airmark:


It's just like saying Chukwueze. would do better from the left wing.

Popi too like arguments. He’s very adamant

nateevs:


I think you are still stuck with traditional 4-4-2 with a left-sided no 11 and right sided no 7.

To prove your point, you have got to come up with a whole load of data and supporting facts, not only occasional goals.

The wingers are now inverted for a reason. Traditional wingers have evolved from creators-only to becoming full-on goal scorers themselves.

When a left winger operates from the right, and cuts inside to face goal, on his left foot, he has more possibilities at goal - an in-swinging cross to find attacking positions, and more importantly, shots on goal.

With shots on goal come the major difference. On their left foot in that position, they can aim shots at either side of the goalie with accuracy. Nothing like tight angle. On the left side in the same position, same player is limited to timid shots on their weaker foot.

This means that for them to be effective, they have to bring play to their stronger foot, which inevitably limits them to crossing for chances only, and occasional goals from tight angles - the ones you come and show us here.

Shots at goal from tight angles are more predictable which makes the whole team's effort at goal more predictable and less effective. The same applies to right-footed wingers in same situations.

The question is why would you want to do that, when the wingers themselves have evolved their games to become goal scorers and not just creators?

I don't want to think that you believe Pep and Jurgen are wrong for playing Mahrez and Salah respectively on the right.

We don argue this thing taya with Popi. E no wan gree

pkasso:
I was reminiscing about European football in the early to mid 2000's with an older friend the other day and a debate came up. It was on how he claimed Henry was robbed of a Ballon d'or in those years. I was of the opinion that while Henry was very good, he wasn't the best. I actually said Shevchenko was a better striker and that Eto'o was on the same level. But my guy no wan gree.

Now it's been years and our memories of these players might have been blunted by time, but I'm really interested in what some of the oldies here have to say about this. Ibime, nateevs, FBS, patrickmuf, and also Roland17, who supports both Arsenal and Milan, abeg make una chook mouth for this matter. Every one and anyone's contribution is welcome, BTW.

By 2003, Henry had established himself as an accomplished striker who could also provide assists for his team. He was renowned across the globe and carried Arsenal.

If the Ballon D’Or was truly about the performance of players during a calendar year, then it is a shame and travesty that Henry did not win any because he had the stats to back him up. Nedved’s performance in the semi-final against Madrid was what some of the voters used to award Nedved which still infuriates me, outside of the fact that he is a Bianconeri. A team renowned for its corruption!!

I have a strong belief that the awards were greatly influenced by Italian journalists who campaigned heavily for players in the Serie A. His loss to Nedved was more painful than the loss to Shevchenko whom I still revere considering his exploits with my Milan.

Ibime:


Shevchenko was never in the picture for best player in the world. Balon d'Or was a B rate award then for the likes of Shevchenko, Nedved and Owen who couldn't make the list for FIFA WPOTY

FIFA WPOTY was the premium award and was contested by the elites. Henry finished 2nd to Zidane and Ronaldinho in 2003 and 2004 and was quite likely robbed in both of those years. He just didn't have the signature win (UCL, Euros) in those years to solidify his claim, mind you neither did Zidane or Ronaldinho so he was likely robbed.

Sheva did make the final shortlist for WPOTY in '04 finishing behind Henry and Dinho. So he was definitely a force to be reckoned with. I wasn't referring to only the Ballon d'or in my argument, the WPOTY included.

Henry was a notorious big game choker and what one could call a local champion. He couldn't replicate his PL form on the European stage and with France when on international duty. And let's not kid ourselves, the PL of the early 2000's wasn't half as competitive as it is today so his stats, while impressive are only par for the course. Think Lewy banging in goals in the Bundesliga or Mbappe in Ligue One.

Sheva played in a slightly tougher league IMO at that point in time, facing meaner defences while playing as a lone striker for most of the time, a rarity in that period. He also had a better record in Europe. His numbers speak for themselves.

Peak Dinho was untouchable so I'm surprised you think Henry was robbed.

pkasso:
Sheva did make the final shortlist for WPOTY in '04 finishing behind Henry and Dinho. So he was definitely a force to be reckoned with. I wasn't referring to only the Ballon d'or in my argument, the WPOTY included.

Henry was a notorious big game choker and what one could call a local champion. He couldn't replicate his PL form on the European stage and with France when on international duty. And let's not kid ourselves, the PL of the early 2000's wasn't half as competitive as it is today so his stats, while impressive are only par for the course. Think Lewy banging in goals in the Bundesliga or Mbappe in Ligue One.

