Kay 17: To you why is a foetus a person??

I can't believe this question is being asked.

1-It is not a mass of tissue!!!! The heart starts to beat two to four weeks after conception. The tiny brain is already generating brain waves after 7 weeks. By the second month (when most abortions take place) the arms, legs, fingers, toes, ears, nose, mouth, muscles, organs, and bones are either formed or close to finish.

2-"It isn't fully developed" quote made out of ignorance .
Neither is a three-year-old. A human is not fully developed until the late teens to early twenties, and even afterwards matures in different ways. Can the stage of development really define what the being is? Is an adult more human than a child or merely more developed? A woman who had difficulty in her pregnancy in its fourth month was operated upon and the baby was kept in an intensive unit till she gets matured enough. Is the baby human or not?

3-"it isn't conscious?" another quote made out of ignorance
Can consciousness be a universal human trait? If so, would a sleeping or anesthetized or comatose person be considered "non-human" because of his or her lack of consciousness?

4-"it's inside the womb?" That's one of the dumbest statement I heard
The location of an individual determines whether or not it is a human being? A baby the moment before birth is not human, but immediately after birth becomes human? How? Why? What is the child when it’s half-way out? Half-human?

5-"it's part of the woman's body, therefore the woman have the right to remove it(kill it)"
The hands are the mother’s? The heart? The brain? Taking that argument to its logical conclusion, (via the transitive relationship where if A is a part of B, and B is a part of C, then A is a part of C) a pregnant woman then has four hands, four feet, two brains, and, if the fetus is a boy, the woman has both male and female genitals. Perhaps you can see how illogical this argument is. Moreover, the fetus has its own unique genetic code in each of its cells; not the mother’s code, not the father’s code—its own human genetic code. The fetus is in the mother, attached to the mother, but not part of the mother.

6-It is alive
It’s growing. It’s developing. It’s responding. It’s functioning. It’s burning food and oxygen. It’s giving off waste products. Its cells are reproducing. These are properties of a living being. It is a Life.


The fetus is only a human being and is just as prone as a child or adult to have an accident, develop a disease, or suffer an iatrogenic problem"


A pre-born baby is fully human from the moment of conception. What we see in the photograph expresses that understanding better than a thousand words.
The photo depicts a 21-week-old pre-born baby, who was being operated on by a surgeon named Joseph Bruner (It is his finger in the photo). The baby had been diagnosed with spina bifida, which leaves the spinal cord exposed after it fails to develop properly.

A Caesarean section was then performed to lift the uterus gently from mother's body, permitting the surgeon to make a small incision through which the operation would be performed. Then, it happened! As Dr. Bruner was probing the opening, the baby's fully-developed hand wrapped itself around the finger of the surgeon. The photograph captures that amazing moment with perfect clarity.

They go to the Abiku heaven and come to trouble humans once in a while as abiku children. Don't take my word for it, though.

jmoore:

I can't believe this question is being asked.

1-It is not a mass of tissue!!!! The heart starts to beat two to four weeks after conception. The tiny brain is already generating brain waves after 7 weeks. By the second month (when most abortions take place) the arms, legs, fingers, toes, ears, nose, mouth, muscles, organs, and bones are either formed or close to finish.

2-"It isn't fully developed" quote made out of ignorance .
Neither is a three-year-old. A human is not fully developed until the late teens to early twenties, and even afterwards matures in different ways. Can the stage of development really define what the being is? Is an adult more human than a child or merely more developed? A woman who had difficulty in her pregnancy in its fourth month was operated upon and the baby was kept in an intensive unit till she gets matured enough. Is the baby human or not?

3-"it isn't conscious?" another quote made out of ignorance
Can consciousness be a universal human trait? If so, would a sleeping or anesthetized or comatose person be considered "non-human" because of his or her lack of consciousness?

4-"it's inside the womb?" That's one of the dumbest statement I heard
The location of an individual determines whether or not it is a human being? A baby the moment before birth is not human, but immediately after birth becomes human? How? Why? What is the child when it’s half-way out? Half-human?

