https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Rqw4krMOug

It is interesting how the effect of the Internet parallels the effect of the Printing Press on history.

Pastor AIO: It is interesting how the effect of the Internet parallels the effect of the Printing Press on history.

frees up information

Freedom of Information is the bane of Tyranny.

^Unlike other religions suffering a decline; Islam is particularly different

the internet has been a very useful tool for muslims because islam does not request you to shut down your brain and just believe... It calls on its adherents to reflect and think. It provides evidence that if studied dispassionately leads you to only one conclusion.

Since 911, muslims in America have doubled

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2138365/The-changing-face-religious-America-Number-Muslims-U-S-doubles-9-11-Mormonism-spreads-East-Coast.html


And the trend will continue as long as people put aside their prejudices....

Did you see the part of the video where the muslims were squirming when they were asked what the penalty for apostacy in Islam was?

There can only be 'one conclusion' in the 'thinking' of muslims unless they no longer care to live.

That one point alone is enough to discredit Islam a billion times over. Abeg go back to bed, bobs.

tbaba1234: ^Unlike other religions suffering a decline; Islam is particularly different

the internet has been a very useful tool for muslims because islam does not request you to shut down your brain and just believe... It calls on its adherents to reflect and think. It provides evidence that if studied dispassionately leads you to only one conclusion.

Since 911, muslims in America have doubled

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2138365/The-changing-face-religious-America-Number-Muslims-U-S-doubles-9-11-Mormonism-spreads-East-Coast.html


And the trend will continue as long as people put aside their prejudices....

How can a religion that carries the death penalty for Apostasy be regarded as "not requesting you to shut down your brain and just believe"? Or is your islam holier than that practiced in the middle east where it originates from?

^It was a bit of an entrapment by the guy asking about the apostacy law in the video. It gives him limited time to go through it.

It is not as simple as convert and get killed; that is not how it goes.

A number of conditions must be met:

First of all, it must be an Islamic state, most of the Muslim world are secular states. There is no true Islamic state in existence at the moment and the majority of muslims maintain their faith.

Also,leaving Islam and proselytizing another faith or carrying out acts to discredit Islam is treasonable.... Remember It is an Islamic state... If however you convert and mind your business; no one cares.

Thirdly, the person is not just executed, he speaks to the scholars about his doubts and is provided evidences about the divinity of the Quran so as to convince him, if that fails, he is threatened basically to shut him up from proselytizing disbelief in an Islamic state. If he relents, he is let go and can continue in his disbelief and live his normal life.

compare with

Deuteronomy 13:6-9 "If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying: Let us go and worship other gods (gods that neither you nor your fathers have known, gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other, or gods of other religions), do not yield to him or listen to him. Show him no pity. Do not spare him or shield him. You must certainly put him to death. Your hand must be the first in putting him to death, and then the hands of all the people."


Christians practised a more brutal form of the law for centuries:::

tbaba1234: ^It was a bit of an entrapment by the guy asking about the apostacy law in the video. It gives him limited time to go through it.

It is not as simple as convert and get killed; that is not how it goes.

A number of conditions must be met:

First of all, it must be an Islamic state, most of the Muslim world are secular states. There is no true Islamic state in existence at the moment and the majority of muslims maintain their faith.

Also,leaving Islam and proselytizing another faith or carrying out acts to discredit Islam is treasonable.... Remember It is an Islamic state... If however you convert and mind your business; no one cares.

Thirdly, the person is not just executed, he speaks to the scholars about his doubts and is provided evidences about the divinity of the Quran so as to convince him, if that fails, he is threatened basically to shut him up from proselytizing disbelief in an Islamic state. If he relents, he is let go and can continue in his disbelief and live his normal life.

compare with

Deuteronomy 13:6-9 "If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying: Let us go and worship other gods (gods that neither you nor your fathers have known, gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other, or gods of other religions), do not yield to him or listen to him. Show him no pity. Do not spare him or shield him. You must certainly put him to death. Your hand must be the first in putting him to death, and then the hands of all the people."


