shotster50:

@ Pleep and co

I am not advocating for any of the isms, but if I were given the choice, communism is definitely not possible in Nigeria, unless of course there is a major revolution to wipe the elite. Someone is asking for Nigeria to stop copying the west, What better solution do you proffer then? Capitalism has failed Nigeria, and so will your beloved communism if it were to be adopted , The idea of wealth equalisation as far as Nigeria is concerned, is simply stuff dreams are made of. You and I know that baring miracle i wont happen.

pleep:

it seems to me, that people are not debating with me, but rather debating against communism. like i said earlier[b] i[/b] am not advocating pure communism. Does it not occur to you guys that when stalin and lenin etc siezed private property and tried to equalize wealth, communism was in its early stages? it has matured since then into what we see in China, Cuba and some of the socialist countries. Communist ideals have been tempered with capitalism, much like capitalism in the U.S has been tempered with "communist" ideals like medicare.
i hope you know that income disparity is the best indicator of the societal health of a country. . .
so China is "criminalizing hard working achevers" you prefer jungle justice? And you need to consider how capitalism is always abused. Think about the 1930's depression, the 1981 reccesion the 2007 reccesion the SAP that ruined the entire economy of a continent, the failing Euro-zone, Fiat currency, debt etc. . .

pleep:

Let me say again, this is not about pure communism. Why is that when we talk about capitalism we bring up highly regulated liberal capitalism (like the U.S) but when communism is brought up we take it to the extreme?

There are no pure capitalsim nations, they have failed just like the communist ones did. Remember the great depression? that was caused by pure capitalism.

Places where liberal comunism has succeded are China, and the best example Cuba. You may think that Cuba is an awefull place but compare it to the rest of latin america the cubans live much better. The standard of living, and healthcare is better, the education and life expectancy is higher etc.

Why is China doing so much better than india? The answer is communism. India's democracy has bogged it down, While China's one party state has accelerated growth because they are able to make things happen without senseless beurocracy.

Nigeria is an example of where capitalsim is failing, we need to stop senselesly coping what people are doing in the west because our circumstances are too different. NIGERIA IS A RESOURCE BASED ECONOMY, most of our money comes from selling oil not the 'incentive' of the private sector, so redistrubing that wealth (not in the form of handouts) would improve the life on Nigerians thats a fact.
Once average ppl have access to money they can break the cycle of poverty and begin building bussinesses and creating jobs.

kodewrita:

we are simply having a theoretical discussion. Communism will definitely never take root here.

Recessions are part of the cycle. Its a result of an imperfect market and not to be feared. It is the natural cycle. Communism itself is artificial in trying to artificially fix prices instead of allowing demand to control the price itself.

I would rather we ensure equality in other areas education, medical care, power etc and leave the wealth issue. Each man deserves the fruit of his labor and we should not reward laziness. Making everyone equal will result in everyone being equally miserable. period.

pleep:

haha, thats what they said in Russia.

pleep:

No, reccesions are just nature trying to correct itself.

pleep:

I see you gave an indirect answer. You guys need to stop lying to yourself. Nigeria's economy is not based on anything inventive, ingenuitive or w/e

pleep:

The richest people in the country are usually also the dumbest.

pleep:

And by hording all the wealth they prevent money from reaching the poor inventive people who could use that money to build bussinesses and make employment which would create a nice mixed capitalist/communist economy.

So communism with its "rules from the top" approach is going to make nigerians inventive

Its easier to believe that than to accept that these are a set of natively intelligent individuals who use their understanding of human relations and the inner workings of power to devastating effect to enrich themselves.

Money is not a finite resource and its value is only realised when given out. Create something they have to pay for and you'll get the money. simple.

pleep:

I want to open everyones eyes to the hidden truth about our position in the world.

The international economy is based on capitalist principles, and the world is a macrocosm of what occurs in a capitalist nation. Capitalism is like a pyramid, the only way it can work is if the base is larger than the top. The people at the base do the grunt work, they are the factory workers, seamstresses etc, they do physically demanding work that does not require much education and skills, this is the lower class. The middle class is the management, while the top of the pyramid is the elites, investment bankers, stock brokers and CEO's, who use the work of the poor to create products to sell back to them for profit.Inevitably the divide between the richer and poorer gets wider (this is a proven fact).

This same principle applies to nations, the bottom of the Pyramid is Africa and the 3rd world countries, who mindlessly export raw materials. Economic policy that does not require much thought or education, and is physically demanding on the environment. While the top is japan, America and Europe, who use those raw materials to create products to sell back to Africa for a profit. At the end of the day there is a net loss for Africa, and gain for the north. Slowly the divide between the wealthy nations and the 3rd world widens.
in 1980 Africa was at 10% below the poverty line now it is at 80 %.
In this capitalist system the continued wealth of Europe and America depends on the continued poverty of the rest of humanity, because the base must be bigger than the top. The emergance of China to to top of the pyramid means even more problems for Africa, because the base must widen. Expect to see starvation in Nigeria 20 years from now.
Do you guys think i would go on an American forum and try to convince them that they should turn socialist? Never, because they actually benefit from capitalism. But to hear Africans supporting capitalism is like hearing a poor hungry sweatshop worker payed 2$ an hour, praising the unregulated capitalist economy of the united states in the late 19 century.

