MaxInDHouse:


You're a real atheist!

Just calling people names simply because they refused to be molded by your thinking but at then you're hypocritically supporting the same people against another adherent of the same book you want to debunk!

Welcome to my world where my name reigns in the brains of those who have stylishly made themselves my fans by maligning my name always!

I have always known you as a fraud! You default mode is to be shouting ATHEIST!!! up and down when you encounter a superior argument all the time. It was on the Jehovah Witness founder thread I got to understand your former moniker was Maximus69-what a depraved name. 69 as in 69? Damn! 69 and preaching Jehovah Witness? Damn son!
It was there I saw people calling you Mad Max and I have to admit the moniker fits you to a pin 📌.

Caveatemptor:

Were the gospel writers anonymous or not?

They were known by those handling the writings before they died!

Caveatemptor:

Did they write the gospels in Greek or in Aramaic?

Greek!

Caveatemptor:

Did the church elders fraudulently name these anonymous books after Mark,Luke, Matthew and John knowing these were not the real names of the authors?

NO! They found the names through the scrolls as signed by each writer because God's law to the Israelites says each witness must come forward with his name. So each gospel writer signed on the records bearing his message!

Caveatemptor:

We're the gospels not written at least 60 years after the crucifixion?

NO! The only writer whose account was written 65 years after Jesus' execution was John the apostle in the year 98c.e.

Caveatemptor:

Were any of these anonymous writers witnesses to the Christ ministry or did they rely on unreliable hear say to write these gospels?

All of them were eyewitnesses of Christ's life and ministry the four of them lived and worked with Jesus as his followers!

Caveatemptor:


I have always known you as a fraud! You default mode is to be shouting ATHEIST!!! up and down when you encounter a superior argument all the time. It was on the Jehovah Witness founder thread I got to understand your former moniker was Maximus69-what a depraved name. 69 as in 69? Damn! 69 and preaching Jehovah Witness? Damn son!
It was there I saw people calling you Mad Max and I have to admit the moniker fits you to a pin 📌.

So in a nutshell you've become one of my numerous fans on Nairaland shey?

You're welcome my friend, it's my pleasure meeting you!

MaxInDHouse:


When making research you atheists are driven by your preconceived thought:

"There is no God"

So your IQ is tampered with.

Jesus didn't speak Aramaic rather he spoke the Hebrew language used in writing the first sets of books before the exiled Jews from Babylon returned. It's after they returned from Babylon that most of them began learning the language Moses and other prophets used to write their inspired books.

So by the time Jesus walked the earth it was the Greeks that reigned before the Romans gained dominance so most of the nations around the Mediterranean sea were speaking Greek that's why Jesus' disciples who wanted to spread the GOOD NEWS of God's Kingdom penned down their messages in the language that's wide spoken by many nations back then.

Later when Rome has gained power they used Latin (their own language) instead of Greek it's another strategy of strengthening themselves as many will be forced to learn the language of their rulers just as you are typing now in English.

So don't allow hearsay to becloud your sense of reasoning the gospel writers weren't the ones who named those books but those they handed over the books knew the one each writer wrote and they penned down their messages in the popular language back in their days: Greek!

Mad Max you are a fraud!!!
And a DISGRACE to Christians!!!

I am done here!!!
How can I be having a discussion with ignorant Christians like Mad Max and SIRTee15 ??
They don't even know the history of their religious book for damn sake!!!

Caveatemptor:

Mad Max you are a fraud!!!
And a DISGRACE to Christians!!!

And who are you so called SCHOLARS?

Caveatemptor:
I am done here!!!
How can I be having a discussion with ignorant Christians like Mad Max and SIRTee15 ??
They don't even know the history of their religious book for damn sake!!!

Ọmọ you invited me first o so if you're running away that's your cup of coffee.

Next time don't quote the person you can't win!

MaxInDHouse:


And who are you so called SCHOLARS?

So it was illiterate fishermen followers of Christ whose first language was Aramaic that went and wrote the four canonical gospels in sophisticated Greek language?
What kind of people am I having a discourse with bayi??
I am not responding to your ignorant asss again on this thread.
Which kind of arrogant ignorance is this for damnation sake??

Caveatemptor:

So it was illiterate fishermen followers of Christ whose first language was Aramaic that went and wrote the four canonical gospels in sophisticated Greek language?
What kind of people am I having a discourse with bayi??
I am not responding to your ignorant asss again on this thread.
Which kind of arrogant ignorance is this for damnation sake??

Even if you're a fool something in your brains should tell you that there is no Jew who can't read and write because according to the laws of their God they must TEACH their children how to read the laws of their God.

