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Benin-ife Relationship Explored - Culture (15) - Nairaland

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Reasons The Benin Ife Relationship Was A Lie Told By Royal Elite / The name benin and her origin Benin-ife Conspiracy / The Benin- Ife Myth Shouldn't Be Circulated Again Ever Again (2) (3) (4)

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Re: Benin-ife Relationship Explored by Ologbo147: 4:16pm On Feb 10, 2023
AutomaticMotors:
Boss I just came across this video of Adviser nowamagbe performing in Agbor, I know Agbor people are Ediod but do they understand Benin dialect? because this their enjoyment and rocking to his Benin songs really shows this people are deep into His/Edo music.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iKdYNfPDlno

AreaFada2
Agbor people are not Edoid, although they are partly in culture, they have about twenty clans that are Igboid, then they have Alilehan/Alisor who are Bi-linguals in both Ika and Oza. Oza is a dialect of the Edo language and shares high intelligibility rate with her.

They also have Oza-nogogo who speaks Oza solely, they have about six quarters, it is by far larger than Alilehan/Alisor.

So any of these three clans can opt for Nowamagbe as their dialect shares high intelligibility rate with the Binis
Re: Benin-ife Relationship Explored by AutomaticMotors: 4:26pm On Feb 10, 2023
Ologbo147:
Agbor people are not Edoid, although they are partly in culture, they have about twenty clans that are Igboid, then they have Alilehan/Alisor who are Bi-linguals in both Ika and Oza. Oza is a dialect of the Edo language and shares high intelligibility rate with her.

They also have Oza-nogogo who speaks Oza solely, they have about six quarters, it is by far larger than Alilehan/Alisor.

So any of these three clans can opt for Nowamagbe as their dialect shares high intelligibility rate with the Binis

Oza nogogo speak pure Benin dialect !!

I am talking about Agbor
Re: Benin-ife Relationship Explored by AreaFada2: 5:00pm On Feb 10, 2023
AutomaticMotors:
Boss I just came across this video of Adviser nowamagbe performing in Agbor, I know Agbor people are Ediod but do they understand Benin dialect? because this their enjoyment and rocking to his Benin songs really shows this people are deep into His/Edo music.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iKdYNfPDlno

AreaFada2
Well, in this era, one must let people identify themselves as they want.

I have met people. Let me call them Dr Omoregbe, Dr Aigbe, Mrs Osifo and being away from home, you naturally gravitate to ask if they are Edo. And then you hear them say they are from Agbor/Delta.

Well, those surnames couldn't just have appeared by coincidence. There are clearly Edoid people among them. Remember what Ajayi Crowder wrote when he was in Asaba. That they were Edo people but increasingly diluted by Igbo from across the Niger?
Is such totally unimaginable about Agbor? Zik of Africa's book also gave some insights.

Having said that, music is a universal language. The celebrants may well have been born and bred in Benin or partly Benin. I can't count how many Agbor people I knew in Benin that lived all their life in Benin. In fact, back in the day in diaspora, we were simply Bendelites. Anioma people felt closer to me than Igbo across the Niger. That was how we related. I could not really relate to Edo and Delta dichotomy for a long time, because it wasn't a reality I lived. But we are used to it now.

Like I always say, we will all continue to diverge. A point may come when if Ozanogogo find their bread better buttered elsewhere, they might claim not to be Edo anymore.
Re: Benin-ife Relationship Explored by AutomaticMotors: 5:13pm On Feb 10, 2023
AreaFada2:

Well, in this era, one must let people identify themselves as they want.

I have met people. Let me call them Dr Omoregbe, Dr Aigbe, Mrs Osifo and being away from home, you naturally gravitate to ask if they are Edo. And then you hear them say they are from Agbor/Delta.

Well, those surnames couldn't just have appeared by coincidence. There are clearly Edoid people among them. Remember what Ajayi Crowder wrote when he was in Asaba. That they were Edo people but increasingly diluted by Igbo from across the Niger?
Is such totally unimaginable about Agbor? Zik of Africa's book also gave some insights.

Having said that, music is a universal language. The celebrants may well have been born and bred in Benin or partly Benin. I can't count how many Agbor people I knew in Benin that lived all their life in Benin. In fact, back in the day in diaspora, we were simply Bendelites. Anioma people felt closer to me than Igbo across the Niger. That was how we related. I could not really relate to Edo and Delta dichotomy for a long time, because it wasn't a reality I lived. But we are used to it now.

Like I always say, we will all continue to diverge. A point may come when if Ozanogogo find their bread better buttered elsewhere, they might claim not to be Edo anymore.
Lol.. it can happen, Nigeria is a funny place
Re: Benin-ife Relationship Explored by samuk: 5:47pm On Feb 10, 2023
AutomaticMotors:

Lol.. it can happen, Nigeria is a funny place


Someone is already telling us that oba of Benin is from Ife because of lack of understanding of how evolution works. Don't be surprised when people hardly speak Benin inside Benin city 50 years from now, the future Oba and traditional institution will have to find a way like they always do to adapt and remain relevant.

Change is constantly taking place. Benin already lost most of her people in eastern yoruba and Lagos to yoruba and those in Ika land to Ibo.

Inside Benin itself there are first generation Benin born Igbo youths that speak Benin better than some Benin prince and Princesses.

In the last thirty years alone Benin traditions have changed so much that future generations of Benin who are not very well informed on Benin history will think Benin was invaded and conquered at this period of her history.

Burial ceremony is now three days (possibly for religious (Christian) reasons and costs) instead of the seven/fourteen days depending on the personality involved. Several aspects of it has also be replaced with service of songs. Traditions such as Isoton, Izakue, isuerha-fua and E'ruan are all gone in the general population except in the palace.

