Welcome, Guest: Register On Nairaland / LOGIN! / Trending / Recent / NewStats: 3,194,833 members, 7,956,150 topics. Date: Monday, 23 September 2024 at 05:46 AM |
Nairaland Forum / Nairaland / General / Religion / The Philosophy Of Spatial Dimensions And the Spiritual Realm (7742 Views)
The Dimensions And Tips For Rest On Every Side / How Russian & Ukraine War Explain The Spiritual Realm Vividly / Which Gospel Song Takes You Into The Spiritual Realm? (2) (3) (4)
(1) (2) (3) ... (17) (18) (19) (20) (21) (Reply) (Go Down)
Re: The Philosophy Of Spatial Dimensions And the Spiritual Realm by Dream17(f): 11:52am On May 30, 2023 |
AudioMonkey: Why would you think those are mutually exclusive? Any evidence that contradicts or refutes a claim would be salient in the decision to withhold belief from it. I don't always ridicule claims, even when they are idiotic or poorly thought out, but some people invite such ridicule on their claims when they persist or repeat them in the face of evidence or argument that demonstrates them to be so, or when they exhibit arrogance, hubris and dishonesty from the very first post. I try to be patient, but I am after all only an evolved ape, or human if you prefer. How can someone claim to seek evidence for God but affirm he doesn't exist and tag those who say otherwise delusional? Well I can't speak for other atheists, but the decision to accept a claim as likely true would be based on a critical scrutiny of all data provided by those advocating the belief. How can you seek evidence for God when you're already sure he doesn't exist I am an atheist and this is not my position. I simply don't believe in any deity or deities. How sure I am that what is being claimed is untrue would vary according to the individual claims. I am always sceptical of all claims, and disbelieve all claims presented with insufficient or without any objective evidence, and I disbelieve all unfalsifiable claims, and also must remain agnostic about them. Like I said, some just hate this whole God stuff... Some aspects of religion are deeply pernicious and deserving of antipathy. This may be hard for you to grasp, but nonetheless you don't get to tell others how they feel about any beliefs. ...not like they sincerely seek any evidence You're simply wrong. I subject god claims to exactly the same standard of scrutiny and belief as all other claims, this is the very definition of open minded. they blaspheme... Blaspheme is a word theists often use to try and bully those who don't share their beliefs, and ringfence those beliefs from criticism. You can demand respect for yourself, but not for anything you believe. This is simply bias. Blaspheme means no more to me than someone insulting flat earthers or mermaids would to you. they get mad when you keep parading the God discussion in their face. Well naturally, how would you feel if atheists knocked your door, or screamed atheism from pulpits, and threatened you for not being an atheist? 1 Like |
Re: The Philosophy Of Spatial Dimensions And the Spiritual Realm by LordReed(m): 11:55am On May 30, 2023 |
AudioMonkey: Why are you being facetious over a simple question? Can you explain what is wrong in mocking a concept of a god that I find comical or are you unable to explain what is wrong with it? 1 Like |
Re: The Philosophy Of Spatial Dimensions And the Spiritual Realm by Dream17(f): 12:17pm On May 30, 2023 |
AudioMonkey: You are a little confused. First, there are two distinct strains of atheistic thought. Second, I know of no atheist worth his salt, that would make the general assumption, "No gods exist." What most atheists assert is the following; "I have never seen good evidence for the existence of God or gods". Now, when an atheist makes the assertion that a god does not exist, they are willing to adopt the burden of proof. For example, the God of the bible is so contradictory that it can not exist. It is all knowing, but gives you free choice. That is NOT possible. It is either he knows what you are going to do before you do it, and he is all knowing -- and, you don't have free choice... or he does not know, in which case he is not all knowing and the Bible is lying and god does not have a plan. This god does not exist. The bible god is also supposed to be "just" and "merciful". If the bible god is just, he can not be merciful. Mercy is the suspension of justice. This is a direct contradiction and this god does not exist. So, when an atheist makes a claim that any god does not exist, you might want to ask them which god they are talking about. I will not tell you that your god does not exist until you make a logical contradiction or posit something you can not possibly know. A god that exists beyond time or space for example -- you have absolutely no knowledge of any such place. A god that exists for no time in no space is nothing. All thoughts and movements are temporal. There are two brands of atheism: 1. Strong Atheists/Antitheists: They assert God or gods do not exist. 