TenQ:

My mind is a subset of my Soul. I think with my mind. I store and process data and information with my mind. Logic is processed by the mind. The summation of everything the mind does is our INTELLECT.

I have repeatedly told you that our SOUL consist of the Faculty of our WILL, EMOTION and INTELLECT.

How you refuse to comprehend this baffles me.

I do comprehend it, TenQ. You are saying that your mind is a subset of your soul, which consists of the Faculty of your WILL, EMOTION and INTELLECT.

Now, do you comprehend that my mind is where my own intellect resides, and my mind controls my WILL and EMOTION, and that what you call soul, has no part to play at all?

TenQ:

Now, please answer my question:

Let me rephrase:
About The Body is a Slave to the Mind.
Animals have a mind just as humans have their mind.

Is this a true statement or not?

What then rules the other in an animal: is it the animals body or the animals mind?

I answered your question. Instinct is what rules over the animal.

budaatum:
Instinct, mostly. Which is why they poo anywhere and don't build houses.

Humans, on the other hand, grow their mind by developing their intellect so that they can "Be fruitful and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it; and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth”.

Read this or listen, to see the difference between instinct led animals and human mind use.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0cpkCP29Dhg

TenQ:
My Soul (through my WILL, EMOTION and INTELLECT (mind)) rule my Body.
I subject my Soul to the knowledge of God's words and God's will so that my Soul acquires WISDOM to rule my body. This make me direct my WILL, EMOTION and INTELLECT to rule my Body excellently

If not for this, I could be come a savage being

And that is you, subjecting your "Soul to the knowledge of God's words and God's will so that your Soul acquires WISDOM to rule your body", while I wilfully direct my own mind to the deliberate acquisition of knowledge from all sources so that I may understand and acquire Wisdom to rule my body and all by myself instead of leaving it to some soul of mine.

We do not have to be the same, TenQ. Your soul acquires Wisdom to rule you, while I learn with my mind to rule myself. It might explain why you are wiser than me.

budaatum:

I do comprehend it, TenQ. You are saying that your mind is a subset of your soul, which consists of the Faculty of your WILL, EMOTION and INTELLECT.

Now, do you comprehend that my mind is where my own intellect resides, and my mind controls my WILL and EMOTION, and that what you call soul, has no part to play at all?


I answered your question. Instinct is what rules over the animal.




And that is you, subjecting your "Soul to the knowledge of God's words and God's will so that your Soul acquires WISDOM to rule your body", while I wilfully direct my own mind to the deliberate acquisition of knowledge from all sources so that I may understand and acquire Wisdom to rule my body and all by myself instead of leaving it to some soul of mine.

We do not have to be the same, TenQ. Your soul acquires Wisdom to rule you, while I learn with my mind to rule myself. It might explain why you are wiser than me.

Meaning that what I call the SOUL is what you call the MIND both having exactly the same attributes of WILL, EMOTION and INTELLECT; right?

I think the Soul is what empowers/energises the brain (just like a computer program energises the CPU of a computer)

On the contrary, it seems to me that you think that the Mind is just an attribute of the Brain. Is this opinion of mine about you correct?

budaatum:

I do comprehend it, TenQ. You are saying that your mind is a subset of your soul, which consists of the Faculty of your WILL, EMOTION and INTELLECT.

Now, do you comprehend that my mind is where my own intellect resides, and my mind controls my WILL and EMOTION, and that what you call soul, has no part to play at all?


I answered your question. Instinct is what rules over the animal.




And that is you, subjecting your "Soul to the knowledge of God's words and God's will so that your Soul acquires WISDOM to rule your body", while I wilfully direct my own mind to the deliberate acquisition of knowledge from all sources so that I may understand and acquire Wisdom to rule my body and all by myself instead of leaving it to some soul of mine.

We do not have to be the same, TenQ. Your soul acquires Wisdom to rule you, while I learn with my mind to rule myself. It might explain why you are wiser than me.

Instinct is an unlearned knowing/knowledge of a living being. Both humans and animals have some basic instincts.

Most carnivorous animals have to learn to hunt for food, whereas animals like reptiles have the instinct to hunt for food.

Doesn't instinct look like programming to you (since they are not learnt).
1. Are Instincts a product of the mind?
2. If the mind is just an attribute of the brain, where does the unlearned knowledge in instinct come from? (Does instinct originate from the brain?)

budaatum:
I do comprehend it, TenQ. You are saying that your mind is a subset of your soul, which consists of the Faculty of your WILL, EMOTION and INTELLECT.

