[flash=400,300]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_KyA-N_q94&feature=youtube_gdata_player[/flash]

NO! I carry His presence already!

Of course God is with us always. However, unless the fellow went on to make appropriate qualifications, the message is misguided, conceited and can mislead people who are not well informed biblically.

Wiser people will pay attention and consider very carefully several prayers in the New Testament epistles including the following:

2 Thessalonians 3:16

Now may the Lord of peace himself give you peace at all times and in every way. The Lord be with all of you.

Romans 15:33

31Pray that I may be rescued from the unbelievers in Judea and that my service in Jerusalem may be acceptable to the saints there, 32so that by God’s will* I may come to you with joy and together with you be refreshed. 33The God of peace be with you all. Amen.

* The same fellow and others also do the false teaching that people should not pray in/for God's will or "thy will be done"!


2 Timothy 4:22

The Lord be with your spirit. Grace be with you.

Galatians 6:18

The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit, brothers. Amen.

Romans 4:23

The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit. Amen.

Philemon 1:25

The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit.

In addition, one of the reasons to beware of this kind of message that is ultimately a false message unless it is adequately qualified is that it is quite appropriate to remind oneself and others in prayer that "God will be with you". For example we see prayers in the New Testament "God will be with you" which this particular fellow somewhat indirectly disparages slightly. Compare for example:

Phillipians 4:9

Whatever you have learned or received or heard from me, or seen in me--put it into practice. And the God of peace will be with you.

2 Corinthians 13:11

Finally, brothers, good-by. Aim for perfection, listen to my appeal, be of one mind, live in peace. And the God of love and peace will be with you.

^^^
those utterances of grace on other people. I can say God bless you. But I won't pray God to bless me.

Have you found paul praying for God to be with him?

You and your man say people should not pray "God be with you" or "God will be with you"; my two posts have already shown you people to be misguided and even wrong.

OK then: take the first three scriptures I gave in my first post, interprete them and then compare with your boss' teaching.

Enigma:

You and your man say people should not pray "God be with you"

Don't twist this. There is difference between "with me" and "with you" . I cant ask God to be with me because he is always with me.
But when a superior pronouce be with you, it's a grace he is imparting. A manifestation. But you won't find him asking God to be with him. If you ever find Paul asking God to be with him then you have a point .

You see your problem now?

What is the title of the thread?

In any event, whether it is "God be with you" or "God be with me", they are both perfectly legitimate prayers for a Christian.

I am happy to agree though that they may not be good prayers for a Chrisian i.e. a follower of Chris Oyakhilome or a supporter of Chris Embassy.

Enigma Enigma
Try and understand now
When a man accepts Jesus Christ, automatically, Christ comes to dwell in him

1 John 4:13
Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.

Now if Christ dwells in him, he carries Christ on the inside
So if you carry Christ on the inside, you don't need to invite Him to be with you
He is always with you
He goes everywhere you go so you can't pray for Him to be with you

^^ OK --- but don't you think there is a reason why Paul should pray "God be with you" for other Christians ? In fact, even for Timothy - a whole 'pastor' as you people like to point out?

Try and think of one or two reasons why Paul might have made such a prayer.

Praying that He be with you does nothing but help YOUR OWN faith, because He is always with you (if you are walking aright).

Emmanuel is God with is but the ultimate it God in us that is the indwelling presence of the almighty tangibly manifested by the Holy Spirit of whom Jesus said John 14:16 "And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever" This statement as at the time it was being said by Jesus Christ was a promissory note but in Acts 2 on the day Pentecost it became a reality as the devotees were gathered together at the upper room.

The Holy Spirit in here now and He is God with us now, He is the presence of the Father. The point is as Christians we already have an assurance of the presence of God if all there should be any form of prayer we only pray in the light of re-affirming our awareness of the tangibility of that presence otherwise it is not necessary

Enigma:

^^ OK --- but don't you think there is a reason why Paul should pray "God be with you" for other Christians ? In fact, even for Timothy - a whole 'pastor' as you people like to point out?

Try and think of one or two reasons why Paul might have made such a prayer.

