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Benin-ife Relationship Explored - Culture - Nairaland

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Reasons The Benin Ife Relationship Was A Lie Told By Royal Elite / The name benin and her origin Benin-ife Conspiracy / The Benin- Ife Myth Shouldn't Be Circulated Again Ever Again (2) (3) (4)

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Benin-ife Relationship Explored by Orhogbua: 11:53am On Jan 31, 2023
Hello Nairalanders my name Tshepo Ajayi i am from Behchuana,My father is NIgerian specifically Bini and Yoruba and My mother from botswana I have always been interested in history in fact I major it in uni and coming from a bini-yoruba background i have a lot of historical heritage from of course these two ethnic groups and my two favourite civilisations are benin and ife and there relationship is something i wish to explore with the knowledge of the nairalanders and of course nigerians in this forum to explore it FULLY

of course these things can get quite tribalistic as i have observed
SO HERE ARE THE RULES

1. NO opinions to be thrown about without proof etc Sources,citations from experts on the subject (but this must also be be sourced) or traditions

2. NO BIGOTRY no bigotry shall be thrown around in this thread no matter how flustered or angry you are KEEP YOUR COMPOSURE yes i am talking about people like TAO11 or gregyboy or davidnazee who attack tribes for a little debate on nairaland

3. If you wish to debunk a statement please use sources and actual proof no emotions or such or stupid opinions

4. Statements are allowed to be made at first but can only be debunked with proof


Now of course i have my opinions with the relationship feel free to debunk with sources NOW these opinions are

1.Ife did not necessarily have a subservient relationship with benin but benin saw ife as a sort of religious site as ife has a strong religious affinity with benin thought benin has many differences in religion with ife

2 I wouldn't go as far to say that Benin was a vassal to ife but ife did have superiority and benin probabaly had ife dominated markets i do believe this ended after the oba ewuare came into power

3 The infamous "Oghene" from portuguese adventures to the itsekiri coast then occupied by benin, my professor (a man versed in african history) doesnt like the way that people use to give validity to kingdoms nearby benin superiority,the information given is iffy at best and details vague, did the portuguese see this process of handing of a brass head and symbols of authority?, or is it a misunderstanding and how did they gather this informatiion,also they never were never at the kings court in benin just near the gates by their description of the place,also where is this transfer in the traditions of benin or ife?

4 No low quality content in the form of none backed sources and of course stupid opinions like benin ruled to "ivory coast!!" and stuff like that

1 Like

Re: Benin-ife Relationship Explored by samuk: 12:42pm On Jan 31, 2023
These are few things you most Know.

1. Benin history was extensively documented by the Europeans from late 1400s to late 1800s, a period of about 400 years.

2. The last independent Oba of Benin before the British put an end to the Benin Kingdom/empire in 1897 was Oba Ovonramwen Nogbaisi (ruled 1888–1897), by this time Benin already have about 400 years of documented history by Europeans and locals such as Ajayi Crowder.

3. Nobody has so far be able to provide any documented sources that is dated before the reign of Oba Ovonramwen to support Benin/Ife connection. In other words no one can provide documented prove that Benin had any relationship with Ife before 1888.

4. There are no mention of Ife, Oduduwa and Oranmiyan in Benin history before 1888. There are no mention of Ife, Oduduwa and Oranmiyan in Benin first 400 years of documented history.

5. Benin kingdom was destroyed by the British in 1897.

1897 to date: (A new Benin history was created on paper with no evidence from the past)

Phase 2 of Benin history.

1. Documents were written after 1888 that claimed that Benin had relationship with Ife, there are two sources

A. Yoruba sources claimed that Oba of Benin was a son of Oranmiyan who was a son of Oduduwa who once ruled Ife. Most yoruba sources believed that Oduduwa was from the middle east/Saudi Arabia.

B. Benin sources agreed with the yoruba sources expect on the origin of Oduduwa. Benin sources believed that Oduduwa was a banished Benin prince who found his way to Ife In the 11th century.

1. So do you believe that Benin had any relationship with Ife before 1888 in the absent of documented evidence?

2. Do you believe Benin oral sources that didn't only claimed Oduduwa as Benin prince but also provided a time period of the 11th century.

Or

3. Do you believe the yoruba sources that claimed that Oduduwa was from the middle east or Saudi Arabia.

2 Likes

Re: Benin-ife Relationship Explored by Orhogbua: 2:10pm On Jan 31, 2023
samuk:
These are few things you most Know.

1. Benin history was extensively documented by the Europeans from late 1400s to late 1800s, a period of about 400 years.

2. The last independent Oba of Benin before the British put an end to the Benin Kingdom/empire in 1897 was Oba Ovonramwen Nogbaisi (ruled 1888–1897), by this time Benin already have about 400 years of documented history by Europeans and locals such as Ajayi Crowder.

3. Nobody has so far be able to provide any documented sources that is dated before the reign of Oba Ovonramwen to support Benin/Ife connection. In other words no one can provide documented prove that Benin had any relationship with Ife before 1888.

4. There are no mention of Ife, Oduduwa and Oranmiyan in Benin history before 1888. There are no mention of Ife, Oduduwa and Oranmiyan in Benin first 400 years of documented history.

5. Benin kingdom was destroyed by the British in 1897.

1897 to date: (A new Benin history was created on paper with no evidence from the past)

Phase 2 of Benin history.

