@Mujtahida do4luv14
Let's discuss here

Mujtahida:

When you leave Christianity, it is common for Christians to tell you that you were never in the faith. It's their default response. Religious people find it hard to accept that people can find peace outside their faith. I just laugh.

If I am even looking for the best exemplars of peace, I won't look at Christians. I will look at Buddhist monks

Like Buddhism isn't "religion" and Buddhists aren't "religious people"
I don't know which Christians you met but there are some of us that didn't just find the word of God but also the God of the word

For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. — Heb 6:4-6

If you were to look at the time you were "Christian" critically on the basis of the bolded. Would you say you checked all of them?

Odunayaw:
Like Buddhism isn't "religion" and Buddhists aren't "religious people"
I don't know which Christians you met but there are some of us that didn't just find the word of God but also the God of the word

For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. — Heb 6:4-6

If you were to look at the time you were "Christian" critically on the basis of the bolded. Would you say you checked all of them?

What do you mean tasted the good word of God? Like you believe in the word of God and you experience power, healing, miracles, answered prayers, you see visions, you prophecy, you use the word to cast out demons, to break strongholds and deliver people, you experience hope and faith and you have faith in your heart? Abi wetin again.

Do you know what the word of God is?

You see the part I bolded? It is just christianese-fine Christian talk. You know as well as I do that as far as Christianity is concerned, God and his word are the same. You find God, you found his word, you find his word, you find God. You know that verse that says that God has honored his word above his name.

The emphasis on Buddhist is not whether they are religious people or whether they follow religion. My point is that they exemplify peace to me better than Christians who usually are very much like the rest of us only that they attend church, read their bibles and maybe speak in tongues.

Mujtahida:

It's total mindfuck. Through Adam we became sinner not because we did anything ooo. Just by being born as a human being.
Then they said christ came and died and created a new order for man but the catch here is that unlike what happened through Adam in which we all automatically become sinners, we do not automatically share this new life of Christ. No have to first believe and have faith in the finished work of Christ before we partake of this new life. Shey you see the ojoro. They do not see that just as in Adam, people are sinners when they are born, so also once a child is born, he should be sinless now that christ has paid the price. But we all know it's not so. If it is so, how would pastors chop from this whole thriving business of sin, church and Christianity?

They will come and say that the things of the spirit are not carnally discerned. Abeg out of respect for the faith of people, let me drop this topic jeje if not...

But when you look at normal mankind relations. A debt is exacted upon family/friends/surety. And a cheque you don't know about or better still, a cheque not signed can't be cashed.

This things aren't complicated
Let's play a scenario. My Dad owed N1m before I was born and he can't pay. Creditor decides to be Nigerian. Puts Dad in jail, and proceed to weekly take one furniture from my house. Fortunately, we have much valuable furniture and he keeps coming till I was born, and even up till I was 8yrs old.

Is that debt still being exacted on what should naturally be mine (as inheritance)?

However, one day I per chance tumble on a will by my maternal granny dated back to around the time I was born that left me N100m. I go ahead, find it's veracity and it is true!

How useful was the will before I found out about it? If I never found it, is my household free from debt? If I don't cash it, will our furniture be spared the coming week?

If you answer this questions sincerely you'd find out that the gospel is so simple hence Jesus recommend how we receive it —with childlike faith.

There, the gospel presented like a Nollywood movie.

Replace my Dad with Adam, Creditor with You-Know-Who Debt with sin, granny with God, Will/cheque with Christ's sacrifice, Cash-out with faith.

By being a son of my Dad I suffered from his debt, by being relative to granny I had a stake in the Will, by a cheque I can payback and recover all.


Your mind is opened in Jesus name

Mujtahida:

What do you mean tasted the good word of God? Like you believe in the word of God and you experience power, healing, miracles, answered prayers, you see visions, you prophecy, you use the word to cast out demons, to break strongholds and deliver people, you experience hope and faith and you have faith in your heart? Abi wetin again.

You see what I'm saying. Where did you read tasted the good word of God. That verse reads tasted of the heavenly gift

If you can miss something so bolded in front of you. How do I not know you've missed the whole Bible?

Do you know what the word of God is?

Not, what. Who? Yes I do

You see the part I bolded? It is just christianese-fine Christian talk. You know as well as I do that as far as Christianity is concerned, God and his word are the same. You find God, you found his word, you find his word, you find God. You know that verse that says that God has honored his word above his name.