Now, do you comprehend that my mind is where my own intellect resides, and my mind controls my WILL and EMOTION, and that what you call soul, has no part to play at all?

I answered your question. Instinct is what rules over the animal.

And that is you, subjecting your "Soul to the knowledge of God's words and God's will so that your Soul acquires WISDOM to rule your body", while I wilfully direct my own mind to the deliberate acquisition of knowledge from all sources so that I may understand and acquire Wisdom to rule my body and all by myself instead of leaving it to some soul of mine.

We do not have to be the same, TenQ. Your soul acquires Wisdom to rule you, while I learn with my mind to rule myself. It might explain why you are wiser than me.

Matthew 22:37-38
'37Yeshua said to him,
“You shall love THE LORD JEHOVAH your God from all your heart
and from all your soul
and from all your power
and from all your mind” (i.e. and with all your understanding)
38“This is the great and the first commandment.”'

What is wisdom?
Wisdom has to do with making good, correct and/or right choices. It is about making wise judgments and not foolish judgments
For example, crossing a busy motorway blindly is a foolish or unwise thing to do, however taking the overhead pedestrian bridge to cross a motorway, is wisdom

Now settling back on soul and mind. One's expected to incorporate and inculcate both the soul and mind dynamics. Not one, without the other.

Listen to this, your soul, uses your brain, to store images conjured up in your mind, while your spirit man, records, your every thoughts, actions, deeds, and words. Yes, records them all, as they all, can and will be used, against you on the Last Judgment, Final Judgment, Day of Reckoning, Day of Judgment, Judgment Day, Doomsday or The Day of the Lord, loll, when we'll be evaluated and judged. Everything will be exposed, not a secret will be hidden from sight. We will, be standing, there facing the records, stark butt naked again, just like, it was, in the beginning with A&E (i.e. Genesis 2:25)

Life is an exam, and its result will be announced on the Last Judgment, Final Judgment, Day of Reckoning, Day of Judgment, Judgment Day, Doomsday or The Day of the Lord

_{Personal text: Jesus is not a theologian. He is God who told stories.}

budaatum:
I see we are back to the soul.

Did you not notice how often Jesus said, "it was written". Are you not aware that much has been written since Jesus time?

Where he is written to have said, "greater things will you do", it also means you will read more and know more that he did instead of just believing what you read in one book.

TenQ, does your soul rule you or do you rule yourself with your mind?

"Mind/soul" is a false statement. The two are not the same thing.

Here are a few differences between soul and mind:
1. No finite being, can kill, destroy or change your soul, however, your mind on a particular subject matter, can be can killed, destroyed or changed
2. The soul, shrinks or expands, in proportion to one’s love, and the mind shrinks or expands in proportion to one’s wisdom.
3. Making practical and effective use of all of your soul, is a step, towards nobleness, while making practical and effective use of all of your mind, is a step, towards brilliance.
4. To strengthen the body, we exercise muscles. To exercise the mind’s muscles, read, and to exercise the soul’s muscles, love.
5. The mind is an entire world view, while soul is an entire universe.
6. How do you strengthen yourself? Simple. Create balance. Feed your soul. Fuel your body. Expand your mind.
7. The mind is about reasoning, thoughts, intelligence and understandings while the soul is about experiences (e.g. of life, with/without the divine)
8. I can read your mind. I can see into your soul, loll
9. The soul gives you a personal identity that your mind links with or links to
10. The mind is a faculty in the soul

You are soul. You're a soul, that's lawfully and legally here, living on earth, to experience life with/without the divine.

TenQ:
Let me avoid using the term SOUL as it seems to offend you. awaken spiritually means to recognize your true Self, the Soul. The Soul is said to have.

Let me rephrase:
About The Body is a Slave to the Mind.
Animals have a mind just as humans have their mind.

Is this a true statement or not?

What then rules the other in an animal:
Is it the animals body or the animals mind?

The animals' body and mind, are both ruled by instincts and/or reflexes

_{Personal text: Jesus is not a theologian. He is God who told stories.}

budaatum:
Jesus said :
Mat 10:28:
"And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."

If the mind is just an extension of the brain, then, it can be killed by man.

How come Jesus said: men cannot kill the MIND soul. We can certainly completely destroy the brain.

