tpia@:

Madam rgp92

the thread is not a competition with your bini one, ok?

You are understandably attached to bini since its your hometown but there's no need to develop anxiety attacks over yoruba art.

I'm trying to be accommodating here since no one person can claim a monoploy on the thread, but try to disabuse your mind of the notion that the thread must copy the bini one word for word.

That's a very silly and juvenile way of thinking if you ask me.

So, learn to respect other people's views and learn to be civilized in your discourse.

If what you need is male companionship due to loneliness, then there are plenty of males in sexuality and romance sections who can help youwith that.

lol what?

Rossikk:


Actually the sculpture depicts the Yoruba rendition of the Ancient Egyptian god Bes (below). Note the similarity of features and skull necklace. This dramatically depicts the continuity among ancient Yorubas with their Nile Valley heritage.

this is just foolish. Yoruba peoples are not from Nile. there are no such records. [size=16pt]Yoruba peoples are indigenous to Yorubaland[/size].


stop trying to invent roots closer to Israel. tommorow you will say that Yoruba are Hebrew. dirty slave mentality.

^^^You are tragically ignorant. Ancient Egypt was a black African society in antiquity. It's name was 'Kemet' (black nation). So I've no clue where you're coming with that 'slave mentality' stuff, unless you think the Egyptians were white people.  You need to read and study a lot more before coming into a thread like this. Starting with THIS:

http://www.raceandhistory.com/cgi-bin/forum/webbbs_config.pl/noframes/read/2139

Jacob described a ladder that he saw, and the Yoruba talk of a chain.

Rossikk:

^^^You are tragically ignorant. Ancient Egypt was a black African society in antiquity. It's name was 'Kemet' (black nation). So I've no clue where you're coming with that 'slave mentality' stuff, unless you think the Egyptians were white people.  You need to read and study a lot more before coming into a thread like this. Starting with THIS:

http://www.raceandhistory.com/cgi-bin/forum/webbbs_config.pl/noframes/read/2139

Ancient egypian were black, thats fact. Why must Yoruba be from egypt? We're making it look like egypt is the only black civilization.

Rgp92:

Ancient egypian were black, thats fact. Why must Yoruba be from egypt? We're making it look like egypt is the only black civilization.

and also considering the fact that most Egyptians had a brown NOT black skintone as depicted in their numerous paintings.









EGYPTIANS- NUBIANS - BERBERS

^^Many Egyptian artists painted their woman light to signify femininity as an artistic convention.

Igbo female masquerades are normally painted light to signify same feminity. It's a very old African convention.



Secondly, on that mural above, you labelled the wrong set of people as Egyptian. The Egyptians in that pic are represented by the brown skinned men in the lower middle segment. ALSO, that rendition in NOT original, but is an artist's copy made from the tomb of Seti I. Needless to add, the Egyptians were much darker in the original tomb art rendition of the mural.

It's a very old African convention

in some parts of africa maybe.

@ topic

need someone to explain the concept of time and time keeping in yorubaland prior to colonization.

I feel wary of the response to your question since the supposed custodians haven't taught us the reason for the names of the weeks and months of the solar calendar. Also, do they remember the names of the 13 months of their lunar calendar?

I am worried to see my own brothers or sisters argue whether or not the ancient Egyptians where black!!!

The only people who have ever said differently are the white people trying to claim Egyptian civilisation! There is no doubt that the Egyptians where black, it was not until later Egypt got invaded by the Greeks the Romans and Assyrian that the demographics radically changed.
How dark or light- skinned they ever were does not change the fact that they were Black Negroid Africans.

They say themselves that "we came from the south" and south of Egypt was Nubia and rest of black Africa. One cannot either neglect the many similarities between the languages of the old Egyptians and Yoruba, Akan, Wolof among others. There are many words in common.

In fact old Egypt was not only in Africa but OF Africa too. White people think Egypt was too great to be built and ruled by Africans so they have aggressively tried to claim it themselves. Not only do Ancient Egypt have similarities in laguage with other black African cultures but also in parts of their mythology about the creation and also many symbols, tools etc.

The reason why Egypt is so important is that its the base of even western civilization. The Greeks did not come up with very much themselves most everything they copied from Egypt like from the mythology and Gods to science, philosophy, and art even hieroglyphs! The Greeks travelled to Egypt to study their sciences and knowledge. A famous copycat of Egyptian knowledge and mythology was Plato. He was the one that translated the story of "Atlantis" into Greek After Greece there was the Romans and so on,

Good point Malstrom.