The diaspora celebrates Igue festival more than our people in Benin city. Most of our people no longer worship in the traditional way.

As usual the palace have find a way to incorporate the dominant Christian religion into its activities in a controlled way through Holy Arosa which the Oba heads. This is what makes the Benin traditional institution unique and why they are still here after centuries of existence. They keep evolving.
Re: Benin-ife Relationship Explored by AreaFada2: 6:30pm On Feb 10, 2023
samuk:


In the last thirty years alone Benin traditions have changed so much that future generations of Benin who are not very well informed on Benin history will think Benin was invaded and conquered at this period of her history.

Burial ceremony is now three days (possibly for religious (Christian) reasons and costs) instead of the seven/fourteen days depending on the personality involved. Several aspects of it has also be replaced with service of songs. Traditions such as Isoton, Izakue, isuerha-fua and E'ruan are all gone in the general population except in the palace.

The diaspora celebrates Igue festival more than our people in Benin city. Most of our people no longer worship in the traditional way.

As usual the palace have find a way to incorporate the dominant Christian religion into its activities in a controlled way through Holy Arosa which the Oba heads. This is what makes the Benin traditional institution unique and why they are still here after centuries of existence. They keep evolving.

Absolutely. When in 9ja, I feel totally out of touch. Like an ancestor resurrected from 100 years back.
Those who do not understand history of Christianity want to be more Christian than the Pope.

At the bolded, burials in my clan is slightly different from general Benin pattern of burial. I guess Ogbe people would be able to relate if they witnessed it. The committal to mother earth is a much more elaborate process. Still, aspects like Isoton, Izakhue and others come in fully too. But I was flabbergasted by how much of the general stuff have been left out. They made one look like one archaic person like that. That is what they think modernity means: to totally jettison one's culture in favour of another race's culture. Yes, culture evolves. If our ancestors went about evolution the way people doing now, Lamogun, Laidu, Lavbieze and other salutations would be gone. Now they say Laijesu.

Soon you will be hearing LaBuddha, LaShinto, LaConfucius, LaShiva, LaKrishna and La anything foreign. I can't put it past our people these days. grin grin cheesy cheesy


Well, to me, I don't think it's too much for parents to expect the rites they performed for their own parents to be done for them when they bow out one day. If you are not lucky to be the senior child, others will largely decide the burial plans and nothing much you can do.

With burials, family/Egbe are now focussing too much on how much food/drink/rice/money they can get in the shortest possible time than performing all the rites for the departed. Too bad.
Re: Benin-ife Relationship Explored by samuk: 6:46pm On Feb 10, 2023
AreaFada2:

Absolutely. When in 9ja, I feel totally out of touch. Like an ancestor resurrected from 100 years back.
Those who do not understand history of Christianity want to be more Christian than the Pope.

At the bolded, burials in my clan is slightly different from general Benin pattern of burial. I guess Ogbe people would be able to relate if they witnessed it. The committal to mother earth is a much more elaborate process. Still, aspects like Isoton, Izakhue and others come in fully too. But I was flabbergasted by how much of the general stuff have been left out. They made one look like one archaic person like that. That is what they think modernity means: to totally jettison one's culture in favour of another race's culture. Yes, culture evolves. If our ancestors went about evolution the way people doing now, Lamogun, Laidu, Lavbieze and other salutations would be gone. Now they say Laijesu.

Soon you will be hearing LaBuddha, LaShinto, LaConfucius, LaShiva, LaKrishna and La anything foreign. I can't put it past our people these days. grin grin cheesy cheesy


Well, to me, I don't think it's too much for parents to expect the rites they performed for their own parents to be done for them when they bow out one day. If you are not lucky to be the senior child, others will largely decide the burial plans and nothing much you can do.

With burials, family/Egbe are now focussing too much on how much food/drink/rice/money they can get in the shortest possible time than performing all the rites for the departed. Too bad.

It's terrible. Edo in diaspora are more intune with the Edo culture more than those we left behind.
Re: Benin-ife Relationship Explored by Ologbo147: 7:20pm On Feb 10, 2023
AreaFada2:

Absolutely. When in 9ja, I feel totally out of touch. Like an ancestor resurrected from 100 years back.
Those who do not understand history of Christianity want to be more Christian than the Pope.

At the bolded, burials in my clan is slightly different from general Benin pattern of burial. I guess Ogbe people would be able to relate if they witnessed it. The committal to mother earth is a much more elaborate process. Still, aspects like Isoton, Izakhue and others come in fully too. But I was flabbergasted by how much of the general stuff have been left out. They made one look like one archaic person like that. That is what they think modernity means: to totally jettison one's culture in favour of another race's culture. Yes, culture evolves. If our ancestors went about evolution the way people doing now, Lamogun, Laidu, Lavbieze and other salutations would be gone. Now they say Laijesu.

Soon you will be hearing LaBuddha, LaShinto, LaConfucius, LaShiva, LaKrishna and La anything foreign. I can't put it past our people these days. grin grin cheesy cheesy


Well, to me, I don't think it's too much for parents to expect the rites they performed for their own parents to be done for them when they bow out one day. If you are not lucky to be the senior child, others will largely decide the burial plans and nothing much you can do.

With burials, family/Egbe are now focussing too much on how much food/drink/rice/money they can get in the shortest possible time than performing all the rites for the departed. Too bad.
Sir what is your clan? Are you an Edo man from Ondo state? What are the Bini communities in Ondo state? I have been willing to learn about them. How much of intelligibility do they have with central Bini?
Re: Benin-ife Relationship Explored by AutomaticMotors: 7:40pm On Feb 10, 2023
samuk:


Someone is already telling us that oba of Benin is from Ife because of lack of understanding of how evolution works. Don't be surprised when people hardly speak Benin inside Benin city 50 years from now, the future Oba and traditional institution will have to find a way like they always do to adapt and remain relevant.