1. Documents were written after 1888 that claimed that Benin had relationship with Ife, there are two sources

A. Yoruba sources claimed that Oba of Benin was a son of Oranmiyan who was a son of Oduduwa who once ruled Ife. Most yoruba sources believed that Oduduwa was from the middle east/Saudi Arabia.

B. Benin sources agreed with the yoruba sources expect on the origin of Oduduwa. Benin sources believed that Oduduwa was a banished Benin prince who found his way to Ife In the 11th century.

1. So do you believe that Benin had any relationship with Ife before 1888 in the absent of documented evidence?

2. Do you believe Benin oral sources that didn't only claimed Oduduwa as Benin prince but also provided a time period of the 11th century.

Or

3. Do you believe the yoruba sources that claimed that Oduduwa was from the middle east or Saudi Arabia.


1. Yes that is true out of all the nigerian kingdoms Benin has been extensively recorded compared to the rest except Kanem and the hausa states to an extent

2. Also true

3.Thats true to an extent Benin tradition says that ife sent a prince to benin to claim the position of oba on the behest of the edo elders or "uzama"

4 Not neccesarily an ife sculpture was taken from the palace of the oba showing some links

Phase two

1 I do because of said sculpture found in the palace also during the reign of the warrior kings the obas had not invaded ife but towns that used to be under its control were taken,and its never explained why?

2 Personally oduduwa being Yoruba or edo means nothing both kingdoms (Benin and yoruba kingdoms) have cultures which claim him but are both different peoples cultures and languages,but personally i see him as being neither as nothing but a migrant leader into ife during the war with the drunken king obatala

No i do not beleive oduduwa fell from heaven or is from saudi arabia unless others have proof
Re: Benin-ife Relationship Explored by Thebadpolitican(m): 3:19pm On Jan 31, 2023
First of all nothing like oduduwa existed before Samuel Johnson who was an oyo born and who later became a missionary for the British, he started his imaginery writing of oduduwa in 1897 to unite the yorubas to one ancestry in other to prepare them for colonization the British were already planning
He wrote extensively on the language, culture of the yoruba people...

Samuel Johnson effort to unite the yorubas brought about the oduduwa myth

1 Like

Re: Benin-ife Relationship Explored by samuk: 7:34pm On Jan 31, 2023
Orhogbua:



1. Yes that is true out of all the nigerian kingdoms Benin has been extensively recorded compared to the rest except Kanem and the hausa states to an extent

2. Also true

3.Thats true to an extent Benin tradition says that ife sent a prince to benin to claim the position of oba on the behest of the edo elders or "uzama"

4 Not neccesarily an ife sculpture was taken from the palace of the oba showing some links

Phase two

1 I do because of said sculpture found in the palace also during the reign of the warrior kings the obas had not invaded ife but towns that used to be under its control were taken,and its never explained why?

2 Personally oduduwa being Yoruba or edo means nothing both kingdoms (Benin and yoruba kingdoms) have cultures which claim him but are both different peoples cultures and languages,but personally i see him as being neither as nothing but a migrant leader into ife during the war with the drunken king obatala

No i do not beleive oduduwa fell from heaven or is from saudi arabia unless others have proof

Are you aware that early Yoruba writers believed or claimed Oduduwa was a female deity, not even a male human everyone is now claiming? Like I alluded to earlier, the stories have been changing since 1897.

It was Hausa/Fulani Sultan that told the Europeans that the yoruba people were led to Nigeria from the middle east/Saudi Arabia. Oduduwa wasn't mentioned by Sultan Bello as that leader. Like I said before, early Yoruba historians believed Oduduwa was a female deity. Oduduwa story started as a myth.

Oduduwa, Oranmiyan and Ife were not mentioned in the first 400 years of documented Benin history. The Oduduwa story began after 1888. Most Benin people don't take the Oduduwa story seriously, apart from reading it in a book, most ordinary people are not even aware of it outside of the palace. It's not a popular story/history amongst the Benin people.

2 Likes

Re: Benin-ife Relationship Explored by UGBE634: 7:51pm On Feb 01, 2023
samuk:


Are you aware that early Yoruba writers believed or claimed Oduduwa was a female deity, not even a male human everyone is now claiming? Like I alluded to earlier, the stories have been changing since 1897.

It was Hausa/Fulani Sultan that told the Europeans that the yoruba people were led to Nigeria from the middle east/Saudi Arabia. Oduduwa wasn't mentioned by Sultan Bello as that leader. Like I said before, early Yoruba historians believed Oduduwa was a female deity. Oduduwa story started as a myth.

Oduduwa, Oranmiyan and Ife were not mentioned in the first 400 years of documented Benin history. The Oduduwa story began after 1888. Most Benin people don't take the Oduduwa story seriously, apart from reading it in a book, most ordinary people are not even aware of it outside the of palace. It's not a popular story/history amongst the Benin people.
This was collected in 1939 from local people in Usen, it appears that the several communities in yorubaland had their own account of Oduduwa. The Binis did not start going to school on time, the Usens might not have had access to johnson's work at the time, so they were telling the story as they know it.

Of course we know the Uzama story is not true, but that should give us an inkling on the fact that the Usens and maybe other yoruba communities seem to have had the Oduduwa and Oranmiyan story as an actual person.

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Re: Benin-ife Relationship Explored by samuk: 9:23pm On Feb 01, 2023
UGBE634:
This was collected in 1939 from local people in Usen, it appears that the several communities in yorubaland had their own account of Oduduwa. The Binis did not start going to school on time, the Usens might not have had access to johnson's work at the time, so they were telling the story as they know it.