What is your take on this?

TenQ:

About the mind and soul, I told you that the mind is a subset of the soul. The mind is limited to reasoning and intellectual ability who h I consider as restrictive. Our soul includes our WILL, EMOTION and INTELLECT (mind).

That, reasoning and intellectual ability is what distinguishes buda from TenQ. I develop my mind while your soul develops you, it seems.

budaatum:


That, reasoning and intellectual ability is what distinguishes buda from TenQ. I develop my mind while your soul develops you, it seems.

And I therefore asked you this question which you have ignored.

Jesus said :
Mat 10:28:
"And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."

If the mind is just an extension of the brain, then, it can be killed by man.

How come Jesus said: men cannot kill the MIND soul. We can certainly completely destroy the brain.

What is your take on this?

TenQ:

And I therefore asked you this question which you have ignored.

Jesus said :
Mat 10:28:
"And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."

If the mind is just an extension of the brain, then, it can be killed by man.

How come Jesus said: men cannot kill the MIND soul. We can certainly completely destroy the brain.

What is your take on this?

The entire you, body and mind and soul etc, can be killed by man, TenQ. They killed Jesus, but see how fruits he sowed live on and produce fruit a thousandfold.

What Jesus is teaching you is be bold and not worry about your body or your mind or your soul, just like he didn't and died for you, which I personally see as bad advice, for each should bear their own cross and die for their own cause.

budaatum:


The entire you, body and mind and soul etc, can be killed by man, TenQ. They killed Jesus, but see how fruits he sowed live on and produce fruit a thousandfold.

What Jesus is teaching you is be bold and not worry about your body or your mind or your soul, just like he didn't and died for you, which I personally see as bad advice, for each should bear their own cross and die for their own cause.

Why is it that God seems to be able to do what man cannot do with respect to killing the body and mind? Jesus emphatically said that man CANNOT kill the Soul : at least you agree that men can destroy the mind.

Mat 10:28:
"And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."

It would be good if this thread is subjected to natural laws and principles as against religions tenets.

TenQ:

Why is it that God seems to be able to do what man cannot do with respect to killing the body and mind? Jesus emphatically said that man CANNOT kill the Soul : at least you agree that men can destroy the mind.

Mat 10:28:
"And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."

DFOmobolla:
It would be good if this thread is subjected to natural laws and principles as against religions tenets.

I had done that earlier in this thread.
I have described that a human being is like a computer or an advanced AI robot with two components
1. A Hardware (the Body)
The tangible/physical part of man which consist of the Brain, Nervous System, Sensory Organs etc
2. The Software (the Soul)
The intangible nonphysical part of man which has three main attributes of the Will, Emotion and Intellect.

The parallels are remarkably similar.

Buda does not object that it seems that the man's body is controlled by a kind of software BUT he calls it the MIND (rather than the soul). He believes that the Mind is an integral part of the Brain. Unfortunately, I used examples of several activities of living beings that are not mind defined such as INTUITION and INSTINCTS (both are not controlled by the mind) they are preprogrammed behaviours.

He claims to follow Christ, hence my use of the scripture to help him refocus on the truth.

TenQ:

I had done that earlier in this thread.
I have described that a human being is like a computer or an advanced AI robot with two components
1. A Hardware (the Body)
The tangible/physical part of man which consist of the Brain, Nervous System, Sensory Organs etc
2. The Software (the Soul)
The intangible nonphysical part of man which has three main attributes of the Will, Emotion and Intellect.

The parallels are remarkably similar.

Buda does not object that it seems that the man's body is controlled by a kind of software BUT he calls it the MIND (rather than the soul). He believes that the Mind is an integral part of the Brain. Unfortunately, I used examples of several activities of living beings that are not mind defined such as INTUITION and INSTINCTS (both are not controlled by the mind) they are preprogrammed behaviours.

He claims to follow Christ, hence my use of the scripture to help him refocus on the truth.

Your assertions are right. But one correction the soul doesn't process thought the mind does that.

Do you believe in reincarnation?

DFOmobolla:


Your assertions are right. But one correction the soul doesn't process thought the mind does that.

Do you believe in reincarnation?

The mind is a component of the soul that intelligently process data, information and logic. The soul consists of the Will, Emotion and Intellect hence the mind is a subset of the soul.

I do not believe in reincarnation: it is senseless in all ramifications. I believe that every human soul is unique and eternal because a human being is also a spirit. When a human dies, he looses his physical body, but his spiritual body is still in Union with the soul.