So who told you they can't read and write?

Idiots like you don't know that illiteracy among Jews simply means those who didn't attend rabbinic institutions not someone who can't read or write!

Caveatemptor:


Were the gospel writers anonymous or not?
Did they write the gospels in Greek or in Aramaic?
Did the church elders fraudulently name these anonymous books after Mark,Luke, Matthew and John knowing these were not the real names of the authors
We're the gospels not written at least 60 years after the crucifixion?
Were any of these anonymous writers witnesses to the Christ ministry or did they rely on unreliable hear say to write these gospels?

50s AD wasn't 60 yrs after crucifixion my friend.

I will come back and debunk the nonsense anonymous authors u parroting but let me focus on the op first. Seems to be genuine in her quest to learn.

Caveatemptor:


Mad Max you are a fraud!!!
And a DISGRACE to Christians!!!

You are wasting your time with these guys. They are stuck on their ways in their delusion. No matter how logical you sound it is like madness to them. Just drop your piece and leave. Having an argument with them is like pouring water into a basket. A complete waste of your time because they will drag you down to their level of madness and beat you with the experience.

Dantedasz:



You are wasting your time with these guys. They are stuck on their ways in their delusion. No matter how logical you sound it is like madness to them. Just drop your piece and leave. Having an argument with them is like pouring water into a basket. A complete waste of your time because they will drag you down to their level of madness and beat you with the experience.

Thanks bro.
Cheers.

Dantedasz:

You are wasting your time with these guys. They are stuck on their ways in their delusion. No matter how logical you sound it is like madness to them. Just drop your piece and leave. Having an argument with them is like pouring water into a basket. A complete waste of your time because they will drag you down to their level of madness and beat you with the experience.

Smart atheist!

He knows that he can't do anything so he don japa!

MaxInDHouse:


Before speaking against the New Testament why not agree with the atheist on the writers of other books in the Old Testament?

Every Aboki to his kettle..

at least what they where writing makes sense, and they set the tone for those seeking knowledge.
not some bull crap story about 'son of god'...or God impregnating another mans wife...those that even sound good in your ears...

22jumpstreet1:

Every Aboki to his kettle..

So you follow them as their kettle resemble your own!

TheMadame:

At boldened ,

I never even knew one account had even Peter going to the tomb and found it was empty .
And I had read the Bible many times myself.

When they were reporting the Alu 4 case was it the same?

Witnesses never see the same thing at the same time as proven by the arguments people have when they are reporting a case.

MaxInDHouse:


Smart atheist!

He knows that he can't do anything so he don japa!

The point is that people like you(Christians) don't have the answer to the OPs questions. Rather than allow those that have the answers to provide them ,your type specialise in derailment of the thread with your asinine attitude .
I am not ready to bang my head on a wall talking to people spewing rubbish like you. So I prefer to drop my piece and exit. It is not running away as you put it but just being sensible.

TheMadame:

I ask these questions because such a significant event such as the resurrection of our Lord should be a constant and consistent account.
I will post the passages from the four gospels for those more enlightened to cast more light and explanation. Thank you.

I've gone thru the different resurrection accounts in the 4 gospel and the there's actually no contradiction at all.
In fact the different stories complement each other and when merged together the resurrection events makes logical sense

U raised 3 salient points which I will address.
1. The number of women or people who visited the tomb
2. Number of angels
3. Who rolled the stone away
4. What happened after they left the tomb.


1. How many women visited the Tomb?

The important thing to note here is that none of the gospel writers said 'only' a particular number visited the tomb. They simply mentioned names of women they knew that visited the tomb.
actual logical contradiction requires exclusionary clauses such as “only x, y, and z were there and no one else” or “only three people witnessed incident a.” None of the Gospel texts do that here; hence, no demonstrable contradiction exists (see Matthew 28:1; Mark 16:1; Luke 24:1-10; John 20:1).

Gospel of John seemingly makes it like only Mary Magdalene visited the tomb until we get to John 20:2. Mary finds the tomb empty, runs to Peter and (presumably) John, and says the following, “They have taken away the Lord out of the tomb, and WE do not know where they have laid Him.”

In reporting the words of Mary, John reveals that there were others with Mary.

2. Number of angels

The area which has generated the most discussion concerns the angels who were at the tomb of Jesus. Matthew and Mark relate that one angel addressed the women, while Luke and John say that two angels were at the tomb. This seems to be a discrepancy, with Matthew and Mark knowing of only one angel while Luke and John speak of two. However, Matthew and Mark do not say that there was only one angel at the tomb, but that one angel spoke to the women.

