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I embedded the vid.

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He said some parts of Africa had not invented the WHEEL by the 19th century. Meaning that Africans had no capacity to develop which is why we're poor and Europeans wealthy. African contact with Europe improved Africans living standard. Do you buy this??

So the over flogged argument that Europeans stole and pillaged the African continent is baseless in this esteemed economist's view. DO you think Africans gained or lost from contact with Europeans

gadogado:

He said some parts of Africa had not invented the WHEEL by the 19th century. Meaning that Africans had no capacity to develop which is why we're poor and Europeans wealthy. African contact with Europe improved Africans living standard. Do you buy this??

It depends on the part of the continent. We Africans are not truly a one united monolithic people. We are made up different cultures, languages, religions and heritages. Some of us had the wheel while others didn't. Some had bronze making capability while others didn't. The bushmen of Southern Africa did not have these tools yet the Zulu did and live in the same region.

gadogado:

So the over flogged argument that Europeans stole and pillaged the African continent is baseless in this esteemed economist's view. DO you think Africans gained or lost from contact with Europeans

At the time the Portuguese came to West Africa, there was no difference in technological advancement. The Europeans of the time were especially baffled by West African technologies; a great example is our brand of cire perdue (lost-wax casting); a casting technique that overshadowed anything similar in Europe of that period; they were baffled by the fact that both the Edo and Ife peoples could cast copper to incredible detail and thinness of cross section. It was an impossibility in Europe of the time; copper is a metal a very reactive metal is almost impossible to cast, talkless of the fine achievements of Benin and Ife. Today, we have no such technological edge in any field.

Did we lose from contact with Europeans? . . .The answer is quite glaring.
Slavery and negative contact with Europeans are the main factors in our past that have contributed todays low self esteem, poverty and under-development.

EzeUche22:

It depends on the part of the continent. We Africans are not truly a one united monolithic people. We are made up different cultures, languages, religions and heritages. Some of us had the wheel while others didn't. Some had bronze making capability while others didn't. The bushmen of Southern Africa did not have these tools yet the Zulu did and live in the same region.

Ok but the principle of what he's saying isn't changed by what you just said, Africans gained from European contact and African poverty is a direct result of their own lack of intellectual capacity. This in a nut shell is what he was saying, The wheel being an example of the lack of capacity which is related to poverty. He implied that it cost Europeans more to maintain colonies. In other words, if they were businesses then colonialism would be written as a loss to the europeans.

Beaf:

At the time the Portuguese came to West Africa, there was no difference in technological advancement. The Europeans of the time were especially baffled by West African technologies; a great example is our brand of cire perdue (lost-wax casting); a casting technique that overshadowed anything similar in Europe of that period; they were baffled by the fact that both the Edo and Ife peoples could cast copper to incredible detail and thinness of cross section. It was an impossibility in Europe of the time; copper is a metal a very reactive metal is almost impossible to cast, talkless of the fine achievements of Benin and Ife. Today, we have no such technological edge in any field.

Did we lose from contact with Europeans? . . .The answer is quite glaring.
Slavery and negative contact with Europeans are the main factors in our past that have contributed todays low self esteem, poverty and under-development.

As much as id like to believe you, i think what they found baffling was that blacks had attained that level of metallurgic sophistication. Not because Benin or Ife had better technology. Thats just not true, Europeans were way ahead of us in a general sense. your argument is a fallacy actually since you're implying that skill in bronze casting etc translates to the same level of general technological advancement which is not true. Your inductive line of reasoning is flawed. Fact is they had guns and were able to colonize us. They were by far more advanced.

gadogado:

As much as id like to believe you, i think what they found baffling was that blacks had attained that level of metallurgic sophistication. Not because Benin or Ife had better technology. Thats just not true, Europeans were way ahead of us in a general sense. your argument is a fallacy actually since you're implying that skill in bronze casting etc translates to the same level of general technological advancement which is not true. Your inductive line of reasoning is flawed. Fact is they had guns and were able to colonize us. They were by far more advanced.