Of course we know the Uzama story is not true, but that should give us an inkling on the fact that the Usens and maybe other yoruba communities seem to have had the Oduduwa and Oranmiyan story as an actual person.

1. Who collected the story in Usen In 1939? And who gave the account?

2. Did you seen the thread on Asaba. Incase you didn’t, it started by someone claiming that a tradition was collected in Asaba dating back to early 1911 stating that early Asaba people were Igbo/Ibo, I presented an older account that dates back to 1865 written by Ajayi Crowder who stated that as of 1865 the original Asabans migrated from Benin.

You keep making the same mistake that make people suspect you as not being Edo. You pick and choose which myth or lie you believe, what make an Usen account of the same fallacy more authentic than that of the palace?

You completely ignored the fact that no one mentioned this so called aspect of Benin history for over 400 years of documentations. You and few others operate as if Benin history began in 1939.

The earliest account of Oduduwa is almost 100 years older than 1939 and it started as a myth.

If the Oduduwa story is correct, it would have been almost 800 years old by 1939. So you are saying Usen people remember 800 years unwritten history of Oduduwa that the yoruba themselves couldn't remember.

Did you seen how the tradition that traces Asabans to Benin change between 1865 and early 1900s. A period of less than 50 years. You somehow think human memory can go back as far as 800 years to recount unwritten events. People think you have issues with or against the palace or you are anti Benin or have an agenda but I will like to believe that you are not very well informed.

Edo in this forum have done so much is the past few years to separate fairytales and fabrications from our authentic history.

Sultan Bello was probably one of the first to write about yoruba history around 1820s and by 1826 the first Europeans visited the Alaafin and collected the traditions of the yoruba people. Oduduwa is not mentioned in both early accounts

If you want to be taken seriously, you will have to produce evidence dating back to 1896 that linked Benin with Oduduwa. Benin kingdom was destroyed in 1897. So I am not asking too much.

Life is a continuous learning process. We should be able to change our positions in the face of new facts otherwise we are not better than religious bigot and fanatics. Most of us believe most of the fairytales in Benin history started after the fall of Benin in 1897. If you have a contrary evidence produce it or continue to enjoy your fairytales.

You seem to have a fixed unmovable position otherwise it should have bothered you that no Oba of Benin, no Benin Prince and Princesses had a yoruba name throughout Benin history till 1897.

Anybody can write any nonsense today and future UGBE634 will be quoting and referencing it as the truth.

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Re: Benin-ife Relationship Explored by AutomaticMotors: 11:54pm On Feb 01, 2023
samuk:


1. Who collected the story in Usen In 1939? And who gave the account?

2. Did you seen the thread on Asaba. Incase you didn’t, it started by someone claiming that a tradition was collected in Asaba dating back to early 1911 stating that early Asaba people were Igbo/Ibo, I presented an older account that dates back to 1865 written by Ajayi Crowder who stated that as of 1865 the original Asabans migrated from Benin.

You keep making the same mistake that make people suspect you as not being Edo. You pick and choose which myth or lie you believe, what make an Usen account of the same fallacy more authentic than that of the palace?

You completely ignored the fact that no one mentioned this so called aspect of Benin history for over 400 years of documentations. You and few others operate as if Benin history began in 1939.

The earliest account of Oduduwa is almost 100 years older than 1939 and it started as a myth.

If the Oduduwa story is correct, it would have been almost 800 years old by 1939. So you are saying Usen people remember 800 years unwritten history of Oduduwa that the yoruba themselves couldn't remember.

Did you seen how the tradition that traces Asabans to Benin change between 1865 and early 1900s. A period of less than 50 years. You somehow think human memory can go back as far as 800 years to recount unwritten events. People think you have issues with or against the palace or you are anti Benin or have an agenda but I will like to believe that you are not very well informed.

Edo in this forum have done so much is the past few years to separate fairytales and fabrications from our authentic history.

Sultan Bello was probably one of the first to write about yoruba history around 1820s and by 1826 the first Europeans visited the Alaafin and collected the traditions of the yoruba people. Oduduwa is not mentioned in both early accounts

If you want to be taken seriously, you will have to produce evidence dating back to 1896 that linked Benin with Oduduwa. Benin kingdom was destroyed in 1897. So I am not asking too much.

Life is a continuous learning process. We should be able to change our positions in the face of new facts otherwise we are not better than religious bigot and fanatics. Most of us believe most of the fairytales in Benin history started after the fall of Benin in 1897. If you have a contrary evidence produce it or continue to enjoy your fairytales.

You seem to have a fixed unmovable position otherwise it should have bothered you that no Oba of Benin, no Benin Prince and Princesses had a yoruba name throughout Benin history till 1897.

Anybody can write any nonsense today and future UGBE634 will be quoting and referencing it as the truth.


That Guy Ugbe634 Is Not Edo!!! And if he doesn't desist from this maliciously ridiculously poor impersonation he would only have himself to blame! Benin History is not something you toy with without consequences
Re: Benin-ife Relationship Explored by AutomaticMotors: 11:57pm On Feb 01, 2023
And Even the OP of this thread if he turns out to be another Yoruba product on a misinformation campaign trying to impersonate Edo I won't be surprised, because I am seeing the tell tale signs already..... I Sha dey look
Re: Benin-ife Relationship Explored by UGBE634: 2:58am On Feb 02, 2023
samuk:


1. Who collected the story in Usen In 1939? And who gave the account?

2. Did you seen the thread on Asaba. Incase you didn’t, it started by someone claiming that a tradition was collected in Asaba dating back to early 1911 stating that early Asaba people were Igbo/Ibo, I presented an older account that dates back to 1865 written by Ajayi Crowder who stated that as of 1865 the original Asabans migrated from Benin.