That was an utterance Paul made, an utterance of the grace of God to abound on somebody
I can tell a Christian " God's presence be with you' but that does not mean the presence of the Lord will come upon him because of my utterance.
For a Christian, with or without my utterance, God's presence rests with that person

When people ask God to be with them they are talking in terms of feeling of assurance of his presence. But that's of the flesh . If the word of God says he is with you always and  beyond that ,he is in you. Why would you be praying for God to be with you. It means you can't take his word for what it says. The prayer is fleshly and babyish.

No new testament minister prayed to God like that.

John 14:16-17
16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17 [Even] the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

This scripture let us know that God is already with the christian that have received the holy spirit (and every Christian should receive the holy spirit), so we don't need to pray for God to be with us again, seen that he is already with us

Ehimarelaw:

John 14:16-17
16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17 [Even] the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

This scripture let us know that God is already with the christian that have received the holy spirit (and every Christian should receive the holy spirit), so we don't need to pray for God to be with us again, seen that he is already with us

Precisely right, not so hard to understand

@ joagbaje

Joagbaje:

^^^
those utterances of grace on other people. I can say God bless you. But I won't pray God to bless me.

Have you found paul praying for God to be with him?

can you not see this?
The Lord be with your spirit. Grace be with you.

there are two statements in that sentence. the second is the 'utterance of grace'. God is omnipresent, very correct. but he doesn't manifest his presence everywhere. that is the point of the prayer.

and i don't even know why praying to GOd to be with you should be an issue
It's not like He's complaining,

John 14:17 Even the spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him, for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
These are the words of the Master Himself, so praying for God to be with you is lack of faith in the words of the Master.

Knight1:

@ joagbaje
can you not see this?
The Lord be with your spirit. Grace be with you.

there are two statements in that sentence. the second is the 'utterance of grace'. God is omnipresent, very correct. but he doesn't manifest his presence everywhere. that is the point of the prayer.

and i don't even know why praying to GOd to be with you should be an issue
It's not like He's complaining,

Their problem is conceit and lack of depth of understanding --- quite ironic, considering they keep going on about 'milk' and 'strong meat'.

Notice they cannot provide any sensible explanation why Paul would pray "God be with you" for other Christians and for Timothy --- a whole 'pastor'.

Or maybe Paul was not aware of the words of Jesus? Or maybe those other Christians and even Timothy the 'pastor' did not have the Holy Spirit is why Paul kept praying on several occasions "God be with you". Mind you if our friends insist on a distinction between "God be with me" and "God be with you" then any time someone prays "God be with you" to them they should reject it; they should tell Oyakhilome that if anyone prays "God be with you" for him, he should reject it --- since he would not say the same for himself. Anyway, since I'm not sure he really believes in God I won't be surprised if he rejects it.

The question on whether "it is right to pray for God to be with you" is not a question that has one direction answer.If the question is:is it right for a Christian to pray for God to be with him or her?. The answer would have been,"it is wrong."
But a man that is not born again is not a Christian, he is the only one that can pray that kind of prayer.
Our understanding of two basic things which I am going to explain, will help us know how to answer this question.
There is a clear difference between a"statement of fact" and a "promise". A statement of fact is a sovereign declaration of Almighty God concerning the Christian(new creation).They are never in the future.They are either in the present or in the past.While a promise is in the future.In the Old Testament, they were to pray like that because God's presence was a promise to them.Exodus3v11-12:And Moses said unto God,that who am I,that I should go unto Pharaoh, and that I should bring forth the children of Israel out of Egypt?And he(God) said, certainly I will be with thee,
But for us in New Testament,God's presence is not a promise but a statement of fact, a present hour reality;Let see in Mat28v20:, ló, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world.
1cor3v16;know ye not that ye are the temple of God,and that the spirit of God dwelleth in you?:The Christian is clean enough for God to live in, He is the carrier of God.

Joagbaje:


When people ask God to be with them they are talking in terms of feeling of assurance of his presence. But that's of the flesh .

If the word of God says he is with you always and  beyond that, he is in you.

Why would you be praying for God to be with you. It means you can't take his word for what it says. The prayer is fleshly and babyish.

No new testament minister prayed to God like that.