Spirits have a beginning but no end unlike God who is the primary and eternal spirit.

TenQ:

The mind is a component of the soul that intelligently process data, information and logic. The soul consists of the Will, Emotion and Intellect hence the mind is a subset of the soul.

I do not believe in reincarnation: it is senseless in all ramifications. I believe that every human soul is unique and eternal because a human being is also a spirit. When a human dies, he looses his physical body, but his spiritual body is still in Union with the soul.

If you don't believe in reincarnation then it would be hard to impression on you the absolute individualities of mind and soul.
Mind is the databank of reality and everything within; emotions will experience and perception.
Soul is an inherited mass of life that house the knowledge of nature. People could tap into their soul for inspiration innovation invention.

Consider your mind as who you are, you soul as who you should be.

Spirits have a beginning but no end unlike God who is the primary and eternal spirit.

DFOmobolla:


If you don't believe in reincarnation then it would be hard to impression on you the absolute individualities of mind and soul.
Mind is the databank of reality and everything within; emotions will experience and perception.
Soul is an inherited mass of life that house the knowledge of nature. People could tap into their soul for inspiration innovation invention.

Consider your mind as who you are, you soul as who you should be.

A Human being has two natures
1. A physical nature:
By which they exist, feel and interact with the physical world.
2. A spiritual nature:
By which they exist, feel and interact with the spiritual world.

The soul is a store of knowledge, memory, personalities, emotions and character that share its nature with the body/physical nature and with the spirit/spiritual nature of man.

At death, man drops his physical body from the union of his body, soul and spirit. Hence, at death, man become like the angels (a union of soul and spirit).

Resurrection is the recombination of the body with the Living Soul (union of soul and spirit)

DFOmobolla:

Spirits have a beginning but no end unlike God who is the primary and eternal spirit.

Very true. Except that God as a spirit does not have a beginning not an end.
Angels are Sprits
Demons are spirits
Humans are also spirits

TenQ:

Why is it that God seems to be able to do what man cannot do with respect to killing the body and mind? Jesus emphatically said that man CANNOT kill the Soul : at least you agree that men can destroy the mind.

Mat 10:28:
"And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."

Sorry TenQ, but buda does not do God.

You should have recognised this by the fact that I do not bow down and worship imaginary souls.

budaatum:


Sorry TenQ, but buda does not do God.

You should have recognised this by the fact that I do not bow down and worship imaginary souls.

Thanks for coming out on that!

Everything just made sense!

TenQ:

Thanks for coming out on that!

Everything just made sense!

TenQ, here's another instance of you assuming to make sense of what you do not understand.

Pre-Socratic philosophers were mostly interested in cosmology, the beginning and the substance of the universe, but the inquiries of these early philosophers spanned the workings of the natural world as well as human society, ethics, and religion. They sought explanations based on natural law rather than the actions of gods. Their work and writing has been almost entirely lost. Knowledge of their views comes from testimonia, i.e. later authors' discussions of the work of pre-Socratics. Philosophy found fertile ground in the ancient Greek world because of the close ties with neighboring civilizations and the rise of autonomous civil entities, poleis.

Pre-Socratic philosophy began in the 6th century BCE with the three Milesians: Thales, Anaximander, and Anaximenes. They all attributed the arche (a word that could take the meaning of "origin," "substance" or "principle" ) of the world to, respectively, water, apeiron (the unlimited), and air governed by nous (mind or intelligence). Another three pre-Socratic philosophers came from nearby Ionian towns: Xenophanes, Heraclitus, and Pythagoras. Xenophanes is known for his critique of the anthropomorphism of gods. Heraclitus, who was notoriously difficult to understand, is known for his maxim on impermanence, ta panta rhei, and for attributing fire to be the arche of the world. Pythagoras created a cult-like following that advocated that the universe was made up of numbers. The Eleatic school (Parmenides, Zeno of Elea, and Melissus) followed in the 5th century BCE. Parmenides claimed that only one thing exists and nothing can change. Zeno and Melissus mainly defended Parmenides' opinion. Anaxagoras and Empedocles offered a pluralistic account of how the universe was created. Leucippus and Democritus are known for their atomism, and their views that only void and matter exist. The Sophists advanced critical thinking and philosophical relativism.

