Wait, Dak., you said you only speak Yoruba to illiterates. The last time I checked, knowing how to speak a language does not have anything to do with being an illiterate or not. I thot illiteracy meant, not able to read or write .

Anyway, not to change the topic, I still stand by my words, if you are in Nigeria and you are forming ajebutter, and you think your native language stink and the only one you want to know how to speak is English, then in my opinion, you are short-changing yourself.

My point exactly: Tell me *how* I am shortchanging myself.

I am not trying to convert anyone to my cause, I am *asking* others to *please* explain the relevance of this *without* resorting to a sentimental argument. A *practical* reason. Something of *tangible* benefit.

So far, nothing but people taking offense. Perhaps I shouldnt bother anymore, seeing as my point has already been proven.

Yes, I meant illiterate. Since Yoruba is NOT a written language (whatever S.A.Crowther says), a person who speaks Yoruba alone is illiterate. If a person can speak English, I speak to him in English. Not because the language stinks (far from it, in fact I am fond of it, but in a sentimental way. Afterall it *is* my language) but because TRIBALISM stinks, and I hate tribalism with every fibre of my being.

I stepped out of this thread b'because I really do not have a flair for arguments. But with what you just said I need to ask a question- does speaking yoruba make you tribalistic?. If were are trying to argue this way that the Yoruba language makes people tribalistic then in order to stop tribalism we have to get rid of the 250 languages spoken in Nigeria - this includes Igbo and yes Hausa which is not only spoken in Nigeria.
"By the way Yoruba is not only spoken in Nigeria though it is synonymous with southwestern Nigeria. Yoruba is spoken by about 35 million speakers, primarily in Nigeria, Benin and Togo. Many Yoruba speakers today also live in such countries as Ghana and Ivory Coast. Yoruba language elements survive among many descendants of former African slave populations in the Americas in Brazil, Cuba, Puerto Rico, North Carolina, and elsewhere in the Caribbean basin."
If Nigerians are not divided  by tribes we will be divided by religion or by lands. Our problem is beyond the native languages we speak.

Why do you consider the Yoruba language unwritten?. French and Spanish alphabets resemble the English alphabets as well. I doubt you can call those unwritten languages.

Speaking yoruba does not make you tribalistic.

Speaking one's native language in situations that do *not* expressly call for it, to the exclusion of non-native speakers of the language, that are nonetheless citizens of the same Nation, is a major contributor to tribalistic sentiment. You cannot argue with that.

Yoruba is unwritten because its notation is an invention of the modern age- and contributes nothing to the wealth of the culture, most of which exists in the form of oral traditions. Even worse is the fact that it is difficult to teach someone written Yoruba without teaching them English first, since the written form of the language is used next to nowhere outside of academia and modern literature.

Many modern languages that sue the same notation as English transitioned over the years from one writing style to another. Yoruba jumped straight from Oral traditions to a copy of the english alphabet, in the modern age.

Oral traditions are absolute rubbish in terms of accuracy. Thats why we can spend ages arguing with our Edo brethren about who went into the jungle to bring civilisation to who. Oral traditions my foot. More like a pack of god damned lies.

dakmanzero:

. Even worse is the fact that it is difficult to teach someone written Yoruba without teaching them English first, since the written form of the language is used next to nowhere outside of academia and modern literature.

I'll have to disagree with you on these. Not just because I think it's not the truth, but because I know people who don't understand English but read the Yoruba language fluently.

Like my late great-grand mother?

Religious texts such as the Bible and the quran were translated into the yoruba language. At a timeit was considered part of religious education to learn to read these texts in Yoruba.

This does qualify as literacy from a semantic point of view. I accept that point and agree to make an exception, but I will also like to point out that this approaches irrelevancy if the term 'illiterate' is not taken as a pejorative in the context used.

By Illiterate I mean unable to function in modern civilisation, due to a lack of education. A person whose education is purely religious in nature can therefore be considered illiterate in this case.

Can you honestly point to any of those people that you know and claim that they do not fall into the same category as an illiterate under practically every contemporary method of clasification?

i guess a lot of peeps feel strongly about this topic to post such "essays".
too bad it happens but that is part of the dynamism of migration and culture

And by modern civilization, what do you really mean, Dak.? Maybe once I get your definition of that, I can address you better.

modern = contemporary

civilisation = an advanced level of development in society that is marked by complex social and political organization, and material, scientific, and artistic progress (MSN encarta)

That should be sufficient.

dont know anything about yorubas not speaking yoruba,i only know they cant speak english

"nna pogi, na u tok turruuue mai brodda. "

"khei!!! it is take it pho di yolluba feefulle nefa sabi heengreesh atooolll!"

i think the problem is that many parents want there children to be "civilised"according to them and they therefore force their children to speak english language only.there is need for us as indegenious people to encourage our children to speak our mother tongue because it is part of our culture,grammer is not!