This does not contradict Luke and John, for Matthew and Mark specify that one angel spoke, but they do not say there was only one angel present or only one angel spoke. Quite possibly, one of the angels served as the spokesman for the two, thus he was emphasized.

3. . Who rolled the stone away

The issue with this question is centrally dealing with whether the stone was rolled away from the tomb when the women arrived. Notice that all but one account are in definite agreement. Mark, Luke, and John all say the stone had been moved when the women arrived. It is only Matthew who reports, or appears to report, that the stone was moved as the women were there. So let’s take a careful reading of the verses in question.


Now after the Sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary came to look at the grave. And behold, a severe earthquake had occurred, for an angel of the Lord descended from heaven and came and rolled away the stone and sat upon it. (Mt. 28:1-2)

The event in verse 2 had already happened before the women arrived. They did not witness the earthquake or the angel rolling the stone. By the time they arrived the tomb, the stone was already rolled away. Matthew is only telling the readers how the stones was rolled away.


4. What happened after they left the tomb.

This is another area where we have a large degree of agreement between the Gospels. To varying degrees, the Gospels each report that the disciples were told. Or at least it was the intent to tell the disciples, which is all Matthew reveals. I will merge my explanation here with another seemingly contradiction which is who among the women saw Jesus.

If we study the accounts carefully, we can make the FF logical conclusion;

Mary Magdalene & the other women travel from Bethany to Jesus’ tomb.

Nearing the tomb, they notice the stone is rolled away. Mary runs to tell Peter and John while the rest of the women continued to the tomb.

With no corpse, empty tomb and encounter with strange men; the other women were initially shocked and took time for them to recover from these extraordinary encounter, until they got over their shock they told nobody.

Mary Magdalene returns to Jesus’ tomb with Peter and John.

Peter and John return to the house after seeing the empty tomb. Mary stays behind where she sees Jesus.

Afterwards, the other women returned to Bethany, stopping first in the city to report their findings to Clopas and other disciples. Thereafter, Jesus appears to the other women as they’re headed back to Bethany.

Another popular contradiction bible critics love to raise is the time the women visited the tomb which I will explain here.

All accounts indicate that it was early on the first day of the week. Matthew says it was as the day began to dawn. Mark, Luke and John all say “early”. The difficulty comes when we see John say that it was still dark, yet Mark say that the sun had risen.
Sunrise could vary in appearance depending on subjective observation. What is dark to some could be cloudy to another.
So these terms in reference to the same approximate time of day are not mutually exclusive.

Moreover, another explanation could be where the women journeyed from.
Earlier in the week some of the disciples lodged at Bethany, two miles from Jerusalem. It’s possible that the women were staying there for the Sabbath, and when John says it was “still dark”, he’s referring to the time they left Bethany and “went to the tomb”.
That’s more than enough time to go from “still dark” (Jn. 20:1) to “when the sun had risen” (Mk. 16:2).

While these explanations may be unsatisfactory to the skeptic, they are at the very least reasonable explanations to this apparent discrepancy and an open and honest mind will feel reassured about the consistent account in the bible.

SIRTee15:


I've gone thru the different resurrection accounts in the 4 gospel and the there's actually no contradiction at all.
In fact the different stories complement each other and when merged together the resurrection events makes logical sense

U raised 3 salient points which I will address.
1. The number of women or people who visited the tomb
2. Number of angels
3. Who rolled the stone away
4. What happened after they left the tomb.


1. How many women visited the Tomb?

The important thing to note here is that none of the gospel writers said 'only' a particular number visited the tomb. They simply mentioned names of women they knew that visited the tomb.
actual logical contradiction requires exclusionary clauses such as “only x, y, and z were there and no one else” or “only three people witnessed incident a.” None of the Gospel texts do that here; hence, no demonstrable contradiction exists (see Matthew 28:1; Mark 16:1; Luke 24:1-10; John 20:1).

Gospel of John seemingly makes it like only Mary Magdalene visited the tomb until we get to John 20:2. Mary finds the tomb empty, runs to Peter and (presumably) John, and says the following, “They have taken away the Lord out of the tomb, and WE do not know where they have laid Him.”

In reporting the words of Mary, John reveals that there were others with Mary.

2. Number of angels

The area which has generated the most discussion concerns the angels who were at the tomb of Jesus. Matthew and Mark relate that one angel addressed the women, while Luke and John say that two angels were at the tomb. This seems to be a discrepancy, with Matthew and Mark knowing of only one angel while Luke and John speak of two. However, Matthew and Mark do not say that there was only one angel at the tomb, but that one angel spoke to the women.