Christians practised a more brutal form of the law for centuries:::

First, I am an agnostic so don't bother quoting the bible to me because I dont believe in Christianity either. But the issue I raise is entirely on Islam and whether we are dealing with an Islamic state or not, the penalty for Apostasy is death according to sharia law which is the law your prophet received from your god. Mohammed was born in Mecca, so anything he handed down to his followers there is the real thing while what you guys practice now is diluted version which makes it fake. You also did not answer my question if your Islamic practice is holier than that practiced in countries like Saudi Arabia, Iran, Iraq, Syria, Kuwait and Qatar, where this death penalty Apostasy law applies in full.

tbaba1234: ^It was a bit of an entrapment by the guy asking about the apostacy law in the video. It gives him limited time to go through it.

It is not as simple as convert and get killed; that is not how it goes.

A number of conditions must be met:

First of all, it must be an Islamic state, most of the Muslim world are secular states. There is no true Islamic state in existence at the moment and the majority of muslims maintain their faith.

Also,leaving Islam and proselytizing another faith or carrying out acts to discredit Islam is treasonable.... Remember It is an Islamic state... If however you convert and mind your business; no one cares.

So the simple answer should have been 'no'. How come all those muslims, imams amongst them could not give that simple answer?

Second question. Has there ever been an Islamic state? Where and when? What happened to it?

Pastor AIO:

So the simple answer should have been 'no'. How come all those muslims, imams amongst them could not give that simple answer?

Second question. Has there ever been an Islamic state? Where and when? What happened to it?

Lol....Tbaba, did I not tell you not to stop debating? You keep getting destroyed.

Even though I kinda dislike you, Pator AIO, I believe that you are right in this case

logicboy:


Lol....Tbaba, did I not tell you not to stop debating? You keep getting destroyed.

Even though I kinda dislike you, Pator AIO, I believe that you are right in this case

dislike away! I can live with it.

Pastor AIO:

dislike away! I can live with it.

Lol....I havent had a proper debate with you. Maybe that's why

tbaba1234: ^It was a bit of an entrapment by the guy asking about the apostacy law in the video. It gives him limited time to go t

First of all, it must be an Islamic state, most of the Muslim world are secular states. There is no true Islamic state in existence at the moment and the majority of muslims maintain their faith.

So Saudi Arabia is not practicing the true sharia, right?. . .Can you give an example of a state that practiced the true sharia and how it differs from Saudi arabia?. . .

Tbaba's only choice is to run away because no one is buying his lies on apostasy and islam

logicboy: Tbaba's only choice is to run away because no one is buying his lies on apostasy and islam

What are you talking about??

2good:

First, I am an agnostic so don't bother quoting the bible to me because I dont believe in Christianity either. But the issue I raise is entirely on Islam and whether we are dealing with an Islamic state or not, the penalty for Apostasy is death according to sharia law which is the law your prophet received from your god. Mohammed was born in Mecca, so anything he handed down to his followers there is the real thing while what you guys practice now is diluted version which makes it fake. You also did not answer my question if your Islamic practice is holier than that practiced in countries like Saudi Arabia, Iran, Iraq, Syria, Kuwait and Qatar, where this death penalty Apostasy law applies in full.

So what is the question exactly?

Pastor AIO:

So the simple answer should have been 'no'. How come all those muslims, imams amongst them could not give that simple answer?

Second question. Has there ever been an Islamic state? Where and when? What happened to it?

There are no simple answers..... There is an apostacy law.. But it is rather simplistic to just ask the question,Do you have an apostacy law? The answer is yes... How does it apply? Then we can go into its full context.

The last truely Islamic state was the ottoman empire that was dismantled in the 1920s...

logicboy:


Lol....Tbaba, did I not tell you not to stop debating? You keep getting destroyed.

Even though I kinda dislike you, Pator AIO, I believe that you are right in this case

Destroyed??