Heh fellas,no bucks! Dat is d visicitudes of life

Heh fellas,no bucks! Dat is d visicitudes of life

@adesupo,

I feel you. Besides your salient point, I think there are other problems to this whole affair. First, I don't think that being "civilized" is all about speaking English (grammar included or not). There are a lot of English people who are very uncivil in manners and outlook - truth be told.

Again, it is not only a concern about Yorubas in Nigeria who can't speak Yoruba. I know a few people who come from other parts of the country and have no clue about their own languages! I know a friend who was born and raised in Lagos; speaks Yoruba, Hausa, a bit of Ibo, and three international languages - but for crying out loud, he understands only catchy phrases and words in his own native language of Ibani (Rivers State)! I don't know what happened; but he tersely offers that he'd never been taken to visit his home town all of his life, and nobody ever taught him the language - not even his parents!

What really is the problem with our Nigerian languages? Are they dying out? Or, are people being more attracted to other non-Nigerian languages these days for the 'feel' and 'looks' they perceive about those languages? Take, for instance, some people who have the perception that speaking 'English' is synonymous with civilization or being "oyibo"!

Perhaps, it's just about time that we be proud of our heritage as a unique people. Whereever State we come from within Nigeria, we should speak our own languages well and confidently! Believe it or not, even oyibo man sef go bow when he listen to your own lingo!

dakmanzero:

Yoruba is unwritten because its notation is an invention of the modern age- and contributes nothing to the wealth of the culture, most of which exists in the form of oral traditions. Even worse is the fact that it is difficult to teach someone written Yoruba without teaching them English first, since the written form of the language is used next to nowhere outside of academia and modern literature.

Whaa-aa-aat??      

they are not yorubas,they are foreign slaves claiming to be yorubas

Its a shame when children can't speak their own language, wherever they were born. Its our heritage and the parents responsibility to hand it down, just like it was handed to them. Imagine being in a group of Igbos and not even having the choice to converse in Igbo, its a shame, and a direct reflection on how much some people devalue their language.

Now how will any of those people teach their children one day?

no-one calls yoruba uncivilized

it is merely irrelevant in the greater scheme of things, globally speaking.

most traditional languages exist as a way of preserving age-old traditions and cultures that define a people.

languages such as arabic and chinese are treasure troves to a wealth of centuries of rich culture.

however the total amount of written tradition held by yoruba is nil. All our traditions are oral. Written yoruba is a modern day contrivance. Oral traditions by definition will die if kept in an old, unwritten language.

Now, if you hold the opinion that oral tradition is somehow relevant, the solution is (was) to invent a writing system for yoruba and commence with the transcription. However in practice all that brought about was a wholesale rewriting of history by whoever was doing the documentation. In my opinion, ORAL TRADITION is a load of rubbish, since it is subject to the whims of whoever happens to be translating it at the time. The language in which it is documented thus becomes IRRELEVANT, as issues of translation have become inconsequential to the point of absurdity, why quibble about the meaning of a word when it was pulled out of the arse of whatever old man happened to be talkking to you at the moment?

so you can document oral traditions in any language at all. why then bother using the original language which has no prior use (since THIS is the use it should have).

Feeling pride in your culture is nice when you actually have a culture to be proud of. Like it or not, what most yorubas call their 'culture' nowadays is just a hodgepodge of influences from all around the region AND western culture, christianity and islam. There's nothing ancient or sacred about it since it changes with the wind. Feeling pride in your glass house wont stop it from being completely and utterly useless.

Nigerians should adopt an indigenous language and scrap all the others. All they do is foster tribalism as people form 'language cults' t the exclusion of non-speakers. If that language is english then so be it. If it is yoruba, thank GOD i dont have to learn some other language. If it is Igbo, all well and good. If it is Hausa at least we get the benefit of being able to converse with practically the entirety of northern Africa. Any language, but get rid of the stupid multiplicity of useless unwritten languages

dakmanzero:

no-one calls yoruba uncivilized

it is merely irrelevant in the greater scheme of things, globally speaking.

most traditional languages exist as a way of preserving age-old traditions and cultures that define a people.

languages such as arabic and chinese are treasure troves to a wealth of centuries of rich culture.

however the total amount of written tradition held by yoruba is nil. All our traditions are oral. Written yoruba is a modern day contrivance. Oral traditions by definition will die if kept in an old, unwritten language.

