he goes. If one doesn't go it doesn't make one less a Muslim.