Some of us are conditioned to automatically equate the AfroAsia of Yoruba civilization to the AfroAsia of today ad its demography. So when they hear Yoruba is from AfroAsia, they cannot accept that AfroAsia in those ages were populated ad ruled by Negros. Some automatically think you are saying Yoruba is from moder day Arabs or even Jews. When you put Yoruba arts up and ask them to explain why the image has an ephod or a breastplate or a sun disk, they keep silent.

Our forefathers passed on information down the line in oral instruction, in arts and as well in rituals. Our oral history, our arts ad our rituals, all speak in harmony and point only in one direction as our origin. That origin is AfroAsia and is proto semitic - Egypt/Canaan/Yemen/Saba/Sudan.

Ile-Ife is very important to our history and is mentioned in Odu Ifa but has anyone thought about Ile-Ife in Nigeria being a rename? Ife could have very well existed as a name or place in the East and when they settled in tropical Africa the Yorubas once again recreated the name and sanctified the land we now call Ile-Ife in Nigeria.

In fact how does one explain the match between the following places and its correspondence with the progeny of Abraham: Ketu, Offa, Ife, Nok, Bida ?

Keturah was Abraham's third wife and bore him Midian who fathered five children - Epha, Epher, Enoch, Abida and Eldaah.

David is not Dafidi but Dawodu. Similarly, Eredo might have been named thus in remembrance of Eridu which is reputed in some quarters to be the first city on earth.

All humans comes from east-central Africa originally. People later spread out throughout Africa and later out of Africa. Ethnic groups have also been moving around within Africa. White historians wants us to believe that Egypt was in Africa but not of Africa and that Egypt in some magical way was isolated from the rest of Africa and no exchange took place between various different peoples and kingdoms on the continent.

For me the important thing is Egypt was a black African civilisation with huge interaction and exchange with other parts of Africa and the influences are evident!There is so many similarities throughout other parts of Africa and the Egyptian civilisation and that puts it all in a context. All Africans should be proud of being the people behind the greatest Civilization of all time.

Egypt, Zimbabwe, Ghana, Songhay, Mali Empire, Buganda, Kush, Nubia etc,  

@ time keeping in ancient yorubaland:

Among the stone monuments in a sacred grove he describes a monolith of triangular section which the natives declare was formerly used as a kind of chronometer when the shadow cast by the structure touched certain definite points of a circumscribed circle the time had come for certain sacred observances



http://books.google.com/books?id=UeAqAAAAYAAJ&pg=RA1-PA90&dq=yoruba+atrium&hl=en&ei=U4rRTrqSFMnv0gHJ5_gR&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CDIQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=yoruba%20atrium&f=false

figures.

the author has pointed out that the cosmic notions of the Yoruba markedly resemble those of the ancient Etruscans. Both divide the universe into quadrants again subdivided into quarters each of which is presided over by a distinct deity.

The system of divination is also quite similar and so is the method of turning about during prayer. These and other homologies are accepted as proof of historical contact and Frobenius sets himself the question whether the imported culture reached the Yoruba country by overland routes through Africa or by way of the Strait of Gibraltar and the West African coast .

Frobenius selects four cultural elements for special treatment- the impluvial style of architecture (impluvialbau) the bow, the loom and the cosmic conceptions.

Hence Yoruba architecture must be assumed to have been imported by a sea route

the impluvial style of architecture being referred to is the roman atrium.

quite similar to traditional yoruba styles [which are simpler] btw.


roman:










traditional yoruba central courtyard:

[img]http://www.pitt.edu/~natrooms/africa/T3c_files/image002.gif[/img]

http://eden-saga.com/en/3740-atlantis-american-empire-back-to-europe-etrusque-africa-yoruba-country.html

Etrusceans were themselves an outgrowth of Egyptian influence. Yoruba is a hybrid of the many AfroAsiatic cultures who I call influx elites and a small residual of the aboriginal natives.

You recall, Tpia, the discussion between Debo and I on Obatala being a reference of the consciousness to a historical link with Atlantis and that this had to be the Phoenician element in us. There is a comment in Jospeh Campbell's book - The Hero of a Thousand Faces - where a Greek or Roman ruler had the ambition of routing the sea Northward to the Irish coast and Cornwall - or some place like that - or Southward around the Senegal to Yorubaland. I don't have the book at moment but if I get it I will give the quote.

I attended, as an audience, a lecture of Middle Eastern scholars not too long ago in which they discussed "The People of The Books" - that is the people of monotheistic faith and scriptures. One of the participants mentioned seeing Yoruba arts and after reading up on the history and some books is led to believe without any doubt that Yorubas are Sabeans.