Change is constantly taking place. Benin already lost most of her people in eastern yoruba and Lagos to yoruba and those in Ika land to Ibo.

Inside Benin itself there are first generation Benin born Igbo youths that speak Benin better than some Benin prince and Princesses.

In the last thirty years alone Benin traditions have changed so much that future generations of Benin who are not very well informed on Benin history will think Benin was invaded and conquered at this period of her history.

Burial ceremony is now three days (possibly for religious (Christian) reasons and costs) instead of the seven/fourteen days depending on the personality involved. Several aspects of it has also be replaced with service of songs. Traditions such as Isoton, Izakue, isuerha-fua and E'ruan are all gone in the general population except in the palace.

The diaspora celebrates Igue festival more than our people in Benin city. Most of our people no longer worship in the traditional way.

As usual the palace have find a way to incorporate the dominant Christian religion into its activities in a controlled way through Holy Arosa which the Oba heads. This is what makes the Benin traditional institution unique and why they are still here after centuries of existence. They keep evolving.


You see that igue, 70% of Benin residents are guilty of it
Re: Benin-ife Relationship Explored by UGBE634: 2:50pm On Feb 11, 2023
RedboneSmith:


Can I ask you a small question? I was recently speaking with a man from Umoghun n'Okhua, and he said their greeting is Lamogun. I was under the impression that this greeting was exclusive to the Oba's family in Benin.

Are their non-Ọba lineages, especially in Iyekorhionmwon that use Lamogun?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VZQZl-yyNqE

This is what this man had to say about it, that is the Esogban of Benin, the second most important chief in Benin after the Iyase, also he is currently 93 years old. Hear what he has to say about it. Timestamp 4:50-5:23


Building on that, there are 3 lineages that greet Lamogun in Benin. They seem to be break away lineages from that of the Oba of Benin. The answer to the greeting itself suggest so. The answer usually follows like this, Ovbi'Umogun'Oza, Ovbio-Oba dudu' Ovbia-Noyeama, Ovbia-nanioboda etc these are usually praises of the family when someone salute Lamogun

Even Izoduwa did not know he was from the Oba's family. He had done the history of his community and family before he found out that his family are not originally from the community he is from in Orhiowmon, but that they migrated down from Evbiewmen in Benin.

Now Evbiewmen is a quarter where Oba's other children are sent to reside when the first son is crowned. And maybe one or two other sons have been sent to man other communities. The rest are usually sent to Evbiewmen.

They are the Oba of Benin's family
Enogie of Ehor's family
Enogie of Ugboko Evbomode

lineage greeting 2

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gpv5ykqlyGw
It is the second greeting there

Lineage greeting 5

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BOBY3QxokR0

Lineage greeting 64 and 71, you will find the Enogie of Ehor and Enogie Ugboko Evbomode.

Now that there are families that are from the Oba's family but do not greet Lamogun is not in doubt. E.g lauhe etc but that there are families not related to the Oba that greet Lamogun alongside with the Oba is highly unlikely. Although According to Chief Osewmengie Ero, the Oba bought it from Igun street, but that any family alongside not related to the Oba's family will greet Lamogun wherever the person might even be in Benin Kingdom is unlikely going by what chief Esogban said in Timestamp 4:50-5:23.

And also alluding to the response giving to such person given to the person who salute Lamogun, it is exclusively the Oba's ego's response that is given

It is possible to greet Lamogun and not know you are related to the Oba's family (you might just explain it away with oh, maybe we are one of the descendants of Igun street people)until you decide to do your research and see that you are a migrant family from the community you are from and that you are related to the Oba

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Re: Benin-ife Relationship Explored by AreaFada2: 3:46pm On Feb 11, 2023
RedboneSmith:


Can I ask you a small question? I was recently speaking with a man from Umoghun n'Okhua, and he said their greeting is Lamogun. I was under the impression that this greeting was exclusive to the Oba's family in Benin.

Are their non-Ọba lineages, especially in Iyekorhionmwon that use Lamogun?


All Lamogun greeters descended from an Oba at one point or the other. Since Oba Eweka 1. One reason you see them across all of Edo South and beyond is that some may have been descendants of dukes sent to rule various parts of Edo land. Most dukes were princes and in the past few hundred years, exclusively princes. However, for some, their connection may lie too far in the past to know their exact royal ancestor but most will know which Oba they descended from.

There is no provision to give up Lamogun just because you were royally related too long ago. You keep your salutation in perpetuity unless female and married. You then follow your hubby's own.

Morning salutation or lineage is something every Benin person is proud of and won't relinquish it for any another salutation unless married females.

Some ancient dukes were not paternally related to Ogiso or Oba dynasty or were notable warriors or otherwise performed great deeds for the kingdom and may therefore have own unique lineage greeting granted them.

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Re: Benin-ife Relationship Explored by UGBE634: 3:58pm On Feb 11, 2023
AreaFada2:



All Lamogun greeters descended from an Oba at one point or the other. Since Oba Eweka 1. One reason you see them across all of Edo South and beyond is that some may have been descendants of dukes sent to rule various parts of Edo land. Most dukes were princes and in the past few hundred years, exclusively princes. However, for some, their connection may lie too far in the past to know their exact royal ancestor but most will know which Oba they descended from.

There is no provision to give up Lamogun just because you were royally related too long ago. You keep your salutation in perpetuity unless female and married. You then follow your hubby's own.

