LagosShia:

Mind your business.I'm not sure of what you're referring to as "hypocritical".take your islamophobia elsewhere.I know its unfortunate the wahhabi freak derailing the thread and his intolerance and misbehaviour is allowing miserable followers of blindness make reckless comment.but I'd ask you politely to respect yourself and take your islamophobia and christian zealotry elsewhere.thanks.

Paris-Love:
Yes sir!
Sorry for the intrusion sir. oh! About the 'hypocrisy' thing it's just that Ali was forbidden from marrying any other women as long as he was married to Fatima, Muhammad's daughter. Muhammad did not want to see his daughter hurt or jealous over the possibility that by taking
another wife, Ali might not have given Fatima the same kind of love and attention. Hence, it was okay for Muhammad to show more affection to one wife or to have more wives, but not
okay for his son-in-law to do likewise!
Where should we place this on the scale
between consistency and hypocrisy?

And sir there's nothing like islamophobia. Just words coined by muslims to make those who disagree with islam look bad. What shall we call those people that curse others in their 5 times daily supplication? humanityphobia?

Once again am so sorry for interrupting this wonderful in-house 'peaceful' discussion. Thanks

vedaxcool: “…and be not amongst those who join gods with Allah, those who split up their Religion, and become shias (sects) - each party rejoicing in that which is with itself.” (Quran, 30:31-32)

In the Nahjul Balagha, one of the most revered books of the Shia, Ali (رضّى الله عنه) said in Sermon 126:

“With regard to me, two categories of people will be ruined, namely he who loves me too much and the love takes him away from rightfulness, and he who hates me too much and the hatred takes him away from rightfulness. The best man with regard to me is he who is on the middle course. So be with him and be with the great majority of Muslims because Allah’s hand of protection is on keeping unity. You should beware of division because the one isolated from the group is a prey to Satan just as the one isolated from the flock of sheep is a prey to the wolf. Beware! Whoever calls to this course [of sectarianism], kill him, even though he may be under this headband of mine.”

ghazzal: is this discussion still on!
@LAgos Shia
since you posted that Q33:33 was refering to "people of the house" including Ali excluding wives of the prophet, i lost interest. though some part of the Quran may need explanation, this is just very clear reading from earlir verses.
note that besides the Quran, and authentic hadiths, every other opinion is intuition and logic. so we listen to our leaders and think over the information. no one will bear the burden of the other.

vedaxcool: Nahjul Balagha, Sermon 191

Ali says to his Shia:

“You should know that you have again reverted to the position of the [pagan] Bedouin Arabs after immigration to Islam, and have become different Shias after having been once united. You do not possess anything of Islam except its name, and know nothing of belief save its show. You would throw down Islam on its face in order to defame its honor and break its pledge for brotherhood which Allah gave you as a sacred trust on His earth and a source of peace among the people. Be sure that if you incline towards anything other than Islam. the unbelievers will fight you. Then there will be neither Gabriel nor Michael, neither Muhajirun nor Ansar to help you, but only the clashing of swords, till Allah settles the matter for you…You have broken the shackles of Islam, have transgressed its limits, and have destroyed its commands!”

This happen to be one of my favourite quotes from Nahjul Balagha

LagosShia: Now that aside let me further break it to you in even simpler terms to see the reality of how identical Prophet Muhammad (sa) and Imam Ali (as) are in actions.Prophet Muhammad (sa) married Lady Khadija (as)-the mother of SayyidaFatima-who some say was older than him.for 25 years the Prophet (sa) lived with her and only her.it was only after her death he remarried

his marriages are all for political reasons, to break taboos and for moral reasons and lessons to the muslims.Imam Ali (as) married Sayyida Fatima (as),the Prophet's (sa) daughter and onlyher throughout her life.it was only after the martyrdom of Sayyida Fatima (as) that Imam Ali (as) remarried.

There is no hypocrisy here.and Imam Ali (as) was not been prohibited from taking another wife.

the first thing is the rumor was false and ill-intended.second,the woman the rumor says Imam Ali (as) wanted to marry was the daughterof a chief pagan of arabia and an arch-foe of the holy Prophet (sa)

So please I want you in all honesty and humility if you got any,to now tell us where is the hypocrisy or apologize for drawing a wrong or mistaken conclusion.