Its not hard to find out if you mean to. So I'll not join the argument. Just go find out from your own history first, then check if any Europeans were casting copper at the time. It is left to you to deny without even checking, but hey! I'm cool.

For me, the argument stops here, I don't want to be depressed.

gadogado:

He said some parts of Africa had not invented the WHEEL by the 19th century. Meaning that Africans had no capacity to develop which is why we're poor and Europeans wealthy. African contact with Europe improved Africans living standard. Do you buy this??

That argument is not strong enough to say conclude that had no capacity to develop. I agree we developed as a result of colonialism but the white man gained a lot more .

gadogado:

Ok but the principle of what he's saying isn't changed by what you just said, Africans gained from European contact and African poverty is a direct result of their own lack of intellectual capacity. This in a nut shell is what he was saying, The wheel being an example of the lack of capacity which is related to poverty. He implied that it cost Europeans more to maintain colonies. In other words, if they were businesses then colonialism would be written as a loss to the europeans.

What exactly do you define intellectual capacity? I feel that your definition is extremely biased. So Africans did not have the same technological advancement as Europeans and Europeans did not have the same technological advancement as the Japanese. I don't think that makes Africans less intellectually capable than Europeans in everything. I think however, that Europeans are artisans of manipulations.

gadogado:

Ok but the principle of what he's saying isn't changed by what you just said, Africans gained from European contact and African poverty is a direct result of their own lack of intellectual capacity. This in a nut shell is what he was saying, The wheel being an example of the lack of capacity which is related to poverty. He implied that it cost Europeans more to maintain colonies. In other words, if they were businesses then colonialism would be written as a loss to the europeans.

You're all kinds of wrong for the bolded. The general human intellectual capacity is the same across the board. On the topic of technological development, the most significant factor is diffusion. The advancements that we see now today, are nothing more than simple ideas which diffused from a point and later evolved (as in, had other simple ideas added on to them). Diffusion is what allowed for the kind of technological advancement we witness today. Without such diffusion, then much of the world would also be like Africa (which got into the diffusion game rather late).

To respond to the initial posting, colonialism definitely has its advantages, but it also disadvantaged Africa[ns] (to be specific).

[size=25pt]If someone comes to you, and tells you that you are stu'píd and you believe him that you are stú'p'id, then you truly must be stu''pid!!!![/size]

intellectual capacity as in- The wheel is said to be the mother of invention and innovation of mankind. All inventions and technology began with the simple concept of the wheel when it was first invented some 5 thousand years ago. What friedman was saying was that some Africans had not individually or within their own group figured out the concept of a "wheel" let alone any other type of technology. This means they lack the capacity to develop and evolve on their own. This is what he implied.

dont over simplify this guy. The question is, did the man have a point if we are to be honest with ourselves? the fact that he says europeans gained little from colonialism and that africans gained more that europeans did as a result of the contact between the two. look all the human development indices before and after european contact, he said africans gained a much higher standard of living due to contact with europeans, is he right

ChinenyeN:

You're all kinds of wrong for the bolded. The general human intellectual capacity is the same across the board. On the topic of technological development, the most significant factor is diffusion. The advancements that we see now today, are nothing more than simple ideas which diffused from a point and later evolved (as in, had other simple ideas added on to them). Diffusion is what allowed for the kind of technological advancement we witness today. Without such diffusion, then much of the world would also be like Africa (which got into the diffusion game rather late).

To respond to the initial posting, colonialism definitely has its advantages, but it also disadvantaged Africa[ns] (to be specific).

So you agree that Africans lack capacity or Europeans had more capacity "early on in the game"

Beaf:

Its not hard to find out if you mean to. So I'll not join the argument. Just go find out from your own history first, then check if any Europeans were casting copper at the time. It is left to you to deny without even checking, but hey! I'm cool.

For me, the argument stops here, I don't want to be depressed.

accepting reality need not be depressing! Its just a realization that different groups of people are endowed with different gifts.

