pearl,

I hope you have put the point across better than I have. Lets calm down and discuss. And tell each other bitter truths. This is nairaland.

t4cash: Calm down. Most of these your accusations and insinuations are just pure anger and are not synopses of my post. This is not a bolekaja. We are having an intellectual discussion. Be reflexive. Focus on my argument and attack my facts and logic.

And what argument is that? facts and logic? where are they? You have been incoherent throughout. To remind you the argument, in your previous post, you presumed without any proof, that people will vote for colonialism in a referendum even though you wont and I asked how do you know that people will vote for colonialism in a referendum? This remained unanswered and instead you lurched into self recrimination of type "i am the problem" and that we are blaming the white man.

And now again you're saying without "facts and logic" that people say "Maybe Abacha's regime was better?" Which people are saying it? Where are they saying it? Are they saying it at beer parlors? Or is it the consensus view of professional bodies like NLC, NBA, NUJ etc?

Demmy.

I snatch your babe?

yes you did

Rhod dear,

are you here to back me up or to join in punching me out?

both!! just kidding ask me what this is all about, i have no idea

No you didn't . If I sounded hard I didn't mean to. But seriously the type of argument you are making doesn't encourage the process of nation building. I don't blame colonialism for Africa's woes but I also won't suggest return to it under any circumstances. Besides most of what we percieved as gains of colonialism were actually from the missionaries and not from the colonial administration itself which was merely for exploitation.

@Demmy

I think that T-cash is making a very bold argument. The truth is that even in today's Nigeria, most people would rather work for a white man, than an indigene. I really think that Tony Blair would beat many respected Nigerians in a national election, if the vote was free and fair. You can blame colonialism for a lot of things, but the fact of the matter is that the country is worse off today than ever in our independent history.

He(Tcash) may not have made the most eloquent argument, but i think his point is very controversial, but sadly true.

Controversial but sadly true.

T4

I think it is hard for you to make your argument because everyone is equating colonial masters, to white people and/or race. I think if people could look beyond race, and stick to the topic, your argument would become clearer.

Old Glory:

T4

I think it is hard for you to make your argument because everyone is equating colonial masters, to white people and/or race. I think if people could look beyond race, and stick to the topic, your argument would become clearer.

Some comments are bound to make you wonder! How can you separate colonialism from race? It's the same as trying to claim slavery was not based on race which we know clearly was and still exists today! We were colonised by racists in white skin whose ideology remains that of "white superiority" if not why did the brits not go and colonise AND enslave the Germans or the Polish?

see http://www.wsu.edu/~dee/DIASPORA/RACIAL.HTM
http://www.millionsforreparations.com/colonialism.html - Colonialism is Racism

My brothers, information is just a click of a mouse button away. Don't let ignorance get the better of us. We have bad govts yes but at least we are free. If we had endured the untold hardships, humiliation and suffering that African-Americans had to endure up till the early 70s and 80s, those of us clamoring for colonialism would be having a rethink!

OK let me have a go at this again.

@David

I am not ignorant at all in this case. I am just responding directly to the topic literally. The point is that Colonialism was good for Nigeria in many ways and had it's disadvantages. Forget for one moment for the sake of debate the race of the people that colonized Nigeria. Say we were colonized by Kenyans. All i am saying is that post colonialism or so called "Freedom" has been a nightmare for millions of Nigerians. Many of our parents/grand parents would testify that pre colonial times were some of the best times of their lives. Education was sophisticated, the economy was strong,inflation was under control etc. Today i can make an argument that the average Nigerian in Nigeria is not "Free".

There is Police brutality, there is no recourse in the courts when you are wronged, there is no justice for the citizenry. This is level of black on black crime is at the highest level in the history of the country(Pre and Post colonialism). For the last 46 years we have run the country by ourselves right? We have tried democracy, we have done the military route, we have had dictatorships ETC and it has not worked very well. The topic is "Wasn't colonialism A good thing in a way"? I think that T4 is trying to argue in the Literal sense that it was good in many ways and i agree.