Morning salutation or lineage is something every Benin person is proud of and won't relinquish it for any another salutation unless married females.

Some ancient dukes were not paternally related to Ogiso or Oba dynasty or were notable warriors or otherwise performed great deeds for the kingdom and may therefore have own unique lineage greeting granted them.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VZQZl-yyNqE

Timestamp 12:00
Lamogun according to Chief Edobayakhae was not the salutation of the Oba's family from the beginning,it was on that basis I made that comment
Chief Edobayakhae disagrees with you, according to him, it seems it was Oba Ewuare that bought it from Igun street, I would want to hold on to the fact that the descendants of the Oba's before Ewuare would or might still hold on to their La-ooni salutation, except a pronouncement was made that all Oba's descendants ( from Eweka 1 down)should start saluting Lamogun, or what Chief Edobayakhae said is not true, which is not the case here, I have seen a video of Imasuen corroborating what chief Edobayakhae said

Redbonesmith

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Re: Benin-ife Relationship Explored by samuk: 5:15pm On Feb 11, 2023
UGBE634:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VZQZl-yyNqE

Timestamp 12:00
Lamogun according to Chief Edobayakhae was not the salutation of the Oba's family from the beginning,it was on that basis I made that comment
Chief Edobayakhae disagrees with you, according to him, it seems it was Oba Ewuare that bought it from Igun street, I[b] would want to hold on to the fact that the descendants of the Oba's before Ewuare would or might still hold on to their La-ooni salutation,[/b] except a pronouncement was made that all Oba's descendants ( from Eweka 1 down)should start saluting Lamogun, or what Chief Edobayakhae said is not true, which is not the case here, I have seen a video of Imasuen corroborating what chief Edobayakhae said

Redbonesmith

All Oba before Ewuare 1 greeted Laiso not La Ooni, I know this because I am a descendant of Oba Ohen. My ancestor was a sibling of Oba Ewuare 1 and this fact is clearly reflected in our morning salutation, infact it's the reply we get when we greet an elder. This is one of the reasons why Benin history is difficult to forge. There are too many references to disprove such forgery. La ooni must have been sneaked in to support the Benin Ife connection.

If the royal greeting before Oba Ewuare 1 was La Ooni, then my family would have still be greeting La Ooni but that is not the case. After Oba Ewuare 1 bought Lamogun from Igun Street, all subsequent Oba and their descendants carried on with Lamogun while those descendants of Oba before Ewuare 1 stuck with Laiso, at this point the current family reply was added to the greeting to maintain the family link with Oba Ewuare 1. Those that greet or familiar with Laiso know the reply.

When the current Oba Ewuare 2 was at Uselu going through the Edaiken rituals to become Oba, he requested a chief that represented one of the Laiso families to recount the history of the family before other chiefs, the chief did and Oba agreed that the chief was correct. I got this as a first hand information. I am close to the palace enough to know which of this history is real and those that are political.

There are several branches of Laiso families but all go back to the same ancestor. This is why I advocate for Benin people to do research into their own family history.

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Re: Benin-ife Relationship Explored by AreaFada2: 5:17pm On Feb 11, 2023
Ologbo147:
Sir what is your clan? Are you an Edo man from Ondo state? What are the Bini communities in Ondo state? I have been willing to learn about them. How much of intelligibility do they have with central Bini?
My brother, saying more than I have already said would be like posting my pic and full name. cheesy grin

There are some who know me. But they don't know that I know they know me. I have had some funny responses related to my posts from some people in real life. grin cheesy

Well, I have mentioned before that Benin is a diverse place. I also mentioned that Usen and Utese are not the only so-called "Yoruboid" places. For good reasons,
Some of us are living products of Benin Empire.

In times past, if Benin gained a new territory, through conquest, previously migrated descendants seeking closer ties, and so on, Oba would send ambassadors, a new ruler or some other representative as adequate. If it was conquest, and the ruler killed, the crown prince, especially if only a boy, may be sent to Oba Palace for training. In reality that means indoctrination and
Beninization. There may be Oba rep/ambassador and local chiefs managing that land in the meantime.

If the prince turns out to be a fine young man, fully Beninized, he might bag himself a princess, Oba's daughter, daughter of Oba's brother/sister or daughter of a high ranking Benin nobleman.

He returns to his throne with a Benin princess as his queen. The next generation there might have Benin grandad who may even have been Oba of Benin or still even reigning.

Now the royal ambassador/prince may have had kids in the territory too. If the ambassador was a prince, his kids might return to Benin 50 years later. Where will they go? To the palace. It doesn't matter which Oba is in power by then, the Oba will want to settle his royal relatives because history of their move to the colony is well known.

One way to settle them is to be made a duke somewhere in Benin area, especially if they have returned in dozens or more. Perhaps with wives, in-laws and servants of that other tribe of the colony.

Now, the Beniness and royalty of the returnee is not in doubt, but they have also picked up the other culture (or wives/followers of non-Benin culture) to enrich the already rich Benin culture in their new settlement. They also used their dual culture and privilege in ancient times to trade easily between Benin and swathes of Yorubaland as they could use their links with royal families on both sides.

This is the closest analogy I can give.

If you "waka" enough within Edo, you will be surprised. My visits to Orhionmwon villages as a kid made me to see what I would have not thought was part of Benin culture looking at it from Benin-City.

I have met countless people in Eastern Yorubaland who say their great grandmother or great great grandfather came from Benin but they don't know the compound anymore. Entire towns claim Benin origin. But they don't speak Benin. Though their dialects and culture obviously reflect Benin influence.

Part of Idoani and Ekue-Uhuen are considered Edoid in Ondo State.

