Did Abraham Build the Kaaba?

Jesse Toler

The body of this paper will deal primarily with places and destinations, not theology or personality. I will examine the Biblical accounts of Abraham in the natural and sequential order in which they are preserved in the Bible, while I examine and compare a small sampling of the similarities and differences in the Quran and other Islamic sources. In doing so, I'll point out the several fatal contradictions in the Islamic perspective and leave the reader to determine whether the Islamic version is truth to be believed or fable created to connect a pagan Arabian shrine to the Biblical patriarch of the Israelites. I will cover the ancient evidence and promptly dismember Islamic dogma as inauthentic and based on inadequate grounds. In the end, it will be hard to ignore that the Biblical account is far more reliable and historically accurate and that the Islamic version is mere conjecture imagined in the mind of a suicidal poet of the seventh century.

Nothing is more important to the foundations and development of Islam than the re-casting of Biblical personalities into newly assigned roles as devout Muslims. Shaping Israelite patriarchs into ancient Muslims who worshiped Muhammad’s god is step one. Turning the Lord Christ into a minor image of Muhammad was step two, and worldwide conquest which wars against the soul is now a real possibility [Peter 2:11; Revelation 11:7, 12:7]. While the claims against the Bible are similar to those put forward in Mormonism, and falsified just as easily, both Muslims and non-Muslims need to be reminded that the books of the Bible are the measuring stick to evaluate the historicity and integrity of Muhammad’s often fictional portrayals of these ancient and important people.

Why did the Kaaba play a central role in Muhammad’s fantasies? While no historical facts support his claims, Muslims are seldom deterred. Islam is built upon the notion that Abraham was not only a Muslim [Q. 2:31] but that he was selected by Allah to build the Kaaba in Mecca [Q. 2:125-127], and that while doing so he established the rituals and beliefs which are the cornerstones of Islamic worship. The pagan origins and practices of the Kaaba will not be discussed here, only the patriarchal journeys and the Islamic corruption of the Bible’s texts. Muslims claim that Mecca and the Kaaba are the centers of worship for the entire world. Christians and Jews know that it is Jerusalem, where lays the chief cornerstone of Yahweh's kingdom [Psalm 102:16; I Peter 2:6]. The City of David [Zion] is mentioned nearly 50 times in the Bible as the home of God's people [Isaiah 10:24] and where the hosts will reign [Isaiah 24:23]. Are Muslims going to tell us that these references are corruptions in the texts and that Mecca was the intended city the whole time? Hardly even remotely plausible.

The Kaaba in Mecca is without equal in veneration in Islamic tradition, and had been revered by Arab pagans long before Muhammad’s birth. The Muslim religion holds that the Kaaba was built by Abraham and Ishmael after hearing a direct revelation from Allah. This seems improbable. After all, once Allah guides a people on the right course and provides a mode of conduct for worship through a chosen Prophet, Allah does not then lead them astray into confusion or an inability to see the right course [Q. 9:115]. How is it then that such a man as Abraham would be sent to Mecca to deliver the people from polytheism and build the Kaaba only to later have them fall into apostasy and disbelief, needing yet another prophet in the 7th century A.D.? Abraham being in Mecca is just not consistent with important Islamic doctrines, and a myth. For example, in Q. 2:125 the Kaaba is being purified [Ar. 'tahara'], yet in Q. 2:127 the foundation are still being raised [Ar. Rafa'a]. Depending on the traditions being reviewed, the Kaaba was built by Allah or maybe Adam or possibly Abraham. But, is it true?

Reconstructing ancient events in search for truth is never an easy task, but within the literature handed down from the earliest days, confirmed by corroborating testimony where it is available, certainty looms dreadful for Islamic claims. For example, American scholars such as Albright have discussed the groupings of people and popular migration patterns into and around cultivated areas of the Fertile Crescent, and it is nigh impossible to think that the barren wasteland of the Hijaz would be such a destination for Mesopotamian travelers. Crossing over from Ethiopian lands may be plausible, but Abraham was never in Ethiopia. General migration patters are important to consider if we are going to place the journeys of Abraham into historical context. It is very likely that many people, Abraham's troop included, traveled from Ur to Canaan via the established routes such as the Kings Highway or the International Coastal Road. It is far less likely that these same people then had any reason to travel another 700 miles south into the central Hijaz.

Respected biblical scholars have placed the journeys of the patriarchs in the Middle Bronze Age [2000-1550 B.C.] and this would include the relevant chapters in the Book of Genesis [Chapters 12-50] as well as the narrative accounts in both the Quran and Tradition of the Muslims. In this paper, I will present the narrative from the Book of Genesis, chapters twelve thru twenty-five, as those speak specifically of the travels of Abraham from his calling to his death. Let’s introduce a few of the Islamic fables first, take a close look at the Bible, then we’ll touch upon a few more Islamic myths before closing. That will complete the comparison, and the reader can decide which is believable and which is not.

One Islamic tradition holds that Abraham brought both Hagar and Ishmael to Mecca [Source: Bukhari Volume 4, Book 55, Number 584] then returned to Canaan after leaving both Hagar and her infant son in the uninhabited region of Arabia which would later serve as the ground for a building used to quarter the idols of the Kaaba. However,  Sam Shamoun points out in ‘Ishmael is not the Father of Muhammad’ that eminent scholar Alfred Guillaume has written,

‘", there is no historical evidence for the assertion that Abraham or Ishmael was ever in Mecca, and if there had been such a tradition it would have to be explained how all memory of the Old Semitic name Ishmael (which was not in its true Arabian form in Arabian inscriptions and written correctly with an initial consonant Y) came to be lost. The form in the Quran is taken either from Greek or Syriac sources." (Alfred Guillaume, Islam [Penguin Books Inc., Baltimore, 1956], pp. 61-62). 