Oh, is that so. So if I told you I know Achebe intimately/personally and not just his great writings. That's fine talk?
I'm glad you said the bolded Sir. But how true is that in most people's life...even yours. You type this with your mind but you sound far from it. Truly, the Word is a Person. Did you meet the person or you educated your mind alone.

The emphasis on Buddhist is not whether they are religious people or whether they follow religion. My point is that they exemplify peace to me better than Christians who usually are very much like the rest of us only that they attend church, read their bibles and maybe speak in tongues.

I won't deny that I know the kind of Christians you know.

But you see, even yourself (when you were a "Christian" exemplified the same thing. This not a "them" thing. A Christian's life has fruits and I'm not talking of just "breakthrough jobs or houses or cars.
Hey, even Jesus said a man's life doesn't consist of such. But look, who has listened

So, no apologies on behalf of the Christians you know. A lifestyle wrongly practiced birthed the mutants you met

Mujtahida

What do you call Peace. I'm curious, seeing you have mentioned it alot

bazooka1:

Do you find any gaps or flaws in the Bible? Do you think the Bible is 100% factual and accurate? What's your opinion about the catholic Bible having more books than the protestant Bible?
Your reply will give me a clear picture of your understanding about your religion doctrine and of course my further engagement hinge on this.

Here's my answer bro

You examine the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is those very Scriptures that testify about Me; — Jesus speaking in John 5:39

Instead of going back and forth. I love this reply of Jesus. Look, to a good degree, I know church history. How this complication of writings we now call Bible came to be during Emperor Constantine.
But many as did they during the times of Jesus where to fixed on which or what writing were "scriptures". His reply shows that it is futile study, FOR ALL SCRIPTURES point to/testify of HIM.


That said, I've read the Catholic Bible. My opinion is simple, What men call "scriptures" or not isn't my issue. For all these words are doorways to meet a PERSON!
Seeing the mind of this Person through time is Koko.

What is the essence of a large head over a large heart

bazooka1:

It's mind boggling the arrogance amid ignorance exhibited by these Christians. I once asked a pastor what Peter was talking about in 2 Cor 12:2. Where he said he met a man in 3rd heaven. I asked him how many heavens there was if there was a 3rd Heaven as described by Peter. The man looked lost till date he no dey near me again.

That wasn't Peter. So if I were to ridicule you by this simple ignorance. I suddenly look more knowledgeable eh?

And if this Pastor explained what he himself doesn't know, isn't that more disservice to you. Or perhaps that'd have given you another think to feed on.

Now, if you have interacted with even traditionalists you'd begin to get a glimpse of the spiritual surroundings of Earth.
"HEAVEN" as in the way you're asking your question is not in the kindergarten understanding of many heavens or such. That scripture is talking about "planes of existence".

An upcoming ogboni will tell you of the astral plane (Thank God that English language is catching up). In the days of KJV English, you'd have heard maybe 2nd heaven or so

I'd just say, him who seeks knowledge or perhaps truth must do so with humility

Odunayaw:
Here's my answer bro

You examine the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is those very Scriptures that testify about Me; — Jesus speaking in John 5:39

Instead of going back and forth. I love this reply of Jesus. Look, to a good degree, I know church history. How this complication of writings we now call Bible came to be during Emperor Constantine.
But many as did they during the times of Jesus where to fixed on which or what writing were "scriptures". His reply shows that it is futile study, FOR ALL SCRIPTURES point to/testify of HIM.


That said, I've read the Catholic Bible. My opinion is simple, What men call "scriptures" or not isn't my issue. For all these words are doorways to meet a PERSON!
Seeing the mind of this Person through time is Koko.

What is the essence of a large head over a large heart

Very cagey reply. You seem to know more than you want to disclose for some reasons. But it's OK.

bazooka1:

Very cagey reply. You seem to know more than you want to disclose for some reasons. But it's OK.

Why should any man chase shadows bro

What's your faith tho

bazooka1:

Forget the typo and read the substance of the post. How many Heavens do you have and how did Paul get there while still alive on earth? Could there be more heavens after the first 3?

I tried explaining this in one of my replies to you.

These things are engaged by even what they call witches. You must have heard of astral projection right?