Now if you asked me if White's are Superior to Blacks, i will say that is an argument for another day, and ask if we could meet in bar in NYC and debate that over some domestic beer and peanuts, all on your tab.

Now if you asked me if White's are Superior to Blacks, i will say that is an argument for another day, and ask if we could meet in bar in NYC and debate that over some domestic beer and peanuts, all on your tab.

no be only on my tab o, na on my whole salary too!

Newayz i agree things were better but my brother we do not want those pale faced fellas running our lives again. Our govt is the Hand of Esau and the voice of Jacob! They are the reason we are were we are today!
chikena! i argue no more!

Colonialism was never and will never be considered a good thing in my books, before we were colonised we had systems that worked although we had some bad cultural practices which i am sure we would have matured out ( i mean even the europeans have some rather shameful parctices in the past). In my opinion colonialism helped to corrode our system and helped to entrench a complex of inferiority in the black race. It's staring at us everywhere, i mean even our movie stars in nigeria want to speak like americans tell me what is wrong with speaking like a nigerian u'd rather be seen eating bacon and eggs as opposed to Akamu and moinmoin. Agbada in not suitable for a work environment but a suit is, the old system of installing kings is not good but democracy is (well look what good democracy is doing in nigeria!!) and an Ogun worshipper is an object of ridicule but a xtian is worthy of exemplary status (Think Fani-Kayode the Abuja rottweiler). Please this is an old wound don't let us start picking the scabs

Old Glory,

Thanks for kowaciating my post.

For posterity sake, let me re-emphasize that I will not personally support re-colonization. But I suspect that, sadly, given the present state of despondency, it would be a popular idea. & anyone of us abandoning Nigeria (or even playing visa lottery) has already voted to be governed by Westerners (with our feet).

As our people would say "Half bread is better than none." As a democrat, you must take the popular sentiments seriously whether or not you agree with them.

It behoves the enlightened ones amongst us, who know that the west will never mean us good, to struggle to reverse such sentiments.

Especially because the West, as I said, do not need to place a white man in Abuja in order to re-colonize us. If they know our leaders are totally unpopular, they will overthrow our government (through various means) and install a puppet. 21st century colonization has taken place all over the world. Not just by force (as in Iraq) but through "popular revolutions" in several ex-Soviet countries. They now call it "liberation." Our oil makes us too important to be left alone in a crisis of leadership.

Old Glory: @Demmy

I think that T-cash is making a very bold argument. The truth is that even in today's Nigeria, most people would rather work for a white man, than an indigene.

Here we go again. The truth? how is this the truth? Is this "truth" based on some survey or simply your own opinion/feelings?

Old Glory:
I really think that Tony Blair would beat many respected Nigerians in a national election, if the vote was free and fair. You can blame colonialism for a lot of things, but the fact of the matter is that the country is worse off today than ever in our independent history.

The question t4cash raised was will Nigerians vote for return to colonization in a referendum? Not Tony Blair. Before you can get to vote for Tony Blair either one of 2 things must hold. Either you are a British citizen or Tony Blair is a Nigerian. Now under colonization you're not a citizen of your colonizing country, you're their subject and subjects don't get to vote for British PM instead you would still have to vote for the same present idiots who would rule you indirectly on behalf of British PM and its royal family. Note that.

Old Glory:
Many of our parents/grand parents would testify that pre colonial times were some of the best times of their lives. Education was sophisticated, the economy was strong,inflation was under control etc. Today i can make an argument that the average Nigerian in Nigeria is not "Free".

You can't meant pre colonial times here can you?

Old Glory:
There is Police brutality, there is no recourse in the courts when you are wronged, there is no justice for the citizenry. This is level of black on black crime is at the highest level in the history of the country(Pre and Post colonialism).