Now, if you hold the opinion that oral tradition is somehow relevant, the solution is (was) to invent a writing system for yoruba and commence with the transcription. However in practice all that brought about was a wholesale rewriting of history by whoever was doing the documentation. In my opinion, ORAL TRADITION is a load of rubbish, since it is subject to the whims of whoever happens to be translating it at the time. The language in which it is documented thus becomes IRRELEVANT, as issues of translation have become inconsequential to the point of absurdity, why quibble about the meaning of a word when it was pulled out of the arse of whatever old man happened to be talkking to you at the moment?

so you can document oral traditions in any language at all. why then bother using the original language which has no prior use (since THIS is the use it should have).

Feeling pride in your culture is nice when you actually have a culture to be proud of. Like it or not, what most yorubas call their 'culture' nowadays is just a hodgepodge of influences from all around the region AND western culture, christianity and islam. There's nothing ancient or sacred about it since it changes with the wind. Feeling pride in your glass house wont stop it from being completely and utterly useless.

Nigerians should adopt an indigenous language and scrap all the others. All they do is foster tribalism as people form 'language cults' t the exclusion of non-speakers. If that language is english then so be it. If it is yoruba, thank GOD i don't have to learn some other language. If it is Igbo, all well and good. If it is Hausa at least we get the benefit of being able to converse with practically the entirety of northern Africa. Any language, but get rid of the stupid multiplicity of useless unwritten languages

A long treatise by a man who knows little or next to nothing about his own Yoruba culture. How sad! I have met a lot of Yoruba folks and am sure glad that most of them do not think along the same lines!

Most cultures started with their oral traditions. Later, they were codified or put into written form by those who wanted to preserve certain aspects of such traditions for posterity.

All traditions are influenced to some extent, by those of others around them. Through the ages, people have made contact with various external influences and such influences had a way of diffusing into their own culture. Even those whose cultures draw heavily on written, laid down traditions or customs, have been modified to a large extent by external influences. So dismissing a whole culture as irrelevant, simply because it is not written is untenable.

If people whose cultures were previously unwritten, had chosen to throw their own culture down the drain simply because it relied heavily on oral tradition or unwritten lore, instead of writting it down, a lot of those cultures that many folks appreciate today, would be dead. Culture is dynamic, and it has a lot of influence on human identity (i.e. self-identity and an individual's world view). That is why a lot of nations try to preserve their own cultural history, artefacts, nomenclature and origins.

If you do not know where you are coming from, you may never get to know where you are going, neither will you be able to define where you will end up, eventually.

dude.

ya strawman argument holds as much water as a basket made out of aforementioned straw

Claiming i know next to nothing about my own culture (HAH!!!!! YEAH RIGHT!!!!) is avoiding the issue.

I say give me a real argument as to what makes these ancient languages relevant.

If the only arguments you can give are sentimental ones you only strengthen my point.

Tell me one advantage the language confers on a person besides enabling them function within whatever tribal clique happens to exist close by at the moment.

we should choose an indigenous language and relegate all other insignificant tribal dialects to the dustbin of history. There's no such language as 'Nigerian'. How shameful.

dakmanzero:

dude.

ya strawman argument holds as much water as a basket made out of aforementioned straw

Claiming i know next to nothing about my own culture (HAH!!!!! YEAH RIGHT!!!!) is avoiding the issue.

I say give me a real argument as to what makes these ancient languages relevant.

If the only arguments you can give are sentimental ones you only strengthen my point.

Tell me one advantage the language confers on a person besides enabling them function within whatever tribal clique happens to exist close by at the moment.

we should choose an indigenous language and relegate all other insignificant tribal dialects to the dustbin of history. There's no such language as 'Nigerian'. How shameful.

There is no ancient language that is irrelevant. Every language is a vehicle of ideas, form, content or ideology. All those ancient cultures whose languages are widely spoken today, did not suddenly appear on the horizon in written form from inception. Some metamorphosed from other languages or cultures, while others were codified gradually over a period of time. Languages such as English et al, took their etymology from Latin etc.

So not all cultures or languages made their debut, in a written form. The speakers of those languages popularised its' usage, and it gained wide aceptance. If you feel your own language isn't widely accepted, then propose ways to make it more useful, comercially viable, technically adequate or socially popular.

All over the world, being multi-lingual is seen as an asset. And some translators earn big bucks just to translate documents or acts as interpreters, for those who cannot speak more than one language.

As for the advantage that speaking one indigenous language confers on an individual, I believe I stated before that 'self-identity', is one. Another advantage is the influence it has on an individual's world-view. If you travel worldwide, you will find the Hindi, the Chinese, Malay, Swiss etc. all hanging on tightly to their culture and languages. Ever tried to find out why?