5-"it's part of the woman's body, therefore the woman have the right to remove it(kill it)"
The hands are the mother’s? The heart? The brain? Taking that argument to its logical conclusion, (via the transitive relationship where if A is a part of B, and B is a part of C, then A is a part of C) a pregnant woman then has four hands, four feet, two brains, and, if the fetus is a boy, the woman has both male and female genitals. Perhaps you can see how illogical this argument is. Moreover, the fetus has its own unique genetic code in each of its cells; not the mother’s code, not the father’s code—its own human genetic code. The fetus is in the mother, attached to the mother, but not part of the mother.

6-It is alive
It’s growing. It’s developing. It’s responding. It’s functioning. It’s burning food and oxygen. It’s giving off waste products. Its cells are reproducing. These are properties of a living being. It is a Life.


The fetus is only a human being and is just as prone as a child or adult to have an accident, develop a disease, or suffer an iatrogenic problem"


A pre-born baby is fully human from the moment of conception. What we see in the photograph expresses that understanding better than a thousand words.
The photo depicts a 21-week-old pre-born baby, who was being operated on by a surgeon named Joseph Bruner (It is his finger in the photo). The baby had been diagnosed with spina bifida, which leaves the spinal cord exposed after it fails to develop properly.

A Caesarean section was then performed to lift the uterus gently from mother's body, permitting the surgeon to make a small incision through which the operation would be performed. Then, it happened! As Dr. Bruner was probing the opening, the baby's fully-developed hand wrapped itself around the finger of the surgeon. The photograph captures that amazing moment with perfect clarity.

All those don't count for being a person.

Kay 17:
All those don't count for being a person.

I am not surprised, common sense is no longer common in this 21st century. We do not even need have a little knowledge of biology before we can come to the conclusion that unborn babies are humans.

Kay 17:

Science and its "truths" are seperate and different from Christianity and its own "truths". Two different systems. Scientific reports must have result from the scientific method, only then is it stamped as scientific.

Religious adherents who use the scientific method can't credit their religions as a direct contribution to their work.

So, which side of the 'truth' are you on?

jmoore:
I am not surprised, common sense is no longer common in this 21st century. We do not even need have a little knowledge of biology before we can come to the conclusion that unborn babies are humans.

No, that's a mistake you are making. Everyone knows a foetus, embryo, zygote, sperm and egg are human. Also goats and chickens have always had different DNAs.

But to be entitled to himan rights especially that to life, you need to be a person, its a bundle of qualifications and attributes which require protection. First a person is able to exercise and assert his personality and also can't be compromised for another. Its has to be conscious, have an anticipation for the future, sentient in general.

^
Oh? You are Pro Choice. I agree.
Even if it is a full-term infant like this. . .


[img]https://www.nairaland.com/download/692113[/img]



ANY WOMAN has the right to KILL her own child. Let her face the consequences. As long as the so-called PRO-LIFERS cannot take care of ALL abandoned babies that are not aborted, their arguments remain in the wind.

OP, please, start an orphanage and provide the potential abortionists with the necessary assistance to take care of the MOTHERS AND BABIES yourself. Your reward is in heaven. A zillion babies are being aborted every second. You are preaching to a dead choir. Take your crusade offline.

Fetus or full-term, they all end up in the 'trash'. . . . as in GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOD RIDDDDDDDDDDDDANCE TO FOUL BAD RUBBISH!!

Ask your NL men and women who are the CHIEF culprits.

Thank you.

Next topic please.

Callotti: ^
Oh? You are Pro Choice. I agree.
Even if it is a full-term infant like this. . .


[img]https://www.nairaland.com/download/692113[/img]



ANY WOMAN has the right to KILL her own child. Let her face the consequences. As long as the so-called PRO-LIFERS cannot take care of ALL abandoned babies that are not aborted, their arguments remain in the wind.

OP, please, start an orphange and provide the potential abortionists with the necessary assistance to take care of the MOTHERS AND BABIES yourself. Your reward is in heaven. A zillion babies are being aborted every second. You are preaching to a dead choir. Take your crusade offline.

Fetus or full-term, they all end up in the 'trash'. . . . as in GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOD RIDDDDDDDDDDDDANCE TO FOUL BAD RUBBISH!!

Ask your NL men and women who are the CHIEF culprits.