How many Nigerians really make recourse to courts when they are wronged? very very few. Ordinary Nigerians don't know their right talk less of asserting it. Instead they complicitly allowed the wrong to go on. But there is justice when you know your rights and how to go about defending them. I have personal experience of this. Our problem is we expect the system to work "automatically" while we do nothing. No. We would have to fight for our rights even under democracy. Gani Fawehinmi had to take government to court before more political parties were registered in 2002 for instance. This means we can't take rights for granted at least not until they are totally well established.

Old Glory:
For the last 46 years we have run the country by ourselves right? We have tried democracy, we have done the military route, we have had dictatorships ETC and it has not worked very well. The topic is "Wasn't colonialism A good thing in a way"? I think that T4 is trying to argue in the Literal sense that it was good in many ways and i agree.

Trying democracy is a wrong worldview. Democracy must be allowed wholesale and for the very long haul come rain or sun for it to work. Its a long tortured journey which we must be ready to endure. Our trials of democracy you pointed to were faulty. 5 years in the 60s, 4 years in the 80s and less than 8 years presently and we are already having second thoughts? No it won't do.

Take India it had her independent in 1947 after which it went through political, ethnic and religious turmoils with assasination after assasination of Prime ministers but you know what? they sticked with democracy through it all even when they were tottering on the brinks of war with Pakistan. 59 years of painful continous democratic road behind them! Now the worst is over as dividends of democracy rakes in. Democracy is not easy. It means conflicts after conflicts which could be resolve only through democratic means not repressed or jettisson democracy as unworkable.

So the answer is not to revise gains of derogatory system like colonization but to be ready to use the opportunities of the democracy we now have and help it grow.

Sorry demmy, Please no offence, jor, kpele, but ehmmm can you update your profile let's know where you are located? Thank you Sir!

@demmy
[quoteyou can't mean precolonial times,can you?]
Of course it means precolonial times.IWhy don't you talk to your grannies and ask them to tell you about their lives under the British.The system  worked better than now.
Let's take educational system for instance.The university of Ibadan in the 50's and 60's even up to 1970's was a pride not just of Nigeria,but the whole of the commonwealth.The graduates of UI then compared favourably to graduates elsewhere.What is the state of things there today?Try to find out when the rot set in.
What of the health system? a classmate of mine told me about the discussion she had with her grandfather who had limited education but lived under the British rule.He had gone to one of those hospitals established many years ago and he was not able to get help.The standard had fallen so badly compared to what it was before independence.The old man, according to my colleague asked her what was the use of the independence if it means one cannot even get drugs from the hospital,something that didnt happen when the Brits were in charge.

Please,when are we going to stop blaming colonialism for our woes.I know it's part of the baggage we must contend with but for heaven sake the Brits were in Asia,but today the Asians can now hold their heads high.We don't have to even go far we can look at some fellow African countries like Ghana and Botswana.
Is it colonialism that is responsible for large scale looting of our wealth and stashing it abroad while people languish in abject poverty?
Imagine the amount of money Abacha alone(and we know this because he died) looted put to education,health,power generation etc
I think on a deeper level,certainly for me,the purpose of this discussion is not about bringing the Brits back but about asking ourselves, why can't we be fairer to ourselves as a people and make the country a habitable place for everybody.

pearl2,

"precolonial times" refers to the time before we were colonized.

You are using it when you mean to say "colonial" times , i.e. when we were colonized. Got it?

Yea, got it thanks.Meant to say colonial times

Of course it means precolonial times.

??

IWhy don't you talk to your grannies and ask them to tell you about their lives under the British.The system worked better than now.

Why don't you ask Enahoro why he made a motion for Nigeria's independence.

Let's take educational system for instance.The university of Ibadan in the 50's and 60's even up to 1970's was a pride not just of Nigeria,but the whole of the commonwealth.The graduates of UI then compared favourably to graduates elsewhere.What is the state of things there today?Try to find out when the rot set in.
What of the health system? a classmate of mine told me about the discussion she had with her grandfather who had limited education but lived under the British rule.He had gone to one of those hospitals established many years ago and he was not able to get help.The standard had fallen so badly compared to what it was before independence.The old man, according to my colleague asked her what was the use of the independence if it means one cannot even get drugs from the hospital,something that didnt happen when the Brits were in charge.