LagosShia:

You were given a link to examine the facts on verse 33:33.there's no intuition here or hearsay.the verse has reason for its revelation and place.this is recorded in authentic narrations.and the verse refers to five people in a recorded event (see hadith al-kisa).then the masculine tense used in the verse on purification of the 5 people is different from the feminine tense used for the wives.the verse of purification itself is adjoined to the verse earlier talking about the wives.based on reason,I stated that two enemies of each other who fought themselves cannot both be regarded as sinless.therefore its either both Imam Ali (as) and aisha are sinful or only one is;and for verse 33:33 to be the true word of God,both of them cannot be sinless.the facts are there but as usual Iblis and his followers try to place obstacles in the face of people seeking truth to turn them away into falsehood.you got to be careful.Sunnis are living in denial and fabrications.this thread is evident of their dishonesty and false inventions.

As Imam Ali (as) said:"there is enough light for those who want to see".

ghazzal:

i understand and thanks for the education.
but we need to always remember that comments are peoples(scholars are human too) opinion. i have noticed in tafsir of Quran the use of " we think, believe" it is evident that it is based on the scholars understanding at that time(and the use of "think" is like a dislclaimer from my perspective). only the Quran and authentic hadith(if we can truely identify them) is flawless.
i have read the verse again and my understanding is "...Allah only wishes to remove..." it is not automatic nor was it removed, imagime it was ..."Allah (has) removd..." it could have been that way if God wills. i believe Allah wishes for all of mankind to make heaven but shaitan promised to lead man astray......we see the story of Adam.

Allah knows best. may he increase us in knowledge and guide us aright.

Paris-Love:
Right allow me answer sequentially The fact that he remained faithful to Khadijah was not due to his chastity or loyalty but because she was a powerful
woman and would not have tolerated infidelity from him. At that time Muhammad had no followers and he would have lost everything if he had offended his wealthy
wife. That would have destroyed him completely. And muslims are to follow his example. I don't know how many women will be pleased to know they're not married for whom they are but to score cheap political points. Those women he married for political points are they muslims? if they're not muslims is Allah's words not enough? Does the prophet need to sleep with their women to convince them? Narrated Al-Miswar bin Makhrama:
I heard Allah's Apostle who was on the
pulpit, saying, "Banu Hisham bin Al-
Mughira have requested me to allow
them to marry their daughter to Ali bin
Abu Talib, but I don't give
permission, and will not give
permission unless 'Ali bin Abi Talib
divorces my daughter in order to
marry their daughter, because
Fatima is a part of my body, and I
hate what she hates to see, and
what hurts her, hurts me." (Sahih Al-
Bukhari, Volume 7, Book 62, Number
157) Couldn't our prophet use this opportunity to make things up with the chief pagan? He had married for political reason before why pass uq this chance? Because am still confused because many of prophet Muhammed's wives were daughters of his enemies as well (Abu Sofyan as well as most Jewish tribes).
Was there a real reason for prophet Muhammed to prohibit something while he himself was doing the same thing?
Just clear me on this. Prophet married his enemies daughters before for political reason, why won't he allow his son in law do the same? till then my apology is still processing.

LagosShia:

The reason the Prophet (sa) opposed the marriage was not a prohibition to polygamy and the right of Imam Ali (as) to a second wife if he had wished for that.also before marriage a woman can ask for a monogamy clause in the marriage contract and if the man accepts he cannot take another wife.both monogamy and polygamy are perfectly fine if applied correctly.

The tradition of marrying from the opposing clan or group is to cement reconciliation.however if there is no reconciliation and there is a state of war,you cannot use marriage to effect that purpose.

On the Prophet (sa) being loyal to Sayyida Khadija (as),if the Prophet (sa) is the kind of man christian fanatics describe him,inspite of any poor condition he would have still done things with other women.for a man to live that long with one woman who some people say was older than him shows the man had self control.

Paris-Love:
I was expecting to read the reason, none came forth. Did Fatima(as) and Imam Ali(as) had such clause? Did they sign such contract?