^

So whats the big deal about flesh

when the flesh is weak doesnt the Spirit counter it

"My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass away from me. Yet, not as I will, but as you will." Matthew 26:39

He went away again the second time, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if this cup may not pass away from me, except I drink it, thy will be done - Matthew 26:42

Guess to your understanding Jesus was babyish here, hmm?

@ OP

Jesus was being approached by one of his disciples with a request to teach them to pray as John taught his disciples.

The prayer he taught them as it occurs in Matthew 6:9–13

"Our Father in heaven,
hallowed be your name.
Your kingdom come,
your will be done,
on earth as it is in heaven.
Give us this day our daily bread,
and forgive us our debts,
as we also have forgiven our debtors.
And lead us not into temptation,
but deliver us from evil."

^^^^

1. Jesus only gave an outline as a guide. He didn't give them a prayer to memorise.
2. Secondly,the holy spirit hadn't come .

John 16:13
13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: . . , and he will shew you things to come.

Right now we christians pray by the spirit and not religious programmed recitation.

Ephesians 6:18
18 Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;

Romans 8:26
26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

Joagbaje:

Don't twist this. There is difference between "with me" and "with you" . I cant ask God to be with me because he is always with me.
But when a superior pronouce be with you, it's a grace he is imparting. A manifestation. But you won't find him asking God to be with him. If you ever find Paul asking God to be with him then you have a point .

Your explanation is not satisfactory. The reason you don’t pray ‘God be with me’ is because God is with you. Then you go ahead to pray the same prayer for another Christian, whom God is also with. Does that make sense to you? Same thing with ‘God bless me.’ If every christian is blessed, why pray that the christian be blessed when you won’t say the same prayer for yourself? And you have not responded to the point about why Paul would pray that God be with Timothy. Are you bigger than Timothy and is the God with you different from the one with Timothy?

At the end of the day, it is possible you’re right. But it won’t be because of the explanations you provided. Because they simply do not make sense or add up.

Enigma:

Their problem is conceit and lack of depth of understanding --- quite ironic, considering they keep going on about 'milk' and 'strong meat'.

Notice they cannot provide any sensible explanation why Paul would pray "God be with you" for other Christians and for Timothy --- a whole 'pastor'.

Or maybe Paul was not aware of the words of Jesus? Or maybe those other Christians and even Timothy the 'pastor' did not have the Holy Spirit is why Paul kept praying on several occasions "God be with you". Mind you if our friends insist on a distinction between "God be with me" and "God be with you" then any time someone prays "God be with you" to them they should reject it; they should tell Oyakhilome that if anyone prays "God be with you" for him, he should reject it --- since he would not say the same for himself. Anyway, since I'm not sure he really believes in God I won't be surprised if he rejects it.

Knight1 link=topic=788242.msg9427522#msg9427522 date=1319703236:

@ joagbaje
can you not see this?
The Lord be with your spirit. Grace be with you.

there are two statements in that sentence. the second is the 'utterance of grace'. God is omnipresent, very correct. but he doesn't manifest his presence everywhere. that is the point of the prayer.

and i don't even know why praying to GOd to be with you should be an issue
It's not like He's complaining,

You seem to have a better handle on this. It appears it's more about manifestation than literal presence. It's like Jesus saying that where 2 or more are gathered, He's there. Yet, He's always there, even when they're not gathered and even when they're alone. I'm beginning to see that part of the reason we have endless and meaniningless controversies in christianity is that as christians we have not fully figured out when to take the words in the Bible literally and when not to.

We are blessed by automatically becoming Christians.

"All praise to God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly realms because we are united with Christ." - Ephesians 1:3

nlMediator:

Your explanation is not satisfactory. The reason you don’t pray ‘God be with me’ is because God is with you. Then you go ahead to pray the same prayer for another Christian, whom God is also with. Does that make sense to you? Same thing with ‘God bless me.’ If every christian is blessed, why pray that the christian be blessed when you won’t say the same prayer for yourself? And you have not responded to the point about why Paul would pray that God be with Timothy. Are you bigger than Timothy and is the God with you different from the one with Timothy?