Are you 12 years old??

mazaje:

So Saudi Arabia is not practicing the true sharia, right?. . .Can you give an example of a state that practiced the true sharia and how it differs from Saudi arabia?. . .

There are a number of points

1. In an Islamic state, all muslims are citizens; there is no saudi national or iranian national.... Any muslim that lives in the state is a citizen and is entitled to full benefits.

2. The ottomans, the ummayyads, the abbadids are examples of Islamic states that existed in the past... There are a few more.

3. The monarchy is not the form of islamic governance, Allegiance to the leader must come from all regions before he can rule.

4. There is no religious hierarchy in an Islamic state.. The saudi government appoints a mufti. As a result the religious laws are influenced by the government, Instead of being independent.

5. There is a few unislamic laws, like the restriction of women drivers, It has no basis in the Quran or the sunnah of the prophet... Women at the time of the prophet rode camels and fought wars.

The basic structure of an islamic state is non-existent...

tbaba1234:

There are a number of points

1. In an Islamic state, all muslims are citizens; there is no saudi national or iranian national.... Any muslim that lives in the state is a citizen and is entitled to full benefits.

2. The ottomans, the ummayyads, the abbadids are examples of Islamic states that existed in the past... There are a few more.

3. The monarchy is not the form of islamic governance, Allegiance to the leader must come from all regions before he can rule.

4. There is no religious hierarchy in an Islamic state.. The saudi government appoints a mufti. As a result the religious laws are influenced by the government, Instead of being independent.

5. There is a few unislamic laws, like the restriction of women drivers, It has no basis in the Quran or the sunnah of the prophet... Women at the time of the prophet rode camels and fought wars.

The basic structure of an islamic state is non-existent...

But they practice Sharia law, which still negates all the point you made up above. As long as you agree to Sharia, you are bound to live by the law one of which is dealth penalty for apostasy. That is what the Islamic scholar in the video said.

2good:

But they practice Sharia law, which still negates all the point you made up above. As long as you agree to Sharia, you are bound to live by the law one of which is dealth penalty for apostasy. That is what the Islamic scholar in the video said.

No it doesn't... The fact that the government controls what laws to implement and what not to :: already compromises the law.... What we have are pseudo-sharia states, that choose what they want and what they don't...

If the sharia was properly implemented ; many of the leaders would have been punished for some crime...

There is a difference between a majority muslim state and an Islamic state.... currently there exists no Islamic state... We have mainly secular states with majority muslim populations.

The man in the video said an Islamic state which is accurate; no state in the world meets the basic criterion.

The laws of the sharia are diverse: Some are related to your daily life like prayer, fasting, giving charity...

Some others are state laws so if i live outside the Islamic state, i am not bound by those laws:: These cases have to go through the judicial system before a decision is made.. I can't just see someone stealing on the road and carry out punishment without the case being heard in a court.

Look at the apostacy law this way;

Acts against the nation are considered treason aren't they? what is punishment for treason in 9ja?

The constitution of an Islamic state is based on Islam; If i live in the state, i abide by its laws;

If someone leaves Islam in an Islamic state for whatever reason, as long as he doesn't go around trying to convert people to whatever belief/unbelief he has found thereby trying to discredit the constitution of the state. He is fine. Otherwise, It is treasonable.

He can live his life, he doesn't have to pray or fast if he doesn't want to..

tbaba1234:


There is a difference between a majority muslim state and an Islamic state.... currently there exists no Islamic state... We have mainly secular states with majority muslim populations.

Are you saying that having an islamic state is impossible? What is sharia law if it is not Islamic? What is a country that lives by sharia law if it is not an islamic state?

tbaba1234: ^It was a bit of an entrapment by the guy asking about the apostacy law in the video. It gives him limited time to go through it.

It is not as simple as convert and get killed; that is not how it goes.

A number of conditions must be met:

First of all, it must be an Islamic state, most of the Muslim world are secular states. There is no true Islamic state in existence at the moment and the majority of muslims maintain their faith.