What was the real reason? Really? You forgot some of Muhammad's marriage took place on battle grounds e.g Safiyah. Pls tell me what's there to reconcile between safiyah's clan and the muslims when the abley bodied men where killed and women and children taken into slavery. And according to the hadiths it was jealousy that entered Fatima. Please prove other wise.

Like really? How can a poor orphan husband marry a 2nd wife when he has a rich powerful wife? I think we know who wore pants in that relationship. Enough with the lame excuses that the Prophet had to marry due to political reasons
and not for sex, or he was forced to marry, simply wanted to
rescue widows etc. There are sahih Hadiths available today to prove clearly that Prophet Muhammad married many women for his personal lusts and had sëx daily with most of his wives who stayed with him.

ShiaLagos: Honestly I'm not sure.but regardless I drew that into our discussion to prove there's nothing wrong with monogamy in Islam.the reason why the rumour of marriage to abu jahl's daughter caused an uproar was because of who/what abu jahl was.I hope you won't ask me the same question again because it appears the reasons are no longer good for you and you're digging forwhat isn't.

You tend to firstly forget you're discussing and reading meaning into what is established to have been a false rumor.Imam Ali (as) did nothing that really angered his first and only wife during her lifetime.if she was jealous and its normal for women to have such feelings for their husbands,even aisha was among the wivesof the Prophet (sa).also what really made the rumor wicked was that the husband of Prophet Muhammad's (sa) daughter was going to marry abu jahl's daughter.now that will cause in Sayyida Fatima (as) more than jealousy.

Safiyya (ra) was jewish.her marriage and reasons behind it were entirely different.she was the daughter of the chief of the banu nadhirtribe.her marriage to the Prophet (sa) which sheconsented to,maintained her elevated status.she was also a captive of war or what many would wrongly refer to as "slave" and the Prophet (sa) married her.

I think what you refer to as "authentic" is lame.I wonder who would know when and how a married man in his house is having intimate relation with his wives.

I've seen that hadith and its silly just for its suggestion a man can Be Intimate with 11 women at a stretch.that hadith is found as usual in the book of Sunnis they call"sahih" hadith.it was put there most likely by a wicked being to denigrate the Prophet (sa) by breaking the shield of decency/morality/shame and possibly to make a political statement to justify the ills of any of the corrupt sunni caliph

nevertheless sex in islam is perfectly healthy and even encouraged for a man when done correctly.you can call that lust or whatever you please.his wives didn't complain.

Paris-Love:

…Aisha said, ‘I have not seen any woman
suffering as much as the believing
women…’


Shalom

maclatunji:

Bukhari

Volumn 007, Book 072, Hadith Number 715.
-----------------------------------------
Narated By 'Ikrima : Rifa'a divorced his wife whereupon 'AbdurRahman bin Az-Zubair Al-Qurazi married her. 'Aisha said that the lady (came), wearing a green veil (and complained to her ('Aisha) of her husband and showed her a green spot on her skin caused by beating). It was the habit of ladies to support each other, so when Allah's Apostle came, 'Aisha said, "I have not seen any woman suffering as much as the believing women. Look! Her skin is greener than her clothes!"
When 'AbdurRahman heard that his wife had gone to the Prophet, he came with his two sons from another wife. She said, "By Allah! I have done no wrong to him but he is impotent and is as useless to me as this," holding and showing the fringe of her garment, 'Abdur-Rahman said, "By Allah, O Allah's Apostle! She has told a lie! I am very strong and can satisfy her but she is disobedient and wants to go back to Rifa'a." Allah's Apostle said, to her, "If that is your intention, then know that it is unlawful for you to remarry Rifa'a unless Abdur-Rahman has had sexual intercourse with you." Then the Prophet saw two boys with 'Abdur-Rahman and asked (him), "Are these your sons?" On that 'AbdurRahman said, "Yes." The Prophet said, "You claim what you claim (i.e. that he is impotent)? But by Allah, these boys resemble him as a crow resembles a crow."