2. Weak Atheists/Agnostic Atheists: They assert there is no good reason to believe in God or gods. Most atheists I know fluctuate between these two positions depending on the definition of God being used. So, when an atheist asks for evidence of the god claim, he or she is willing to be swayed by argument, examples, or evidence sufficient to support the claim. They are not automatically rejecting the claim but rather, measuring the evidence. And as soon as you use Pascal's Wager, an argument from contingency, a first cause argument, some form of presuppositionalism, or any common argument that has been debunked for hundreds of years, you are going to be laughed at for your ignorance. You have confused "sincerely seek" evidence with "sincerely sought" evidence. Most atheists are at the END of their journey. They have spent years seeking. If you are a Christian trying to convert some atheists, you may be telling them anything they've already heard a thousand times before. They already know what you are going to say before you say it. It looks like rejection without understanding to you because you have not yet worked through all the arguments. Are you a Christian? If yes, then why don't you do this: Post your very best evidence for the existence of the God you believe in and let's see where it goes. It is not parading the God discussion in my face that I mind. I actually like honest debates and honest requests for information. It is parading the same rotten shit over and over and over in front of my nose, even after you're corrected, that I mind. It is positioning yourself like you're somehow superior to me because I'm lacking belief in a god, that I mind. It is the intellectual dishonesty of the Christian apologists that I mind. Every atheist worth his salt will always give you a chance to debate honestly. Me personally, I can even let the dishonest ramble on for days before finally ignoring them. I guess I just keep hoping they will open their eyes. What about you: are you willing to have an honest conversation or do you just want to play the victim card on behalf of Christians (if you're not one)? Do you believe in a god? If yes, define the god you believe in and tell us why. 2 Likes |
Re: The Philosophy Of Spatial Dimensions And the Spiritual Realm by Nobody: 12:31pm On May 30, 2023 |
LordReed:You mean the way atheists are being facetious in their claim of seeking evidence which exactly is all what I've been saying. Now to your question, I think I did answer it more than once, though I can't remember any where I said mocking a god is wrong, that must have been your own choice of words. Since you said there are different concepts of a god or gods, which I also agree with. So if all other concepts are wrong, which of them got approved by the atheist community as right? If none is, then what right concept has the community provided so we can all follow such? I already made a simple point at the beginning but seems you want to keep spinning the conversation all around, let's see what we arrive at in the end. |
Re: The Philosophy Of Spatial Dimensions And the Spiritual Realm by LordReed(m): 12:50pm On May 30, 2023 |
AudioMonkey: You said it was blasphemous, what do think that means? Where did I say all concepts of god are wrong? What do you mean approved by the atheist community as right, were you told there a god needs to be approved by an atheist community? That is an individual choice so the atheist community has no say in that. What was the simple point you made? |
Re: The Philosophy Of Spatial Dimensions And the Spiritual Realm by Nobody: 2:06pm On May 30, 2023 |
LordReed: @blasphemous, you only advanced the context into something a bit different and started dwelling on it like it was our main discussion. I mentioned it in passing, in relation to your query on hate. While you're right insult/blaspheme can be comic but it can equally indicate hate. If you insist when people hate you, the next thing they do is praise you with kind words instead of insults, then it's alright. It's not my main discussion, so I don't have to dwell on that. @concept, you stated there are thousands concepts of god. Or maybe I should ask what you mean by that in your last reply so I don't misunderstand you. The simple point I made in the beginning is, it's easy to deduce God. Then you replied though it may not be hard to, it's the evidence. And since then till now, all I'm driving at is that, it's not about evidence, positive deduction has always been enough in important issues of life, some people only hide under the evidence thing. Many atheists are, not because of evidence rather because of all other reasons they're not saying. Anyone who "sincerely" seeks evidence to his initial deduction will not end up an atheist in the first place, worst case, he would end up as someone sitting on the fence. |