The "spiritual" depths of Christianity is alive and kicking but I trust you to explore it if truly you are as you strike me — a seeker of knowledge. And not just a talkative

Odunayaw:
I tried explaining this in one of my replies to you.

These things are engaged by even what they call witches. You must have heard of astral projection right?

The "spiritual" depths of Christianity is alive and kicking but I trust you to explore it if truly you are as you strike me — a seeker of knowledge. And not just a talkative

Does the Bible fulfill these spiritual depths you alluded to?
Astral is pretty low on the paradigm. The 3rd heaven is above the Astral plane.
Does the Bible really satisfy your quest for spiritual knowledge, When it doesn't go so deep in this spirituality teachings? Especially when the major actors in the Bible talked about seeing a man in the 3rd Heaven.

bazooka1:

Does the Bible fulfill these spiritual depths you alluded to?
Astral is pretty low on the paradigm. The 3rd heaven is above the Astral plane.
Does the Bible really satisfy your quest for spiritual knowledge, When it doesn't go so deep in this spirituality teachings? Especially when the major actors in the Bible talked about seeing a man in the 3rd Heaven.

Oh yes! The Bible does!
Colossians 3:1 advises me to set my heart on things "above". I have books like Ezekiel, Zechariah, Revelations to sit with and meditate on and imagine.
Padre Pio, Madame Guyon, St Teresa of Avila are Christians who have gone on before me who explored the richness of the depth of God. I'm glad you know this "3rd heaven" is above the astral/soulish plane. That "3rd Heaven" was described vividly in the books I mentioned earlier. I believe lack of better words plays a part with the seeming numbering system

Many Christians want pancake or microwave things. Hence the generations and generations of mutant Christianity we've always seen. Many talk and no power or fruit.

Some of us relate with God as a person. I have firsthand witnessed traditionalists summon and converse with their "spirits", so why should anyone doubt I come to the person of God.

So yes, the God who inspired the word is a spirit and the last 4yrs of my life that I unbundled myself of pseudoChristianity and chased Christ have been fruitful

Odunayaw:
Oh yes! The Bible does!
Colossians 3:1 advises me to set my heart on things "above". I have books like Ezekiel, Zechariah, Revelations to sit with and meditate on and imagine.
Padre Pio, Madame Guyon, St Teresa of Avila are Christians who have gone on before me who explored the richness of the depth of God. I'm glad you know this "3rd heaven" is above the astral/soulish plane. That "3rd Heaven" was described vividly in the books I mentioned earlier. I believe lack of better words plays a part with the seeming numbering system

Many Christians want pancake or microwave things. Hence the generations and generations of mutant Christianity we've always seen. Many talk and no power or fruit.

Some of us relate with God as a person. I have firsthand witnessed traditionalists summon and converse with their "spirits", so why should anyone doubt I come to the person of God.

So yes, the God who inspired the word is a spirit and the last 4yrs of my life that I unbundled myself of pseudoChristianity and chased Christ have been fruitful

The 3rd heaven was mentioned vividly in the book you referenced and even less so in the Bible. That's the catch. That's why a true seeker will find the Bible fairly limited.
This is also the reason I find it astonishing why a book like the book of Enoch will be regarded as apocryphal where lies has so many information about the ancient times not covered or edited from the Bible.

Odunayaw:
You see what I'm saying. Where did you read tasted the good word of God. That verse reads tasted of the heavenly gift

If you can miss something so bolded in front of you. How do I not know you've missed the whole Bible?

Not, what. Who? Yes I do

Oh, is that so. So if I told you I know Achebe intimately/personally and not just his great writings. That's fine talk?
I'm glad you said the bolded Sir. But how true is that in most people's life...even yours. You type this with your mind but you sound far from it. Truly, the Word is a Person. Did you meet the person or you educated your mind alone.

I won't deny that I know the kind of Christians you know.

But you see, even yourself (when you were a "Christian" exemplified the same thing. This not a "them" thing. A Christian's life has fruits and I'm not talking of just "breakthrough jobs or houses or cars.
Hey, even Jesus said a man's life doesn't consist of such. But look, who has listened

So, no apologies on behalf of the Christians you know. A lifestyle wrongly practiced birthed the mutants you met

Na wa for you ooo. So you quoted a passage and didn't see 'tasted the word of God' in the passage from Hebrews you quoted to me. So you have run to town with what you think was an error on my path. Passage that I am very familiar with.
Hebrews 6vs 4-5
It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened,who have tasted the heavenly gift,who have shared in the Holy Spirit, [/b]who have tasted the goodness of the word of God[b] and the powers of the coming age.