Thank you.

Next topic please.

Woman,are you sure you are human or you are just being sarcastically sickening(No offense).

Callotti: ^
Oh? You are Pro Choice. I agree.
Even if it is a full-term infant like this. . .


[img]https://www.nairaland.com/download/692113[/img]



ANY WOMAN has the right to KILL her own child. Let her face the consequences. As long as the so-called PRO-LIFERS cannot take care of ALL abandoned babies that are not aborted, their arguments remain in the wind.

OP, please, start an orphange and provide the potential abortionists with the necessary assistance to take care of the MOTHERS AND BABIES yourself. Your reward is in heaven. A zillion babies are being aborted every second. You are preaching to a dead choir. Take your crusade offline.

Fetus or full-term, they all end up in the 'trash'. . . . as in GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOD RIDDDDDDDDDDDDANCE TO FOUL BAD RUBBISH!!

Ask your NL men and women who are the CHIEF culprits.

Thank you.

Next topic please.

funny enough, its countries that criminalize abortion, that have the highest rates. It wouldn't have ended up like this if there were family planning services, qualified medical personell to carry out a competent abortion.

Most of the mothers are kids who can't afford to give up their education or in a precarious situation. Its a consequence of compulsory pregnanies. You can't make a person responsible for what they didn't choose

solomon111: Woman,are you sure you are human or you are just being sarcastically sickening(No offense).

Your interpretation and MY PREROGATIVE. No offense.

Kay 17: funny enough, its countries that criminalize abortion, that have the highest rates. It wouldn't have ended up like this if there were family planning services, qualified medical personell to carry out a competent abortion.

Most of the mothers are kids who can't afford to give up their education or in a precarious situation. Its a consequence of compulsory pregnanies. You can't make a person responsible for what they didn't choose

Well written. I agree.

Even if they chose to get pregnant. . .they still have the RIGHT to CHANGE THEIR MINDS and terminate the pregnancies AT ANY TIME! Even at the risk of losing their lives. Not my business.

Only 'religious' bigots or control freaks will choose to 'carry' such matters on their heads. . . BEING THE CHIEF CULPRITS THEMSELVES.

Especially the MEN who would gladly pay for an abortion after fornicating and commiting all kinds of 'religious' taboos. . . i.e. r-ape and pedo-philia!

Mtcheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeew!!!!

Kay 17: funny enough, its countries that criminalize abortion, that have the highest rates. It wouldn't have ended up like this if there were family planning services, qualified medical personell to carry out a competent abortion.

Most of the mothers are kids who can't afford to give up their education or in a precarious situation. Its a consequence of compulsory pregnanies. You can't make a person responsible for what they didn't choose

The U.S has the highest rate of abortion in the world,despite the fact that abortion is legal there,so your claims are not valid.
I can just begin to imagine the amount of innocent blood shed in that country on a daily.Am i not being a hypocrite. Why criticize america?When boko-haram is working assidiously hard to ensure that Nigeria catches up with the U.S in terms of innocent blood being spilled daily.
And again on your other claims, what didn't those young mothers chose?
How are they not responsible?
When they were having pre-marital sex(to be more liberal,unprotected sex),didn't they know they would get pregnant?
What kind of daft excuses are you guys giving?
Imagine someone saying a mother has the right to kill her child,when they both have their individual lifes to live and therefore they both have a right to life.
Why should someone take away my right to life,when i am not a physical threat to their life.
This world is truely a sick place,full of sick people.

No problem.
If the world is too sick for you, you can jolly well log off.
AKA abort yasef!
Join the wasted rest!
Darwinism at work. Survival of the "selected"!
Period!
Quit whining please!

I repeat: ANY FEMALE has my EXPRESS authority to KILL any nauseating BAGA germinating as an unwanted guest inside her! Especially, when the other contributary factors are ONLY good for recreational, cheap phocking!

solomon111: The U.S has the highest rate of abortion in the world,despite the fact that abortion is legal there,so your claims are not valid.
I can just begin to imagine the amount of innocent blood shed in that country on a daily.Am i not being a hypocrite. Why criticize america?When boko-haram is working assidiously hard to ensure that Nigeria catches up with the U.S in terms of innocent blood being spilled daily.
And again on your other claims, what didn't those young mothers chose?
How are they not responsible?
When they were having pre-marital sex(to be more liberal,unprotected sex),didn't they know they would get pregnant?
What kind of daft excuses are you guys giving?
Imagine someone saying a mother has the right to kill her child,when they both have their individual lifes to live and therefore they both have a right to life.
Why should someone take away my right to life,when i am not a physical threat to their life.
This world is truely a sick place,full of sick people.