Another tradition holds that Muhammad himself is said to have told his favorite wife Aisha that, “Had not your people been still close to the pre-Islamic period of ignorance I would have dismantled the Kaaba and would have made two doors in it; one for entrance and the other for exit”. [Sahih Bukhari, Volume 1, Book 3, Number 128].

So much for the importance of the Kaaba. Yet, we are to believe that the Meccan prophet held the Kaaba in the highest esteem, and believed it had been built and rebuilt after a revelation from Allah.

Let’s examine the Bible and see what we can gather about Abraham, his journeys as agent of Yahweh among the nations and his role as a channel for God’s blessing to the world.

What does the Bible tell us of Abraham, and is it possible that he had spent time in Mecca? Let’s review the Scriptures now. The answers to all these questions lay within a survey of the Book of Genesis. Most of this is common knowledge to Christians, but by way of review, let’s go over the complete list of places Abraham traveled. A good Bible atlas would be useful to the reader. I suggest the Holman Bible Atlas but any Bible Atlas will help to put the following discussion into geographical perspective. The point of this exercise is to elucidate where Abraham did travel, in order to discover where he did not. Obviously, the Muslims will quickly claim that the Christian Scriptures are corrupted, and that we removed the parts which corroborate the worth and validity of the Islamic claims from the germane chapters of the Book of Genesis. The accusation of corruption is silly and unsupported by fact but it’s the only card Muslims have to play, so I don’t blame them for playing it. As I noted, Abraham went outside of Canaan a couple of times. However, the Bible nowhere mentions that Arabia was part of his journeys. Muslims may claim that this has been “removed” from the text, but for what reason? The text of Genesis was fixed many centuries before Islam. Why would it mention several travels outside of Canaan but remove Arabia/Mecca when neither the author (Moses) nor the Jews for many centuries would have the slightest idea about Islam? We have plenty of manuscripts from centuries before Muhammad, none of which place him in Mecca.

Born in Ur, his father Terah began his migration to Canaan [Genesis 11:21]. After Terah’s death, Abraham was called by Yahweh to continue the journey to Canaan [Genesis 12:1] where God promised to Abraham and his descendants the land inhabited by the Canaanites. Let’s note here that we are given the names of the Tribes which would be displaced to establish Abraham in the land. None of them inhabited the Hijaz. The point is, that the area in which the Ka’aba was allegedly built by Abraham was nowhere near the region where Abraham was to establish his family, so why build a temple or an altar so far from Canaan? [Genesis 12:7-8; cf. First Epistle of Clement 10:3-5 (source for I Clement)]. Soon, Abraham and his family arrived in Canaan, and drove his herds into the region of Bethel, Shechem and Moreh [Genesis 12:4-6]. After an appearance of God in Canaan, Abraham moved his house further south, into the Negev. The Negev is in Canaan, on the West side of the Dead Sea, north of the Wilderness of Zin. It is bordered on the east by Edom, and could not have possibly included the Syro-Arabian desert region further to the east, and certainly excludes the uninhabited lands surrounding Mecca 700 miles to the south.

Next, a famine struck Canaan, and Abraham sought refuge by going ‘down to Egypt’ [Genesis 12:10] and later, his son Ishmael would take an Egyptian for a wife [Genesis 21:21]. To summarize so far, Abraham had yet to travel farther south than the centers of power in Egypt. Still a long way from Mecca.

Abraham later left Egypt a wealthy man and soon separated from his nephew Lot [Genesis 13:14]. Abraham then moved to Hebron, and built an altar to Yahweh. Later, a war breaks out in the region of the Dead Sea [Genesis 14:1-24] and Abraham defeats a tyrannical king in a battle north of Damascus near Mt. Hermon [vv. 13-17] frees Lot and establishes himself as ‘blessed by the God Most High’. God then establishes His covenant with Abraham, and promises to his descendants ‘this land, from the river of Egypt to the great river, the River Euphrates’ [Genesis 15:18-21]. Notice by using your atlas that the boundaries for the covenant lands are not even close to Mecca or central Arabia. The river in Egypt was most likely the Wadi el-Arish. The Euphrates is in northern Syria. It makes no sense that God would tie a people to a land and the land to the people, only to draw his Prophets from someplace else.

Next we find that Abraham had been living in Canaan for ten years, traveling about Canaan as seasonal weather patterns required [Genesis 16], when he became impatient with God’s plan and took Hagar as a second 'wife'. The same Hebrew word is used in 16:3 to describe both Sarai and Hagar as wife. However, the status of Hagar is debatable. Follow this link for a fuller discussion on 'Hagar in Abraham's Household'. The Egyptian maid conceived, in Canaan, and bore Abraham's son, in Canaan. Abraham’s anxiousness to have a son caused him and his family great grief. Rather than exercising self-control and forbearance, he took a course that was a threat to his faith. While Abraham’s actions nearly lead him astray, he was not the first nor the last to doubt God’s promises. Hagar soon suffers intense humiliation at the hands of Abraham and Sarah, but at Beer-Lahai-Roi is met by the Angel of the Lord, and delivered from her plight. This event took place West of the Wadi el-Arish, in Egypt and nearly 1,000 miles from Mecca. She was most likely trying to return home to Egypt.

After the establishment of the Covenant of Circumcision, we find Abraham talking to God under the ‘holy tree of Mamre’, which is near Hebron, nearly 1,000 miles from Mecca [Book of Genesis 18:1]. Later, Abraham intercedes for Sodom, which is then destroyed for its depravity and Lot escapes to Zoar [Genesis 18:16-19:30; cf. First Epistle of Clement 11:1-2]. Outside of Zoar, Lot was the victim of a scheme concocted by his eldest daughter. Zoar was in the southern tip of the Dead Sea in the Valley of Siddim, and like every other event from the OT, a long way from Mecca. From Lot’s daughters are born the Moabites and the Ammonites, longstanding enemies of Israel and Judah. Moab and Ammon lay on the east side of the Dead Sea and later form the eastern edge of the Covenant Land. The southeastern extreme of the Covenant Land extends no farther than this and no prophets would ever be called from beyond these borders.