Re: The Philosophy Of Spatial Dimensions And the Spiritual Realm by KnownUnknown: 2:19pm On May 30, 2023 |
Dream17: May I ask the atheists if they have seen “bad” evidence for the existence of god or gods? Secondly, what makes the atheist an authority on “good” or “bad” evidence? Thirdly, since when are gods subject to the rules and regular functioning of the world? Gods by definition are superior to man and the world. Dream17: What if contradiction is a character trait of this god? This god could very well be amusing itself by giving contradictory instructions or this works could be a project to determine how beings with intelligence would act given contradictory instructions. The god could also be a disinterested observer who has run this world experiment countless times so that he knows what will happen 99.99 percent of the time and it only acts when that 0.01 deviation from norm occurs. My point is that the atheist has no ground to stand on regarding how a god should act and base the existence of the god on his opinion about the god’s character. Dream17: What plan do you mean? Does the Bible refer to the same god in all the stories? Is the god of Exodus the same god in Job? Dream17: Why should justice and mercy be mutually exclusive? How is mercy a suspension of justice? Dream17: Oh, I agree! Quite often theist and atheist are just different sides of the same coin. One says Heads the other says Tails. The atheist just seems to forget that in order to say “god(s) does not exist” he has to have a god in mind in the first place. Same goes for the agnostic who just defines his god as “unknowable”. Dream17: Why should a god be subject to human logic? If they posit something they can’t possibly know, it could be a simple case of lying. Dream17: A god exists wherever the person making the claim wants it to exist. He may have no knowledge of it but he has the idea. Dream17: A god that exists for no time in no space is everything. Dream17: Gods exist as ideas borne of movement and thought. |
Re: The Philosophy Of Spatial Dimensions And the Spiritual Realm by Nobody: 5:15pm On May 30, 2023 |
Re: The Philosophy Of Spatial Dimensions And the Spiritual Realm by Maynmaynmayn: 5:24pm On May 30, 2023 |
AudioMonkey:“god” apart from its germanic root is gotten from greek, theos, as you know New Testament was written in greek. Theos originally referred to olympian gods.. If you look at the word “theism” and the opposite “atheism” it literally comes from theos. A’theism— the “A” means without, theism means gods, put together it “means without gods/theos”. A sango, zeus, odin, yahweh and allah etc worshippers are theists and then we have atheists that reject all these gods. god/theos is a title. We can talk about the Germanic origin of god from gudan too. 1 Like
|
Re: The Philosophy Of Spatial Dimensions And the Spiritual Realm by Nobody: 5:29pm On May 30, 2023 |
Maynmaynmayn: Are you the same person as dream17? |
Re: The Philosophy Of Spatial Dimensions And the Spiritual Realm by Maynmaynmayn: 5:29pm On May 30, 2023 |
AudioMonkey:I’m an atheist, I’m always eager to tutor theists. 2 Likes 1 Share |
Re: The Philosophy Of Spatial Dimensions And the Spiritual Realm by Nobody: 5:34pm On May 30, 2023 |
Maynmaynmayn: Alright start tutoring me, I'm also eager to read and learn from you. I can only engage Dream17 for now and I wish it would be a quick one. My days of debates are now over. I already paid my dues. |
Re: The Philosophy Of Spatial Dimensions And the Spiritual Realm by Maynmaynmayn: 5:36pm On May 30, 2023 |
AudioMonkey:Where should we start? Should i teach you about theism and the different types ? Or should i teach you the different Monotheistic Gods especially yahweh the israelite god the Christians or properly called chrestians worship? Religion thrives because of lack of knowledge! 2 Likes
|
Re: The Philosophy Of Spatial Dimensions And the Spiritual Realm by Nobody: 5:38pm On May 30, 2023 |
Maynmaynmayn:We'll still get to those later but to start with, teach me about the origin of life since a god doesn't exist nor created it. |
Re: The Philosophy Of Spatial Dimensions And the Spiritual Realm by Maynmaynmayn: 5:42pm On May 30, 2023 |
AudioMonkey:That’s not what an atheist does. We reject theism, that’s all. What is a “god”? Why should a “god” exist? Since a god can exist, Let’s take greek gods for example, defend why they exist and how they created the world since a god exist. Ancient greece worshipped zeus, the atheists those days would have rejected zeus the same way the atheists today is rejecting yahweh and any gods. 1 Like
|
Re: The Philosophy Of Spatial Dimensions And the Spiritual Realm by Dream17(f): 6:09pm On May 30, 2023 |