There is something about the Yoruba race in terms of human evolution and civilization that refuses to be silenced. In the 1800s, Ifa attached itself to the slaves to America and spread the Yoruba divinity. In this century, it seems our arts and classics are attaching themselves to the Europeans to find their own voice and recognition and proper place in the timeline of human enlightenement and knowledge.

Negro_Ntns:

http://eden-saga.com/en/3740-atlantis-american-empire-back-to-europe-etrusque-africa-yoruba-country.html

Etrusceans were themselves an outgrowth of Egyptian influence. Yoruba is a hybrid of the many AfroAsiatic cultures who I call influx elites and a small residual of the aboriginal natives.

You recall, Tpia, the discussion between Debo and I on Obatala being a reference of the consciousness to a historical link with Atlantis and that this had to be the Phoenician element in us. There is a comment in Jospeh Campbell's book - The Hero of a Thousand Faces - where a Greek or Roman ruler had the ambition of routing the sea Northward to the Irish coast and Cornwall - or some place like that - or Southward around the Senegal to Yorubaland. I don't have the book at moment but if I get it I will give the quote.

I attended, as an audience, a lecture of Middle Eastern scholars not too long ago in which they discussed "The People of The Books" - that is the people of monotheistic faith and scriptures. One of the participants mentioned seeing Yoruba arts and after reading up on the history and some books is led to believe without any doubt that Yorubas are Sabeans.

There is something about the Yoruba race in terms of human evolution and civilization that refuses to be silenced. In the 1800s, Ifa attached itself to the slaves to America and spread the Yoruba divinity. In this century, it seems our arts and classics are attaching themselves to the Europeans to find their own voice and recognition and proper place in the timeline of human enlightenement and knowledge.

very interesting.

I'm getting a clearer picture now [sort of], but there are still so many loose ends and gaps to be filled.

does anyone know:

1. why twins are venerated among the yoruba

2. when exactly did this veneration start. [hard one, for sure].

not saying it had to have started at some point in time- just wondering if there's any indication it did.

the discussion between Debo and I on Obatala being a reference of the consciousness to a historical link with Atlantis and that this had to be the Phoenician element

do you have a link? I'd like to check that.


obviously, there was an amalgamation of influences which gave rise to traditional yorubaland before the european conquest.

much information was lost during the turbulent times in europe [middle ages], hence its not an easy task piecing everything together.

You know I rarely give link on anything if its widely available.  I give keyword!  Use "Yoruba and Atlantis" to search resource. 

There is a fiction by Charles Brokaw. . . . Atlantis Code.  This is supposed to parallel works such as DaVinci Code.  In fact author gives some Vatican related conspiracy that releasing the truth will finish off the Church as a global authority.  It's hard to give that any credibility being a fiction, but then one must wonder why the two indigenous works that talk extensively about and track the origins of Yorubas were suppressed and destroyed from circulation.

obviously, there was an amalgamation of influences which gave rise to traditional yorubaland before the european conquest.

much information was lost during the turbulent times in europe [middle ages], hence its not an easy task piecing everything together.

No doubt!  By European conquest I take it that you mean colonization, right?  If Frobenius, in his stereotyped mind that only Europe had nobility of high social order and philosophy, could even admit to that much credit accorded  the Yoruba civilization, though of a small scale relative to the totality, then you can imagine how much influence and value would have resulted if he had spoken to the truth objectively and unbiased.  What they silenced in Samuel Johnson and Bello in 1800s, they are revisiting in 2000s for more revelations, not just about the Negro but even about their own perspective in the Cosmos.

1. why twins are venerated among the yoruba

2. when exactly did this veneration start. [hard one, for sure].

Culturally I'd have to say it's a reference to semitic cultures and must have been a custom practiced in the abandoned land and they settled with it into the aboriginal land.

In ritual ceremonies, Twins is two or duality! The theme in IFA itself is two; opposite pair of finite transcending into GOD the infinite. Where the one attempts to become like GOD, it is handicapped by the opposite other and thus the ambition is shunted. This is the meaning in the struggle of life. The struggle to fight and overcome the inner conflict so one can be freed to unite with the divine - the source! This is what Eshu is.

We need the archetype to sharpen our sense of discipline in order to win the battle against the ego and thus having been purged and purified we stand in the league of illuminated souls and can earn the reward waiting for us with Obatala. Obatala is purity, only the illumined can be in his presence. Eshu is the purgator of the nonsense trapped within us that hold us back, the self-defeating voice within.

must have been a custom practiced in the abandoned land and they settled with it into the aboriginal land. 

that's very possible.


is there any record of other african cultures which venerate twins like the yoruba.