Following the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, we encounter Abraham in Gerar, between Kadesh and Shur. In Gerar Isaac was born, wells were dug and treaties were struck. In short, there is no reason imaginable that God would take Abraham from his wells, family and tents in Canaan and command him to raise the foundations of the Kaaba over 1,000 miles away. All of this is a death blow to the Quran’s claims to Abraham, but let’s discuss a few more Biblical passages, ending with the death and burial of Abraham in order to close the lid on Islam once and for all.

Isaac is later weaned and tension again increases between Sarah and Hagar. Sarah pleaded with Abraham to cast Hagar out, and the following morning she was given bread, a water skin and her son. She then wandered into the wasteland of Beer-Sheba, in southern Canaan [Genesis 21:8-21]. In these passages, God addresses Abraham and calls Hagar the ‘maidservant’ [Hb אמה 'amah' not ‘wife’ as in 16:3; compare the Latin Vulgate where in 21:8-12 ‘ancilla‘ is ‘maidservant’ or ‘female slave’ ]. Hagar had lost any status she may have earlier enjoyed, so her status as a wife at all can be questioned.

Before we leave Hagar to history, let me remind you of four important differences between the Bible and Quran surrounding this narrative. In the Biblical narrative,  Hagar’s suffering and plight are of paramount importance to understanding the events surrounding the birth of the Promised Son. These events also give us insight into the treatment of women in the ancient Near East, which are still evident in Islam today. Hagar is the only woman in the Scriptures who is given the honor of giving a name to God, and she receives her own distinct covenant as a reward for her suffering and submission. What does the Quran say about this incredible woman who endured so much suffering? Nothing. So much for Islam honoring its pivotal women.

Eventually, Ishmael settled in the Wilderness of Paran, and took an Egyptian wife. Just where is the Wilderness of Paran, and does it, as Muslims claim, include the lands far to the south in the Hijaz? Let’s again look at our atlas. Paran is an ill-defined term in the Old Testament, suggesting that outside of it being a place on the route of the Exodus [Numbers 12:16], the region had very little geographical or theological importance to the Israelites. There is no prophetic scripture suggesting that a prophet would come from the Wilderness of Paran, nor a promise of prophetic license promised to Hagar or her descendants [Gen 16:7-16]. It is also worth noting that God spoke to Hagar, never to Ishmael. Very curious.

Located in the Sinai, Midian and Edom are natural borders to the east. Canaan is due north and central Sinai to the west. Not only are the borders of Paran well within the Sinai Peninsula, but as mentioned earlier, migration across the barren lands of Arabia was far less likely than remaining close to the routes of the Exodus. While migrations of people from Palestine into the Hijaz appear to be rare from the extant evidence, armies from Babylon did venture south. One example is Nabonidus King of Babylon who in the 6th century B.C. established outposts and colonies in the region. A total of six oasis towns are listed in the extant inscriptions, and while Yathrib is mentioned, Mecca, which is 280 miles south of Yathrib is nowhere to be seen on his lists. Mercantile movements were more common, but not until the 10th century and long after the death of Abraham. A notable case in favor of the Quranic view of Abraham’s travels can be found in the Book of I Kings [10:1-13] where the Queen of Sheba did in fact make the journey from S.W. Arabia to Israel. However, the territory of Sheba and also Tema are mentioned in the Book of Job [6:19] and yet while the region was traveled by merchants and known to the Biblical writers, there is still no mention of Mecca. Sheba is again discussed by the Prophet Isaiah [60:6] and nothing is said of Mecca or any dialectal variant of the name offered by Muslims. The Sabeans of Yemen never even mention the city either. The conclusion is evidently that Mecca was not in existence until long after Abraham's journeys.

Following God’s expulsion of Hagar and Ishmael, life continues for Abraham and his only wife Sarah. A disputed well becomes a source of controversy with King Abimelech. This name may translate 'Slave of Molech'. If this Biblical name were a derivative of the Canaanite name, that would serve as strong evidence that much of the Book of Genesis pre-dates Israel's Kingdom Period and gives even greater evidence to the non-existence of Mecca during the period of Abraham's travels, and an oath is sworn in Beersheba, again in Canaan [Genesis 21:22-34]. Later, Abraham is called to Mt. Moriah and the well known 'binding of Isaac' is played out. Mt. Moriah is also in Palestine, north of Beersheba. While the exact location is unknown, it only took Abraham three days to travel, so it could not have taken place in Mecca [Genesis 22]. An important observation here is that Isaac is called ‘your only son’ three times in this chapter. How can that be? Because Ishmael had already been sent away. He was to have no part of the covenant promised to Abraham and given to Isaac.

Soon, we find that Sarah had died, and Abraham arranges for the purchase of the Cave of Machpela. Yet again he has not left Canaan [Genesis 23]. Here Muslims need to explain why God would allow Abraham to build a tomb in Canaan for his family, but then a temple 1,000 miles away in a barren region of the Hijaz. In chapter twenty-four, we find that Abraham had become 'old in years' [24:1] It was time to find a wife for Isaac. Note that Abraham had nothing to do with finding a wife for Ishmael. Abraham's chief servant was selected for the task of conducting the search. An oath was sworn that the wife would not be a Canaanite but from Abraham's people in Mesopotamia. Let’s be reasonable here. If Abraham had built the Kaaba, then why wouldn’t Isaac’s wife be taken from the local tribes in the Hijaz or even farther south? . He returns home with Rebekkah to south Canaan, she weds Isaac and later Abraham dies and is buried with his wife Sarah in Machpelah. Both Ishmael and Isaac attended the funeral. Both must have been very close to Canaan, and in no way can we conclude that any of these men ever travels to Mecca to build a shrine to Allah and the other pagan gods native to Mecca. The Quran 11:49 clearly states that there had been no prophets to the Arabs before, so it can't be true that Abraham built the Kaaba. Also note that the Islamic traditions point out that before Muhammad’s claim to the prophetic office, none of his people had made the claim before him [Bukhari, Vol 1, Book 1, #6].