Krucifax:

Why not? Because it won't work. Not to sound pedantic but have you actually thought out what the implementation process would be?

1.The first flaw in the post is the assumption that any system of governance works without failings. Communism IS indeed evil,whilst on paper it sounds Utopian, in practise it is anything but. The basic tenet of Communism is wealth equalisation which can only be achieved by redistribution.

2.I assume your post is a description of something you "think" would improve the lot of everyone. This brings me back to the question of "implementation".

3.To implement a Communist system you would first need to seize any privately owned sizeable asset from the owners. Forgeting the stressed to death point of it removing incentive for innovation and economic productivity,how is it fair? You would in effect be robbing and criminalizing hard working achievers.

4.Something else you need to consider is how Communism is always abused when and wherever it is implemented. Have you asked yourself who does the so called redistribution of wealth Have you also stopped to consider the dictatorial and tyrannical laws that are always enacted to facilitate Communism

The most important point to remember is that contrary to popularly held beliefs, all men are NOT created equal!!! To treat everyone equal would mean demoting the hard working and talented whilst elevating the lazy and unproductive. This is a cold fact of life.

pleep:

you guys act as if America  has no communist practices. Medicare, social security, public school system, anti trust laws, healthcare etc. . .

all4naija:

^^^^
I only rephrased you dude! No hard feelings!

oshanka:
Communism is an economic stunting approach to provide for all yet loses all in d process of redistributing wealth, I am not much of a fan of capitalism either but it seems to bring out the best in individuals economically,while downplaying d illegit modes employed by some to accrue so much. That said my view of the best system for the african continent and Nigeria in particular is Social Welfarism where government provides basic infrastructures and amenities and offers it to the people at little or no cost, like is operated in most scadinavian countries, imagine 24hr electrity,free education to the university level,free health care and a good rail network. With social welfarism and nigerians ingenuity in business with hardwork,things will surely be brighter, A figment of social welfarism was all "Awo" did that propelled the west almost a decade ahead of other regions and made him a hero from his region, But all still boils down to a responsive goverment who understands the yearnings of its people.ple at little or no cost, like is operated in most scadinavian countries, imagine 24hr electrity,free education to the university level,free health care and a good rail network. With social welfarism and nigerians ingenuity in business with hardwork,things will surely be brighter, A figment of social welfarism was all "Awo" did that propelled the west almost a decade ahead of other regions and made him a hero from his region, But all still boils down to a responsive goverment who understands the yearnings of its people.

havoc37:
No. And capitalism is a system where everyone has a chance to succeed or fail (in America anyway). Communism is a system where everyone automatically fails.

sammybhaws:
Thank you for this topic. Look at Cuba that is practising communism and look at Russia let me not talk about China.... pls we should practise communism here because the rich grows richer because they own means of production and distribution and poor don't own a damn thing.. we are not united states of America.. we should find a type suitable for us and not following other countries.. The Government own everything and then distributes it.. Nice one for bringing this up

ektbear:

This is a silly generalization. OK, exclude those in the top 5 or 10% who steal. How much can they even be, .1% or so of the total population of naija? Are the remainder not far more productive than the guys at the bottom 20% or so? Which adds more value, the guy hustling pure water on the street or the civil engineer who is designing an office building?

If you redistribute too much wealth from the civil engineer to the pure water salesman, the civil engineer isn't going to be working as hard. What incentive will he have to go to work if most of his wealth will be taken away from him and redistributed?


And where has this been implemented successfully? What does it look like?


There is always this tradeoff in life. More distribution => slower growth. There is no real way to get around it. See the above example I gave with the civil engineer.


I said top 5% or 10%, not the top .1% or so that represents thieving elites. So the guy that has his own construction firm that builds housing estates and employs many people is not making his money in a way that contributes to the economy?


Fine, so oil is 30% of Nigeria's GDP. What of the remaining 70%? This is the mentaility that has weakened Nigeria over the past 40 years (which unfortunately I was guilty of too). . . thinking that all of the country is this 30% chunk and neglecting the 70%.


So much wrong with this, I dunno where to begin. In essence, if you remove profit, then nobody will have an incentive to get anything done. The day that the gov't starts setting the price of yam and other foodstuffs is the day that Nigerians will be starving to death due to scarcity.

Rgp92:
Too much Capitalism is bad, so is too much communism. How about a mixture of both Socialism?

ojesymsym:



If america and britain was practicing communism, de wud have packaged it in a fine wrapper that capitalism would have seem from the deepest pits of hell. I do not think we have to copy and paste in everything, our cultures are different so we shd b able to do ours d way it suits us.

IG:

Seconded.
I think that is what China is experimenting and they seem to be succeeding. People are allowed to get rewarded for their hardwork but the society doesn't ignore those that fail to make it. My problem with capitalism is it's soullessness. It treats poverty as the fault of the poor.