These showed what? Have you ever pondered why things turned out the way they are today or you're simply lamenting and having colonial nostalgia?

Please,when are we going to stop blaming colonialism for our woes.

You're obviously unaware of the argument I'm having with t4cash.

@t4cash

Iam in Greece even though I don't know the relevance of this to the discussion.

@Demmy

Did Colonialism do any good for Nigeria? Try to give a one word answer please.

Old Glory:

@Demmy

Did Colonialism do any good for Nigeria? Try to give a one word answer please.

no.

America was once a colony of Britain and so was India, Ghana, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, and all other Commonwealth countries. Will all the above mentioned nations wish to revert to their colonial status today? No!

Why? Where things not okay during the colonisation?

The problems of Nigeria are rooted in the evil of colonialism. Of all the commonwealth countries, only African Nations had their boundaries drawn for them. Only Africans where regarded as slaves, and treated so.

Another issue is that of poor leadership, we have been saddled with the worst form of individuals as leaders, it is those pple and not the genius of the colonialists that have put us in this mudhole that we find ourselves. The asians and indians on the other hand have been blessed with visionaries for leaders. Those who refused to be used by the same Western imperialists as tools to repress the freedom and development of their pple.
The same imperialists we now nostalgically want ot take over our govt.

Does someone think if the Brits came back today we'll suddenly become British citizens?
Let's assume Bush became Nigerian President today, would that automatically guarantee you free passage to the United States?
Sorry my brother, this same pple do not love us, they only profess so because of the tremendous resources we have at our back yard. Their ultimate concern is for their own pple and not us!

@demmy
'These showed what? Have you ever pondered why things turned out the way they are today or you're simply lamenting and having colonial nostalgia'.
It showed that the Brits managed the educational system,the health system better than they are now.
So answer why did things turn out the way they did.Am a product of that university system,and I know the Brits were not responsible for the bastardization of the system.
'Why don't you ask  Enahoro why he made a motion for Nigeria independence'
It will be better still if you can lay your hand on one of the interviews granted by the old man lately and read of his lamentations of the state of things in Nigeria.I've read some  and you will hear him talk of his disappointment about the blasted hope Nigeria is.

OH BOY OH BOY here we go. The last time a check history didnt Africans thought the rest of the world civilization, including demacracy?

Different people are arguing diferent things in this thread. I apologise for being one of them.

The topic is "Wasnt colonialism a Good Thing in a way?"

@pearl2

Everybody decry the state of the nation including Enahoro, what they don't do is wishing return to colonialism.

If the structures of government colonialism laid out in Africa were so good why did they crumbled almost immediately at independent? Looking beyond the purported 'gains' will immediately make it clear that things 'seemed' to work during colonial times because it was convenience for colonial administration for them to work. It was in theire interest not ours. You should remember also that Africa was coming straight from traditional system so everything was 'new' and of course 'good'. People couldn't be corrupt even if they wanted to. Many were illitrates still learning the new system. There was lack of adequate checks and balance and the only bulwark against corruption in those days were the colonial masters themselves and the innocence of the natives no other institutions. The country was conveniently partition into 3 regions for administrative purposes even though logic required more with effect that outside of the three regional capitals and Lagos the rest of the country were rural areas.
And of course the effects of their divide and rule tactics are still resonating till today. That the North still believe it is more populous than South is one of these when all evidences show otherwise.

Africa during colonialism was build on sand. This should be clear if you can look deeper beyond the decieving gains.

@Demmy

Nobody is proposing for the return of colonail masters. All i am saying is that colonial times laid a lot of ground work for a functional society. During that time, solid institutions were built in the country and the country was on some kind of "Auto Pilot". Law and Justice was for all not only for the wealthy.Education,Healthcare,Pension, per capita income,life expectancy, was better than it is today .Now after the keys to the barn were handed over to the indigenes, well i will let you narrate today's tale.