This all leads us to a connection with the nation of Israel, the Davidic Kingdom and the Savior who even now offers mercy to his wandering sons [Psalm 100:5,8; Luke 1:50; cf. Apology of al-Kindy, p.121].

 Articles by Jesse Toler

Can we imagin things and then claim them as facts. Without concrete proof?

he didnt imahine anything! muhammad was a crafty fellow. he knew the truth but he decieved the arabs with his lies. those who saw through his ruse, met with the sword.

When the truth is been replaced with lies, there comes fabricated truth, only ignorantS accept such.

from this thread you will see the importance of the Ka'ba to the jews of ancient and the arabian pagans themselves who admit it was built by their ancestors (Abraham and Ishmael):
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-838528.0.html#msg9892954

brentkruge:

HISTORY OF MECCA

The Kaaba in Mecca, Saudi Arabia, is considered by Muslims to be the most sacred and holy place in the world. It is said to have been built by Adam and became the first structure on earth. It is believed to have been commissioned by Allah in the shape of the House in Heaven called Baitul Ma’amoor around which the angels perform Tawaaf. The structure incorporates a black stone into one corner that is believed to have been sent down by Allah. So important is this site that Muslims from all over the world prostrate themselves toward the Ka'aba when they repeat their prayers to Allah five times a day. Muslims are also required to perform the "Hajj" at least once in their lifetime, which consists of traveling to Makka, and circumambulating the Ka'aba. Crowd size permitting, each round is to begin by rubbing, or kissing the black stone (ew! After all these years! Isnt that idolatry?) as Muhammad did, or at least pointing to the stone on each of the seven circuits one walks around it. The Kaaba is said to be situated at the center of the world with the gate of heaven located directly above it.

According to the Quran, the Ka'aba was re-built by Abraham and Ishmael, and has presumably been the center of worship for Allah's people, ever since. However in the 7th century AD in which Mohammed lived, the Ka'aba was a center of pagan worship, of some 360 rock idols that resided in and around the Ka'aba. Mohammed took issue with the polytheists and eventually gained the power to have all of the rock idols removed , except for the black stone - a meteorite - that still resides at the Ka'aba today.

So the question begs, that if Allah commissioned the above described building to be constructed at the center of the world, and below the gate to heaven, why then did God give Moses specific instruction to build a tabernacle on Mount Moriah, that was completed almost 3,000 years ago, that stood 766 miles from Mecca?

One of the difficulties with Mohammed's view is that there is no record - outside of Islamic tradition - of Abraham ever having been in Mecca. An even greater - indeed insurmountable - difficulty is that there is no historical or archaeological record of Mecca ever having existed, prior to the 4th century AD. While there is plenty of such evidence that confirms that Arabian cities like Qedar, Dedan and Teima were established long before, there is no such evidence that Mecca ever existed before the Christian era.

Try a search like - archaeology of mecca - or - historical and archaeological evidence of mecca. If you can find some evidence that predates the first few centuries AD, that demonstrates that Mecca existed prior to the Christian era, we would appreciate you sharing it with us in the forum. In the absence of such archaeological and historical record, what can be concluded about Mohammed's 7th century religion?

If Mecca has been the epicenter of Islam since the time of Abraham, it would follow that there would be increasingly more archaeological evidence in the form of artifacts and such, the closer one traveled to this focus of Mohammed's religion. It also follows that there should be a greater pre-Christian historical record for Mecca, than perhaps most any other Arabian city, but no such record exists. Compare this to Jerusalem, for example, the epicenter of Judeo/Christian beliefs. One can hardly pick up a shovel full of earth in Jerusalem that doesn't contain artifacts, and the closer one gets to Jerusalem, the more concentrated and abundant such artifacts are. Indeed there are even one million artifacts on display.

In short, no Mecca before the 4th century - no Kaaba before the 5th century = no Islamic history.

Based on extensive historical and archaeological evidence presented by Dr. Rafat Amari (quotes and links below), Mecca was built around the 4th century, by the Yemeni tribe of Khuzaa'h, that had migrated to that bleak barren desert wasteland. The Kaaba was apparently constructed by Asa’d Abu Karb in the early 5th century A.D., when the black stone apparently made it's way to Mecca, most likely also from Yemen. It is said that prior to the construction of the Kaabah, a tent existed on the spot where it was built.

Geographers and historians from antiquity, note even small Arabian settlements before the Christian era that came and went within a few centuries, and while the historical accounts about, and artifacts from, ancient settlements confirm the existence of each other, there is no reference to Mecca or it's Kaaba to be found. This even though it was eventually built on one of the most established trading routes in Arabia about which historical record abounds, and in spite of the Muslim claims that Mecca was the center of the Islamic faith, for thousands of years before Mohammed. If this were the case, Mecca would certainly have been one of the most written about Arabian places, by those early geographers and historians.

There are references to lots of other temples, and even to a great temple "highly revered by all the Arabs”, that was likely the one of the Bythemaneas, located near Ilat in the Aqaba gulf area.

Even Mohammed's own tribe, the Quraish went on Hajj or pilgrimage twice a year - one to the north - long after the Kaaba in Mecca was built, indicating that the Kaaba in Mecca was a lesser temple. One of the journeys during the summer was to the city of Taif where there was also a temple called Kaabah of Ellat, or Kaabah of the Sun.