This does not contradict Luke and John, for Matthew and Mark specify that one angel spoke, but they do not say there was only one angel present or only one angel spoke. Quite possibly, one of the angels served as the spokesman for the two, thus he was emphasized.

3. . Who rolled the stone away

The issue with this question is centrally dealing with whether the stone was rolled away from the tomb when the women arrived. Notice that all but one account are in definite agreement. Mark, Luke, and John all say the stone had been moved when the women arrived. It is only Matthew who reports, or appears to report, that the stone was moved as the women were there. So let’s take a careful reading of the verses in question.


Now after the Sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary came to look at the grave. And behold, a severe earthquake had occurred, for an angel of the Lord descended from heaven and came and rolled away the stone and sat upon it. (Mt. 28:1-2)

The event in verse 2 had already happened before the women arrived. They did not witness the earthquake or the angel rolling the stone. By the time they arrived the tomb, the stone was already rolled away. Matthew is only telling the readers how the stones was rolled away.


4. What happened after they left the tomb.

This is another area where we have a large degree of agreement between the Gospels. To varying degrees, the Gospels each report that the disciples were told. Or at least it was the intent to tell the disciples, which is all Matthew reveals. I will merge my explanation here with another seemingly contradiction which is who among the women saw Jesus.

If we study the accounts carefully, we can make the FF logical conclusion;

Mary Magdalene & the other women travel from Bethany to Jesus’ tomb.

Nearing the tomb, they notice the stone is rolled away. Mary runs to tell Peter and John while the rest of the women continued to the tomb.

With no corpse, empty tomb and encounter with strange men; the other women were initially shocked and took time for them to recover from these extraordinary encounter, until they got over their shock they told nobody.

Mary Magdalene returns to Jesus’ tomb with Peter and John.

Peter and John return to the house after seeing the empty tomb. Mary stays behind where she sees Jesus.

Afterwards, the other women returned to Bethany, stopping first in the city to report their findings to Clopas and other disciples. Thereafter, Jesus appears to the other women as they’re headed back to Bethany.

Another popular contradiction bible critics love to raise is the time the women visited the tomb which I will explain here.

All accounts indicate that it was early on the first day of the week. Matthew says it was as the day began to dawn. Mark, Luke and John all say “early”. The difficulty comes when we see John say that it was still dark, yet Mark say that the sun had risen.
Sunrise could vary in appearance depending on subjective observation. What is dark to some could be cloudy to another.
So these terms in reference to the same approximate time of day are not mutually exclusive.

Moreover, another explanation could be where the women journeyed from.
Earlier in the week some of the disciples lodged at Bethany, two miles from Jerusalem. It’s possible that the women were staying there for the Sabbath, and when John says it was “still dark”, he’s referring to the time they left Bethany and “went to the tomb”.
That’s more than enough time to go from “still dark” (Jn. 20:1) to “when the sun had risen” (Mk. 16:2).

While these explanations may be unsatisfactory to the skeptic, they are at the very least reasonable explanations to this apparent discrepancy and an open and honest mind will feel reassured about the consistent account in the bible.

You in your heart know that this your explanation is not realistic especially the one about what Mark says the women did after discovering the missing body and what the other gospels say.
These are simply matters of comprehension. You however have left that and started trying to explain what you BELIEVED happened, thus adding your own ideas and beliefs to what you think happened. Christians/believers must always remember Revelation 22 v18 whenever we try to interpret the holy book please 🙏.


Here is what Mark says happened after the women found the body gone from the tomb. Mark 16 v8.

In reporting the same event here is a different gospel. John 18. V1-6

And here is another account of the same issue. Mathew 28 v5-10

And here is another different account in Luke 24 v 4-10

I have quoted the books,chapters and verses so that everyone interested can look it up in your individual Bibles for reference.

TheMadame:



You in your heart know that this your explanation is not realistic especially the one about what Mark says the women did after discovering the missing body and what the other gospels say.
These are simply matters of comprehension. You however have left that and started trying to explain what you BELIEVED happened, thus adding your own ideas and beliefs to what you think happened. Christians/believers must always remember Revelation 22 v18 whenever we try to interpret the holy book please 🙏.


Here is what Mark says happened after the women found the body gone from the tomb. Mark 16 v8.

I think I already addressed this issue. Haven't I?
Are u actually looking for answers or u looking for faults in the bible at all cost. What exactly is your point.
U raised 4 contradictions, I added 2; using the scriptures I explained them all logically.
But u remain obstinate holding on to a straw as an excuse to reject the resurrection claim.
It's like u simply pursuing the letter and not the spirit.