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Re: Benin-ife Relationship Explored by samuk: 5:33pm On Feb 11, 2023
AreaFada2:

My brother, saying more than I have already said would be like posting my pic and full name. cheesy grin

There are some who know me. But they don't know that I know they know me. I have had some funny responses related to my posts from some people in real life. grin cheesy

Well, I have mentioned before that Benin is a diverse place. I also mentioned that Usen and Utese are not the only so-called "Yoruboid" places. For good reasons,
Some of us are living products of Benin Empire.

In times past, if Benin gained a new territory, through conquest, migrated descendant seeking closer ties, and so on, Oba would send ambassadors, a new ruler or some other representative as adequate. If it was conquest, and the ruler killed, the crown prince, especially if only a boy, may be sent to Oba Palace for training. In reality that means indoctrination and
Beninization. There may be Oba rep/ambassador and local chiefs managing that land in the meantime.

If the prince turns out to be a fine young man, fully Beninized, he might bag himself a princess, Oba's daughter, daughter of Oba's brother/sister or daughter of a high ranking Benin nobleman.

He returns to his throne with a Benin princess as his queen. The next generation there might have Benin grandad who may even have been Oba of Benin or still even reigning.

Now the royal ambassador/prince may have had kids in the territory too. If the ambassador was a prince, his kids might return to Benin 50 years later. Where will they go? To the palace. It doesn't matter which Oba is in power by then, the Oba will want to settle his royal relatives because history of their move to the colony is well known.

One way to settle them is to be made a duke somewhere in Benin area, especially if they have returned in dozens or more. Perhaps with wives, in-laws and servants of that other tribe of the colony.

Now, the Beniness and royalty of the returnee is not in doubt, but they have also picked up the other culture (or wives/followers of non-Benin culture) to enrich the already rich Benin culture in their new settlement. They also used their dual culture and privilege in ancient times to trade easily between Benin and swathes of Yorubaland as they could use their links with royal families on both sides.

This is the closest analogy I can give.

If you "waka" enough within Edo, you will be surprised. My visits to Orhionmwon villages as a kid made me to see what I would have not thought was part of Benin culture looking at it from Benin-City.

I have met countless people in Eastern Yorubaland who say their great grandmother or great great grandfather came from Benin but they don't know the compound anymore. Entire towns claim Benin origin. But they don't speak Benin. Though their dialects and culture obviously reflect Benin influence.

Part of Idoani and Ekue-Uhuen are considered Edoid in Ondo State.

As I read your reply, history of the famous Lagos Street in Benin City, including history of the mosque at the beginning of the Street by Ring Road came to mind.
Re: Benin-ife Relationship Explored by AreaFada2: 5:54pm On Feb 11, 2023
samuk:


As I read your reply, history of the famous Lagos Street in Benin City, including history of the mosque at the beginning of Street by Ring Road came to mind.
Toh! I have written about Eleko Kosoko's son who returned to Benin after Kosoko was in exile in Epe in other threads on NL in the past.

The land of the mosque at Lagos street was a gift from the Oba.

They still invite Oba of Benin to key events.

Oba Erediuwa was named Solomon because of that Mosque.

In 1923, Oba Eweka II was invited to one such event. Oba sent the the Crown prince who became Oba Akenzua later. His son was only a few days old. In trying to convert the Crown Prince, the Imam gave him Suleiman as his name.

The Prince could not accept but reiterated that his new baby boy would be called Solomon, a Christian equivalent and same wise king Solomon in the Bible. Because he said he had a Bible and had read the story but didn't know about exact story of Suleiman in the Quran.

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Re: Benin-ife Relationship Explored by UGBE634: 6:46pm On Feb 11, 2023
samuk:


All Oba before Ewuare 1 greeted Laiso not La Ooni, I know this because I am a descendant of Oba Ohen. My ancestor was a sibling of Oba Ewuare 1 and this fact is clearly reflected in our morning salutation, infact it's the reply we get when we greet an elder. This is one of the reasons why Benin history is difficult to forge. There are too many references to disprove such forgery. La ooni must have been sneaked in to support the Benin Ife connection.

If the royal greeting before Oba Ewuare 1 was La Ooni, then my family would have still be greeting La Ooni but that is not the case. After Oba Ewuare 1 bought Lamogun from Igun Street, all subsequent Oba and their descendants carried on with Lamogun while those descendants of Oba before Ewuare 1 stuck with Laiso, at this point the current family reply was added to the greeting to maintain the family link with Oba Ewuare 1. Those that greet or familiar with Laiso know the reply.

When the current Oba Ewuare 2 was at Uselu going through the Edaiken rituals to become Oba, he requested a chief that represented one of the Laiso families to recount the history of the family before other chiefs, the chief did and Oba agreed that the chief was correct. I got this as a first hand information. I am closer to the palace enough to know which of this history is real and those that are political.

There are several branches of Laiso families but all go back to the same ancestor. This is why I advocate for Benin people to do research into their own family history.

Lineage greeting 5

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BOBY3QxokR0

Lineage greeting 4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5LCaxmPdxQU

My brother there are seventy four lineages in Benin.

In that seventy four, there are five lineages that greet Delaiso or La-Iso

They are

Ohen Iso vbuwe sokponba
Enogie of Aho
Enogie of Ute
Enogie Iduwmungha
Ogiso dynasty

These are the five lineages that greet Delaiso or La-Iso in Benin.