Quoting Dr. Amari "This Kaabah was more significant and much older than the Kaabah of Mecca. All Arabs, including the tribe of Quraish from which Mohammed came, venerated this Kaabah."

"The stone was considered the main shrine, or sacred element, in each temple, called Kaabah in Arabic. This revered stone, which represented the moon, was considered to be divine. The worship of the Arabian Star Family with Allah, who was the moon as its head, revolved around the black stone. Ellat, Allah’s wife, was the sun, and al-'Uzza and Manat, his daughters, represented two planets.

There was no shortage of Kaabas in Arabia each with it's own black stone. Arabian Star Family temple design left its indelible fingerprints on those temples as well as on the Kaaba in Mecca, demonstrating that Abraham could not have built it even if the city of Mecca had existed before the 4th century AD."

I[b]ndeed no Muslim will deny that there may have been as many as 360 stone idols located in and around the Kaaba in Mohammed's day. Mohammed took issue with the polytheists, and finally gained the power to expell all of the stone idols, which he did [/b], except for the black rock that Muslims still bow toward five times a day. In Islam, each Muslim is required to travel to Mecca to circumambulate the stone, just as the pagans did before Mohammed.

I can see that u ve answered the topic but not the thread as usual. Ur post shows it.
If to say, u read through the thread u for get some stronge argument to make, but u ignore it and go copy something wen no make any sense and post it.

This ur own history of Mecca and its conclution get k-leg. We go re-examine the thing over again, but brief.

[b]According to the Encyclopedia of Religion, Na the Babylonian dey use the word ALLAH? god Baal, so the Arabs dey aware of him long before Mohamed worshipped him as the supreme God. when Islam never form, the Arabs know many gods and goddesses, we learn say, each tribe get their own deity. Allah na the god of the local Quarish tribe, and na eim be Mohammed's tribe befor he form Islam to lead him people out of their polytheism. At that time, ppl sabi Allah as the Moon God, with 3 daughters dem see them as intercessors for the people into Allah. Their names na Al-at, Al-uzza, and Al-Manat, we don discuss am before shall!. The first two daughters of Allah get names like feminin forms of Allah. "Hubal" na the (oga) chief God of the Kaaba among 360 deities. "Hubal" was the chief God of the Kaaba among the other 360 deities. Hubal was a statue likeness of a man wen dem make him body wit red precious stones e arms na gold dem use make am. (Reference Islam George Braswell Jr.)

“Historians like Vaqqidi Talk say, Allah na "for sure" the chief of the 360 gods saved in Arabia so when Mohammed rose to rule. one Ibn Al-Kalbi gave list of 27 names of pre-Islamic deities, Interestingly, no be all Muslims like to accept say Allah don already being saved at the Ka'ba wen dey Mecca by Arab pagans befor Mohammed come. many Muslims like Lasoshia and bashy and co no like to be confronted with this fact. But sorry, history no do una good at all.

Still on the Kaaba, history don shown say, Mecca and the holy stone al-Kaaba na holy sites for pre-Islamic pagan Arabs. The Kaaba former name na Beit-Allah meaning "House of Allah". Story story tell us say na heaven forst build am. This one contradict wetin God instructed Moses to build, This na wetin Muslims dey overlook when dem dey the Bible.

The Koran tells us that Mohammed drove the other idols away; he made one God now the only god and he was its messenger. He kept the Kaaba as a holy, sacred place and confirmed that the black stone had the power to take away man's sins. He obligated every believer to make a pilgrimage to the stone at least once in his lifetime. (Sura 22:26-37)

So, u can see that Mohammed still used the name Allah which was formerly the name of a specific idol witout ever distinguishing it from the idol the Meccan’s were already worshipping. A modification of their former worship but never a complete break. He never did say for the people to stop their worship of the wrong Allah, for the right one. [/b]

tHE WORSE IS THE CLAIM OF ABRAHAM AS THE BUILDER! and REFUSING TO ACCEPT THE NAME ALLAH WAS CONSERVED BY MUHAMMED.

anty Plappville,

if to say u fit come lagos,i go show u for where babalawo dey carry bible and they command "in the name of Jesus" and dey even worship Jehovah as him "chief god".

for that reason,wey i show,u suppose to accept say Jehovah and Jesus don become "chief idols" so you and all the Jesus-worshippers for dis world una don become idol worshipper too.or e go better say mek una stop to claim say Jesus na una "lord and saviour" becuz babalawo too dey claim Jesus and both Jesus and Jehovah don become "chief idols".

i hope say na one too make sense for ur olodo head.

LagosShia:

anty Plappville,

if to say u fit come lagos,i go show u for where babalawo dey carry bible and they command "in the name of Jesus" and dey even worship Jehovah as him "chief god".

for that reason,wey i show,u suppose to accept say Jehovah and Jesus don become "chief idols" so you and all the Jesus-worshippers for dis world una don become idol worshipper too.or e go better say mek una stop to claim say Jesus na una "lord and saviour" becuz babalawo too dey claim Jesus and both Jesus and Jehovah don become "chief idols".

i hope say na one too make sense for your olodo head.

I am a Lagos Boy BTW.

When next I visit, I will show you thousands of Yoruba Muslims all deep into Juju.

frosbel:

I am a Lagos Boy BTW.

When next I visit, I will show you thousands of Yoruba Muslims all deep into Juju.

oh really? that is great news!

PAGAN  9JA:


oh really? that is great news!

Without Lagos there is no Nigeria  !!

I am coming this year for a visit , I dare not tell LagosShia when and where , his sword bearing Jihadists will be waiting for me. 

take a herd of pigs with you. that will send LagosShia and his gang flying away.

PAGAN 9JA:

take a herd of pigs with you. that will send LagosShia and his gang flying away.