You are throwing too many uncertain words around. The foetus is a foetus and not a child. A baby is formed at the duration of the development. The embryo is human, but not person, innocence can't be applied to undeveloped human with sentience, its equal to saying a chicken egg is innocent.

The mother has a right to her own life, to her physical and mental health, if the pregnancy is set to compromise she freely has a right to abort it. Also part of her right to autonomy is to decide what she does to her body, which the State can't trespass.

On the other hand, upon delivery, the child becomes a person and can be murdered.

solomon111: The U.S has the highest rate of abortion in the world,despite the fact that abortion is legal there,so your claims are not valid.
I can just begin to imagine the amount of innocent blood shed in that country on a daily.Am i not being a hypocrite. Why criticize america?When boko-haram is working assidiously hard to ensure that Nigeria catches up with the U.S in terms of innocent blood being spilled daily.
And again on your other claims, what didn't those young mothers chose?
How are they not responsible?
When they were having pre-marital sex(to be more liberal,unprotected sex),didn't they know they would get pregnant?
What kind of daft excuses are you guys giving?
Imagine someone saying a mother has the right to kill her child,when they both have their individual lifes to live and therefore they both have a right to life.
Why should someone take away my right to life,when i am not a physical threat to their life.
This world is truely a sick place,full of sick people.

Where is the statistical report stating that the US has the highest abortion rate in the world? What we are saying is that illegalizing abortion does not reduce the numbers of abortion but just end up driving the people involved underground, resulting in more death to the women because of back allay abortion clinics.

You can whip up as much sentiments and emotions as you like, It would never Equate ABORTING a feotus to MURDER a human being.

Why do you religionists not learn to mind your moral business? The fact that someone decides to have pre-marital, marital oR post-marital Séx is non of your business. Face you own and your family busin
ess. You cannot force others to live by your moral (religious) code. What ever reason an adult woman has for having Séx is her forking business and over 99% of all séxual activities is for recreational and other purposes and not with the aim of producing babies. Even married couples that do not want any more children continue to have séx regularly.

No body said a mother has the legal right to kill her child. You need to learn what the legal definition of a child is and stop imposing your religious definition, after all we are in a secular state and not ruled by cannon or Sharia laws.

What do you mean by that the foetus is not a threat to the mother? have you not heard of cases where the life of a mother is at risk if she go ahead and have a baby? Have you not heard the staggering statistics of mothers that dies in the course of giving birth to a baby? Are you not aware of the physically, psychological and emotional trauma a woman passes through in the course of a pregnancy?
Let the woman decide for herself if she wants to pass through the risk of a pregnancy, and if she is ready to care and nurture the baby.

so a human sometimes is not person? It should have been person rights and not human rights as we know.
what's the child called when he/she is half way out during delivery, half person?
Evil minds keep suppressing common sense.
About unconsciousness one my comments earlier cleared it up but evil mind can be blind to see the truth.

It will only hurt you when you are affected. If one of your family members was killed by boko haram, you don't need any christian to tell you what they did was evil.

If she is unable to take care of the baby is a justifiable reason, why don't you advise poor people to commit suicide since they can't meet their basic needs.

mrmayor: [size=13pt]This thread is not about the Religious Morality or Legality of Abortion. The question still remains where do Aborted Foetus (Child) go to, Heaven or Hell?
[/size]

[size=13pt]Throwing statistics about the number of abortions a year in America is not answering the Question! If I may add the world would have been a much better place if God given Babies with God Given Purpose like Hitler, Stalin, Saddam, Abacha, Bin Laden and many other madmen were all ABORTED.[/size]

[size=14[b]WHERE ARE THE FOETUS (BABIES), HEAVEN OR HELL?[/b][/size]

Where do Aborted babies go?