At least there's no place where paul is asking for God to be with him. Which many Christians are doing today. That is the error being addressed. You know Enigma like to use his lawyer skill to confuse simple posts. I understand what he does very well. The message is very clear and simple. Firstly look at the context of the video. It's to help Christians pray more maturely.  It is immature for us to be asking God to give us what he said he had done. I will come to paul and timothy matter o. If God says I am healed , I shouldn't say "come and heal me". If God says I'm blessed I shouldn't say "come and bless me. If God says "I am with you" I shouldn't say come and be with me. It's a prayer of unbelief.

When it comes to our personal issues and things that has to do with Satan. We don't need to ask or beg God. We lay hold by faith. For example I can't ask God to come and cast a devil away. It is in my power to exercise authority because,these are based on the finished works of christ. I posses my possession by faith. I don't have to call om God for what he has done.

But as I said earlier , a minister who is higher can blessed someone under his authority.

A "greater " can pronounce blessing on the lesser but not the other way round. I will try and get the scripture on that Timothy wont make such pronouncement on paul.  A higher person in authority can make certain pronouncement on people under his authority. Sometimes by the spirit other time just out of courtesy.

I don't really want to enter into the content of what said to Timothy ,does it mean God will now follow Timothy because of paul pronouncement? .if you understand my write-up above you will see that it's based on a principle . Its a prouncement of blessing. Not that God should "follow" Timothy. It's a pronoucement of Grace.  And he wasn't praying to God. If I say "God bless you" or "you're blessed" it's not a prayer to God. I really didn't want to enter this because it will require explanations of the principles especially to those who don't believe in leadership offices in christs body.

So the thread is about the religious prayer to God some do. Which can't get result in the new testament. "God pls be with me" "God pls hear my prayer" etc. But a minister can pronounce words by the authority and anointing. That's why a minister can tell someone "be healed!" even though "by his stripe he was healed" but that is different from someone saying "God pls come and heal me" "god pls take this devil away" The body of christ can't mature by those kin gds of prayers
t

Joagbaje:

At least there's no place where paul is asking for God to be with him. Which many Christians are doing today. That is the error being addressed. You know Enigma like to use his lawyer skill to confuse simple posts. I understand what he does very well. The message is very clear and simple. Firstly look at the context of the video. It's to help Christians pray more maturely.  It is immature for us to be asking God to give us what he said he had done. I will come to paul and timothy matter o. If God says I am healed , I shouldn't say "come and heal me". If God says I'm blessed I shouldn't say "come and bless me. If God says "I am with you" I shouldn't say come and be with me. It's a prayer of unbelief.

When it comes to our personal issues and things that has to do with Satan. We don't need to ask or beg God. We lay hold by faith. For example I can't ask God to come and cast a devil away. It is in my power to exercise authority because,these are based on the finished works of christ. I posses my possession by faith. I don't have to call om God for what he has done.

But as I said earlier , a minister who is higher can blessed someone under his authority.

A "greater " can pronounce blessing on the lesser but not the other way round. I will try and get the scripture on that Timothy wont make such pronouncement on paul.  A higher person in authority can make certain pronouncement on people under his authority. Sometimes by the spirit other time just out of courtesy.

I don't really want to enter into the content of what said to Timothy ,does it mean God will now follow Timothy because of paul pronouncement? .if you understand my write-up above you will see that it's based on a principle . Its a prouncement of blessing. Not that God should "follow" Timothy. It's a pronoucement of Grace.  And he wasn't praying to God. If I say "God bless you" or "you're blessed" it's not a prayer to God. I really didn't want to enter this because it will require explanations of the principles especially to those who don't believe in leadership offices in christs body.

1. what is the purpose of mature prayer please? speedier answer or it keeps God happy or what?
2. if you are healed, why do christians still fall ill? have headache etc. It means the provision for you healing has been made.
3. what makes the 'greater' is not necessarily   because of the 'height' he has attained alone, the blessing makes you a 'greater' too. that someone gives me something sufficiently makes him a greater. _{i make this point very carefully so as not to be misconstrued} consider Heb 7 pls
4.God bless you is a prayer to whom then?
5. i think you might need to define the term 'blessing' because in ALL of Paul's letters he blesses the recipients of those letters in one way or the other. And I am sure that it wasn't in Paul's power to make those blessings come to pass!