Nowhere was it stated that any of the Oba's before Ewuare salute Delaiso. I presume your family is the first one, I would Ohen is a priest, Infact the literal translation of Ohen Iso vbuwe sokponba is The priest of the sky god that is located in Sokponba road. You must have mistaken it for Oba Ohen. I don't think your lineage is that insignificant for it not to be added there, or if all Oba's children from Oba Eweka 1 to Oba Ohen greet Delaiso it would have been added and stated there. Yours seem to be a new addition, I just heard this for the first time , it even contradicts your brothers comments, I have been in this city for over two score and half years, I just heard of it for the first time from you that some of the Oba's family greet Delaiso. Worst still, it is not even stated there.



Also according to the lineage greeting, it is stated that all Oba's dynasty from Oba Eweka 1 down to the present Oba all greet Lamogun.



So I might conclude on two things, that the Oba's family has saluted Lamogun from the very beginning as stated by your brother or as it was changed to Lamogun, a proclamation was made that all Oba's descendants from the first one would greet Lamogun.

Also I just checked, the correct pronunciation should be La-ini not La-oni as pronounced by chief Edobayakhae and the present family that greet Laini is the Ine'nigun. I seem to see a connection here.

Also whether they are all related, does not seem to be the meat of my argument, I would not want to talk on that

2 Likes

Re: Benin-ife Relationship Explored by samuk: 7:12pm On Feb 11, 2023
UGBE634:


Lineage greeting 5

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BOBY3QxokR0

Lineage greeting 4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5LCaxmPdxQU

My brother there are seventy four lineages in Benin.

In that seventy four, there are five lineages that greet Delaiso or La-Iso

They are

Ohen Iso vbuwe sokponba
Enogie of Aho
Enogie of Ute
Enogie Iduwmungha
Ogiso dynasty

These are the five lineages that greet Delaiso or La-Iso in Benin.

Nowhere was it stated that any of the Oba's before Ewuare salute Delaiso. I presume your family is the first one, I would Ohen is a priest, Infact the literal translation of Ohen Iso vbuwe sokponba is The priest of the sky god that is located in Sokponba road. You must have mistaken it for Oba Ohen. I don't think your lineage is that insignificant for it not to be added there, or if all Oba's children from Oba Eweka 1 to Oba Ohen greet Delaiso it would have been added and stated there. Yours seem to be a new addition, I just heard this for the first time , it even contradicts your brothers comments, I have been in this city for over two score and half years, I just heard of it for the first time from you that some of the Oba's family greet Delaiso



Also according to the lineage greeting, it is stated that all Oba's dynasty from Oba Eweka 1 down to the present Oba all greet Lamogun.



So I might conclude on two things, that the Oba's family has saluted Lamogun from the very beginning as stated by your brother or as it was changed to Lamogun, a proclamation was made that all Oba's descendants from the first one would greet Lamogun.

Also I just checked, the correct pronunciation should be La-ini not La-oni as pronounced by chief Edobayakhae and the present family that greet Laini is the Ine'nigun. I seem to see a connection here.

Also whether they are all related, does not seem to be the meat of my argument, I would not want to talk on that





Please go backand reread what I wrote, this time slowly.

1. I Told you about the reply to my family greeting which clearly states that my ancestor is a sibling of Ewuare 1, all you needed to have done is to find any Benin person around to confirm since it's clear you are not aware. All family in Benin have their praises that stands them out, if you are Benin as you claimed, you should have a family greeting and associated praise that stands your family out.

Benin family greetings and their associated praises are not for academic debate, except for those that reads fairytale in books.

2. I also stated that the current Oba asked one of his current chiefs to give the history of my family at Uselu while he was going through the Edaiken rituals.

3. I never said Delaiso.

4. With reference to contradicting my brother, we are presenting the Benin history based on our research. No one person is an expert in Benin history, there are several areas yet untouched.

Stop rushing to reply to post, you or anyone else are not in position to lecture me on my family history.

If you must reply, I have a simple question for you.

Question:

1. What is the reply to Laiso and it's translation in English language.

1 Like

Re: Benin-ife Relationship Explored by UGBE634: 7:23pm On Feb 11, 2023
samuk:


Please go backand reread what I wrote, this time slowly.

1. I Told you about the reply to my family greeting which clearly states that my ancestor is a sibling of Ewuare 1, all you needed to have done is to find any Benin person around to confirm since it's clear you are not aware. All family in Benin have their praises that stands them out, if you are Benin as you claimed, you should have a family greeting and associated praise that stands your family out.

Benin family greetings and their associated praises are not for academic debate, except for those that reads fairytale in books.

2. I also stated that the current Oba asked one of his current chiefs to give the history of my family at Uselu while he was going through the Edaiken rituals.

3. I never said Delaiso.

4. With reference to contradicting my brother, we are presenting the Benin history based on our research. No one person is an expert in Benin history, there several areas yet untouched.

Stop rushing to reply to post, you or anyone else are not in position to lecture me on my family history.

If you must reply, I have a simple question for you.

Question:

1. What is the reply to Laiso and it's translation in English language.
I am sorry, it is what is stated there, it is not what I have known and it is not what I will accept online, I am sorry. I believe it would have been stated there if Oba Eweka 1 to Oba Ohen had a different salutation. Once again, I am sorry. La-Iso is a short form of Delaiso for all the five lineages there. You can check the family greeting twenty seven to thirty and also the first family, those are the only families that greet Delaiso or La-Iso, you can switch it whichever way, it is the same thing

1 Like

Re: Benin-ife Relationship Explored by RedboneSmith(m): 7:28pm On Feb 11, 2023
UGBE634:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VZQZl-yyNqE

This is what this man had to say about it, that is the Esogban of Benin, the second most important chief in Benin after the Iyase, also he is currently 93 years old. Hear what he has to say about it. Timestamp 4:50-5:23


Building on that, there are 3 lineages that greet Lamogun in Benin. They seem to be break away lineages from that of the Oba of Benin. The answer to the greeting itself suggest so. The answer usually follows like this, Ovbi'Umogun'Oza, Ovbio-Oba dudu' Ovbia-Noyeama, Ovbia-nanioboda etc these are usually praises of the family when someone salute Lamogun

Even Izoduwa did not know he was from the Oba's family. He had done the history of his community and family before he found out that his family are not originally from the community he is from in Orhiowmon, but that they migrated down from Evbiewmen in Benin.