Big question.. but 'go' and 'aborted' stand out..

Abort is to end... go is to move on...
If a baby is aborted(life cut prematurely), why then would you ask 'go'? This is where the 'religious' aspect comes in....

1st question would be do 'babies' have souls....

At what point do souls, if they exist, inhabit the human body?
Of course, the religion section being what it is(a place of confused confusion), we're likely to ask where do souls come from? If they inhabit a body and that body doesn't make it out alive, do they simply move on to another body, or go back to 'nothingness'...?


I HOPE I'VE BEEN ABLE TO PLAY MY OWN PART IN THIS CONFUSING THREAD..

"abort" is the physical life that is killed. where they "go" to is about the spiritual life.

The answer I gave, they go to heaven.

jmoore: so a human sometimes is not person? It should have been person rights and not human rights as we know.
what's the child called when he/she is half way out during delivery, half person?
Evil minds keep suppressing common sense.
About unconsciousness one my comments earlier cleared it up but evil mind can be blind to see the truth.

It will only hurt you when you are affected. If one of your family members was killed by boko haram, you don't need any christian to tell you what they did was evil.

If she is unable to take care of the baby is a justifiable reason, why don't you advise poor people to commit suicide since they can't meet their basic needs.

From your above comment, its implied that human rights is arbitrarily drawn. Because nothing in your comment denies awarding equal rights to farm animals and chicken eggs as long as they have beating hearts and toenails!

A foetus is life/potential life which like other life is to be respected, it lacks the sentience and capacity to assert a personality. The woman's right to life will always supercede it

[size=16pt]i don't know[/size]

Kay 17:

From your above comment, its implied that human rights is arbitrarily drawn.

Drawn by evil folks

jmoore:

Drawn by evil folks

In a situation where the pregnancy endangers the mother's life, whose life is in preference?

jmoore:

Drawn by evil folks

In a situation where the pregnancy endangers the mother's life, whose life takes preference or highest priority?

Kay 17:

In a situation where the pregnancy endangers the mother's life, whose life takes preference or highest priority?

Less than one-tenth of one percent of the abortions done in the world today is because of when pregnancy endangers the mother's life. Far more women have an abortion for convenience than women who have an abortion to save their own lives. Over 95 percent of the abortions performed today involve women who simply do not want to have a baby.

When the life of the mother is truly threatened by her pregnancy, if both lives cannot simultaneously be saved, then saving the mother’s life must be the primary aim while an attempt should also be made to save the baby. If through careful treatment of the mother’s illness the pre-born baby inadvertently dies or is injured, this is tragic and regrettable. But the intentional killing of an unborn baby by abortion is never necessary. It is not justifiable to kill someone who is innocent because you can't save him or her.


More explanation by physicians on http://www.prolifephysicians.org/rarecases.htm

jmoore:

When the life of the mother is truly threatened by her pregnancy, if both lives cannot simultaneously be saved, then saving the mother’s life must be the primary aim while an attempt should also be made to save the baby. If through careful treatment of the mother’s illness the pre-born baby inadvertently dies or is injured, this is tragic and regrettable. But the intentional killing of an unborn baby by abortion is never necessary. It is not justifiable to kill someone who is innocent because you can't save him or her.

As a person, one's right to life is guaranteed but for a foetus such will be absurd, there is no sentience to protect and it would always conflict with the mother's right to life.

Also could point out anywhere in law, whereby a person can be sacrificed for anyother. As long as there isn't any, other rights of the mother attached to her person always prevail against the foetus, be it religious beliefs, or unwillingness to deliver babies, grave health, etc.

musKeeto:

Where do Aborted babies go?

Big question.. but 'go' and 'aborted' stand out..

Abort is to end... go is to move on...
If a baby is aborted(life cut prematurely), why then would you ask 'go'? This is where the 'religious' aspect comes in....

1st question would be do 'babies' have souls....

At what point do souls, if they exist, inhabit the human body?
Of course, the religion section being what it is(a place of confused confusion), we're likely to ask where do souls come from? If they inhabit a body and that body doesn't make it out alive, do they simply move on to another body, or go back to 'nothingness'...?