KnownUnknown: Yes, there is plenty of bad evidence -- biblical stories, personal testimony, miracles. Etc… It's terrible evidence, but it is evidence of a kind. None of it holds up to critical inquiry. Good evidence is that which comports with reality. It can be observed, measured, tested, and independently verified. It is the same for me as it is for anyone else in the world. We can make objective claims about good evidence. It's not very difficult. Bad evidence can be easily challenged. Old stories, opinions, un-evidenced assertions, violations of logic, erroneous claims, and the like. If one believes in a god that is not subject to the rules and regular function of the world, then how did s/he notice it? Is this god a simple mental construct that has no manifestation in reality? It is as useless as Santa or Unicorns -- a made up story. It makes no difference at all if I believe it or not. Now, if this god does manifest in this world, I would certainly like to hear about it. Wouldn't it be amazing to find such a god? Here is a question for you though: how would you tell a God from a sufficiently advanced civilization of aliens? I don't have the means of recognizing a god. How about you? How would you recognize a god if you saw one? How would you know it was not a highly evolved being with technology far superior to your own? Are you asserting that you have the ability to know what a god is? How do you know that? What if contradiction is a character trait of this god? This god could very well be amusing itself by giving contradictory instructions or this works could be a project to determine how beings with intelligence would act given contradictory instructions. Fine. Can you make an argument for that god? The result is the same. There is no reason to believe in a god that is self-contradictory. A god that violates the laws of logic is by definition illogical. What reason is there to believe in this god? It is the same as believing in a god that simultaneously exists and does not exist. It manifests as dry water. You are welcome to hold such an opinion but it certainly does not qualify as good evidence. The god could also be a disinterested observer who has run this world experiment countless times so that he knows what will happen 99.99 percent of the time and it only acts when that 0.01 deviation from norm occurs. God could be anything you imagine, right? No problem. What reason is there to believe in such a god? A disinterested god who is not there is no different from a god who is not there. There is no good reason to believe in such a god. And given the attributes that you mention… come on… how in the hell are you going to even notice such a being exists? Again, you have merely created a story and have no means of verifying any such thing in a concrete way. That which is asserted without evidence can be rejected without evidence ~ Hitchens' Razor What plan do you mean? I did reference the Christian God. Did you miss that? Check the following passages: Psalms 33:11, Jeremiah 29:11, and Proverbs 3:5-6 Does the Bible refer to the same god in all the stories? No. Both God and Jesus change througout the books of the bible. Why should justice and mercy be mutually exclusive? How is mercy a suspension of justice? How is this not logically evident? Justice is necessary to society. A society without justice will fall to corruption and disorder. If all thieves were shown mercy after their thefts and forborne any punishment, the judicial system would have no power to enforce a law against stealing. One must decide who is deserving of mercy. In our own society who gets mercy from our judges, police officers, women, and some other groups? We call it unjust, but it is a system within which we live. Mercy is the suspension of justice. The atheist just seems to forget that in order to say “god(s) does not exist” he has to have a god in mind in the first place. Not entirely true. You are painting with a broad brush. I frequently visit places like r/atheism, and any atheist making a stupid claim there will generally be dragged across the carpet. Not just God claims by the way. You might want to check around that corner a bit and see what happens when an ignorant atheist tries to join the ranks. They get destroyed. A god exists wherever the person making the claim wants it to exist. He may have no knowledge of it but he has the idea. Lol. Having an idea of a god is just that: "Having an idea of a god" . Ideas do not manifest into reality just because you have them. If that were the case, you would have just lost your head because I imagined a dark knight slicing it off. Imaginations do not qualify as evidence for anything. A god that exists for no time in no space is everything. What universe are you living in? Everything is the set of all existent things. A god that exists in no time and no space is not a part of the set of existent things. It does not qualify. It is nothing more than an imagination until you can demonstrate how it comports with reality. Gods exist as ideas borne of movement and thought. All you have said is "Ideas exist". So what? An idea of a God does not justify or bring into existence an actual god. I can imagine you eating a plate of shit, that does not mean it actually happened. 1 Like |