Now Evbiewmen is a quarter where Oba's other children are sent to reside when the first son is crowned. And maybe one or two other sons have been sent to man other communities. The rest are usually sent to Evbiewmen.

They are the Oba of Benin's family
Enogie of Ehor's family
Enogie of Ugboko Evbomode

lineage greeting 2

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gpv5ykqlyGw
It is the second greeting there

Lineage greeting 5

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BOBY3QxokR0

Lineage greeting 64 and 71, you will find the Enogie of Ehor and Enogie Ugboko Evbomode.

Now that there are families that are from the Oba's family but do not greet Lamogun is not in doubt. E.g lauhe etc but that there are families not related to the Oba that greet Lamogun alongside with the Oba is highly unlikely. Although According to Chief Osewmengie Ero, the Oba bought it from Igun street, but that any family alongside not related to the Oba's family will greet Lamogun wherever the person might even be in Benin Kingdom is unlikely going by what chief Esogban said in Timestamp 4:50-5:23.

And also alluding to the response giving to such person given to the person who salute Lamogun, it is exclusively the Oba's ego's response that is given

It is possible to greet Lamogun and not know you are related to the Oba's family (you might just explain it away with oh, maybe we are one of the descendants of Igun street people)until you decide to do your research and see that you are a migrant family from the community you are from and that you are related to the Oba




That was helpful. Thanks.
Re: Benin-ife Relationship Explored by UGBE634: 7:31pm On Feb 11, 2023
RedboneSmith:




That was helpful. Thanks.
You are welcome man
Re: Benin-ife Relationship Explored by RedboneSmith(m): 7:31pm On Feb 11, 2023
AreaFada2:



All Lamogun greeters descended from an Oba at one point or the other. Since Oba Eweka 1. One reason you see them across all of Edo South and beyond is that some may have been descendants of dukes sent to rule various parts of Edo land. Most dukes were princes and in the past few hundred years, exclusively princes. However, for some, their connection may lie too far in the past to know their exact royal ancestor but most will know which Oba they descended from.

There is no provision to give up Lamogun just because you were royally related too long ago. You keep your salutation in perpetuity unless female and married. You then follow your hubby's own.

Morning salutation or lineage is something every Benin person is proud of and won't relinquish it for any another salutation unless married females.

Some ancient dukes were not paternally related to Ogiso or Oba dynasty or were notable warriors or otherwise performed great deeds for the kingdom and may therefore have own unique lineage greeting granted them.

Ah. I see. Thanks.
Re: Benin-ife Relationship Explored by samuk: 7:32pm On Feb 11, 2023
UGBE634:
I am sorry, it is what is stated there, it is not what I have known and it is not what I will accept online, I am sorry. I believe it would have been stated there if Oba Eweka 1 to Oba Ohen had a different salutation. Once again, I am sorry. La-Iso is a short form of Delaiso for all the five lineages there.

Apologies accepted. We must be ready to learn from each others and have cause to disagree with each others with superior evidence if we must advance our research into Benin history. I believe we are all still scratching the surface of Benin history.

Benin history is deep and buried in our everyday language, ancestral shrines (ukhure), festivals, arts, music, culture, traditions, etc. I have conceded to your submission in the past when I don't have enough information to counter your position.
Re: Benin-ife Relationship Explored by UGBE634: 7:37pm On Feb 11, 2023
samuk:


Apologies accepted. We must be ready to learn from each others and have cause to disagree with each others with superior evidence if we must advance our research into Benin history. I believe we are all still scratching the surface of Benin history.

Benin history is deep and buried in our everyday language, ancestral shrines (ukhure), festivals, arts, music, culture, traditions, etc. I have conceded to your submission in the past when I don't have enough information to counter your position.
There was a typo, this was what I meant

I am sorry, it is not what is stated there, it is not what I have known and it is not what I will accept online, I am sorry. I believe it would have been stated there if Oba Eweka 1 to Oba Ohen had a different salutation. Once again, I am sorry. La-Iso is a short form of Delaiso for all the five lineages there.

1 Like

Re: Benin-ife Relationship Explored by samuk: 7:39pm On Feb 11, 2023
UGBE634:
There was a typo, this was what I meant

I am sorry, it is not what is stated there, it is not what I have known and it is not what I will accept online, I am sorry. I believe it would have been stated there if Oba Eweka 1 to Oba Ohen had a different salutation. Once again, I am sorry. La-Iso is a short form of Delaiso for all the five lineages there.