Are u a critic or a Christian seeking answers.
Apparently all other ones made sense to u but wants to hold on to one seemingly contradiction.
If all other could be explained, what gives u the idea that the issue of bewildered women remain a contradiction.

I have seen people who became numb and couldn't talk after experiencing a traumatic situation.
I don't think seeing an angel, an unexpected empty tomb and being told a dead person being alive is a simple story. It's enough to give someone PTSD.

The best explanation is that the women initially said nothing- Mark 16: 8 and then later told the disciples what they saw (Matthew 28:8; Luke 24:9). It would make sense that they were frightened and didn’t know what to do or say. But then later, of course, they spoke up. It's simple logic.

If u are a bible critic pretending to be a Christian, I will advise u read up on chronology of resurrection, u may find your answers there.

TheMadame:
I have quoted the books,chapters and verses so that everyone interested can look it up in your individual Bibles for reference.

We have all seen this before and you know it and you know that you are not the first but your insistence tells me that you have an evil to serve.

The evil you do serve is the evil that you will eat.

TheMadame:
In reporting the same event here is a different gospel. John 18. V1-6

Let me ask u a simple question. According to John's account, did Mary Magdalene visit the tomb alone?

I'm sure u will never be able to answer the question honestly.

Dtruthspeaker:


We have all seen this before and you know it and you know that you are not the first but your insistence tells me that you have an evil to serve.

The evil you do serve is the evil that you will eat.

I thought she was a honest person seeking answers. I never knew I spent my precious time on a cynic.
Even when u produce irrefutable evidence, they will deny the truth.

I've asked her a simple question on the John resurrection account. She will never answer that question.

SIRTee15:


I think I already addressed this issue. Haven't I?
Are u actually looking for answers or u looking for faults in the bible at all cost. What exactly is your point..

You know she is trying to insult God, no need to shy away from the Truth

SIRTee15:


I thought she was a honest person seeking answers. I never knew I spent my precious time on a cynic.
Even when u produce irrefutable evidence, they will deny the truth.

I've asked her a simple question on the John resurrection account. She will never answer that question.

I saw. Rarely are questions here ever bonafide.

TheMadame:
And here is another different account in Luke 24 v 4-10

It's obvious u are a cynic. U should have come out straight as a bible critic rather than all these pretense. Then we would have gone straight to logic to destroy your argument..whatever it is.

Now I have asked u a simple question regarding John's resurrection account. Be bold enough to answer it.

MaxInDHouse:

So you follow them as their kettle resemble your own!

no, I belong to the billions of people obeying the torah and going about their daily lives without being members of a cult..

SIRTee15:


I think I already addressed this issue. Haven't I?
Are u actually looking for answers or u looking for faults in the bible at all cost. What exactly is your point.
U raised 4 contradictions, I added 2; using the scriptures I explained them all logically.
But u remain obstinate holding on to a straw as an excuse to reject the resurrection claim.
It's like u simply pursuing the letter and not the spirit.

Are u a critic or a Christian seeking answers.
Apparently all other ones made sense to u but wants to hold on to one seemingly contradiction.
If all other could be explained, what gives u the idea that the issue of bewildered women remain a contradiction.

I have seen people who became numb and couldn't talk after experiencing a traumatic situation.
I don't think seeing an angel, an unexpected empty tomb and being told a dead person being alive is a simple story. It's enough to give someone PTSD.

The best explanation is that the women initially said nothing- Mark 16: 8 and then later told the disciples what they saw (Matthew 28:8; Luke 24:9). It would make sense that they were frightened and didn’t know what to do or say. But then later, of course, they spoke up. It's simple logic.

If u are a bible critic pretending to be a Christian, I will advise u read up on chronology of resurrection, u may find your answers there.

Why are Christians always like this? Once you question their perceived beliefs you are automatically-
1. A bible critic pretending to be a Christian.
2. An unbeliever.
3. Not a proper Christian.
4.
To read your Bible and pray for understanding from the Holy spirit.


I have seen it all and your verbosity and assumptions can not change my own ideology of how to be a Christian believer. I am simply telling you that I am not convinced in what you are trying to tell me.
There are contradiction in the resurrection stories in the four canonical gospels . You don't have to accept what I saying neither do you need to force/spoon feed my with your own ideology.
On a final note I wish to advise our Christian brothers and sisters to stop trying to twist Bible passages into your own assumed meanings. Do not add and do not subtract. Revelation chapter 22 verse 18 is an adequate warning.
Good day.