I HOPE I'VE BEEN ABLE TO PLAY MY OWN PART IN THIS CONFUSING THREAD..

I think the bolded is the real question.

1. Do babies/foetus have souls?

2. If they do; at what point does the soul enter the body?

3. Are babies/foetus going to hell or heaven since they were conceived in SIN and also inherited Original Sin from Adam, Eve and Serpent/Satan?

There is nothing really confusing if the Believers would clear the issue.

And so the wait for reasonable answers begins..

Yes a person's right to life is guaranteed under law (except in war situations), but a sperm, ova, zygote and foetus right to life is not. I know it is hard for religious extremists to come to terms with it, but that is the reality. The rights of a foetus is tied to the rights of the mother until it leaves her body.

There is no law that can force a lady to have a baby if she is not willing to, and there is no law that can ban a lady from having séx with whomsoever she chooses, we have gone beyond that phase of our development. Women now have rights. You cannot regulate the séxual habits of women in general, even controlling the séxual habits of your wife is not guaranteed as it was when it was strictly a man's world.


The most logical thing to do is to provide adequate séx education about how to have safe séx and regulate abortion clinics within strict ethical and professional standards, in order to minimize the risk to women who choice to undergo the procedure.

Banning abortion is like the proverbial ostrich hiding its head in the sand, it will thrive in back alley clinics and the general hypocritical religious society will pretend not to see it.

Finally, who do you propose to punish for abortion? The doctor who is offering a service, the woman who for one reason or the other does not want the baby or the man who refuse to take responsibility for the result of his 10 mins of ecstasy or even the general society who does not care for the vulnerable in the social like single mothers, orphans and unwanted children.

I would have taken pro-lifers seriously if they spend their time and resources helping unwanted babies and children and helpless and abandoned pregnant women. Then they might convince women contemplating abortion to keep it, instead of massaging their moral ego by threats and intimidation.

musKeeto: And so the wait for reasonable answers begins..

Catch 22.

1.Yes they go to heaven: There is no Original Sin, You don't need to accept Jesus as lord and saviour, Heaven rejoices whenever there is an abortion because a Soul is on its way home.

2.No they don't go to heaven: What a merciful God,• All have Sinned because of a Perfect Man Adam, Eve and a Talking serpent,Jeremiah
Psalm 51:5 - "Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me.". Will suffer in hell for no cause of their own, never heard the word either Oyaks or Daddy GO, never paid tithes and of course God knows all this in advance 1:5 (from conception)Before I formed you in the womb I knew you; Before you were born I sanctified you;

Where is Frosbel, Davidlan, Joabgaje etc I need answers.

I think we should make a new topic to discuss that.. since like there a lot of unnecessary answers on this thread... we may soon be accused of derailing it..

mrmayor:

Catch 22.

1.Yes they go to heaven: There is no Original Sin, You don't need to accept Jesus as lord and saviour, Heaven rejoices whenever there is an abortion because a Soul is on its way home.

2.No they don't go to heaven: What a merciful God,• All have Sinned because of a Perfect Man Adam, Eve and a Talking serpent,Jeremiah
Psalm 51:5 - "Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me.". Will suffer in hell for no cause of their own, never heard the word either Oyaks or Daddy GO, never paid tithes and of course God knows all this in advance 1:5 (from conception)Before I formed you in the womb I knew you; Before you were born I sanctified you;

Where is Frosbel, Davidlan, Joabgaje etc I need answers.

Aborted babies go to heaven,because despite the fact that they inherit adamic sin,they have not gotten to the age of accountability and so cannot determine what is good and bad,and therefore cannot make a conscious decision to accept the lordship of Jesus christ.!
@ALL
I have said my own.you can chose to believe what you want to believe.Infact,you can choose to abort,fund abortion or support abortion,you are on your own.
You can claim to be anything,but you can't claim to be ignorant of what is right and wrong,and this words which you hear day and Night,admonishing you, begging you, to turn from your wicked ways,and from the wrath to come,will stand as a witness against you before God,when the time comes.
You can claim to be smart,enlightened,exposed e.t.c. but it would be a case of penny wise,pound foolish,if you are not wise in the choices you make that affects your eternal destiny.