The impact of the pre-Socratics has been enormous. The pre-Socratics invented some of the central concepts of Western civilization, such as naturalism and rationalism, and paved the way for scientific methodology.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pre-Socratic_philosophy

Those who find their mind and learn how to use it will have started In the Beginning and gone on asking and knocking and seeking for wealth moths can not consume instead of merely believing and trembling.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-pDO2hLLWLw

Hello, everyone, deepsight, Lordreed, budaatum, TenQ and others

My apologies for not responding the next day as promised. I have been engaged in a lot of activities which made it practically impossible to really settle and pen down anything.

I don't pretend to know it all . Of course no one knows it all. I will be stating the "facts" as I know and understand it.

And because it will be a long read, I have decided to divide it into two or three parts. The first is background information and random responses to comments made by others here, while the final part, will contain definitions and explanations for the concept of the "true self" I subscribe to , with evidence not scientific evidence, to identify this self , its emergence, and its relationship with the body it occupies.

However, before I proceed, I would like to issue an important disclaimer; that whatever opinions or statements of "facts" that I am going to make is at the discretion of the reader to accept or reject. It would be irresponsible to force a sense of self of any kind on others that may result in mental confusion or a distortion of one's personal reality.


In any case, I do believe that my thoughts on the subject matter in this thread would be enough to stimulate further thinking .


Why is consciousness or mind still a mystery?

Contrary to what has been confidently asserted here and believed by some persons elsewhere, consciousness or what is mind is still not answered by science.They may be far from answering it at the moment.

Neuroscientists have not arrived at any definite conclusion as to the true source of the human consciousness. It's still a mystery to them. They are loath to answer directly the question of what is Consciousness or mind because at the moment, its difficult to localised our subjective experiences to any part of the brain .

All attempts to do so, using observable brain activities or results from modern brain scanners has not produced the much needed result ,other than an impproved undestanding of how the visible brain works in relation to the other parts of the human body. This is very good and helpful for us at this time.

However, insisting that an investigation of the observable activities of the human brain, which are believed to correspond with inner states of consciousness, is enough for a comprehensive understanding of mind or who we truly are, is almost the same as someone who would insist that viewing from their device the life stats of an ongoing football match, without watching the game directly, is enough to know what is actually happening inside the football pitch.

Live football stats for instance, without watching the game directly ,will show a goal has been scored, but will not let you see the exact ball movements made by the players that has led to the goal.

There's much more going on within our inner world, subjectively, that we ourselves are unaware of, ,not to talk of an outsider who doesn't have any means to directly access it.

Whatever we say and do proceeds from thoughts that we, the owners of brain( the being within) generate from immpression. received through it. However, thoughts which forms mind is not directly observable nor testable by any known scientific instrumentation, except by alternative methods which are not too "popular" and available to those in the main body of the sciences. except individually

So it's difficult , for, instance, to really determine if someone is acting out genuine thoughts or simply faking it. We are all guilty of this at certain times, but some persons have mastered the art of deception so well that even if it were possible to attach a mini brain scanner to their brains to monitor its activity it can't be seen they're living a double live, as the results from the scanner will read the same as that of someone behaving sincerely.

Continuation,
The inability to observe and test thoughts which exist as thoughtforms; energized thoughts , not directly associated with any particle of matter , is why scientists are blind to the true cause of the placebo effect , as they can't at this time observe firsthand how thoughtforms exert pressure on brains to trigger the placebo response


Brain scanners do not show thoughts which form mind, the best they do is to show blood flow in a region of neurons when we , the owner of brains, are thinking. This, together with other brain activities observed ( neural correlates ) is then interpreted as evidence that matter is the source of mind or consciousness.

The claim that mind or consciousness, is an emergent property of matter or biological processes, is not supported by science The claim is only made on the assumption that electrical charges in our brains, and other factors not yet known, has made it possible for mind to emerge "magically" There's no rational explanation for how this has happened.

We can't see our we are separate from our bodies because most of us have never had any conscious experience of their consciousness operating any where else apart from the bodies they have occupied. But it's possible to separate one's consciousness from the body., while at the same time, still retaining a full awareness of our body

It can be done. In fact, we all do so unconsciously every night when we go to sleep in an experience we have come to describe as dreaming. Some persons who are. proficient at it, can have their consciousness present anywhere outside their bodies whenever they choose to.


There are certain phenomena science won't be able to explain. I am not anti science .I rely a lot on the sciences to understand my outer body and the world around me.