If all you use your own language to achieve, is "just to function within whatever tribal clique happens to exist close by at the moment," to use your own words. . . .then 'good luck' to you. Other people use their own languages for more important stuff. Check out the literary works churned out by writers all over the world, that have won great prizes. Many of them will tell you they drew inspiration from their native cultures or indigenous languages.

At long last!!!!!!

An argument not based on pure sentimentality. You, my brother, are one step closer to convincing me that my language has some use. However, we are not there yet.

I agree that no language is completely irrelevant. Even the klingon language has its relevance. However, my argument is that the Yoruba language's relevance, and indeed that of practucally all tribal languages within the country, is not sufficient to justify its use in day-to-day speech. It is a joy to speak one's language, but it is an indulgence, pure and simple. If a person chooses not to use it, it takes NOTHING from him- that is my opinion. He only loses the ability to integrate into the appropriate tribal clique . And tribal cliques are a poison that must be ELIMINATED from our nation if we are to move forward.

Hence freely speaking one's tribal tongue is actually dangerous. Out of courtesy, I ALWAYS revert to english whenever an igbo/ nonyoruba is around because I dont want them to feel we are insulting him behind his back. I know how I feel when people speak a language i dont understand and then burst out laughing suddenly when I'm there.



benefits of being multilingual:

if you learn

Arabic
chinese
swahili
Hausa
dutch
russian
french
portuguese

you are gaining an asset that can put food on your table for life. If you learn

nanpan
gumut
klingon
jedi


you are absolutely wasting your time because there is hardly anything worth doing in this world that requires translation to/from those langauges.

If I learn Igbo, its just to functin within Igbo cliques. No-one is going to pay me megabucks to translate Igbo.

My knowledge of yoruba is useful to me, in the context of tribal clique-ism. I can 'rap' with my yoruba bosses in vernacular to establish a bond of brotherhood and gain preferential treatment over people from other tribes. EXACTLY the thing that is ruining our country.

so such people exist eh? Creepy I dont know any Yoruba person here in the states sef that cant speak it

Really not that hard to learn.

@ topic:

no big deal. As long as we're able to communicate be it in Flemish, Gabonese or Swahili, I'm cool.

I'm not going to give myself a headache simply because someone doesnt speak a certain language.

@jakumo

what tha heck are u talkin about eh man,

So basically, a language is only justified if you can get paid from speaking it. Yet another one of the cancerous mindests that is holding our country back, having the prospect of monetary gain  as the motivation for absolutely everything we do.
I do agree that we should be aware of instances where the use of our language may alienate others. Does that mean that indigenous languages are irrelevant? That is going to far IMO. If we choose one language to speak in Nigeria, will we also rename all the places that were derived from the native  language, how about first and last  names ?

There is no law which says you should value your own language though.

Welsh may not be a "useful" lanugage in some peoples view, but people in Wales still speak/write it, even though they belong to the UK.

Nigerians love to show up, i was amazed when i went home last Xmas that my friends' kids couldn't understand yoruba and they are proud of it when my kids who were visiting Nigeria for the first time understands everything in yoruba even though they can't speak it. I wonder why parents would deny their kids that opportunity just to show that their kids are 'bota' who dont speak yoruba but english. God help them.

''I am not trying to convert anyone to my cause, I am *asking* others to *please* explain the relevance of this *without* resorting to a sentimental argument. A *practical* reason. Something of *tangible* benefit.''

I was at a supermarket and needed to pass a message accross to my child and didnt want the oyinbo with us to feel embarrased i said it in yoruba and no one was hurt. If i had said what i wanted to in english she might have taken it personal. And when you beat them outside all you need do is tell them 'ti o ba sokun ma lu e si ti aba dele' and he will keep quiet, you wont say that where some ayinbos are in english.

The trio of pearl2, rof-lmao and Jakumo, and some other arrogant oafs on this thread are suffering from chronic myopia and a false sense of superiority over those that don't understand and/or can't speak their parents' native tongue. The typical attitude of those suffering from cultural hubris, reducing the complexity of culture to the relative simplicity of language. Absolute failures in understanding the complex interplay of environment, interest, ability/capacity, and other peculiarities, in the understanding and speaking of any language. Peddlers of the mediocre view that culture is equal to language and language is equal to culture, that inability is somehow equivalent to lack of interest or deliberateness. Utterly pathetic and shameless creatures! Tufiakwa!

My Dad's a typical example of a Nigerian parent that doesnt allow his child to speak Yoruba language. But,am really glad i attended a boarding school for secondary school education. .