@Plappville; Please watch the video below and freeze it at 6.20 Minute clip to read that The Jews accept the Ka'aba as the Tabernacle of the Lord.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B0jCHk7M1hw


Who built the Tabernacle of the Lord, except Abraham?


Lol at you, woman.

@betathings; [Quote]So the question begs, that if Allah commissioned the above described building to be constructed at the center of the world, and below the gate to heaven, why then did God give Moses specific instruction to build a tabernacle on Mount Moriah, that was completed almost 3,000 years ago, that stood 766 miles from Mecca? Undecided Undecided Undecided Undecided[/Quote]Notice the differences; Allah ordered the Ka'aba. God of the Bible ordered Moses to build tabernacle on Mount Moriah. What Moses built based on what the God of Bible ordered is completely destroyed and I bet you will not be able to locate a genuine remnant of it, similar to the ark of the covenant because you people are either liars and or too careless with instruction and reverence from and to your Bible God. The Ka'aba is still there in Makka still. Even Stevie Wonders knows that it is there.

Sweetnecta:

@Plappville; Please watch the video below and freeze it at 6.20 Minute clip to read that The Jews accept the Ka'aba as the Tabernacle of the Lord.

hilarious. Muslims struggling too hard to force the jews into islam.

@Betathings:[Quote]If Mecca has been the epicenter of Islam since the time of Abraham, it would follow that there would be increasingly more archaeological evidence in the form of artifacts and such, the closer one traveled to this focus of Mohammed's religion. It also follows that there should be a greater pre-Christian historical record for Mecca, than perhaps most any other Arabian city, but no such record exists. Compare this to Jerusalem, for example, the epicenter of Judeo/Christian beliefs. One can hardly pick up a shovel full of earth in Jerusalem that doesn't contain artifacts, and the closer one gets to Jerusalem, the more concentrated and abundant such artifacts are. Indeed there are even one million artifacts on display. Lips sealed Lips sealed Lips sealed[/Quote]Makka is the epicenter of the world's land mass. Islam was completed on Muhammad [as] but started originally on Adam [as], rekindled after the flood of Noah [as] on Abraham [as] and supported by Lut [as], while the sons of Abraham; first born Ishmael and his baby brother Isaac [as] were muslims. So was Jacob [as]. So was Joseph [as] and his brothers. So were Moses and Harun [as]. And you can be a muslim and not be arabs and you can be child of Israel and be muslim. Jesus [as] was a muslim. For sure you will agree Jesus was not a christian and he was not a Jew wailing to a wall, instead a Jew praying like Muslim.


@Davidylan; You are a class act.Was the video I recommended made by muslim or by a christian who thought he was getting over Muslim? I see that you didnt watch it. Otherwise, you will not be so bold to sound ignorant. We yorubas have a saying; bi ati o ba gbo shinkin, inu ki nbaje. Ask yoruba people to translate, and it is the reason you didn't watch it before you start your "gra gra". Watch it man, if you really have the equipment of man. Then your gra gra will die off, quickly realizing suddenly that you have been ignoring Abraham all along.

Sweetnecta:

@Davidylan; You are a class act.Was the video I recommended made by muslim or by a christian who thought he was getting over Muslim? I see that you didnt watch it. Otherwise, you will not be so bold to sound ignorant. We yorubas have a saying; bi ati o ba gbo shinkin, inu ki nbaje. Ask yoruba people to translate, and it is the reason you didn't watch it before you start your "gra gra". Watch it man, if you really have the equipment of man. Then your gra gra will die off, quickly realizing suddenly that you have been ignoring Abraham all along.

and exactly on what basis did the maker of the video base his claims? I could show you a youtube video of those who claim to have seen aliens, does that mean aliens actually exist? Dishonest piffle.
If the jews considered the kaaba as the "tabernacle of the Lord" then why is there NO record of any such in history? The jews recorded all their tabernacles down to the architectural details of the first tabernacle built by Moses (Abraham built an ALTAR not a tabernacle by the way) . . . and the jerusalem temple.

@Betathings and maybe Davidylan if Davidylan has the stomach; [Quote]Geographers and historians from antiquity, note even small Arabian settlements before the Christian era that came and went within a few centuries, and while the historical accounts about, and artifacts from, ancient settlements confirm the existence of each other, there is no reference to Mecca or it's Kaaba to be found. This even though it was eventually built on one of the most established trading routes in Arabia about which historical record abounds, and in spite of the Muslim claims that Mecca was the center of the Islamic faith, for thousands of years before Mohammed. If this were the case, Mecca would certainly have been one of the most written about Arabian places, by those early geographers and historians. Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked[/Quote]Before Judaism and or Christianity, there was a man named Abraham who had a first son named Ishmael. First son is an only son until another son is born. Well, at age 14, the Bible said that his father set him and his mother out of the house to the wilderness, never to return until his return to attend his funeral. We are going to assume that the wilderness her may be any place they settle, finally. Makka may actually be this place unless somebody can prove me wrong. This is a challenge.

What is interesting is that the Bible reported that this 14 year old boy who is strong is set on his mother's shoulder for the journey! This does not make any sense at all, especially when he is strong enough to walk on his own 2 feet. Why saddle his mother with having to carry him on her shoulders, unless the writers of the Bible do not use their heads exposing their fables to the future generations, us.

It was reported also in the Bible that at some point mother and son ran out of water [lets leave the bread that should be finished by now, aside]. At this point of needing fresh source of water to drink, the mother is the one seeking it, so much so that she was exhausted, set the 14 years old boy [as if he was weak soul] aside and looked away, not wanting to see him died! The bIble is a classic in this story set based on the Jewish legendary mindset of wanting to be the only real blood of Abraham, disregarding many factors; God named Ishmael and God didn't name Isaac. God promised to bless Ishmael and make him great [how is the blessing and greatness realized or fulfilled?], the love of Abraham for his son Ishmael, etc.