Sheva played in a slightly tougher league IMO at that point in time, facing meaner defences while playing as a lone striker for most of the time, a rarity in that period. He also had a better record in Europe. His numbers speak for themselves.

Peak Dinho was untouchable so I'm surprised you think Henry was robbed.

I agree especially the local champion part,that asshole is the reason arsenal don’t have ucl trophy

pkasso:


Henry was a notorious big game choker and what one could call a local champion. He couldn't replicate his PL form on the European stage and with France when on international duty. And let's not kid ourselves, the PL of the early 2000's wasn't half as competitive as it is today so his stats, while impressive are only par for the course. Think Lewy banging in goals in the Bundesliga or Mbappe in Ligue One.

Sheva played in a slightly tougher league IMO at that point in time, facing meaner defences while playing as a lone striker for most of the time, a rarity in that period. He also had a better record in Europe. His numbers speak for themselves.

Premier league was usually amongst top 2 in Uefa ranking during those years so your comparison with Ligue 1 and bundles Liga makes no sense. How meaner and tougher is a league were Cristiano Lucarelli was finishing top scorer, outscoring Sheva and averaging 20goals per season from 2004 to 2007.

iamoyindamola:

I agree especially the local champion part,that asshole is the reason arsenal don’t have ucl trophy

How was he the reason how arsenal doesn’t have a ucl trophy ?

pkasso:
Sheva did make the final shortlist for WPOTY in '04 finishing behind Henry and Dinho. So he was definitely a force to be reckoned with. I wasn't referring to only the Ballon d'or in my argument, the WPOTY included.

Henry was a notorious big game choker and what one could call a local champion. He couldn't replicate his PL form on the European stage and with France when on international duty. And let's not kid ourselves, the PL of the early 2000's wasn't half as competitive as it is today so his stats, while impressive are only par for the course. Think Lewy banging in goals in the Bundesliga or Mbappe in Ligue One.

Sheva played in a slightly tougher league IMO at that point in time, facing meaner defences while playing as a lone striker for most of the time, a rarity in that period. He also had a better record in Europe. His numbers speak for themselves.

Peak Dinho was untouchable so I'm surprised you think Henry was robbed.

Dinho as of 2004 does not deserve Balon d'Or over Henry

Dingo deserved 2005 and 2006, but was robbed in 2006 for Cannavaro just because Brazil coach couldn't balance his team effectively at the World Cup

Also Zidane did not deserve 2003 over Henry

Ibime:


Dingo as of 2004 does not deserve Balon d'Or over Henry

Dingo deserved 2005 and 2006, but was robbed in 2006 for Cannavaro just because Brazil coach couldn't balance his team effectively at the World Cup
Also Zidane did not deserve 2003 over Henry

Henry did not deserve any of those awards

Award were given for performance either in the CL or in major tournaments,

Henry was a notorious flop in those tournaments be it world cup 2002, Euro 2004, It was only CL 2006 that he tried but it was still inferior to the achievement of Cavavaro for his NT and Dinho for Barcelona

In 2004 CL Henry flopped after Chelsea disgraced Arsenal out, Euro 2004 he flopped all tournament. It was Zidane that was bailing France out until Greece put them out of their misery.

Henry was never the leader for his NT,
In France 98 though young, he was benched for the crucial part of the tournament, in 2000, he was majorly flopping all through and the key moments he failed to stand up, In Japan Korea, with Zidane injured Henry flopped again
when the Arsenal clique ganged up to retire Zidane after 2004, they struggled to qualify for world cup 2006 until Zidane came out of retirement to help them and Zidane went ahead to dominate the world cup 2006

Euro 2008 without Zidane Henry flopped again
EPL, Henry was the greatest, CL and NT tournament Henry was a massive flop

pkasso:
Sheva did make the final shortlist for WPOTY in '04 finishing behind Henry and Dinho. So he was definitely a force to be reckoned with. I wasn't referring to only the Ballon d'or in my argument, the WPOTY included.

Henry was a notorious big game choker and what one could call a local champion. He couldn't replicate his PL form on the European stage and with France when on international duty. And let's not kid ourselves, the PL of the early 2000's wasn't half as competitive as it is today so his stats, while impressive are only par for the course. Think Lewy banging in goals in the Bundesliga or Mbappe in Ligue One.

Sheva played in a slightly tougher league IMO at that point in time, facing meaner defences while playing as a lone striker for most of the time, a rarity in that period. He also had a better record in Europe. His numbers speak for themselves.