Re: The Philosophy Of Spatial Dimensions And the Spiritual Realm by Dream17(f): 6:15pm On May 30, 2023 |
AudioMonkey: There was no contradiction. 1. I gave you specific criteria for when an atheist might take the strong atheist position. 2. I stated there are two types and I know no one in one of them. Do you posit that I know everyone who is identified as atheist? You are cherry-picking just to be argumentative. Both positions were adequately clarified. Maybe you should take your time and read my post again. So, I ask, what's your stand about god? So we can know how to proceed or not with our discussion. What God are you referencing? I fluctuate between agnostic atheist and antitheist depending on the god claim. If I ever bump into a god claim that can stand against critical inquiry, I will have to admit that it probably exists. That does not necessarily mean I will worship it. But first -- you'll have to demonstrate that your god exists. 2 Likes |
Re: The Philosophy Of Spatial Dimensions And the Spiritual Realm by Nobody: 6:18pm On May 30, 2023 |
Re: The Philosophy Of Spatial Dimensions And the Spiritual Realm by Maynmaynmayn: 6:25pm On May 30, 2023 |
AudioMonkey: You are a ignorant theist. Atheists have different perspectives about lives, origin and existence. The only common thing about atheists is rejection of gods, the name “atheist” LITERALLY says that. Even in theism yall don’t agree on the same perspective so which one should the atheist accept, brahma own? Sango own? Baal own? You don’t even know what theism means, don’t worry you’ll learn the basic here. since a god exist then prove to me how greek gods exist or you have specific gods that exist and not all gods exist? 2 Likes
|
Re: The Philosophy Of Spatial Dimensions And the Spiritual Realm by LordTheus(m): 6:28pm On May 30, 2023 |
AudioMonkey: The only thing atheists have in common is a lack of belief in creator gods I.E gods of religion. That's all. When it comes to the things you pointed out @bold. Atheists don't always agree with each other. There are atheists who believe in the existence of aliens. There are some who believe in karma etc. 2 Likes |
Re: The Philosophy Of Spatial Dimensions And the Spiritual Realm by Wilgrea7(m): 6:36pm On May 30, 2023 |
Permit my interjection sir TenQ: I can agree that experiences that seem to be termed "spiritual" are highly subjective. 2. Just as NDE experiences are real to the person experiencing it, Spiritual experiences are REAL to those who experience them this is the point i actually wanted to touch on. I think this depends on what you mean by "real". Let me explain. I hope we can all agree that human consciousness is incredibly complex. I assure you this isn't an attempt at evasion. We know due to certain conditions, people can experience certain things that may seem subjectively "real" to them, but clearly non-existent to the rest of the populace. For example, people with schizophrenia can report seeing things and even hearing voices that are not there. Even things like insomnia and prolonged sleep deprivation have been shown to lead to some hallucinations of some sort. Same with things like psychedelic drugs and so on. The reason I'm making reference to these hallucinations is that they seem to fall into the category of things that appear real to the person experiencing them, but not to other people. Now, I'm not trying to use these as a reason to dismiss these things completely, I think these sort of examples raise more questions about the nature of consciousness, like I pointed out before. 3. Just as there is no physical proof of NDE experiences, there are no physical proofs of Spiritual [/i] I think I fall into the first category. I don't accept just any experience as true, just as I wouldn't accept any halluciation as necessarily true or real. But I'm also not too quick to dismiss these things as falsehoods either. Like I said earlier, it raises more questions about the nature of consciousness, which unfortunately, we don't currently have the answer to. 1 Like |
Re: The Philosophy Of Spatial Dimensions And the Spiritual Realm by Nobody: 6:37pm On May 30, 2023 |
Re: The Philosophy Of Spatial Dimensions And the Spiritual Realm by Nobody: 7:10pm On May 30, 2023 |
Re: The Philosophy Of Spatial Dimensions And the Spiritual Realm by Nobody: 7:13pm On May 30, 2023 |