Knight1:

1. what is the purpose of mature prayer please? speedier answer or it keeps God happy or what?

As a man grows , his language has to change if not, he won't receive .

2. if you are healed, why do christians still fall ill? have headache etc. It means the provision for you healing has been made.

Theres a legal aspect and the vital aspect of our salvation . The legal aspect is what what christ has done and purchased on our behalf. The vital aspect is our awareness and faith and possession . Yes provision has been made for everything,

1 Corinthians 3:21
21 Therefore let no man glory in men. For all things are yours;

3. what makes the 'greater' is not necessarily   because of the 'height' he has attained alone, the blessing makes you a 'greater' too. that someone gives me something sufficiently makes him a greater. _{i make this point very carefully so as not to be misconstrued} consider Heb 7 pls

I'm not talking about being greater in heaven or before God. I'm talking in terms of being greater in authority by the virtue of office. God says to submit to those who are above us. He call them rulers in the body of christ.

4.God bless you is a prayer to whom then?

It's a pronouncement of grace. If I say "BE HEALED!" is it a prayer to God? The Jews greet "shalom" it's not a prayer to God . But it's supposed to be a spiritual greeting and blessing

5. i think you might need to define the term 'blessing' because in ALL of Paul's letters he blesses the recipients of those letters in one way or the other. And I am sure that it wasn't in Paul's power to make those blessings come to pass!

It's a general term we use which connotes several things. Sometimes we often use it religiously. Or as greeting.

Joagbaje:

At least there's no place where paul is asking for God to be with him. Which many Christians are doing today. That is the error being addressed. You know Enigma like to use his lawyer skill to confuse simple posts. I understand what he does very well. The message is very clear and simple. Firstly look at the context of the video. It's to help Christians pray more maturely. It is immature for us to be asking God to give us what he said he had done. I will come to paul and timothy matter o. If God says I am healed , I shouldn't say "come and heal me". If God says I'm blessed I shouldn't say "come and bless me. If God says "I am with you" I shouldn't say come and be with me. It's a prayer of unbelief.

When it comes to our personal issues and things that has to do with Satan. We don't need to ask or beg God. We lay hold by faith. For example I can't ask God to come and cast a devil away. It is in my power to exercise authority because,these are based on the finished works of christ. I posses my possession by faith. I don't have to call om God for what he has done.

But as I said earlier , a minister who is higher can blessed someone under his authority.

A "greater " can pronounce blessing on the lesser but not the other way round. I will try and get the scripture on that Timothy wont make such pronouncement on paul. A higher person in authority can make certain pronouncement on people under his authority. Sometimes by the spirit other time just out of courtesy.

I don't really want to enter into the content of what said to Timothy ,does it mean God will now follow Timothy because of paul pronouncement? .if you understand my write-up above you will see that it's based on a principle . Its a prouncement of blessing. Not that God should "follow" Timothy. It's a pronoucement of Grace. And he wasn't praying to God. If I say "God bless you" or "you're blessed" it's not a prayer to God. I really didn't want to enter this because it will require explanations of the principles especially to those who don't believe in leadership offices in christs body.

So the thread is about the religious prayer to God some do. Which can't get result in the new testament. "God pls be with me" "God pls hear my prayer" etc. But a minister can pronounce words by the authority and anointing. That's why a minister can tell someone "be healed!" even though "by his stripe he was healed" but that is different from someone saying "God pls come and heal me" "god pls take this devil away" The body of christ can't mature by those kin gds of prayers
t

I believe in leadership in the church. But I see it as service. You also see it as service. But we diverge when you support a system that creates 2 classes of Christians – a royalty of leaders and a congregation of commoners. The Bible makes no such distinction. In any case, you can share your knowledge to educate other people here, not just the person you’re responding to or the people that share your beliefs in every single thing.
The demon analogy is not applicable here. 2 christians are facing a demon problem. The one who knows his rights does not call upon God but commands the devil to cease and leave. The other begs God for mercy. But that’s not the same situation with blessing or God’s presence. 2 christians are blessed. One knows it and does not pray God bless me. But he also says ‘God bless you’ to the one he knows is blessed. What is the purpose of the declaration? The person is already blessed. It’s like God told me that he has given me 100% in my physics exam. Then, you declare over me: “God give you success” or even “God give you 100%”. What is the declaration adding to the 100% I have?