Achebe is not God who according to the Bible is indistinguishable from his word. I know you are making an analogy but it is totally misplaced because you can distinguish Achebe or any man for that matter from his words but not so God who in his son expresses himself as his Word.

Thank God you know that it is Who not what.

First I simply do not believe that I am born a sinner or that I inherited sin and therefore need to be saved. Naaa, it's just a story which is an insult to justice, morality and commonsense.

Second, I believe God exists inside everyman and therefore I do not need any mediator. The sun shines on all without any intermediary. So also does God.

I reached this points after I left Christianity which was fruitless to me just as it is to many Christians who are stuck in it because the talk is more than the reality.

Mujtahida:

Na wa for you ooo. So you quoted a passage and didn't see 'tasted the word of God' in the passage from Hebrews you quoted to me. So you have run to town with what you think was an error on my path. Passage that I am very familiar with.
Hebrews 6vs 4-5
It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened,who have tasted the heavenly gift,who have shared in the Holy Spirit, [/b]who have tasted the goodness of the word of God[b] and the powers of the coming age.

Achebe is not God who according to the Bible is indistinguishable from his word. I know you are making an analogy but it is totally misplaced because you can distinguish Achebe or any man for that matter from his words but not so God who in his son expresses himself as his Word.

Thank God you know that it is Who not what.

First I simply do not believe that I am born a sinner or that I inherited sin and therefore need to be saved. Naaa, it's just a story which is an insult to justice, morality and commonsense.

Second, I believe God exists inside everyman and therefore I do not need any mediator. The sun shines on all without any intermediary. So also does God.

I reached this points after I left Christianity which was fruitless to me just as it is to many Christians who are stuck in it because the talk is more than the reality.

Omoo! I'm sorry I skipped verse 5. Slip regretted

But you're buttressing my analogy about Achebe. You're not saying anything new na. You said I'm speaking christianese or what did you call it and I'm showing you that even with mere mortals you can make a distinction.

Oh really, you can't make a distinction? What does this mean then?

Is this not why it is written that the letter kills?

Is this not true today. Do we not see many preachers go about preaching the "words" devoid of the Person. Have you not heard of the infamy of "Mummy G.O". Explain that!
Is this not why it is written that the letter kills?

Truth is forever settled. God and His Words are one. Experience on Earth isn't mirroring it hence my "christianese". All this ones are not a koko.

Odunayaw:
But when you look at normal mankind relations. A debt is exacted upon family/friends/surety. And a cheque you don't know about or better still, a cheque not signed can't be cashed.

This things aren't complicated
Let's play a scenario. My Dad owed N1m before I was born and he can't pay. Creditor decides to be Nigerian. Puts Dad in jail, and proceed to weekly take one furniture from my house. Fortunately, we have much valuable furniture and he keeps coming till I was born, and even up till I was 8yrs old.



However, one day I per chance tumble on a will by my maternal granny dated back to around the time I was born that left me N100m. I go ahead, find it's veracity and it is true!



If you answer this questions sincerely you'd find out that the gospel is so simple hence Jesus recommend how we receive it —with childlike faith.

There, the gospel presented like a Nollywood movie.

Replace my Dad with Adam, Creditor with You-Know-Who Debt with sin, granny with God, Will/cheque with Christ's sacrifice, Cash-out with faith.

By being a son of my Dad I suffered from his debt, by being relative to granny I had a stake in the Will, by a cheque I can payback and recover all.


Your mind is opened in Jesus name

You see the whole thing you wrote here? It's just to say Adam sinned and became a debtor and therefore I as a child of Adam is a debtor.

But this is just a story just like you concocted an imaginary story about debt and family. If I ask you where you got this Adam talk from now, you will point me to the Bible. That's where the problem comes from.

But let me take your analogy and answer it from the point of law human law ooo which appears to have more common sense in it than "divine law".

You cannot under our law exact a debt I am owing from my son, my wife or my friends or family. You will fail in court and even incur damages. So na una Sabi which kind divine law will attribute Adam's sin to me as a debt and still be just in your estimation. Thank God human beings have more sense than to frame laws that operate this way. Society would have been in total chaos. Imagine you facing criminal charges and civil claims in court for a debt your father incurred which you might even know nothing about. I'm sure if it happens to you this way you will protest against the injustice of it but here you are twisting natural justice just because of a story in the Bible.