AS I said earlier, we have switched the topic to one of comparativeness. We are now arguing on whether Colonial times were better than our post-colonial times (the pre-colonial times are not relevant to this comparison). 

Demmy your stance seems clearly: "Compared to our situation post-Independence, colonial times was worse." Am I right?

Also by stating

demmy:

Everybody decry the state of the nation including Enahoro, what they don't do is wishing return to colonialism.

you are doing what you said others should not do by assuming unscientifically. Based on what poll are you quoting "everyone"? I respect your position, and your right to take it.But You can ask several people off line, preferably those who knew both times, (and have to live in Nigeria), their opinions and get back to us on the majority opinion from your survey. 

Of course the best solution to our present problems need not be re-colonization by foreigners. Colonization is necessarily bad for the colonies- a foreigner can not appreciate your culture, race or sensitivities. What I meant was that given the present "colonization" by our indegeneous colonialists -the Chris Uba's etc - who have colonized us into their families'economic systems and being re-colonized by foreigners, based on the results, most people will choose the latter. I am not calling for it. I am just saying that "given a choice". Democracy is about the majority sentiment.

Gani and Enahoro have not proven popular at the polls (even if you discount the rigging). The majority does not always know what is good for it.

t4cash: Demmy your stance seems clearly: "Compared to our situation post-Independence, colonial times was worse." Am I right?

No. This is not my stance at all. The argument I'm having with you is to attack your nihilistic pessimism over the state of Nigeria on one level and on the other to show to you that the problem plaguing us today has deeper root that run back all the way to the colonial period which you think was better. I am not making any comparision between the periods.

Old Glory:
@Demmy

Nobody is proposing for the return of colonail masters. All i am saying is that colonial times laid a lot of ground work for a functional society. During that time, solid institutions were built in the country and the country was on some kind of "Auto Pilot". Law and Justice was for all not only for the wealthy.Education,Healthcare,Pension, per capita income,life expectancy, was better than it is today .Now after the keys to the barn were handed over to the indigenes, well i will let you narrate today's tale.

You're still repeating same story. Move on now and explain to us why the "ground work for a functional society" laid by colonial times crumbled immediately after independence. If the groundwork was so solid as you are arguing merely handing keys to the indigenes need not wrecked it right away now correct? Or maybe the solid education that you're praising as gain of colonialism recieved by these indigenes (who were handed the keys) from these solid colonial institutions was not so solid afterall? Which is it?

Without colonism African countries would have all that it have now and much much more technologically wise and otherwise. To think otherwise means that you don't know nothing about African history, or your own history.

technology didn't just come about by whites, ALL RACES CONTRIBUTED TO IT. Your own Philip Emeagwali  made great contribution to the internet. The Yoruba's where making iron long before Europeans. Africans did not exist in a little box by themself's they traded all over the world long before colonism but racists would want to have you believing otherwise. Don't forget the contributions ancient Kemet (known as Egypt today) made to the Greeks and Roman and in turn the rest of Europe and even enslaved them before they enslaved us.

What might seem like Black rule after colonism was/is still white rule by intitutions like the IMF and WB and vicious greedy Black puppets, while they kill leaders like Patrice Lamumba who believe African wealths belong to Africans and resist neocolonism/colonism. Don't forget Kwamy Nkrumah who tell us if we don't abandon these colonial made mini state NOW for one united Africa we are making a HUGE mistake, the western world hated him. These are the kind of leaders African countries need and is been denied and continue to. Thats why some of us are confused now thinking that Africa should return to racists colonism to solved its problems that as been created by racists colonism for the most part in the first place.

One of Black countries biggest mistake after colonism was to look to those who colonized and enslaved us for redevelopment when they were the ones who underdevelop us in the first place, what they did was/is just take advantage of the situation and made matters even worst.