You keep making the same mistake that make people suspect you as not being Edo. You pick and choose which myth or lie you believe, what make an Usen account of the same fallacy more authentic than that of the palace?

You completely ignored the fact that no one mentioned this so called aspect of Benin history for over 400 years of documentations. You and few others operate as if Benin history began in 1939.

The earliest account of Oduduwa is almost 100 years older than 1939 and it started as a myth.

If the Oduduwa story is correct, it would have been almost 800 years old by 1939. So you are saying Usen people remember 800 years unwritten history of Oduduwa that the yoruba themselves couldn't remember.

Did you seen how the tradition that traces Asabans to Benin change between 1865 and early 1900s. A period of less than 50 years. You somehow think human memory can go back as far as 800 years to recount unwritten events. People think you have issues with or against the palace or you are anti Benin or have an agenda but I will like to believe that you are not very well informed.

Edo in this forum have done so much is the past few years to separate fairytales and fabrications from our authentic history.

Sultan Bello was probably one of the first to write about yoruba history around 1820s and by 1826 the first Europeans visited the Alaafin and collected the traditions of the yoruba people. Oduduwa is not mentioned in both early accounts

If you want to be taken seriously, you will have to produce evidence dating back to 1896 that linked Benin with Oduduwa. Benin kingdom was destroyed in 1897. So I am not asking too much.

Life is a continuous learning process. We should be able to change our positions in the face of new facts otherwise we are not better than religious bigot and fanatics. Most of us believe most of the fairytales in Benin history started after the fall of Benin in 1897. If you have a contrary evidence produce it or continue to enjoy your fairytales.

You seem to have a fixed unmovable position otherwise it should have bothered you that no Oba of Benin, no Benin Prince and Princesses had a yoruba name throughout Benin history till 1897.

Anybody can write any nonsense today and future UGBE634 will be quoting and referencing it as the truth.

stop attaching emotions to your write up man, you should learn to take a different position, you write like you are writing to a child, one would have expected you would have gone to burn the Ogi-egor or Ogie-amien palace already. You complained of me not engaging you guys, these are the reasons. You guys cannot argue without attaching emotions to it. it appears that the several communities in yorubaland had their own account of Oduduwa of which Usen technically is one, infact I would opine the both stories has been there-As a human person and as a god as it is there today, some of the chroniclers just chose to write on the divinity of Oduduwa as it appeared in their community.



There is nothing to gain from the Edo Identity, as I have said before it is not up to them. Stop giving values to Non-entities, who are they in Benin, what have they done here to uplift the name of Edo, how many of these people can you go to their post and lift one sensible/educational post on Edo vis a vis other Edo tribal history, on Edo proper, on Edo ancient communities. Stop giving values to Non-entities. Look closely and see, I mean these guys are empty, I have done more than them to uplift the name of Edo here beyond the facade of You are Edo, you are not. It is not what they can now discredit with this useless nonsense. It is not pride. I am not the biggest Edo man here, I have done my bit. Even paul said I am the least of the apostles,yes even I have laboured more than you all


people who think that are low IQ demented fellows, I have done more in this forum to protect the integrity of Bini than them. Also it is not really up to them.

3 Likes

Re: Benin-ife Relationship Explored by AreaFada2: 2:16pm On Feb 02, 2023
Samuk, Automaticmotors and UGBE634

We should not let this thread degenerate.

We can all accept that on history, as in anything in life, our perspectives and agendas may differ.

However, one important thing about Benin/Edo over the centuries is that we have been truly liberal and accepted diversity as a way of life. People mistake strong cultural values for conservatism but not necessarily so.

Many people became Edo by marriage, residence, acculturation, departure from Benin and return of descendants decades later, etc. Not only just by ancestry.

As an Empire and most important City in the South-Eastern part of West Africa (at least by about 1440) before the rise of Old Oyo in the 1680-90s, Benin had to welcome and assimilate people. Rome did same, especially during the reign of Julius Caesar with so many Gallic senators (and their families/followers) brought into the Roman Capitol. Every truly progressive empire did. The late surgeon and historian Dr E. Aisien documented the importance of Benin City at that time.

I am Edo because of this cultural diversity. I began commenting on history/culture threads on NL to be a bridge between Edo and Yoruba perspectives but I was roundly insulted by our SW people for trying to give a more subjective perspective instead of a fixed tribal narrative. Because I truly believe that whether Benin gained from Yoruba or Yoruba gained from Benin in terms monarchy or culture, it shouldn't matter. Only the TRUTH should really matter.

I once volunteered to pay for DNA tests and analysis to establish the link or lack of. So having dual heritage doesn't imply partiality. In fact, it makes one more impartial. A lot of people are mixed but if family history is not well known (e.g. through traceable prominent lineage) most will not know their real heritage.

Moderation would not be a bad thing since none of us can be sure of the exact truth.

One thing I have seen over the past few decades is the rise of ethnic nationalism. It does not leave room for objectivity.