Shame on you for not quoting the hadith in full. Then again, you go to an anti-Islamic website, copy and parrot everything you see there over here without thinking. Are you that slow? I guess if you wanted to learn about how capitalism works you would go to Fidel Castro. Lack of contemplation is a bad thing. #Nonsense.

Paris-Love:
I never implied there was something wrong with monogamy in islam. At first you said you're not sure and later start telling me the reason again? To say Ali was permitted to marry another because of who Abu was is your thinking. The real reason was because Fatima was jealous. Here the quote "“Did you not know that Ali proposed to marry (Khataba) the daughter of Abu Jahl?” She said: “Is it true what you say? He said three times: “What I say is true.” Jealousy entered into her (heart) to an extent she could not control .... He said: And Fatima’s anguish became severe and she remained thinking about it until night time…she moved to her father’s residence .... It's obvious Fatima was jealous her husband is getting a second wife which is very natural. She was hurt because of it as any woman would be, so he went to his father's house to complain. Many women have done the same thing too when their husband wants to get another wife, unfortunately for them, their parents are not some self declared prophet. And the story continues, .... The Messenger of Allah then said: “O Ali! Do younot know that Fatima is a piece of me and I am from her. Whoever disturbs her, disturbs me and whoever disturbs me has disturbed Allah Why was Fatima disturbed? She was jealous her husband is getting another wife. That's the reason. As it turns out hurting fatima means hurting mo which in turn means hurting Allah this some family god i must say. Anyway the burden of proof is on you to give any reference where Ali was not allowed to marry because the bride was Abu jahl's daughter. The only one we have says Fatima was jealous. Even if you find one, it still doesn't help your case. Muhammad also married enemies daughters for 'political reasons'. He still could have allowed his the same thing. Or is it only your prophet that gets to enjoy enemies daughters alone? Again you have to provide reference where it says it was rumor. You think am going to believe everything you say just like that? Are you saying your prophet can't tell between facts and rumor? If it was rumor would he be telling Ali whoever disturbs Fatima, disturbs him blah blah blah? Please don't tell me your prophet fell for some rumor there's no much difference. They're all enemies daughter aren't they? Safiyah was a husband to kinana whom muhammad tortured and later beheaded because he did not reveal where the hidden treasures were hidden. And you're telling me she consented like what choice did she had? All her family members were either killed(as Muhammad beheaded the able bodied men) and the children and women were taken into slavery. There's no even political reason for marrying her as all the men were killed, the women and Children taken into slavery. So the banu tribe no longer existed! how about the ones narrated by his own wives? as Hugh Fitzgerald of Jihad Watch asks, “who is going to red-pencil a number of the most ‘authentic’ Hadith, or perhaps throw them out altogether, and while we are at it, throw out the Sira (the biography, in the basic Muslim version, of Muhammad)? Who will declare it done? And how could it possibly be accepted? It can’t, and holding out such hope to naïve Infidels is meretricious and sinister.” (Bukhari 7:72:715):
…Aisha said, ‘I have not seen any woman
suffering as much as the believing
women…’


Shalom

Paris-Love:
Thanks lagoshia for all your responses. I think I've over stayed my welcome on this thread.

Take care

♚ƒԐLis-c∆tus:
Salam LagosShia. I wanted to ask you some questions on this thread because I didn't want to start a new thread.
I would appreciate it greatly if you can help with answers.
I wanted to know if there was ever any battles by Muslims during the time of the Prophet, which were fought against the people of Bani Qaynuqa, Bani Nadir and Bani Mustaliq. I am asking in essence whether Jihad was waged against these tribes during the time of the Rasul (SAW). Thanks for replying.

LagosShia:
There were battles.but the phrase "jihad was waged against these tribes" can be misleading.Islamophobes tend to portray these tribes as the "victims" of an assault by the Prophet (sa) and the muslims were the "aggressors".that is far from true.take it as a principle:the Prophet (sa) only raised the sword to defend himself or to ward off agression,which can be seen as "pre-emptive" measure against the aggressors and offenders.those tribes showed enmity to Islam and schemed to harm the muslims and eliminate them.

♚ƒԐLis-c∆tus:

Wow, you just knew what I was going bringing up
thank you so much for the links LS, willl check em' out.