The world we live is not exactly what we think it is or may not be what we think it is., and we are also not what we think we are The methodology of science, which is a human construct , and not perfect, is founded on a paradigm of belief which presumes that the observable universe and it's content is the only thing worthy of scientific investigation and consideration.

The problem with this, is that, if there's a phenomenon whose cause is unknown, or can't be fully observed, we only proceed to work with what is in front of us, which may be effect , that we have mistaken for cause, thereby drawing a wrong
conclusion from what we are only able to observe.


Most people who rely completely on the sciences to interpret the world around them are not even aware of its limitations. The ones who pretend that they do, usually betray themselves with comments like , " oh one day science will be able to manufacture a machine that will eventually develop human consciousness with the capacity to think and experience live exactly like humans" .

The only time the mystery of consciousness would be resolved, would be when science is able to come up with a device to make it possible to observe clearly all that happens subjectively within the human being and also outside of it.

Before I end this part, I would like to respond to the index case of a certain Phineas Gage brought in by someone here to argue against the idea that mind is separate from brains.


My response will be a question to answer back.


If mind is not separate from brains, how can it be explained, the cases of people with distorted personalities, but whose brains are not damaged or defective in any way. Also ,how can it be explained cases of people with brain defects that should normally result in behavior impairment that did not turn out as expected; their personalities remained intact. Neuroscientist in their studies to understand mind, have been observing those kind of cases in different people.

. It is obvious the person who brought in the Gage case to support is argument has not done enough research.

continuation

In the final part of my presentation, I would explain clearly what actually happenedd to Phineas Gage after he had that unfortunate incident . The case has been wrongly misconstrued to support the claim that mind is not separate from brain.






Now, to the most important questions.

1, If our consciousness or mind has not emerged from matter or biological processes from where has it emerged from. And what is the exact nature of consciousness or who we are.

2, If we are not the same as the bodies we occupy, and are somehow separate from it, why are we not conscious of this fact.

. 3. if science that is in batter position to know, is unable to answer the question of mind or consciousness ,how did some of us get to know what we know and be certain about it?

Answers in the nextt part.

triplechoice:
Hello, everyone, deepsight, Lordreed, budaatum, TenQ and others

to any part of the brain .

All attempts to do so, using observable brain activities or results from modern brain scanners has not produced the much needed result ,other than an impproved undestanding of how the visible brain works in relation to the other parts of the human body. This is very good and helpful for us at this time.

However, insisting that an investigation of the observable activities of the human brain, which are believed to correspond with inner states of consciousness, is enough for a comprehensive understanding of mind or who we truly are, is almost the same as someone who would insist that viewing from their device the life stats of an ongoing football match, without watching the game directly, is enough to know what is actually happening inside the football pitch.

Live football stats for instance, without watching the game directly ,will show a goal has been scored, but will not let you see the exact ball movements made by the players that has led to the goal.

There's much more going on within our inner world, subjectively, that we ourselves are unaware of, ,not to talk of an outsider who doesn't have any means to directly access it.

Whatever we say and do proceeds from thoughts that we, the owners of brain( the being within) generate from immpression. received through it. However, thoughts which forms mind is not directly observable nor testable by any known scientific instrumentation, except by alternative methods which are not too "popular" and available to those in the main body of the sciences. except individually

...

The Mind (a subset of the Soul) is akin to the Software which is IMMATERIAL running or being executed in the Hardware (Body- specifically the DNA, Brain) of a person.

Scientists can study the body but they will never find the software. Just like in a computer hardware, except you have the power to Reprogram a computer, you can never see the software.

A Rejection of the non-physical by science is like "scientist" who insist on studying and describing an Advanced AI robot strictly by physical means. Of course, he has failed even before starting!

triplechoice:
Continuation,
The inability to observe and test thoughts which exist as thoughtforms; energized thoughts , not directly associated with any particle of matter , is why scientists are blind to the true cause of the placebo effect , as they can't at this time observe firsthand how thoughtforms exert pressure on brains to trigger the placebo response


Brain scanners do not show thoughts which form mind, the best they do is to show blood flow in a region of neurons when we , the owner of brains, are thinking. This, together with other brain activities observed ( neural correlates ) is then interpreted as evidence that matter is the source of mind or consciousness.