Also,leaving Islam and proselytizing another faith or carrying out acts to discredit Islam is treasonable.... Remember It is an Islamic state... If however you convert and mind your business; no one cares.

Thirdly, the person is not just executed, he speaks to the scholars about his doubts and is provided evidences about the divinity of the Quran so as to convince him, if that fails, he is threatened basically to shut him up from proselytizing disbelief in an Islamic state. If he relents, he is let go and can continue in his disbelief and live his normal life.

No, most of the states in the "muslim world" are not secular, they are built on a view of islamic jurisprudence, at most a mixture btw islamic governance and secularism.

An open society can't survive with the level of censorship present in Islamic states; namely blasphemy laws, laws to guard islam, apostacy laws, etc. Dissent must be able to exist and flourish. A man's unique view on religion despite being against State tailored and doctored version is not a threat to it except the State is built and depends on such ideology for survival, then its a prisoner of its people's minds.

Propagation of religious beliefs in my view isn't serious enough to be treason.

tbaba1234:

No it doesn't... The fact that the government controls what laws to implement and what not to :: already compromises the law.... What we have are pseudo-sharia states, that choose what they want and what they don't...

If the sharia was properly implemented ; many of the leaders would have been punished for some crime...

There is a difference between a majority muslim state and an Islamic state.... currently there exists no Islamic state... We have mainly secular states with majority muslim populations.

The man in the video said an Islamic state which is accurate; no state in the world meets the basic criterion.

The laws of the sharia are diverse: Some are related to your daily life like prayer, fasting, giving charity...

Some others are state laws so if i live outside the Islamic state, i am not bound by those laws:: These cases have to go through the judicial system before a decision is made.. I can't just see someone stealing on the road and carry out punishment without the case being heard in a court.

Look at the apostacy law this way;

Acts against the nation are considered treason aren't they? what is punishment for treason in 9ja?

The constitution of an Islamic state is based on Islam; If i live in the state, i abide by its laws;

If someone leaves Islam in an Islamic state for whatever reason, as long as he doesn't go around trying to convert people to whatever belief/unbelief he has found thereby trying to discredit the constitution of the state. He is fine. Otherwise, It is treasonable.

He can live his life, he doesn't have to pray or fast if he doesn't want to..

Note that a non muslim tends to lose all his citizen rights including that of political participation. Among all the states you mentioned (islamic), has there been a Christian or atheist ruler??

logicboy:
Are you saying that having an islamic state is impossible? What is sharia law if it is not Islamic? What is a country that lives by sharia law if it is not an islamic state?

An Islamic state is a state where every muslim is a citizen; That is the definition of an Islamic state: I can not go to any of these countries and claim citizen rights based on the fact that i am muslim.

Therefore, they are not Islamic states. Our history shows that we were mainly one state before colonisation. After that nationalism and tribalism divided the muslims.

Besides none of these nation states practise the sharia fully, they take parts of the laws and ignore the rest.

Kay 17:

No, most of the states in the "muslim world" are not secular, they are built on a view of islamic jurisprudence, at most a mixture btw islamic governance and secularism.

An open society can't survive with the level of censorship present in Islamic states; namely blasphemy laws, laws to guard islam, apostacy laws, etc. Dissent must be able to exist and flourish. A man's unique view on religion despite being against State tailored and doctored version is not a threat to it except the State is built and depends on such ideology for survival, then its a prisoner of its people's minds.

Propagation of religious beliefs in my view isn't serious enough to be treason.

Again, the basis of state laws is Islam....

If it was based on a secular ideology and you do acts against the state constitution; You will be charged with treason. During the cold war, defectors from each side were seen as traitors and faced the maximum penalty.

Monarchies are alien to Islam, there were instituted by the colonialists, The rest are mainly secular dictatorships... Which government exactly practises Islam? Which is an Islamic state? Saudi Arabia is the closest you will come and i have already shown why they are not an Islamic state.

Applying a few laws of the sharia does not make you an Islamic state.

Kay 17:
Note that a non muslim tends to lose all his citizen rights including that of political participation. Among all the states you mentioned (islamic), has there been a Christian or atheist ruler??