Same thing with God’s presence. Since you already admit that saying “God be with you” will not make God be with the person since God is already with the person, you have to explain why the declaration by a superior is useful. I can understand if you’re declaring blessing or divine presence over somebody who doesn’t have it. But here you already know the person has it. So, it is either pointless or there is a purpose for it.
And I agree that there’s a purpose. Not just what you claim it is – pronouncement – unless you can show the relevance of the pronouncement.
Finally, the fact that Paul may not have prayed it for himself is not dispositive. He also did not give himself instructions on getting married, but gave to others. It does not make us insist on being like Paul in that area and ignoring his words on that topic. Instead we take his words as the Word of God. Besides, one could also argue that when Paul was asking for prayer that utterance be given to him in Eph. 6.19, it is functionally equivalent to asking that God be with you in that situation. Which tallies with the comment earlier made by someone here that it is about ‘manifestation’ not literal presence.

Joagbaje:

As a man grows , his language has to change if not, he won't receive .

Theres a legal aspect and the vital aspect of our salvation . The legal aspect is what what christ has done and purchased on our behalf. The vital aspect is our awareness and faith and possession . Yes provision has been made for everything,

1 Corinthians 3:21
21 Therefore let no man glory in men. For all things are yours;

I'm not talking about being greater in heaven or before God. I'm talking in terms of being greater in authority by the virtue of office. God says to submit to those who are above us. He call them rulers in the body of christ.

It's a pronouncement of grace. If I say "BE HEALED!" is it a prayer to God? The Jews greet "shalom" it's not a prayer to God . But it's supposed to be a spiritual greeting and blessing

It's a general term we use which connotes several things. Sometimes we often use it religiously. Or as greeting.

"Shalom", "God bless you", "be healed" are all declarations. They're a kind of prayer. The declarant expects that his delcaration will come to pass because God has set the necessary order for its manifestation. That is, it is an indirect prayer, as opposed to the direct prayers we are more accustomed to. When Jesus spoke in Mark 11.23 about speaking to a mountain and seeing it removed - similar to 'be healed' - He was speaking in the context of prayer, as the next verse makes clear.

nlMediator:

"Shalom", "God bless you", "be healed" are all declarations. They're a kind of prayer. The declarant expects that his delcaration will come to pass because God has set the necessary order for its manifestation. That is, it is an indirect prayer, as opposed to the direct prayers we are more accustomed to. When Jesus spoke in Mark 11.23 about speaking to a mountain and seeing it removed - similar to 'be healed' - He was speaking in the context of prayer, as the next verse makes clear.

Ok I agree they are prayers . But they are not prayer to God. I can pray for a man and bless . As you said " just like speaking to the tree. But it is not a prayer to God.

I'm not sure I have made a comment on the NL Religion section before but I think I am constrained to do this because of this post.

Ordinarily, I do not subscribe to the frequesnt pastor bashing that goes on here by other Christians even to the point using very crude language. However, I believe that this question posed by Joagbaje goes to show the kind of focus of near meaningless themes preached in Christ Embassy.

Sometimes I listen to Pastor Chris and I am like "this man has a good heart for the things of God" but [b]most times I just wonder if it isn't better for Pastor Chris not to preach on a particular Sunday if he has nothing concrete to preach about.[/b]To the subject at hand, what kind of spiritually meaningless and arguement-provoking question is "Is it right to pray for God to be with you?"

Someone else has rightly shown when Paul prayed this prayer even for Timothy. But JOagbaje tells us that it doesn't count because Paul didn't pray it for himself. Which kind of indoctrination makes a supposed mature man abandon his independent ability to think and support everything his pastor says?

It is this blind support and belief that Pastor Chris can NEVER be wrong because he is all-knowing that makes it hard for me to relate well with CEC fanatics.