The claim that mind or consciousness, is an emergent property of matter or biological processes, is not supported by science The claim is only made on the assumption that electrical charges in our brains, and other factors not yet known, has made it possible for mind to emerge "magically" There's no rational explanation for how this has happened.

We can't see our we are separate from our bodies because most of us have never had any conscious experience of their consciousness operating any where else apart from the bodies they have occupied. But it's possible to separate one's consciousness from the body., while at the same time, still retaining a full awareness of our body

It can be done. In fact, we all do so unconsciously every night when we go to sleep in an experience we have come to describe as dreaming. Some persons who are. proficient at it, can have their consciousness present anywhere outside their bodies whenever they choose to.


There are certain phenomena science won't be able to explain. I am not anti science .I rely a lot on the sciences to understand my outer body and the world around me.

The world we live is not exactly what we think it is or may not be what we think it is., and we are also not what we think we are The methodology of science, which is a human construct , and not perfect, is founded on a paradigm of belief which presumes that the observable universe and it's content is the only thing worthy of scientific investigation and consideration.

The problem with this, is that, if there's a phenomenon whose cause is unknown, or can't be fully observed, we only proceed to work with what is in front of us, which may be effect , that we have mistaken for cause, thereby drawing a wrong
conclusion from what we are only able to observe.


Most people who rely completely on the sciences to interpret the world around them are not even aware of its limitations. The ones who pretend that they do, usually betray themselves with comments like , " oh one day science will be able to manufacture a machine that will eventually develop human consciousness with the capacity to think and experience live exactly like humans" .

The only time the mystery of consciousness would be resolved, would be when science is able to come up with a device to make it possible to observe clearly all that happens subjectively within the human being and also outside of it.

Before I end this part, I would like to respond to the index case of a certain Phineas Gage brought in by someone here to argue against the idea that mind is separate from brains.


My response will be a question to answer back.


If mind is not separate from brains, how can it be explained, the cases of people with distorted personalities, but whose brains are not damaged or defective in any way. Also ,how can it be explained cases of people with brain defects that should normally result in behavior impairment that did not turn out as expected; their personalities remained intact. Neuroscientist in their studies to understand mind, have been observing those kind of cases in different people.

. It is obvious the person who brought in the Gage case to support is argument has not done enough research.

Question: do you think animals have minds independent of their bodies?

LordReed:


Question: do you think animals have minds independent of their bodies?

The other parts of my presentation not posted yet, already answered your question.

But since that has not come, I will answer you for now.



The terms, consciousness and mind are used interchangeably to mean the same thing, but they do not actually refer to the same thing.

Consciousness is the entity that inhabits the body at birth to enliven it. It is our true selves which exist as a force field of energy .It is often refer to as soul in religion and in other groups.

while mind is formed from the combination of thoughts this entity, consciousness, generates from the impression received through the brain, and also from the thoughts of others it has received.

Mind once formed, determines or shapens our human personality, the ego self, that we think we are.

Our personalities can change if we generate new thoughts to form a new mind, while the consciousness, our true selves, that forms mind remains what it is. We can become whatever we think different from what our current mind dictates for our brains.


Animals, just like humans also have consciousness. However, the animal consciousness has not evolved to a point where it can generate independent thoughts to form minds ,hence they are ruled mainly by instincts imbedded in their bodies which exert influence on their brains to control behavior. The inability to generate independent thoughts is why animals don't behave individually. They act almost the same, except they are conditioned to behave differently.

So do animals have minds independent of their bodies? I believe my explanation has provided the answer.

triplechoice:
The methodology of science, which is a human construct , and not perfect, is founded on a paradigm of belief which presumes that the observable universe and it's content is the only thing worthy of scientific investigation and consideration.

You've assumed far too much, triple, but the above is one I can't help pointing out.

First, science not a human construct. It is simply the use of the senses that you already have, and the scientific method is the precise method of using one's senses.

Second, science does not have this assumed "paradigm of belief which presumes that the observable universe and it's content is the only thing worthy of scientific investigation and consideration". Science has been applied to the unobservable too, or it would not be considering the mind it can not see, nor would the use of science have been able to be used to discover many things that are unobservable like relativity and evolution which are not so easily observed, or big bangs or black holes or neutrons and electrons and minds and consciousness, which science has the most to say about than any other investigative method which would also have to include the scientific method to be credible.