As for Usen, I said in a previous post that I would prefer not to delve into it. Because the uncompleted work once commissioned provided a different insight from the ones/versions now being debated. It was not completed so I won't say more on it.

We have been doing our bit to uncover history both on Edo and Yoruba side. And promoting culture through art. Not everything we can disclose.

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Re: Benin-ife Relationship Explored by samuk: 2:39pm On Feb 02, 2023
AreaFada2 and UGBE634

My position is very simple and I believe others would agree.

People shouldn't be discussing myth and pretend it's history. I am only interested in authentic Benin history. A myth will be called out for what it is unless it can be backed up with concrete evidence.

1. Whoever Oduduwa was/is to various yoruba communities is not my concern and he/she/it seems to have been many things (female deity, male god, leader of yoruba people from the middle east and according to late Ooni someone that climbed down a chain from heaven) depending on which yoruba you speak to.

2. My concern is as it relates to Benin history and when it became part of our history. As far as I can seen it's not earlier than 1896.

3. Like AreaFada2 said, Benin have been home to various groups in Nigeria and what seems to have happened is that the descendants of these various groups and their sympathisers have been trying to rewrite Benin history since 1897 to favour their various groups. The yoruba descendants and sympathisers seems to have done the most damage to Benin history.

4. I once read a rejoinder to a writeup done by one Anioma man called Okpewho on Benin history, it was shocking. It was equally shocking that the rejoinder was written by an Urhobo man who tried to savage Benin history from the said Okpewho and guess what, that same work of Okpewho has been referenced on this forum by one of our Anioma neighbours to support his position.

5. Like I said before and it's worth repeating here. Oduduwa didn't appear in Benin history until after 1896. I am not interested in other people's myth that keep changing.

6. Myths that keep changing is not history.

7. UGBE634 seems to be here to advance the yoruba narrative in expense of the palace narrative of the same story.

8. UGBE634 shouldn't be upset to be called out when himself is saying he doesn't believe the palace position on Oduduwa but he believes the Usen position. What he is doing is select aspect of same palace narrative which he say is not true and mix them up with Usen narrative to draw his own picture, when it suites him, he quotes the Uzama and when it doesn't he says he doesn't believe them. When yoruba people on this forum did same, they were challenged and UGBE634 cannot be allowed to take their place.

9. The desperation to write yoruba into Benin history started after oba Ovonramwen was banished to Calabar in 1897.

10. UGBE634, Benin history didn't start in 1939. I only engaged you because of those that may read you and think your position, which you are entitled to, is the majority positions of Benin on this forum. Your position as far as I can see is a minority position that doesn't represent the majority of Benin on this forum.

11. Late Oba Erediawa and late Ooni had a public disagreement on the personage of Oduduwa. The Usen version which UGBE634 is promoting is the Yoruba version, UGBE634 admitted that Usen is a yoruba town, so UGBE634 cannot be promoting a yoruba version of the same story and claim to be defending Benin interest.
Re: Benin-ife Relationship Explored by AutomaticMotors: 4:58pm On Feb 02, 2023
AreaFada2:
Samuk, Automaticmotors and UGBE634

We should not let this thread degenerate.

We can all accept that on history, as in anything in life, our perspectives and agendas may differ.

However, one important thing about Benin/Edo over the centuries is that we have been truly liberal and accepted diversity as a way of life. People mistake strong cultural values for conservatism but not necessarily so.

Many people became Edo by marriage, residence, acculturation, departure from Benin and return of descendants decades later, etc. Not only just by ancestry.

As an Empire and most important City in the South-Eastern part of West Africa (at least by about 1440) before the rise of Old Oyo in the 1680-90s, Benin had to welcome and assimilate people. Rome did same, especially during the reign of Julius Caesar with so many Gallic senators (and their families/followers) brought into the Roman Capitol. Every truly progressive empire did. The late surgeon and historian Dr E. Aisien documented the importance of Benin City at that time.

I am Edo because of this cultural diversity. I began commenting on history/culture threads on NL to be a bridge between Edo and Yoruba perspectives but I was roundly insulted by our SW people for trying to give a more subjective perspective instead of a fixed tribal narrative. Because I truly believe that whether Benin gained from Yoruba or Yoruba gained from Benin in terms monarchy or culture, it shouldn't matter. Only the TRUTH should really matter.

I once volunteered to pay for DNA tests and analysis to establish the link or lack of. So having dual heritage doesn't imply partiality. In fact, it makes one more impartial. A lot of people are mixed but if family history is not well known (e.g. through traceable prominent lineage) most will not know their real heritage.

Moderation would not be a bad thing since none of us can be sure of the exact truth.

One thing I have seen over the past few decades is the rise of ethnic nationalism. It does not leave room for objectivity.

As for Usen, I said in a previous post that I would prefer not to delve into it. Because the uncompleted work once commissioned provided a different insight from the ones/versions now being debated. It was not completed so I won't say more on it.

We have been doing our bit to uncover history both on Edo and Yoruba side. And promoting culture through art. Not everything we can disclose.

Boss I don hear you but we can't allow that boy to be spreading a Yoruba narrative in detriment of the Edo and that of the Palace! For the sake of future generations is why I am saying this....
Re: Benin-ife Relationship Explored by UGBE634: 12:11pm On Feb 03, 2023
samuk:
AreaFada2 and UGBE634

My position is very simple and I believe others would agree.