There is a small difference between Delaiso and Laiso which I will not go into, but my dad insisted we stick with Laiso.
Re: Benin-ife Relationship Explored by UGBE634: 7:48pm On Feb 11, 2023
samuk:


There is a small difference between Delaiso and Laiso which I will not go into, but my dad insisted we stick with Laiso.
according to the video, they are the same thing and people usually greet La-Iso for convenience, La-Iso is like the short form as other people will usually greet And pronounce theirs La giesan instead of La-ogiesan, etc. You can check the video up, in the middle, there is the full form of the greeting for the five lineages and in the last part, it is La-Iso which people usually prefer to pronounce for convenience. You can check the first family there, and family 27 to 30
You can share what you think is the difference if you don't mind
Re: Benin-ife Relationship Explored by samuk: 7:56pm On Feb 11, 2023
UGBE634:
according to the video, they are the same thing and people usually greet La-Iso for convenience, La-Iso is like the short form as other people will usually greet And pronounce theirs La giesan instead of La-ogiesan, etc. You can check the video up, in the middle, there is the full form of the greeting for the five lineages and in the last part, it is La-Iso which people usually prefer to pronounce for convenience. You can check the first family there, and family 27 to 30
You can share what you think is the difference if you don't mind

I have seen the video. I don't think that small difference between Delaiso and Laiso is for public consumption. The teacher may not even be aware of the difference. Both Delaiso and Laiso goes back to the same lineage but I can't go further than this.
Re: Benin-ife Relationship Explored by samuk: 8:19pm On Feb 11, 2023
AreaFada2:

Toh! I have written about Eleko Kosoko's son who returned to Benin after Kosoko was in exile in Epe in other threads on NL in the past.

The land of the mosque at Lagos street was a gift from the Oba.

They still invite Oba of Benin to key events.

Oba Erediuwa was named Solomon because of that Mosque.

In 1923, Oba Eweka II was invited to one such event. Oba sent the the Crown prince who became Oba Akenzua later. His son was only a few days old. In trying to convert the Crown Prince, the Imam gave him Suleiman as his name.

The Prince could not accept but reiterated that his new baby boy would be called Solomon, a Christian equivalent and same wise king Solomon in the Bible. Because he said he had a Bible and had read the story but didn't know about exact story of Suleiman in the Quran.



The chief that welcomed Obaseki few days ago when he went to commission the street lights from Iyaro to Uniben main gate did give a brief history of Ugbo-Owo. Benin is full of history.
Re: Benin-ife Relationship Explored by samuk: 8:54pm On Feb 11, 2023
UGBE634:
according to the video, they are the same thing and people usually greet La-Iso for convenience, La-Iso is like the short form as other people will usually greet And pronounce theirs La giesan instead of La-ogiesan, etc. You can check the video up, in the middle, there is the full form of the greeting for the five lineages and in the last part, it is La-Iso which people usually prefer to pronounce for convenience. You can check the first family there, and family 27 to 30
You can share what you think is the difference if you don't mind

Also don't forget Oba Ewuare 1 was formerly known as Prince Ogun, can you see why Lamogun will appeal to him after he became Oba Ewuare.

Oba Ewuare completely revolutionised Benin and changed many things including line of successions from brothers to anointed sons, usually firstly sons/heirs, changed name of the city to Edo, deified Emotan with the promulgation that every funeral processions visit her shrine to pay respect, a tradition that lasted until recently.

He also expanded the kingdom. Oba Ewuare 1 is regarded as the greatest Oba of Benin. Hence the name Oba Ewuare the great.
Re: Benin-ife Relationship Explored by AreaFada2: 9:29pm On Feb 11, 2023
samuk:


Also don't forget Oba Ewuare 1 was formerly known as Prince Ogun, can you see why Lamogun will appeal to him after he became Oba Ewuare.

Oba Ewuare completely revolutionised Benin and changed many things including line of successions from brothers to anointed sons, usually firstly sons/heirs, changed name of the city to Edo, deified Emotan with the promulgation that every funeral processions visit her shrine to pay respect, a tradition that lasted until recently.

He also expanded the kingdom. Oba Ewuare 1 is regarded as the greatest Oba of Benin. Hence the name Oba Ewuare the great.
Very true. Ewuare, Ozolua, Esigie, Orhogbua and Ehengbuda are the five warrior kings and empire builders.
Our people in Eastern Yorubaland trace their move to these Obas. Especially Ozolua and Esigie.

But Oba Ewedo set the tone for the stability and safety at home (moats/ramparts building commencement), power consolidation and centralisation that a couple of centuries later Ewuare took to the next level.

As for Lamogun, I have had this debate that many in direct Oba dynasty line took the Lamogun greeting, even those relatives not born directly by Ewuare but related paternally. In the same way everybody became Edo after Oba Ewuare's pronouncement.

Most publications do not make a distinction in greeting between pre-Ewuare royals or his direct descendants afterwards. After Lamogun began.

Wow! Oba Ohen's fate was most tragic. With the Iyase saga.

Perhaps, with the roughly a century between Ohen and Ewuare, Ohen descendants may have decided to diverge totally.

Any family history/stories of how the tragic end affected Ohen's direct descendants in the immediate aftermath?
Re: Benin-ife Relationship Explored by samuk: 9:54pm On Feb 11, 2023
,
.
Re: Benin-ife Relationship Explored by samuk: 9:57pm On Feb 11, 2023
AreaFada2:

Very true. Ewuare, Ozolua, Esigie, Orhogbua and Ehengbuda are the five warrior kings and empire builders.
Our people in Eastern Yorubaland trace their move to these Obas. Especially Ozolua and Esigie.

But Oba Ewedo set the tone for the stability and safety at home (moats/ramparts building commencement), power consolidation and centralisation that a couple of centuries later Ewuare took to the next level.

As for Lamogun, I have had this debate that many in direct Oba dynasty line took the Lamogun greeting, even relatives those relatives born directly by Ewuare. In the same way everybody became Edo after Oba Ewuare's pronouncement.

Most publications do not make a distinction in greeting between pre-Ewuare royals or his direct descendants afterwards. After Lamogun began.

Wow! Oba Ohen's fate was most tragic. With the Iyase saga.

Perhaps, with the roughly a century between Ohen and Ewuare, Ohen descendants may have decided to diverge totally.

Any family history/stories of how the tragic end affected Ohen's direct descendants in the immediate aftermath?


I have no information.

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