I know twins are venerated in Many African cultures!!! The Ganda people in Uganda for example its a great pride for the family and especially the mother. In traditional communities she will be treated like a queen by the other women, they'll really treat her with respect. On top of that all the family members get new names and there are certain names for a mother of twins, a brother of twins, a father of twins and so on. And the twins will get special names too of course,

In some cultures I have heard its the opposite, that twins are hated, but I'm not sure about that at all.

If you meen veneration like towards icons I dont know

Here is the quote from page 10 of the book The Hero with a Thousand Faces by Joseph Campbell. It is talking about King Minos or Minoa of Crete:

"The Cretan empire had greatly prospered under the sensible jurisdiction of this celebrated lawgiver and model of public virtue. Knossos, the capital city, became the luxurious, elegant center of the leading commercial power of the civilized world. The Cretan fleets went out to every isle and harbor of the Mediterranean; Cretan ware was prized in Babylonia and Egypt. The bold little ships even broke through the Gates of Hercules to the open ocean, coasting then northward to take the gold of Ireland and the tin of Cornwall, as well as southward, around the bulge of Senegal, to remote Yorubaland and the distant marts of ivory, gold and slaves."

Negro_Ntns:

Here is the quote from page 10 of the book The Hero with a Thousand Faces by Joseph Campbell. It is talking about King Minos or Minoa of Crete:

"The Cretan empire had greatly prospered under the sensible jurisdiction of this celebrated lawgiver and model of public virtue. Knossos, the capital city, became the luxurious, elegant center of the leading commercial power of the civilized world.  The Cretan fleets went out to every isle and harbor of the Mediterranean; Cretan ware was prized in Babylonia and Egypt. The bold little ships even broke through the Gates of Hercules to the open ocean, coasting then northward to take the gold of Ireland and the tin of Cornwall, as well as southward, around the bulge of Senegal, to remote Yorubaland and the distant marts of ivory, gold and slaves."

And do you think any artifact linking Crete to any part of Western Nigeria has actually been found or will be found?

This sounds a bit like he's rehashing Frobenius's Mediterranean Ife theory. He was careful not to state his sources, but I suspect that Frobenius is his source.

He just states that the Cretes travelled by sea and made business with people from Egypt to west Africa. It makes sense to me, could be true. At least they made  business with Egypt. Did you know their first writing system was based on Egyptian Hieroglyphs? The Minoan people had strong ties to Egypt from the very start

Unsupported fringe theories can go both ways. If Dr. Campbell wants to conjecture about the Cretans founding settlements in Western Nigeria with no evidence, others can equally assert that West Africans founded Minoan Crete!!


http://www.cwo.com/~lucumi/crete.html

http://clyde.winters.tripod.com/chapter6.html

http://www.amazon.com/Minoan-Linear-Scripts-Niger-Context/dp/1872596150

http://www.amazon.com/African-Origins-Classical-Civilisation/dp/1434350800

http://www.amazon.com/Who-were-Minoans-African-Answer/dp/1425920071/ref=pd_bxgy_b_text_b


You, as a Yoruba, have no more reason to accept a Mediterranean/Minoan/Atlantis ---> Ife story than they (Cretans) have a reason to accept that some proto-"Niger-Congo" group founded Minoan Crete thousands of years ago. I don't know why you guys are really buying this stuff.

It's just speculation, really and neither side has any truly convincing evidence.  There is no reason to believe that Professor Joseph Campbell knew more about Crete than Professor Graham Campbell-Dunn, so Professor Campbell's completely unsupported brief remark definitely does not hold more weight than Campbell-Dunn's three whole published books merely because he was famous.

I don't see that Mr Campbell suggest anywhere in that citation that Minoan people founded Yoruba land. He is simply saying there were trading connections, really

Malstrom:

I don't see that Mr Campbell suggest anywhere in that citation that Minoan people founded Yoruba land. He is simply saying there were trading connections, really

I think he insinuated it. If he's not rehashing the Frobenius theory, then why is he claiming that direct contact between the Mediterranean and Yoruba land occured?

Anyway, if I recall correctly, some scholars have stated that Ife had trading connections with parts of Northern Africa via parts of Northern Nigeria (I think I read that in Graham Connah's book African Civilizations: an archaeological perspective). Now since parts of North Africa had contact and trade with the Mediterranean, it's not hard to see, if we accept the premise of an Ife-Northern Africa connection, how an indirect contact of some sort could have occurred between Western Nigeria and the Mediterranean, but to assert direct contact with no evidence seems really implausible and like a rehashing of Frobenius's work.