If you collect your will from your Granny you are absolutely under no legal obligation to pay your father's debt with it. Shey Bible says that a man and his wife are one flesh. Okay na, go and grab a man's wife over the man's debt and see. It's just that in Nigeria people usually use the police which is really an aberration because Nigeria is a lawless society but even at that if such a case goes to court you will pay damages to the wife for your actions. In other places you dare not try it at all. So on the basis of law, human law ooo, this Adam thing is just a farce.

Mujtahida:


First I simply do not believe that I am born a sinner or that I inherited sin and therefore need to be saved. Naaa, it's just a story which is an insult to justice, morality and commonsense.

Second, I believe God exists inside everyman and therefore I do not need any mediator. The sun shines on all without any intermediary. So also does God.

I reached this points after I left Christianity which was fruitless to me just as it is to many Christians who are stuck in it because the talk is more than the reality.

You're free to stay with common sense sir. But with Justice, scriptures tell me God deals generationally.

If I'm to refute I inherited sin, I'd accept I evoluted from apes. What's your idea of your human roots?

If I remember correctly you are a lawyer. You do understand the concept of arbitration. Heck, you practice mediation in the courtroom. Does your client not know they're guilty or not guilty?


But alas, if I asked you, what was your life and practice of Christianity like I'm sure I'd get the nursery rhyme "Read your Bible, pray everyday" lasan
Man would spend so much time and patience understanding plants and science... in fact, understanding their partners or spouse but perform no diligence with God.
Did you not read that God is a rewarder of them that diligently seek Him?

Odunayaw:

Omoo! I'm sorry I skipped verse 5. Slip regretted

But you're buttressing my analogy about Achebe. You're not saying anything new na. You said I'm speaking christianese or what did you call it and I'm showing you that even with mere mortals you can make a distinction.

Oh really, you can't make a distinction? What does this mean then?


Is this not true today. Do we not see many preachers go about preaching the "words" devoid of the Person. Have you not heard of the infamy of "Mummy G.O". Explain that!
Is this not why it is written that the letter kills?

Truth is forever settled. God and His Words are one. Experience on Earth isn't mirroring it hence my "christianese". All this ones are not a koko.

You And me know that when we are talking about the Word we are referring to Jesus Christ. So forget about the letter kills. John chapter 1 has settled it. God and his Word are the same. That's why I say that your analogy of Achebe is misplaced. Achebe and his words are distinguishable but God and his word (Christ) are the same. So you can meet Achebe and find he's very much different from his words but once you meet God, you have met his Word, in fact according to the Christian faith you cannot meet God except through his Word. So that distinction you originally tried to establish when you said you didn't just meet the word of God but the God of the Word is christianese.

bazooka1:

The 3rd heaven was mentioned vividly in the book you referenced and even less so in the Bible. That's the catch. That's why a true seeker will find the Bible fairly limited.
This is also the reason I find it astonishing why a book like the book of Enoch will be regarded as apocryphal where lies has so many information about the ancient times not covered or edited from the Bible.

Perhaps you can point where the Bible withholds one from seeking. In fact, a preacher I really admire once had a vision where Jesus himself made reference to the book of Enoch.

As I said, the book leads you to the PERSON. If all the encounters and all the words of God were written down, do you not think you'd use your whole lifetime on Earth reading them without even having time to digest them? Think am.

The Spirit (of God) is my liberty, the Bible is my guide and my boundary. It is written that the Word and the Spirit agrees.

The Bible isn't meant to fascinate me and leave me with a wow. I go further and enter into the same experience Sir. I have had a few experiences like was described in the bible. There are a host of us

Mujtahida:

You And me know that when we are talking about the Word we are referring to Jesus Christ. So forget about the letter kills. John chapter 1 has settled it. God and his Word are the same. That's why I say that your analogy of Achebe is misplaced. Achebe and his words are distinguishable but God and his word (Christ) are the same. So you can meet Achebe and find he's very much different from his words but once you meet God, you have met his Word, in fact according to the Christian faith you cannot meet God except through his Word. So that distinction you originally tried to establish when you said you didn't just meet the word of God but the God of the Word is christianese.

Oga mi, you are repeating what I'm saying.