What is so important here more than all I have written is the fact that God protected Ishmael so much that He sent an Angel to dig a well of water that sustain the son and mother, at that time and all their lives because we realized that Ishmael grew and buried his father. He became father of children. Can anyone, especially mr. davidyan tell us how the God of the Bible managed to fulfill the promises he had about Ishmael by ponting to the nations he is father of, and how he has been blessed, considering that many of you said in the past that Muhammad [as] is not from his bloodline, leading to Abraham [as]?

He well that sustained Ishmael and his mother is Zam Zam in Makka and it is sustaining mankind, even today, while the wells or springs for the 12 tribes of Israel in their exodus are long disappeared. If we use this Well alone, Ishmael must have been singly important to Yahweh over and above all that came from the Bible; things that are long forgotten.

No wonder Allah [Elah of Jesus; if you want to be technical about it] raised the best [as] for last and from Ishmael [as].

^^^


You just enjoy living in deception.

Despite all the facts, you blindly march in the opposite direction to the truth

@Davidylan; « #16 on: Today at 09:29:40 PM »
[QUote]Quote from: Sweetnecta on Today at 09:16:18 PM
@Davidylan; You are a class act.Was the video I recommended made by muslim or by a christian who thought he was getting over Muslim? I see that you didnt watch it. Otherwise, you will not be so bold to sound ignorant. We yorubas have a saying; bi ati o ba gbo shinkin, inu ki nbaje. Ask yoruba people to translate, and it is the reason you didn't watch it before you start your "gra gra". Watch it man, if you really have the equipment of man. Then your gra gra will die off, quickly realizing suddenly that you have been ignoring Abraham all along.

and exactly on what basis did the maker of the video base his claims? I could show you a youtube video of those who claim to have seen aliens, does that mean aliens actually exist? Dishonest piffle.[/Quote]Did the Vatican create Islam; a video from a Protestant, christian missionary, apologetic, thinking he is gonna rubbish Islam.



[Quote]If the jews considered the kaaba as the "tabernacle of the Lord" then why is there NO record of any such in history? The jews recorded all their tabernacles down to the architectural details of the first tabernacle built by Moses (Abraham built an ALTAR not a tabernacle by the way) . . . and the jerusalem temple.[/Quote]The Jews do not have any exclusivity to this "Tabernacle" since it is in the custody of their grand uncle's family in Makka. Maybe you should have strength to watch the Video instead of acting like a weakling? And while you are at it, read the Bible about the journey/pilgrimage of Ezekiel from your Bible. What you failed to get is that all the tabernacle[s] of the lord that you claim for the jews are all ruined, kaput, and the Tabernacle of the Lord that you reject because of your serious ignorance is standing tall in Makka. You sound so ignorant, mr. davidlyn that it sickens me to respond to you. I can appreciate a good argument, but you block your horizon so much that it may actually be better to talk to a wall instead of responding to you. Don't expect me to honor your ignorance with a response, unless you watch the video clip and then research it by first talking to Olaadegbu to lead you to the well of shame that the Bible has dug for you.

Sweetnecta:

@Betathings and maybe Davidylan if Davidylan has the stomach; Before Judaism and or Christianity, there was a man named Abraham who had a first son named Ishmael. First son is an only son until another son is born. Well, at age 14, the Bible said that his father set him and his mother out of the house to the wilderness, never to return until his return to attend his funeral. We are going to assume that the wilderness her may be any place they settle, finally. Makka may actually be this place unless somebody can prove me wrong. This is a challenge.

This is quite bizarre. On what basis do you make the wild, unfounded claim that Mecca is where Ishmael and his mother (an egyptian) settle? Isnt it odd that they settle in Mecca far far away from her family for no reason at all other than the quran - that came over 3000 yrs AFTER their existence-says so? Why did she then leave Mecca BACK to Egypt just to pick a wife for her grown son? No women in Mecca? Are you aware of the distance from Mecca to Egypt?

Sweetnecta:

What is interesting is that the Bible reported that this 14 year old boy who is strong is set on his mother's shoulder for the journey! This does not make any sense at all, especially when he is strong enough to walk on his own 2 feet. Why saddle his mother with having to carry him on her shoulders, unless the writers of the Bible do not use their heads exposing their fables to the future generations, us.

and exactly why are you looking in the bible for the story of this boy? Tell us what the quran has to say instead.

Sweetnecta:

It was reported also in the Bible that at some point mother and son ran out of water [lets leave the bread that should be finished by now, aside]. At this point of needing fresh source of water to drink, the mother is the one seeking it, so much so that she was exhausted, set the 14 years old boy [as if he was weak soul] aside and looked away, not wanting to see him died! The bIble is a classic in this story set based on the Jewish legendary mindset of wanting to be the only real blood of Abraham, disregarding many factors; God named Ishmael and God didn't name Isaac. God promised to bless Ishmael and make him great [how is the blessing and greatness realized or fulfilled?], the love of Abraham for his son Ishmael, etc.

what did the quran report instead?

Sweetnecta:

What is so important here more than all I have written is the fact that God protected Ishmael so much that He sent an Angel to dig a well of water that sustain the son and mother, at that time and all their lives because we realized that Ishmael grew and buried his father. He became father of children. Can anyone, especially mr. davidyan tell us how the God of the Bible managed to fulfill the promises he had about Ishmael by ponting to the nations he is father of, and how he has been blessed, considering that many of you said in the past that Muhammad [as] is not from his bloodline, leading to Abraham [as]?

odd. In one breath the bible is illogical in saying a mother backed her 14 yr old son with 2 feet YET you run back to quote that same bible as evidence of God's protection over the same boy? Care to tell us how you arrived at the above conclusion FROM THE QURAN?