Peak Dinho was untouchable so I'm surprised you think Henry was robbed.

I would never forget his first half hattrick against Barca in 97 or thereabout in Camp Nou. He was the drogba to inter as drogba was to arsenal. A big game player, one I really really liked. Did it for his National team and in UCL too

Top top European striker, shame the injury happened and his career went the way it went in Chelsea

How is being a leader relevant to anything? What did Ronaldinho win for Brazil when he became their leader without Delima to carry him. They won nothing yet nobody is using it against him . Using Zidane being the main man to rubbish Henry is just nonsense.

Henry didn't flop for France. He contributed to those trophies and also scored crucial goals. He performed in some tournament and also had bad tournaments which is normal.


Euros 2000: He scored 3 goals ( 2 group stage and 1 in the semi final) and 1 assist. Was named in team of the tournament.


World Cup 2006: He scored 3 goals again ( 2 group stage and the winner against Brazil in the quarter final). Was named again In team of the tournament.


Sounding like Henry was Giroud in 2018 all throughout his France career.

Capaldi:
How is being a leader relevant to anything? What did Ronaldinho win for Brazil when he became their leader. They won nothing. Using Zidane being the main man to rubbish Henry is just nonsense.
Henry didn't flop for France. He contributed to those trophies and also scored crucial goals. He performed in some tournament and also had bad tournaments which is normal.

Euros 2000: He scored 3 goals ( 2 group stage and 1 in the semi final) and 1 assist. Was named in team of the tournament.

World Cup 2006: He scored 3 goals again ( 2 group stage and the winner against Brazil in the quarter final). Was named again In team of the tournament.

Ronaldinho is mainly rated for his performance for Barcelona and not so much for his Brazil performances

All what you are listing here are group stage performance when the stakes are not high, when the stakes get high, Henry is guaranteed to flop

That game vs Brazil in 2006, Anyone who watched it will always point to it as a Zidane masterclass not Henry

raumdeuter:


Ronaldinho is mainly rated for his performance for Barcelona and not so much for his Brazil performances

All what you are listing here are group stage performance when the stakes are not high, when the stakes get high, Henry is guaranteed to flop

That game vs Brazil in 2006, Anyone who watched it will always point to it as a Zidane masterclass not Henry

Why is Ronaldinho flopping for Brazil without Delima to carry him not used against him? He scored in knockout stages for France yes or no.

nateevs:


Popi's point is a redundant one. Popi's point seems to suggest that even managers don't know or have not assessed this possibility.

Football is not static. True. But unless you are throwing the kitchen sink at everything, looking for a last minute goal, you are not going to line up with a 4-4-2 for instance in the PL, because you believe football is not static. You will get annihilated in midfield. There are several reasons why this evolution is being adopted - the underlying reason of all being ironically, that actually, 'football is not static'. Don't just reduce football to cross and nod, make your wingers do more.

As a matter of fact, we only explored examples in attacking posture and consequential increase in opportunities in the defence of the point. There also several advantages in defensive posture, as to why managers set up with inverted forwards, instead of traditional wingers.

In my opinion, Popi seems to be revising his stance on this matter. For months, he's constantly brought isolated examples of a goal created from the strong foot of a player as proof of this point. He's not mentioned until yesterday that he only refers to 'some forwards and not all' or isolated events.

So what's the deal? Do we set up with full-on traditional wingers for cross and nod football (abandoning all other advantages) or are we asking for isolated portions within the game where the wingers are switched, to create a different impact that can result in goal? Which is it? As it cannot be both.

In any case, for Popi's point to hold water, we will first have to understand which players within our team he considers are not inverted forwards/wingers to have a debate. As far as I can see, we have none.

So....as I said. Popi's point is redundant.


By the way Popi, not trying to refer to you indirectly. Just not had the time to reply to your post and FBS's.

I'm not too good with words that's why i make do with videos and if i was,there was no way i will beat natee.v britico with impeccable English.

Now see this video below with Malouda and Kalou in that starting lineup and tell me if they were traditional wingers even though they played the way i have always suggested.

You can argue it is an isolated case but even Anelka was on the right wing side of the attack in the return leg.





https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bm_ijliojv0

Somebody had good tournaments and also bad tournaments which was normal yet you are telling us he flopped. Thankfully he also scored in knockout stages because that is what you would have hold onto. You were expecting him to be scoring 20 goals per tournament or what.

Capaldi:

Why is Ronaldinho flopping for Brazil without Delima to carry him not used against him? He scored in knockout stages for France yes or no.