People shouldn't be discussing myth and pretend it's history. I am only interested in authentic Benin history. A myth will be called out for what it is unless it can be backed up with concrete evidence.

1. Whoever Oduduwa was/is to various yoruba communities is not my concern and he/she/it seems to have been many things (female deity, male god, leader of yoruba people from the middle east and according to late Ooni someone that climbed down a chain from heaven) depending on which yoruba you speak to.

2. My concern is as it relates to Benin history and when it became part of our history. As far as I can seen it's not earlier than 1896.

3. Like AreaFada2 said, Benin have been home to various groups in Nigeria and what seems to have happened is that the descendants of these various groups and their sympathisers have been trying to rewrite Benin history since 1897 to favour their various groups. The yoruba descendants and sympathisers seems to have done the most damage to Benin history.

4. I once read a rejoinder to a writeup done by one Anioma man called Okpewho on Benin history, it was shocking. It was equally shocking that the rejoinder was written by an Urhobo man who tried to savage Benin history from the said Okpewho and guess what, that same work of Okpewho has been referenced on this forum by one of our Anioma neighbours to support his position.

5. Like I said before and it's worth repeating here. Oduduwa didn't appear in Benin history until after 1896. I am not interested in other people's myth that keep changing.

6. Myths that keep changing is not history.

7. UGBE634 seems to be here to advance the yoruba narrative in expense of the palace narrative of the same story.

8. UGBE634 shouldn't be upset to be called out when himself is saying he doesn't believe the palace position on Oduduwa but he believes the Usen position. What he is doing is select aspect of same palace narrative which he say is not true and mix them up with Usen narrative to draw his own picture, when it suites him, he quotes the Uzama and when it doesn't he says he doesn't believe them. When yoruba people on this forum did same, they were challenged and UGBE634 cannot be allowed to take their place.

9. The desperation to write yoruba into Benin history started after oba Ovonramwen was banished to Calabar in 1897.

10. UGBE634, Benin history didn't start in 1939. I only engaged you because of those that may read you and think your position, which you are entitled to, is the majority positions of Benin on this forum. Your position as far as I can see is a minority position that doesn't represent the majority of Benin on this forum.

11. Late Oba Erediawa and late Ooni had a public disagreement on the personage of Oduduwa. The Usen version which UGBE634 is promoting is the Yoruba version, UGBE634 admitted that Usen is a yoruba town, so UGBE634 cannot be promoting a yoruba version of the same story and claim to be defending Benin interest.

I never said Usen is a Yoruba town, I said technically[/b]meaning it is a yoruba town by [b]ancestry even though they have integrated into Edo.

But how do you explain the fact that Oba Eweka and Akenzua's history of migration was in tandem with what the Usen people have but only changed with Eredieuwa
Re: Benin-ife Relationship Explored by samuk: 2:03pm On Feb 03, 2023
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Re: Benin-ife Relationship Explored by samuk: 2:12pm On Feb 03, 2023
UGBE634:
I never said Usen is a Yoruba town, I said technically[/b]meaning it is a yoruba town by [b]ancestry even though they have integrated into Edo.

But how do you explain the fact that Oba Eweka and Akenzua's history of migration was in tandem with what the Usen people have but only changed with Eredieuwa

The question you should ask is why did the history of migration started with Oba Eweka 2. Even in Oba Eweka era, Dr Egharevba was silent on Oduduwa's origin. Oba Erediawa only completed the narrative, he went back and gave reason as to why Oranmiyan was sent for... because they believe he was a Benin prince by blood. Even if the story was true, Erediawa completion of the narrative would make more sense because Benin was too established to invite a complete foreigner to rule over her.

There are several Benin oral traditions that revolved around several past Obas, the history of Oba Ewuare 1, Ewuakpe/Iden, Emotan, Imaguero, Esigie/Ida, even till Oba Adolor, the father of Oba Ovonramwen, etc. How come none of these oral traditions mention any migration from Ife, Oduduwa and Oranmiyan.

Benin history didn't start with Oba Eweka 2 in 1914.

By the time you push the Benin/Ife connection backwards before the reign of Oba Eweka 2, the narrative unravel and fall apart.

What is the meaning of Ovonramwen in yoruba? Ovonramwen is just one reign before Eweka 2.

How come Oba Ovonramwen didn't talked about migration from Ife, Oduduwa and Oranmiyan.

Why didn't Oba Adolor, the father of Oba Ovonramwen talked about Benin/Ife connection when he was extensively interviewed by Button in 1865.

Why didn't the Alaafin talked about Ife, Oduduwa and Oranmiyan when he was extensively interview by Hugh Clapperton in 1824. The Alaafin talked about the oba of Benin in that 1824 interview but as a friend not a brother or children of Oranmiyan as was later claimed in the 1900s.

If you are really interested in the true history of Benin, you should expand your data collection beyond and earlier than 1897.

1 Like

Re: Benin-ife Relationship Explored by UGBE634: 5:58pm On Feb 03, 2023
samuk:


The question you should ask is why did the history of migration started with Oba Eweka 2. Even in Oba Eweka era, Dr Egharevba was silent on Oduduwa's origin. Oba Erediawa only completed the narrative, he went back and gave reason as to why Oranmiyan was sent for... because they believe he was a Benin prince by blood. Even if the story was true, Erediawa completion of the narrative would make more sense because Benin was too established to invite a complete foreigner to rule over her.