ONCE YOU MEET GOD, YOU'VE MET HIS WORD!
But we have seen from biblical times till now that you can MEET THE WORD (WRITTEN DOWN) AND NOT MEET GOD!
Jesus himself said this to the Pharisees John 5:39. Forget about the letter? No I can't. Paul himself wrote it in 2Cor 5.

The natural way is that the scriptures testifies of a person. Yes! But did the Pharisees see it so.

You're telling me what is the right thing. I'm saying Yes, but look at people not walking in the right thing.

Do you get me now?

Odunayaw:
You're free to stay with common sense sir. But with Justice, scriptures tell me God deals generationally.

If I'm to refute I inherited sin, I'd accept I evoluted from apes. What's your idea of your human roots?

If I remember correctly you are a lawyer. You do understand the concept of arbitration. Heck, you practice mediation in the courtroom. Does your client not know they're guilty or not guilty?


But alas, if I asked you, what was your life and practice of Christianity like I'm sure I'd get the nursery rhyme "Read your Bible, pray everyday" lasan
Man would spend so much time and patience understanding plants and science... in fact, understanding their partners or spouse but perform no diligence with God.
Did you not read that God is a rewarder of them that diligently seek Him?

There's no justice if it does not accord with common sense.

Not believing in original sin and the theory of evolution are exclusive. I can believe one without believing the other.
I have not really studied evolution to make an informed choice. So right now I believe God created me without sin. Sin is a man made concept derived from religion and cultural norms.

Yes man should seek his God diligently but just know that there are many ways to seek God. A Buddhist seeks for spiritual enlightenment in the way he knows, a Muslim too, a Shinto too, an African traditionalist too,as does a Christian. Everyone gets rewarded.

Odunayaw:
Oga mi, you are repeating what I'm saying.

ONCE YOU MEET GOD, YOU'VE MET HIS WORD!
But we have seen from biblical times till now that you can MEET THE WORD (WRITTEN DOWN) AND NOT MEET GOD!
Jesus himself said this to the Pharisees John 5:39. Forget about the letter? No I can't. Paul himself wrote it in 2Cor 5.

The natural way is that the scriptures testifies of a person. Yes! But did the Pharisees see it so.

You're telling me what is the right thing. I'm saying Yes, but look at people not walking in the right thing.

Do you get me now?

from the onset I made you understand that meeting the word didn't mean the words on the Bible but christ

In Christian thought once you say the Word, every Christian knows or ought to know you are not referring to letters. That's why I said forget this talk about the letter. I very much know the deadness that comes from the letter devoid of true spiritual content.

So I'm telling you now that whether I met christ or not is of no meaning to me. Just yesterday I was musing and saying to myself that if I were the one Jesus appeared to just as he appeared to Paul, I would tell him I cannot be his mouthpiece to other men. He should go reveal himself to them just as he did to me.

Mujtahida:

You see the whole thing you wrote here? It's just to say Adam sinned and became a debtor and therefore I as a child of Adam is a debtor.

But this is just a story just like you concocted an imaginary story about debt and family. If I ask you where you got this Adam talk from now, you will point me to the Bible. That's where the problem comes from.

But let me take your analogy and answer it from the point of law human law ooo which appears to have more common sense in it than "divine law".

You cannot under our law exact a debt I am owing from my son, my wife or my friends or family. You will fail in court and even incur damages. So na una Sabi which kind divine law will attribute Adam's sin to me as a debt and still be just in your estimation. Thank God human beings have more sense than to frame laws that operate this way. Society would have been in total chaos. Imagine you facing criminal charges and civil claims in court for a debt your father incurred which you might even know nothing about. I'm sure if it happens to you this way you will protest against the injustice of it but here you are twisting natural justice just because of a story in the Bible.

You're tying yourself
My analogy spoke of the debtor taking away belongings. This is the sting of debt(sin) causing death. Obviously, as the child grows up, he can enter his own debt abi? But will he have one less furniture in the house every week? Yes!
I never spoke of facing criminal charges for your father's sin. And in the bigger picture (of my story), the child has enough hands to get him into trouble. Likewise us, do you want to tell me you haven't committed enough sin to damn you?