Sweetnecta:

He well that sustained Ishmael and his mother is Zam Zam in Makka and it is sustaining mankind, even today, while the wells or springs for the 12 tribes of Israel in their exodus are long disappeared. If we use this Well alone, Ishmael must have been singly important to Yahweh over and above all that came from the Bible; things that are long forgotten.

all based on quranic tales by moonlight.

Oh by the way, the acquifers built by Kings like Solomon still exist in Israel today.

Sweetnecta:

No wonder Allah [Elah of Jesus; if you want to be technical about it] raised the best [as] for last and from Ishmael [as].

allah is NOT the same as Elah. Actually Allah = Al + Ilah (the REAL TECHNICAL arabic form of the semitic root word Elah). Stop trying to pull the wool over our eyes.

@sweetnecta, why all these meaningless analyses? All U @Devidlan asked u is just a simple Documented historical prove from the socalled Jewish people that believed its from the Lord. Not what the angel of the Quran said.

Sweetnecta:

The Jews do not have any exclusivity to this "Tabernacle" since it is in the custody of their grand uncle's family in Makka.

I wasnt asking you about "exclusivity" you deceitful slave of satan. I asked a simple question - if the jews ever claimed the kaaba as the "tabernacle of God" . . . where is the historical evidence? A youtube video is your evidence? Do you even know what a "tabernacle" is? We have EXPLICIT architectural dimensions of the very first tabernacle (built by Moses by the way) both in the bible and historical books . . .

and just so we are clear, Abraham built an altar of stones for burnt offerings NOT a tabernacle.

anty Plappville,

if to say u fit come lagos,i go show u for where babalawo dey carry bible and they command "in the name of Jesus" and dey even worship Jehovah as him "chief god".

for that reason,wey i show,u suppose to accept say Jehovah and Jesus don become "chief idols" so you and all the Jesus-worshippers for dis world una don become idol worshipper too.or e go better say mek una stop to claim say Jesus na una "lord and saviour" becuz babalawo too dey claim Jesus and both Jesus and Jehovah don become "chief idols".

i hope say na one too make sense for your olodo head.

Always diverting! Muhammed kept the former name of the Chief Idol till date.
Is this hard to accept the truth? If he have not used this logic, Islam wouldnt ve been accepted by the Meccans.
Muhammed, used all he has to Form Islam by force. Although he didnt do it alone. The chief thief was in help spiritually.

Those people using the bible are even smaller, didnt u know that Satan, thier master also used the bible qoutes to tempt Jesus?
U and @Sweetnecta must learn to respect the public. Yoruba is not an official language in Nigeria. Writhing it to none Yorubas is rubbish. Becos, i dont care about what the meaning is.

Mr. Davidylan has not gotten it in his head that the Bible called David an evil man by being a murderer and a wife snatcher, yet it this man they Davidylan is named after, also being the man of honor so that Jesus can have a somewhat royal blood in him.

I said the above to say that each step the Bible goofed, hence its condemnation of Ishmael was a fluke, just as many other, including the unfulfilled 3 days and 3 nights of Jesus.

Then he Davidylan and madame plappville wanted a historic evidence that Ishmael lived in Makka, considering that the spring of life; Zam zam is still standing in Makka and the oldest structure dedicated to the worship of God, the Ka'aba is still standing in Makka.

These two idol worshipers of cross, etc of man god are asking me about evidence, as if they have evidence that Ishmael didn't live in Makka, maybe they can point to the well that nursed the 14 years old lad to become father of nations and definitely received his blessing, that Yahweh promised.

Can you people tell me where Adam [as] and Eve lived, with archeological evidence? How about Abraham and others, including Jacob who defeated your God and all of your jews and christians in a single wrestling match?

Thin people. Darn pagans like 9ja pagan. You need another animal sacrifice as another accursed soul? I know that animal is enough for you.

Davidylan is the fake nairaland "archaeologist".he opens his big mouth everytime about archaeology as if Jesus wrote a book on archaeology.

this is what Davidylan said in another thread:

There are actually 14 disputed locations for the biblical mt Sinai according to archaeologists and treasure seekers

did you see the word "disputed"?

you can see more on his archaeological christian missinary hallucinations below:

https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-804239.64.html#msg9640336

there are 14 disputed locations for mt.sinai alone according to archaeologists is what Davidylan said.he still does not question the existence of mt.sinai and the bible story about it that Moses was there.yet he questions the Quran for saying Abraham was in Makkah because according to him there is no archaeological evidence.and this blind missionary himself reads in his bible that both Hagar and Ishmael were in the wilderness of paran which is in arabia.so is it then impossible for Abraham too to have being there at least for a visit to his son?

plappville:

Always diverting! Muhammed kept the former name of the Chief Idol till date.
Is this hard to accept the truth? If he have not used this logic, Islam wouldnt ve been accepted by the Meccans.
Muhammed, used all he has to Form Islam by force. Although he didnt do it alone. The chief thief was in help spiritually.

Those people using the bible are even smaller, didnt u know that Satan, thier master also used the bible qoutes to tempt Jesus?
U and @Sweetnecta must learn to respect the public. Yoruba is not an official language in Nigeria. Writhing it to none Yorubas is rubbish. Becos, i dont care about what the meaning is.

just like the devil also quotes the bible,the arabian pagans also used the name of Allah in vain.

no they didnt. you were not present there. your ancestors were Pagan too till a few 100 yrs back.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Oga,go sleep! pagan hallucinations are not taken seriously.just mind your business around here and engage miscreants like frosbel and co. there is really no basis for us to discuss because i either see it useless or needless.the difference is clear.you can hang on the nairaland christian missionaries because you share at least a thing common:human sacrifice!

^^^^^^^^^^^^

yes and you dont sacrifice humans. you are too good for that. you just conduct plain massacres. simple and easier.