What's with all the rituals and constant need for MEMORISATION of incantations over actually understanding what they mean?

Because it is the Word of Allah. Try memorizing some verses yourself and see what the big deal is all about.

nuru:

Because it is the Word of Allah. Try memorizing some verses yourself and see what the big deal is all about.

Classic

Salaam,

Do u know the different names of Al-Qur'an? it has abt 27, i know 5 out of it, can any body contribute to that?

1) Al-Kitab
2) Al-Hidayah
3) Dhikr
4) Al-Nur
5) Shifaun lin nas

Cn anybody contribute to that?

Maassalam

nuru:

Because it is the Word of Allah. Try memorizing some verses yourself and see what the big deal is all about.

You just memorise because it is the word of allah? How about trying to even understand what you memorise?

PTH obviously doesn't memorise the bible.

Banderas:

PTH obviously doesn't memorise the bible.

no sir, memorising the bible is a futile exercise. Reading with the aim of understanding what is there is the key.
The bible says - for the letter killeth but the spirit it giverth life.
The bible says yet again - too much reading is a weariness to the soul.

In essence - it is not how much you read and memorise the letters, but how much you understand and apply those scriptures to your life.

no sir, memorising the bible is a futile exercise. Reading with the aim of understanding what is there is the key.
The bible says - for the letter killeth but the spirit it giverth life.
The bible says yet again - too much reading is a weariness to the soul.

In essence - it is not how much you read and memorise the letters, but how much you understand and apply those scriptures to your life.

Oh the irony of it all. And the hypocrisy. You criticise someone because of his religious beleifs, and because he knows his scripture, yet here you are quoting your own scripture. in essense, knowing scripture is only alright when you're the one who knows it.

You give Christianity (and by reference, Christ) a bad name. Sir.

Banderas:


Oh the irony of it all. And the hypocrisy. You criticise someone because of his religious beleifs, and because he knows his scripture, yet here you are quoting your own scripture. in essense, knowing scripture is only alright when you're the one who knows it.

You give Christianity (and by reference, Christ) a bad name. Sir.

Not really, the problem is the same. In your haste to hunt down percieved errors and hypocrisy in my post because of your clouded mind you have failed miserably to understand the meat in my last few posts.

- I ask a simple question, why do muslims MEMORISE the quran? Nuru answers that it is simply because it is the words of allah - of course i agree that he is right. But the question here is what is the essence of simply memorising the quran in a language you do not understand? What is the spiritual benefits of memorising prayers in arabic, reciting tafsirs taught in the mosque and yet you have no clue what they mean?

Now in your misguided haste to appear smart, you attempt to ask me if that means i do not memorise the bible. Of course my answer is NO, the bible CLEARLY indicates that to memorise it is of no use, the most important aspect is that you understand what it says by the leading of the Holy Spirit and allow those very words you read apply to the life that you live.

Heh heh. I was speaking about simple english. Do you memorise the bible? The answer is yes, you do. Oh, I admit you memorise it out of understanding, but you do memorise it. Almost all your posts are supported by some quote or the other from the bible.


To the best of my knowledge, you do this because your faith tells you to, and not because common sense says it's a good thing to read the bible and quote from it. However, you seem to think it's okay to take the mickey out of someone else's faith that tells him to memorise his quoran. That is what I have a problem with. You have NO respect for other people's beleifs, yet you expect people to agree when you quote the bible.

From a hardcore muslim (or other faith) point of view, all your quoting means the same to me as a dog barking. I listen for wisdom. I look out for tolerance. You have neither.

naa bandy, again you deliberately twist my words in order to have a wobbly leg to stand on

Banderas:

Heh heh. I was speaking about simple english. Do you memorise the bible? The answer is yes, you do. Oh, I admit you memorise it out of understanding, but you do memorise it. Almost all your posts are supported by some quote or the other from the bible.

Read my last two posts again and my answer to that question has been a consistent NO. I do not make the effort to memorise the scriptures but by virtue of having grown up in a home where the bible is read morning and night, certain scriptures stick to your memory. I still find myself having to refer back to the bible to locate full quotes most times.
The essence of my posts is to READ with UNDERSTANDING not merely to memorise a language i do not understand. The quranic equivalent of what Nuru claims is that i memorise Hebrew texts. That makes no sense if i don't understand Hebrew at all.

Banderas:

To the best of my knowledge, you do this because your faith tells you to, and not because common sense says it's a good thing to read the bible and quote from it. However, you seem to think it's okay to take the mickey out of someone else's faith that tells him to memorise his quoran. That is what I have a problem with. You have NO respect for other people's beleifs, yet you expect people to agree when you quote the bible.