Again I ask, do you believe you descended from apes. What's your evolution theory? x

If you collect your will from your Granny you are absolutely under no legal obligation to pay your father's debt with it. Shey Bible says that a man and his wife are one flesh. Okay na, go and grab a man's wife over the man's debt and see. It's just that in Nigeria people usually use the police which is really an aberration because Nigeria is a lawless society but even at that if such a case goes to court you will pay damages to the wife for your actions. In other places you dare not try it at all. So on the basis of law, human law ooo, this Adam thing is just a farce.

Just look at the bolded. Like any sane child wouldn't rid off the shame of a debt if he could.
Let's stay within the ambit of my story shall we?


My parable isn't to draw the whole story but to explain a small part. If you claim you were a Christian I'm sure you must have read Paul's letter to the Romans and Galatians. I'd say you read it again.

and in case you think I'm trying to convert you or so. No, I can't do that, even God can't force it. I'm only discussing and answering questions about this Faith.


But if you don't mind, how did you enter Christianity by the way? Family religion or?

Mujtahida:

There's no justice if it does not accord with common sense.

Not believing in original sin and the theory of evolution are exclusive. I can believe one without believing the other.
I have not really studied evolution to make an informed choice. So right now I believe God created me without sin. Sin is a man made concept derived from religion and cultural norms.

Yes man should seek his God diligently but just know that there are many ways to seek God. A Buddhist seeks for spiritual enlightenment in the way he knows, a Muslim too, a Shinto too, an African traditionalist too,as does a Christian. Everyone gets rewarded.

Is sin of only physical effect or both physical, soulish and spiritual? You don't even understand the concept of sin, do you?
Even learned habits, mannerisms, phobias latch on to the soul and is passed down to offsprings. How much more a spiritual thing?
Where does a toddler learn to lie? How did that toddler know to lie? When we say sin, we're saying the sin nature.


The other "worshippers" you mention cannot tell us their reward even after all the centuries they have practiced it. I have enough experiential proof to this especially with the traditionalists.
Traditionalists and co that will still be coming to my hostel at night to ask questions and hear truth

Mujtahida:

from the onset I made you understand that meeting the word didn't mean the words on the Bible but christ

In Christian thought once you say the Word, every Christian knows or ought to know you are not referring to letters. That's why I said forget this talk about the letter. I very much know the deadness that comes from the letter devoid of true spiritual content.

So I'm telling you now that whether I met christ or not is of no meaning to me. Just yesterday I was musing and saying to myself that if I were the one Jesus appeared to just as he appeared to Paul, I would tell him I cannot be his mouthpiece to other men. He should go reveal himself to them just as he did to me.

Okay. We're on the same page in your first two paragraphs.

However, this one you said in your last paragraph is just mouth Forget this thing. If your eye were opened to see the Spirit realm, you'd lose appetite, sleep and strength for days.

Na now I know say you're just walking in the realm of intellect. Some of us have touched and handled the Spirit realm. If you saw just the demons some called household idols, you'd have no strength to yarn what you plan to say to Jesus

And I'm not here to speak words only, you test what I'm saying

Cc: forgiveness

Odunayaw:
Cc: forgiveness

Thank you.

>

Odunayaw:
You're tying yourself
My analogy spoke of the debtor taking away belongings. This is the sting of debt(sin) causing death. Obviously, as the child grows up, he can enter his own debt abi? But will he have one less furniture in the house every week? Yes!
I never spoke of facing criminal charges for your father's sin. And in the bigger picture (of my story), the child has enough hands to get him into trouble. Likewise us, do you want to tell me you haven't committed enough sin to damn you?

Again I ask, do you believe you descended from apes. What's your evolution theory? x

Just look at the bolded. Like any sane child wouldn't rid off the shame of a debt if he could.
Let's stay within the ambit of my story shall we?


My parable isn't to draw the whole story but to explain a small part. If you claim you were a Christian I'm sure you must have read Paul's letter to the Romans and Galatians. I'd say you read it again.

and in case you think I'm trying to convert you or so. No, I can't do that, even God can't force it. I'm only discussing and answering questions about this Faith.


But if you don't mind, how did you enter Christianity by the way? Family religion or?

Your are just moralizing. In law nobody can be held liable for the debt of another. That position of law is settled. That is the summary of what I said. So your picking on 'criminal charges' does not invalidate my point based on your analogy and the Bible story. Even the Bible sef in Ezekiel said everyman will die for his own sin.

"The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him."