Re: The Philosophy Of Spatial Dimensions And the Spiritual Realm by Maynmaynmayn: 7:14pm On May 30, 2023 |
AudioMonkey:Look at this indoctrinated theist just ranting jargons, you keep proving how ignorant and senile a typical theist is. If you are not a dullard, is a Sango worshipper not a theist just like a yahweh worshipper so should i start generalizing all theists as uneducated people worshiping dummy idols? You haven’t said any reasonable thing. You don’t even know what “theism” means. I’m yet to expose your Israelite deity, i only quoted you to tutor you on what “atheism” means. Now if you want me to reject your stance, i will do that, just to be sure is your creator, yahweh? 1 Like
|
Re: The Philosophy Of Spatial Dimensions And the Spiritual Realm by Wilgrea7(m): 7:48pm On May 30, 2023 |
AudioMonkey: You seem to be painting somewhat of a false dichotomy here. Just because we reject the positions held by theism on the origin of life, and existence, doesn't mean we necessarily have to have our alternative position or theory. Most atheists and agnostics reject the theistic positions due to lack of evidence. If you make a claim without any verifiable supporting evidence to back it up, then I am under no obligation to believe it. Claims about the origin of life and existence made by theists are still yet to be proven in any way. Hence our lack of belief. 2 Likes |
Re: The Philosophy Of Spatial Dimensions And the Spiritual Realm by Nobody: 7:49pm On May 30, 2023 |
Maynmaynmayn: You're already sounding so incoherent and frustrated and I might have felt sorry for you if I didn't make myself clear to you initially. You showed up in my mention and I told you I'm only interested to debate Dream17 RN but you insisted you want to tutor me, fine. Now that you can't tutor me, you don't have to kill yourself with frustration under my mention. You seem like an atheist rookie that has just been released into sane space to constitute nuisance. Kindly find another target you can unleash all your negative energies on. |
Re: The Philosophy Of Spatial Dimensions And the Spiritual Realm by Maynmaynmayn: 7:52pm On May 30, 2023 |
AudioMonkey:You are ignorant that’s why it sounds incoherent to you. You don’t even know who a “theist” is lol You are generalizing atheists with the few you have met, should i also generalize theists too, some radical muslims that bombs people should i start calling all theists murderers? Like i Said you haven’t said any reasonable thing since morning, you don’t even understand what “theism” means. Start from the basic, you are little. Yahweh worshipper, I quoted you to tutor you on what “atheism” means, I’m yet to reject your stance and I’m eager to. You will LEARN! Religious thrives on Ignorance. 2 Likes
|
Re: The Philosophy Of Spatial Dimensions And the Spiritual Realm by Nobody: 8:11pm On May 30, 2023 |
Maynmaynmayn: Now you're sounding dumber. You're too frustrated and agitated to understand all happening here. The point is, if you're the type of atheist who doesn't have your own stand, knowledge and answer about existence, life and the rest, why show up in my mention saying you want to tutor me? Now that you can't tutor me, you don't have to keep crying under my mention. |
Re: The Philosophy Of Spatial Dimensions And the Spiritual Realm by Maynmaynmayn: 8:16pm On May 30, 2023 |
AudioMonkey:You are the dummy just like your creator yahweh. You are yet to say anything reasonable that’s because you are empty, you don’t know what “theism and atheism” means. If you are not a dullard what does an atheist got to do with knowing existence of life, and if you say you know something you have to PROVE it, we are not dumb like most theists, we don’t make claims we can’t back. And what’s even wrong in saying “I don’t know” than basking in ignorance you are feeding yourself. I’ve tutored you on what atheism mean, almost everyone on this thread has but like a typical theist you hang on to your beliefs and rejects knowledge. Yahweh worshipper, do you want me to expose your creator origin? https://www.forbes.com/sites/johnkotter/2016/11/29/the-power-of-saying-i-dont-know/?sh=783140951858 2 Likes
|
Re: The Philosophy Of Spatial Dimensions And the Spiritual Realm by Nobody: 8:18pm On May 30, 2023 |
1 Like 1 Share |
(1) (2) (3) ... (17) (18) (19) (20) (21) (Reply)
Everyone Has An Everlasting Home After Death, It's Either Heaven Or Hell / I Am Shocked Beyond Words! Christians Why? / Any Relationship Between Altar Calls And Salvation?
(Go Up)
Sections: politics (1) business autos (1) jobs (1) career education (1) romance computers phones travel sports fashion health religion celebs tv-movies music-radio literature webmasters programming techmarket Links: (1) (2) (3) (4) (5) (6) (7) (8) (9) (10) Nairaland - Copyright © 2005 - 2024 Oluwaseun Osewa. All rights reserved. See How To Advertise. 115 |