To answer this question accurately, you have to compare the standard of living of Africans pre and post the colonial era. Africans were much better off before the colonials came. Yes Africa has made some gains from the Europeans but the Europeans have gained much more and are still gaining much more. European society benefitted from slavery and colonisation.

The Europeans left Africa when they did, for their selfish and self-serving interests. It is no wonder that most new African governments fell in the 60s and 70s after independence. Angola fought a civil war for several decades in which the world powers took sides with both sides in the conflict and bled the country. The same thing happened in Congo, Nigeria, Liberia, South Africa, etc.

Inventing the wheel or not inventing the wheel, the Europeans stole from Africa. It is another argument whether our lack of development would have improved our standard of living or not. But as for contact with Europeans, we are worse off. We may have been better off if they came to assist and not to loot. See the article below about Haiti as an example.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/ben_macintyre/article6995750.ece

Katsumoto:

To answer this question accurately, you have to compare the standard of living of Africans pre and post the colonial era. Africans were much better off before the colonials came. Yes Africa has made some gains from the Europeans but the Europeans have gained much more and are still gaining much more. European society benefitted from slavery and colonisation.

The Europeans left Africa when they left for there selfish reason. It is no wonder that most new African governments fell in the 60s and 70s after independence. Angola fought a civil war for several decades in which the world powers took sides with both sides in the conflict and bled the country. The same thing happened in Congo, Nigeria, Liberia, South Africa, etc.

Inventing the wheel or not inventing the wheel, the Europeans stole from Africa. It is another argument whether our lack of development would have improved our standard of living or not. But as for contact with Europeans, we are worse off. We may have been better off if they came to assist and not to loot. See the article below about Haiti as an example.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/ben_macintyre/article6995750.ece

I think its pretty clear that gadogado thinks he is stup'ider than everyone else so theres no need trying to convince him otherwise.

Na wah oo.We need to start thinking o.

Who really are we?

gadogado:

So you agree that Africans lack capacity or Europeans had more capacity "early on in the game"

You're using all the wrong words. This isn't about intelligence capacity. This has nothing to do with intelligence capacity.

It is about the present and not the past.


Friedman would not have made this assertion if our present was a little different. It's not about the past folks, because everyone has some form of undeveloped past, Europe itself had to learn somethings from the Arabs and they ran with it.


Giving our culture of not documenting anything, it's not possible to have accurate accounts of where we were pre and post colonization, therefore we are left with what they tell us. Through hygiene and modern medicine introduced by the colonials some diseases and health conditions were better understood, so also are barbaric practices like killing of twins - ironically we worship twins now with beans and palm-oil. But we can see ancient civilizations in Chinese, European architecture.


It was not only Africa that was colonized, the USA, Canada, Australia, India, Hong Kong, etc were similarly colonized at one point or another. In fact Britain left Hong Kong in 1991.


We have stuck in the same place they left us in the 60s.


I think we need to encourage a broader debate on this topic than we are currently allowing, attempts by some to insinuate that we are less endowed in brain or that we had superior civilization than the white are simplistic. This is a fundamental issue than we are allowing. It is a debate on who we are. We need to get that straight first.

gadogado:

accepting reality need not be depressing! Its just a realization that different groups of people are endowed with different gifts.

One of my gifts is a photographic memory. I recall an argument we had about Arabic inscriptions on the Naira. . . You claimed not to be black, but to be Shuwa Arab. All you are doing here is playing a racist game.

Perhaps your wifee didn't cook for you and locked you outside, so you want to take it out on black people. Na wa!
Shame on you and all racists.

Sharon_f:

I think its pretty clear that gadogado thinks he is stup'ider than everyone else so theres no need trying to convince him otherwise.

There is no need to INSULT him for having a view different from yours. He is not telling you of himself but simply seeking, as we all are, for another more meaningful reason for why a whole continent continents to lag behind.