So forget all this twisting and turning. Even if the Bible says I inherit Adam's debt, na them sabi. A father's debt is his debt. Shikena. Nothing like shame because you cannot use shame to argue in court. It has no effect whatsoever.

Odunayaw:
Is sin of only physical effect or both physical, soulish and spiritual? You don't even understand the concept of sin, do you?
Even learned habits, mannerisms, phobias latch on to the soul and is passed down to offsprings. How much more a spiritual thing?
Where does a toddler learn to lie? How did that toddler know to lie? When we say sin, we're saying the sin nature.


The other "worshippers" you mention cannot tell us their reward even after all the centuries they have practiced it. I have enough experiential proof to this especially with the traditionalists.
Traditionalists and co that will still be coming to my hostel at night to ask questions and hear truth

That I do not believe in sin as an offense against God because God never told me that I offended him does not mean that I do not understand the Christian concept of sin. I can tell you that I understand it deeply. I simply don't just believe in it.

Man is a conscious being and because he is conscious, he can distort even his own nature turning man into woman, he can distort time, he can distort facts. Lying has nothing to do with sin but rather an expression of man's consciousness. As consciousness grows, so does the ability to lie. It's just a cognitive phenomenon.

The whole sin thing is all written in a book. God never told me that I sinned against him. Before you talk about conscience,just know that conscience is based on societal conditioning. One man will feel guilty for eating pig, another man will feel nada.

Reward in terms of? Muslims cannot point at any reward? Buddhist and others too? Are traditionalist the only categories of worshippers? Only Christians can point at a reward? So I ask again, reward in terms of what?

Odunayaw:
You're tying yourself
My analogy spoke of the debtor taking away belongings. This is the sting of debt(sin) causing death. Obviously, as the child grows up, he can enter his own debt abi? But will he have one less furniture in the house every week? Yes!
I never spoke of facing criminal charges for your father's sin. And in the bigger picture (of my story), the child has enough hands to get him into trouble. Likewise us, do you want to tell me you haven't committed enough sin to damn you?

Again I ask, do you believe you descended from apes. What's your evolution theory? x

Just look at the bolded. Like any sane child wouldn't rid off the shame of a debt if he could.
Let's stay within the ambit of my story shall we?


My parable isn't to draw the whole story but to explain a small part. If you claim you were a Christian I'm sure you must have read Paul's letter to the Romans and Galatians. I'd say you read it again.

and in case you think I'm trying to convert you or so. No, I can't do that, even God can't force it. I'm only discussing and answering questions about this Faith.


But if you don't mind, how did you enter Christianity by the way? Family religion or?

I told you that I have not studied evolution deeply to make an informed decision yet you are asking me whether I believe that I descended from apes? Did you not read where I believe that God created me sinless. You want me to start talking about evolution so that you can go to town. I will not indulge you.

Bro, you see your last paragraph? Let me cut to the chase and tell you what is behind that question. In your mind, I became a Christian because of family without 'una born again' 'personal encounter bla bla'. Your answer is in Hebrews. Even people who have tasted (as you people claim oo) the powers of the coming age, the holy spirit, the goodness of the word of God etc, do 'fall away'. So stop trying to reach that point where you can say oohh he fell away because he did not experience the real thing because Hebrews let's you know that even those who experience 'the real thing' you do fall.

Talking about family, there's 99% chance that if you were born in Saudi Arabia you would be a Muslim.

Mujtahida:

I told you that I have not studied evolution deeply to make an informed decision yet you are asking me whether I believe that I descended from apes? Did you not read where I believe that God created me sinless. You want me to start talking about evolution so that you can go to town. I will not indulge you.

Bro, you see your last paragraph? Let me cut to the chase and tell you what is behind that question. In your mind, I became a Christian because of family without 'una born again' 'personal encounter bla bla'. Your answer is in Hebrews. Even people who have tasted (as you people claim oo) the powers of the coming age, the holy spirit, the goodness of the word of God etc, do 'fall away'. So stop trying to reach that point where you can say oohh he fell away because he did not experience the real thing because Hebrews let's you know that even those who experience 'the real thing' you do fall.

Talking about family, there's 99% chance that if you were born in Saudi Arabia you would be a Muslim.

Nawa, see how you presumed! Look bro, I didn't cajole or force you here. I made an offer to discuss and you obliged.
If you're going to start sounding like I'm irritating you abeg make I close the thread. Haba