There are several Benin oral traditions that revolved around several past Obas, the history of Oba Ewuare 1, Ewuakpe/Iden, Emotan, Imaguero, Esigie/Ida, even till Oba Adolor, the father of Oba Ovonramwen, etc. How come none of these oral traditions mention any migration from Ife, Oduduwa and Oranmiyan.

Benin history didn't start with Oba Eweka 2 in 1914.

By the time you push the Benin/Ife connection backwards before the reign of Oba Eweka 2, the narrative unravel and fall apart.

What is the meaning of Ovonramwen in yoruba? Ovonramwen is just one reign before Eweka 2.

How come Oba Ovonramwen didn't talked about migration from Ife, Oduduwa and Oranmiyan.

Why didn't Oba Adolor, the father of Oba Ovonramwen talked about Benin/Ife connection when he was extensively interviewed by Button in 1865.

Why didn't the Alaafin talked about Ife, Oduduwa and Oranmiyan when he was extensively interview by Hugh Clapperton in 1824. The Alaafin talked about the oba of Benin in that 1824 interview but as a friend not a brother or children of Oranmiyan as was later claimed in the 1900s.

If you are really interested in the true history of Benin, you should expand your data collection beyond and earlier than 1897.



how do you explain the title Oba, why does it seem to be in consonance with what they have in yorubaland. it seems to be what they can explain clearly. Why is it that it is the Usen people that has claimed relationship with the Oba that seem to have something similar, "Oba-Oluogbe"

A man who migrated from his land to the centre of another land would have largely acculturated let alone one who was maternally Bini.

The Juju-Ososomaye does not seem Bini, Orunmila, Sango, it seems more than not that there was an incursion of these gods and juju into Benin city via the Royal dynasty.

How many of them that claim descent from Ife that are in the center have yoruba names except those ones that still commune with and has an immediate link with Usen. many of these families bear pure and Unadulterated Bini names too

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Re: Benin-ife Relationship Explored by AutomaticMotors: 6:09pm On Feb 03, 2023
UGBE634:
how do you explain the title Oba, why does it seem to be in consonance with what they have in yorubaland. it seems to be what they can explain clearly. Why is it that it is the Usen people that has claimed relationship with the Oba that seem to have something similar, "Oba-Oluogbe"


You are a lost Soul!!!!!
Re: Benin-ife Relationship Explored by UGBE634: 6:18pm On Feb 03, 2023
AutomaticMotors:


You are a lost Soul!!!!!
I am up for truth and not partisan argument,why is the epicenter of the Edo Civilization using Oba instead of Ogie

If there is anything we can seem to take home is the fact that the Oba seem to be more western than anything else

The Oba title more than not seem intuitively not an Indigenous title, it is not what I can stomach, it is not what I have been able to digest.

To me there seem to have been a launch in attack and maybe the aborigines in Benin city were conquered and the Oba stool and title situated. That invitation does not really make sense to me, there is a missing link in history that is yet not properly explained

It would seem that the people migrated to the Usen area and an attack was launched at the centre to defeat those in charge and certainly take over power. That seem to account for the warlike nature of the ruling dynasty

4 Likes

Re: Benin-ife Relationship Explored by davidnazee: 7:59pm On Feb 03, 2023
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Re: Benin-ife Relationship Explored by UGBE634: 8:09pm On Feb 03, 2023
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Re: Benin-ife Relationship Explored by davidnazee: 8:10pm On Feb 03, 2023
UGBE634:
I am up for truth and not partisan argument,why is the epicenter of the Edo Civilization using Oba instead of Ogie

If there is anything we can seem to take home is the fact that the Oba seem to be more western than anything else

The Oba title more than not seem intuitively not an Indigenous title, it is not what I can stomach, it is not what I have been able to digest.

To me there seem to have been a launch in attack and maybe the aborigines in Benin city were conquered and the Oba stool and title situated. That invitation does not really make sense to me, there is a missing link in history that is yet not properly explained

It would seem that the people migrated to the Usen area and an attack was launched at the centre to defeat those in charge and certainly take over power. That seem to account for the warlike nature of the ruling dynasty

You seem confused.. what invitation doesn't make sense to you?
is it the invitation for ife to send someone to rule Benin or the invitation for Ekhalederan's descendant to return home to rule?

The Oba title isn't much of an issue. It could be of Edo origin or Yoruba origin. It could also be that Ekhalederan's descendant decided to introduce the title his father used in ife since that is the culture he was raised in too.

The only thing that doesn't make sense and a foolish assumption is that Benin was attacked by ife/usen or that Benin (an already established and civilized people) will go to ife to ask for a foreigner to come rule them.

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Re: Benin-ife Relationship Explored by UGBE634: 8:13pm On Feb 03, 2023
davidnazee:


You seem confused.. what invitation doesn't make sense to you?
is it the invitation for ife to send someone to rule Benin or the invitation for Ekhalederan's descendant to return home to rule?

The Oba title isn't much of an issue. It could be of Edo origin or Yoruba origin. It could also be that Ekhalederan's descendant decided to introduce the title his father used in ife since that is the culture he was raised in too.

The only thing that doesn't make sense and a foolish assumption is that Benin was attacked by ife/usen or that Benin (an already established and civilized people) will go to ife to ask for a foreigner to come rule them.
I would not tilt to the fact that they invited a stranger, the thing now is that Ekaladerhan seem to have died in Ughoton. That is why I am opining there seem to have been a conquest In history-the missing link. Possibly an attack was orchestrated from Usen after they migrated from Ife and stayed there for a while.