Beaf:

One of my gifts is a photographic memory. I recall an argument we had about Arabic inscriptions on the Naira. . . You claimed not to be black, but to be Shuwa Arab. All you are doing here is playing a racist game.

Perhaps your wifee didn't cook for you and locked you outside, so you want to take it out on black people. Na wa!
Shame on you and all racists.

    I was wondering why nobody picked up the glaring "we blacks" gaffe.

We are deceiving ourselves if we think we were more advanced or at equal level intelligence wise with the Europeans during the colonial era. And there is no doubt in my mind that the Europeans gained from Africans more than African gained through the use of free labor to tilt their farms, unfair trade practices, importing our natural resources and giving us over inflated manufactured products, which we have gotten so accustomed to these days.

Ever wonder why we never match up to Europe and colonize them? We do have Ijaws who are good at boat building.

Britain is nothing without all those colonies that they have from India to Nigeria

gadogado:

He said some parts of Africa had not invented the WHEEL by the 19th century. Meaning that Africans had no capacity to develop which is why we're poor and Europeans wealthy. African contact with Europe improved Africans living standard. Do you buy this??

Why don't we just bring all able bodied Europeans to work in Africa for free, for 400 years, after which we will ship them back. Then we can analyze who has benefited more from this arrangement.
Nonsense.

Many Africans are incapable of self-criticism and are emotional about everything. That is a major reason why the continent remains underdeveloped


1  First of all Africa is a very diverse continent full of different people. Not all Africans even have dark skin colour (black) and not all Africans lived in similar societies.

2 We gained Literacy by coming in contact with the European civilization. Our society was never going to become a complex society without the Europeans introducing the concept of literacy to us.

3 Societies are judged by how complex they are. This is why nobody could deny Asian achievements. Nobody was going to respect a group of people who have no idea what it means to be literate and live in mud and tatch houses.

4 Illiteracy happened to be a bane on development. It has forever set the continent back. The only way to achieve recognition is to shape the present or future for the better

5 In the grand scheme of things the above video is irrelevant, and so are people who keep complaining about exploitation.



Before the Europeans came a lot of African societies could not practice Statistics, Geometry and Trignometry, Engineering in a written form etc. These are concepts that helped societies develop more complex structures and amazing construction.



In conclusion we are the architects of all our problems including the video above. When a society embraces illiteracy for generations and thousands of years, the society is inviting scorn on itself

Aigbofa:


Why don't we just bring all able bodied Europeans to work in Africa for free, for 400 years, after which we will ship them back. Then we can analyze who has benefited more from this arrangement.
Nonsense.

what exactly stopped you from doing that 400 years ago? What stops you from doing that today?

You think Europe was not colonized and Europeans were not maltreated for centuries?

I think we are worse off. Just look at the artistic capabilities of Ife and Benin and now look at what their descendants can produce and weep!

While the Europeans were painting their faces blue and killing each other mercilessly, we were building cities, providing for our people and had a better value system.

sage:

what exactly stopped you from doing that 400 years ago? What stops you from doing that today?

You think Europe was not colonized and Europeans were not maltreated for centuries?

Europe was never colonized!

Only Asia, Africa and the Americas. (Case in America, most of the native people were wiped out) The world would have been a better place if Europe was never there.

Wherever Europeans went, they brought death and destruction from India to China. From Vietnam to Ethiopia.

EzeUche22:

Europe was never colonized! 

Only Asia, Africa and the Americas. (Case in America, most of the native people were wiped out) The world would have been a better place if Europe was never there.

Wherever Europeans went, they brought death and destruction from India to China. From Vietnam to Ethiopia.

You need to read about 100's of years of Muslim rule and mistreatment of many Europeans till the Europeans expelled them by force


While we cold not read or write Europe was conquering the next frontier. Electricity, steam engines, trains, the telegraph, telephones, airplanes etc

Non of these were we going to discover by ourselves

We could not even make ourselves literate for thousands of years and we had to borrow their letters to express our thoughts