Naa, again you fail miserably to understand myy point. The bible does not say to memorise it that was why i quoted the earlier two passages. Lazarus in the bible was so poor he could hardly afford a bible, yet he died and went to heaven. Which bible was he reading to get there? If you can afford the bible and read it then you do so to learn more about the God you purport to worship.

Banderas:

From a hardcore muslim (or other faith) point of view, all your quoting means the same to me as a dog barking. I listen for wisdom. I look out for tolerance. You have neither.

That is essentially what you have closed your mind to always see in my posts ever since the last verbal tussle we had. It has very little to do with points raised on this thread of which your sheer lack of ability to grasp the real essence of this posts is clear for all to see. You don't really listen for wisdom because it is not an attribute you have, you listen rather for just about anything that will justify your tenous attempts to reach God by works and not by faith.
tolerance? It is not intolerance to question why a student memorises his engineering textbook rather than try to understand the concepts. . .

@Banderas

Can you explain to us why an African who can't speak Arabic is busy memorising Arabic texts? Why should anyone memorise at all even if in their own language?

PTH - You quote scripture word for word. You quote it from your memory, yet you say this scripture isn't memorized. We seem to have a language issue here.

My initial and constant discussion with you has always been the fact that you refuse to acknowledge God beyond a very narrow perspective. You say I close my mind to your posts - this isn't true, I initially gave you credit for things you said. I don't doubt you description of your faith, or of God, I simply refuse to agree that your bible totally and comprehensively describes God. I am of the opinion that a man (like Lazarus in your example) can live a fulfilled christian life and make heaven without reading a bible.

And strangely, you have again used a simple argument on a forum to refer to my personal life, and to point out that I have no wisdom. I'm afraid I disagree with this. I don't consider myself extremely wise, but neither do I consider myself lacking in wisdom.

Intolerance is not questioning a student for learning, intolerance is informing a student that the student's learning is nonsense, and the student has no wisdom, especially when one doesn't even take time out to listen to what the student is saying.

@Iman - I can't explain that. But neither can I explain how an African who traditionally had many religions that lived side by side in peace now decides to choose an imported religion, and then discriminate against all other religions.

Banderas:

PTH - You quote scripture word for word. You quote it from your memory, yet you say this scripture isn't memorized. We seem to have a language issue here.

Bandy, in your desperate effort to find just about anything wrong with my posts you make so many factual errors.
1. Is it possible you might want to understand that i may have a bible i refer to to get the quotes from?
2. Perchance you might want to consider that there are websites where the entire bible can be found - www.bible.com (which i use very often here).
3. that by virtue of having been exposed to the bible for more than 20yrs that you may just have picked up certain portions of the bible unless your brain leaked like a sieve?

Banderas:

My initial and constant discussion with you has always been the fact that you refuse to acknowledge God beyond a very narrow perspective. You say I close my mind to your posts - this isn't true, I initially gave you credit for things you said. I don't doubt you description of your faith, or of God, I simply refuse to agree that your bible totally and comprehensively describes God. I am of the opinion that a man (like Lazarus in your example) can live a fulfilled christian life and make heaven without reading a bible.

This issue is not meant for this thread so i wont go indepth here. Suffice it to say that when people cry about christians refusing to acknowledge God beyond a "very narrow perspective" it is certainly for ulterior motives. The reason you think the bible does not comprehensively describe God is for the simple fact that you want to hold on to a life of sin and stake a claim for heaven at the same time.

Banderas:

And strangely, you have again used a simple argument on a forum to refer to my personal life, and to point out that I have no wisdom. I'm afraid I disagree with this. I don't consider myself extremely wise, but neither do I consider myself lacking in wisdom.

Considering the fact that you CATEGORICALLY claimed in your last post that i lack both wisdom and tolerance, this statement above is very bewildering.

Banderas:

Intolerance is not questioning a student for learning, intolerance is informing a student that the student's learning is nonsense, and the student has no wisdom, especially when one doesn't even take time out to listen to what the student is saying.

It is not intolerance to tell a student that it is fultile to read his chemistry textbook in Russian when he does not understand the language. No where did i claim that Nuru has no wisdom and i have considered what he had to say in defence - that he memorises it simply because it is allah's book.

The bible says in Joshua 1: 8 that you should meditate which means 1)Reflect deeply on a subject or 2)Think intently and at length, as for spiritual purposes.