Ronaldinho performance in Barcelona between 2004 and 2006 were some of the best around that time and he didnt have any major tournament. The best moments for Ronaldinho was for Barcelona. Ronaldo was the kingpin for Brazil in that era, Dinho never dominated for Brazil, He was just a support cast

Henry scored in knockout games so did Wiltord, Trezeguet Djorkaeff, Thuram, Petit. Yet no one is clamoring for them to be WPOTY and Balon dor

The Ronaldinho how many champions league tournaments did he dominate with Barca? Apart from 2006 how many elite campaign did he have in the champions league.

Leyqute:


We don argue this thing taya with Popi. E no wan gree

Was Sir Alex Ferguson using Antonio Valencia as a winger in traditional 4-4-2 system?


Why did he not use Antonio Valencia in LWF just he bought him after he sold Ronaldo or was he not trying to make Ronaldo out of Valencia?

raumdeuter:


Ronaldinho performance in Barcelona between 2004 and 2006 were some of the best around that time and he didnt have any major tournament.

He scored in knockout games so did Wiltord, Trezeguet Djorkaeff, Thuram, Petit. Yet no one is clamoring for them to be WPOTY and Balon dor

Stop telling us he flopped when he obviously didn't. Using Zidane being the main man to rubbish Henry contribution is just nonsense. You already told us it's about champions league and Major tournament not league football. What did Ronaldinho do in the champions league and major tournaments during those periods apart from being carried by Delima. How many elite champions league campaign did Ronaldinho have in his career. When Delima left Brazil why didn't he carry them to any major trophy. So you agree Ronaldinho was a massive flop for Brazil.

Capaldi:

Stop telling us he flopped when he obviously didn't. You already told us it's about champions league and Major tournament not league football. What did Ronaldinho do in the champions league and major tournaments during those periods apart from being carried by Delima. How many elite champions league campaign did Ronaldinho have. When Delima left Brazil why didn't he carry them to any major trophy. So you agree Ronaldinho was a massive flop for Brazil.

Dinho won the CL in 2006 without DeLima defeating Henrys Arsenal in the final

raumdeuter:


Dinho won the CL in 2006 without DeLima defeating Henrys Arsenal in the final

So in Ronaldinho entire career he only had one elite Champions league and international campaign? So he flopped for Brazil and was also a regular flopper in the champions league.

Capaldi:

So in Ronaldinho entire career he only had one elite Champions league and international campaign? So he flopped for Brazil and was also a regular flopper in the champions league.

In Henrys entire career he had Zero elite Champions League campaign and International campaign.

1 >>>> 0

This is the peak of Henry in the CL when he posed for camera in the 75th minute in anticipation of losing the trophy

Anybody that tells you Henry flopped for France again draw them close and knock their big head.

This Madrid midfield of Kroos, Modric and Valverde is too light against a team like city especially with Kroos as the Dm.

raumdeuter:


In Henrys entire career he had Zero elite Champions League campaign and International campaign.

1 >>>> 0

Even before the argument began, everybody knows it will come to this. When you have nothing to say, they bring out tro0phy or boss final

pkasso:
I was reminiscing about European football in the early to mid 2000's with an older friend the other day and a debate came up. It was on how he claimed Henry was robbed of a Ballon d'or in those years. I was of the opinion that while Henry was very good, he wasn't the best. I actually said Shevchenko was a better striker and that Eto'o was on the same level. But my guy no wan gree.

Now it's been years and our memories of these players might have been blunted by time, but I'm really interested in what some of the oldies here have to say about this. Ibi.me, nate.evs, F.BS, patri.ckmuf, and also Rola.nd17, who supports both Arsenal and Milan, abeg make una chook mouth for this matter. Every one and anyone's contribution is welcome, BTW.

Henry was elite level, he was better than Shevy and Eto as an all round footballer. If the argument is about who was the better goal scorer then Shevy and Eto can stand a chance.

raumdeuter:


In Henrys entire career he had Zero elite Champions League campaign and International campaign.

1 >>>> 0

Amnesia must have made you forget Henry took his team to the champions league final in that same season.

raumdeuter:


Zero goals in Serie A this season

airmark Don disappear

Capaldi:
This Madrid midfield of Kroos, Modric and Valverde is too light against a team like city especially with Kroos as the Dm.

Tchouameni should be starting dm. I just hope it's not too late before ancelotti realises it. Rudiger in that real madrid defence is also not bringing confidence.

I'm tired of defending Pep Guardiola while he keeps making the same mistakes, he has few minutes to correct whatever mistakes he is about to make.