That is not true, Non-muslim can hold political positions in an Islamic state, they can rule a region of the state but they can't be the caliph(overall leader)....

Tbaba, you are not making any sense. By your definition of islamic state, there can never be an islamic state in this modern day.

However, what is the pubishment for apostacy in islam or sharia aw according to you?

logicboy: Tbaba, you are not making any sense. By your definition of islamic state, there can never be an islamic state in this modern day.

However, what is the pubishment for apostacy in islam or sharia aw according to you?

Up till the 1920s: we still had a functioning Islamic state (Ottoman empire). The colonialists tore up the Muslim state in bits after the collapse of the ottomans

There are movements to reunite the muslims under Islam again... And it will happen, it is just a matter of time.

The punishment for apostacy in an Islamic state is death.... This is however a very simplistic explanation: It comes with caveats..

There are certain conditions where conversion is accompanied with acts that could be considered treasonable by the state. The punishment for treason is death.

The act of just conversion is not punishable in most cases, however if that conversion is accompanied by an attempt to discredit Islam or propagate another religion within the islamic state, It is considered treasonable.

This law is not applicable to new muslims so they get a free ride.

The apostacy law came about during the time of the prophet;

In order to discredit Islam, some Jews in medina would accept islam in the day and leave by sunset; They continued to do so until the law was put in place.

Guess how many people did so the next day? None..

Now if one is considered an apostate, a number of steps must be taken:

He speaks to the scholars about his doubts and is provided evidences about the divinity of the Quran so as to convince him, if that fails, he is threatened basically to shut him up from proselytizing disbelief in an Islamic state. If he relents, he is let go and can continue in his disbelief and live his normal life.

tbaba1234:

Up till the 1920s: we still had a functioning Islamic state (Ottoman empire). The colonialists tore up the Muslim state in bits after the collapse of the ottomans

There are movements to reunite the muslims under Islam again... And it will happen, it is just a matter of time.

The punishment for apostacy in an Islamic state is death.... This is however a very simplistic explanation: It comes with caveats..

There are certain conditions where conversion is accompanied with acts that could be considered treasonable by the state. The punishment for treason is death.

The act of just conversion is not punishable in most cases, however if that conversion is accompanied by an attempt to discredit Islam or propagate another religion within the islamic state, It is considered treasonable.

This law is not applicable to new muslims so they get a free ride.

The apostacy law came about during the time of the prophet;

In order to discredit Islam, some Jews in medina would accept islam in the day and leave by sunset; They continued to do so until the law was put in place.

Guess how many people did so the next day? None..

Now if one is considered an apostate, a number of steps must be taken:

He speaks to the scholars about his doubts and is provided evidences about the divinity of the Quran so as to convince him, if that fails, he is threatened basically to shut him up from proselytizing disbelief in an Islamic state. If he relents, he is let go and can continue in his disbelief and live his normal life.

In as much as I disagree with you, I respect you for taking your time to honestly answering my question.

However, do you think that a western (American) muslim will agree to such apostasy laws in this day and age?



By the way, your input here is needed;

https://www.nairaland.com/929193/world-without-religion...better-not

logicboy:


In as much as I disagree with you, I respect you for taking your time to honestly answering my question.

However, do you think that a western (American) muslim will agree to such apostasy laws in this day and age?

The law is only applicable in an Islamic State... America is a secular state so an american muslim is not bound by the law...

tbaba1234:

The law is only applicable in an Islamic State... America is a secular state so an american muslim is not bound by the law...

That being said, wont this make American/western muslims feel different and disconnected to the Islamic states?

logicboy:
That being said, wont this make American/western muslims feel different and disconnected to the Islamic states?

Why? He still fulfills his personal obligations... The other laws only apply to states not individuals...

Every muslim wants to leave in a place where Islam dictates everything around him... unfortunately there is no state like that now..

This video shows the future every muslim looks forward to



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I0V76CjTSb8