Science has been determined by the results produced in its exercise to be the best way to use one's senses, and as a method of discovery of the unknown has far exceeded any other method (belief, making up crap in one's head) that has ever been invented. But yes, we are not perfect human beings, and may not perfectly use our senses, hence must we constantly be perfecting ourselves by scientific learning to better use our senses.

As for the product of our minds, by thy fruits shall one know them, for a bad tree does not produce good fruit, and fruits one can clearly see unless one is blind.

I've added the words of a Scientist below so you may not so easily see my fruits (as in, understand what I mean) unless you apply science (your senses, and most especially, your mind). As a clue, the eye and it's ability to be used to see was the first sense humans were aware of, and the quote is from a book that teaches it's use.

TenQ:

Why is it that God seems to be able to do what man cannot do with respect to killing the body and mind? Jesus emphatically said that man CANNOT kill the Soul : at least you agree that men can destroy the mind.

Mat 10:28:
"And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."

First, Jesus never said. You read it in a book.

Second, the Jesus you claim said, was nailed to a cross and stabbed in the side and poisoned and died, so they obviously killed his body.

As for the Spirit of His Soul, as in, all we read he stood for and taught, that is what lives and can not be killed, Tenq. It is why it is said He is worshipped in Spirit today, though I would add, misunderstood.

P.s. This is a topic for a thread of its own. If you start one, hola.

budaatum:


You've assumed far too much, triple, but the above is one I can't help pointing out.

First, science not a human construct. It is simply the use of the senses that you already have, and the scientific method is the precise method of using one's senses.

Second, science does not have this assumed "paradigm of belief which presumes that the observable universe and it's content is the only thing worthy of scientific investigation and consideration". Science has been applied to the unobservable too, or it would not be considering the mind it can not see, nor would the use of science have been able to be used to discover many things that are unobservable like relativity and evolution which are not so easily observed, or big bangs or black holes or neutrons and electrons and minds and consciousness, which science has the most to say about than any other investigative method which would also have to include the scientific method to be credible.

Science has been determined by the results produced in its exercise to be the best way to use one's senses, and as a method of discovery of the unknown has far exceeded any other method (belief, making up crap in one's head) that has ever been invented. But yes, we are not perfect human beings, and may not perfectly use our senses, hence must we constantly be perfecting ourselves by scientific learning to better use our senses.

As for the product of our minds, by thy fruits shall one know them, for a bad tree does not produce good fruit, and fruits one can clearly see unless one is blind.

I've added the words of a Scientist below so you may not so easily see my fruits (as in, understand what I mean) unless you apply science (your senses, and most especially, your mind). As a clue, the eye and it's ability to be used to see was the first sense humans were aware of, and the quote is from a book that teaches it's use.

Maybe I didn't make myself clear enough.

The scientific method of inquiry,not just using one's senses alone to know things, is what I called a human construct. It was developed by humans. Those who practice science as a discipline are giving rigorous training under this method so they can use it to properly make observation and conduct experiments to confirm what is observed.

The scientific method can't be perfect because as humans we dont know everything about the world we live in to be able to come up with a perfect method to interpret it.

How do we arrive at the conclusion that our world( also the extended universe) and it's contents is only interpreted by our senses which are limited, and the scientific method which trained scientist admit are not also perfect, if not that we believe it to be so ?

budaatum:


First, Jesus never said. You read it in a book.

What other means can you know what Jesus said or not said to make this claim?

budaatum:

Second, the Jesus you claim said, was nailed to a cross and stabbed in the side and poisoned and died, so they obviously killed his body.

Of course, men can kill the Body.
There is no denial that men has power to destroy and kill the body

budaatum:

As for the Spirit of His Soul, as in, all we read he stood for and taught, that is what lives and can not be killed, Tenq. It is why it is said He is worshipped in Spirit today, though I would add, misunderstood.

P.s. This is a topic for a thread of its own. If you start one, hola.

The spirit is the "spirit visible" bodily form of existence. So that Two Angels have spiritual identities or form by which they are distinguishable from one another.

The Soul is the self identity of a personality. It seem to be formless but is the "software" that powers the Body and Spirit form of existence. The person you call ME, I, MYSELF is the Soul.

LordReed:


Question: do you think animals have minds independent of their bodies?

Animals have their minds (a subset of their soul) independent from their bodies although without the body the soul is like a software without a hardware.

A software without a hardware is useless: as a soul without the body is useless.
A hardware without the software is also useless: as a body without the software is useless.

Death of animals occur when their soul disconnect from their body