1 Like

Re: Benin-ife Relationship Explored by davidnazee: 8:15pm On Feb 03, 2023
UGBE634:
I would not tilt to the fact that they invited a stranger, the thing now is that Ekaladerhan seem to have died in Ughoton. That is why I am opining there seem to have been a conquest In history-the missing link. Possibly an attack was orchestrated from Usen after they migrated from Ife and stayed there for a while.

Who told you Ekhalderan died in Ughoton? why don't you think he journeyed from Ughoton due to threat of attacks and assassination from the palace he had problems with? He left Ughoton and journeyed to Ife where he became great. That may be the missing link you are searching for.

1 Like 1 Share

Re: Benin-ife Relationship Explored by samuk: 8:17pm On Feb 03, 2023
UGBE634:
I am up for truth and not partisan argument,why is the epicenter of the Edo Civilization using Oba instead of Ogie

If there is anything we can seem to take home is the fact that the Oba seem to be more western than anything else

The Oba title more than not seem intuitively not an Indigenous title, it is not what I can stomach, it is not what I have been able to digest.

To me there seem to have been a launch in attack and maybe the aborigines in Benin city were conquered and the Oba stool and title situated. That invitation does not really make sense to me, there is a missing link in history that is yet not properly explained

It would seem that the people migrated to the Usen area and an attack was launched at the centre to defeat those in charge and certainly take over power. That seem to account for the warlike nature of the ruling dynasty

Can you see how you are making assumptions to support your narrative. You are no longer convinced that there was an invitation but an attack that defeated the original Benin people, are you really serious right now? Not even the Alaafin and the Ooni went this far. Yet you claimed to be searching for the truth and defending Benin history.

1 Like

Re: Benin-ife Relationship Explored by davidnazee: 8:20pm On Feb 03, 2023
samuk:


Can you see how you are making assumptions to support your narrative. You are no longer convinced that there was an invitation but an attack that defeated the original Benin people, are you really serious right now? Not even the Alaafin and the Ooni went this far. Yet you claimed to be searching for the truth and defending Benin history.

He is confused.

2 Likes

Re: Benin-ife Relationship Explored by UGBE634: 8:20pm On Feb 03, 2023
samuk:


Can you see how you are making assumptions to support your narrative. You are no longer convinced that there was an invitation but an attack that defeated the original Benin people, are you really serious right now? Not even the Alaafin and the Ooni went this far.
what do you want me to think, since it is proven Ekaladerhan died at Ughoton, an outright invite of a stranger would not make sense. The situation of a foreign culture (the Oba title already insinuate it is foreign)in another land most times involves blood and war- there is a missing link in history samuel

1 Like

Re: Benin-ife Relationship Explored by davidnazee: 8:25pm On Feb 03, 2023
UGBE634:
what do you want me to think, since it is proven Ekaladerhan died at Ughoton, an outright invite of a stranger would not make sense. The situation of a foreign culture (the Oba title already insinuate it is foreign)in another land most times involves blood and war- there is a missing link in history samuel

What is the proof Ekhaladeran died at Ughoton? another Yoruba narrative

1 Like

Re: Benin-ife Relationship Explored by UGBE634: 8:28pm On Feb 03, 2023
davidnazee:


What is the proof Ekhaladeran died at Ughoton? another Yoruba narrative
that is the oral narrative the Ughoton people have, I think someone quoted ling roth in time past on this issue, when I lay my hands on it, I would post

1 Like

Re: Benin-ife Relationship Explored by davidnazee: 8:38pm On Feb 03, 2023
UGBE634:
that is the oral narrative the Ughoton people have, I think someone quoted ling roth in time past on this issue, when I lay my hands on it, I would post

It seems you choose what to believe, anything that suites your thinking is okay to you. There is no general consensus among the Ughoton people that Ekhaladeran died there. Roth quoting it doesn't make it true.

Ekhaladeran did not die in Ughoton. and your assumption that Benin (Igodomigodo) was conquered and a yoruba ruler imposed on them is utter foolishness.

1 Like

Re: Benin-ife Relationship Explored by UGBE634: 8:43pm On Feb 03, 2023
davidnazee:


It seems you choose what to believe, anything that suites your thinking is okay to you. There is no general consensus among the Ughoton people that Ekhaladeran died there. Roth quoting it doesn't make it true.

Ekhaladeran did not die in Ughoton. and your assumption that Benin (Igodomigodo) was conquered and a yoruba ruler imposed on them is utter foolishness.
Nazee this seem to be the closest way to the truth, maybe we have to really be serious with this search and get our brothers in those countries of portugal, dutch and others to interprete those early Bini works for us.

1 Like

Re: Benin-ife Relationship Explored by samuk: 8:44pm On Feb 03, 2023
UGBE634:
what do you want me to think, since it is proven Ekaladerhan died at Ughoton, an outright invite of a stranger would not make sense. The situation of a foreign culture (the Oba title already insinuate it is foreign)in another land most times involves blood and war- there is a missing link in history samuel

The very fact that a story doesn't make sense to you doesn't give you right to invent your own story to fill in the suppose missing gap.

Below is the summary of an extensive work done on Benin history by Ryder. What Ryder is saying is that the current Benin/Ife connection doesn't agree with what the Europeans recorded about Benin history from the 1400s or 15th century.

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