Would a world without religion be better?





As an atheist, this question is at the back of my head everyday. I look at the 3 least religious countries (Estonia, Denmark and sweden) and I find that they are countries with strong economies, freedom and a very very very literate population, which are in contrast to the 3 most religious countries, (Egypt, Bangladesh and Sri Lanka). http://dailyatheist..co.uk/2009/02/most-and-least-religious-countries-in.html

So please, I want to hear your differing opinions on this matter.


The good thing about this topic is that it can not be derailed because it can be debated from any angle, be it an atheist v muslim or christian v atheist or religious wars v communist wars etc.


Also think about[b]
-How would the world be if everyone was christian?
-How would the world be if everyone was muslim?
-How would the world be if everyone was atheist[/b]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZNl94U1cof8

What is religion?
A world without religion(whatever it means) would not be better than it is. Maybe different ofcourse but not much better. A world without sin would be much more better. Man's main problem is sin, other problems are a result of sin. That's what Jesus came to take care of. He wants a people whose sins have been taken care of, so that they can live with Him in the coming new earth, after this earth has been destroyed.

Image123: What is religion?
A world without religion(whatever it means) would not be better than it is. Maybe different ofcourse but not much better. A world without sin would be much more better. Man's main problem is sin, other problems are a result of sin. That's what Jesus came to take care of. He wants a people whose sins have been taken care of, so that they can live with Him in the coming new earth, after this earth has been destroyed.

Thanks for your input.

What if religion itself is sin? Isnt that a good question?

Image123: What is religion?
A world without religion(whatever it means) would not be better than it is. Maybe different ofcourse but not much better. A world without sin would be much more better. Man's main problem is sin, other problems are a result of sin. That's what Jesus came to take care of. He wants a people whose sins have been taken care of, so that they can live with Him in the coming new earth, after this earth has been destroyed.

Sin is subjective, no?. . .Eating of pork is a sin to some while it isn't to others. . .A new earth remains a myth ,a ridiculous fantasy and superstition. . .It has nothing to do with reality. . .Why believe Jesus when he talks about the new earth when he told his deciples that he will return before they finish running round israel for persecution?. . .

mazaje:

Sin is subjective, no?. . .Eating of pork is a sin to some while it isn't to others. . .A new earth remains a myth ,a ridiculous fantasy and superstition. . .It has nothing to do with reality. . .Why believe Jesus when he talks about the new earth when he told his deciples that he will return before they finish running round israel for persecution?. . .

Good question

logicboy:

Thanks for your input.

What if religion itself is sin? Isnt that a good question?

There are different forms of religion ithink. My question is, what is religion?

mazaje:

Sin is subjective, no?. . .Eating of pork is a sin to some while it isn't to others. . .A new earth remains a myth ,a ridiculous fantasy and superstition. . .It has nothing to do with reality. . .Why believe Jesus when he talks about the new earth when he told his deciples that he will return before they finish running round israel for persecution?. . .

i gave a christian perspective. ithink i'm finished here.

Image123:
i gave a christian perspective. ithink i'm finished here.

Why are you so afraid of debate?

A world without religion or a world without God or a world without fanatical religion?Three questions with three different answers.

A theist might argue a world without religion is an oxymoron.Since it implies a world without a creator,and without a creator there would be no world to speak of.
But assuming for an instance that there was no religion,no God, there is a very strong likelyhood that the world would be a very bad place.This might sound simplistic and frankly, ignorant, but delving into the philosophical and historical evidence, there is some truth to the statement.

Historical
Religious wars have not claimed deaths anywhere near as much as terrestial,political and tribal wars have.Worst genocides in history are oddly enough, from secularists governments:

1.Mao Ze-Dong (China, 1958-61 and 1966-69, Tibet 1949-50) 49-78 million deaths
2.Jozef Stalin (USSR, 1932-39) 23 million deaths (the purges plus Ukraine's famine)
3.Adolf Hitler (Germany, 1939-1945) 12 million deaths (concentration camps and civilians WWII)
4.Leopold II of Belgium (Congo, 1886-1908) 8 million deaths.
5.Hideki Tojo (Japan, 1941-44) 5 Million (civilians in WWII)

In the absence of religion, humans will still find a reason to kill each other.The Rwandan genocide was a tribal affair,even though 99% of Somalis practise the same brand of islam, they have been fighting for decades because of differences in clans.

Communist china is the worst perpetrator of human rights violations.Especially towards tibetans.North Korea is virtually a prison and a rogue state, where human liberties are at the mercy of the state.this is a also a communist and secular state.

Denmark and the scandinavian countries are often given as examples of thriving secular states, but one thing people fail to mention is its splendid governance structure,democracy and fiscal policies.Simply being "secular" does not mean that you will not end up with a corrupt undemocratic country.Many of the Eastern European countries are poor, and yet are very secular.America is the most powerful country in the world,yet it is one of the most religious in the developed world.Should we then attribute religion to its success?

Dubai, Qatar Kuwait are 99% religious, and one of the richest countries in the world?should we then ignore the vast oil wealth and declare religion to be the reason behind the economic success of the countries?

Philosophical evidence?


Will follow soon........ (too tired for today.

A world of only mulsims

-less food for a world that is still struggling with starvation; no pork, no ham
-less jobs for people; no alcohol industry/no alcohol
-no sex icons and sexy celebrities- say goodbye to Madonna, Rihanna, Prince, Dbanj etc
-more polygamy
-no jackie chan's drunken master movie
-Arabic becomes the most important language
-Constant persecution of homosexuals
-No capitalism, no banking- islamic finance take over
-No teaching of evolution which debunks the creation in the Koran.
-blasphemy laws
-death at Hajj from overcrowding


A world of only christians

-A world still left with disagreement between catholics, protestants, baptists, mormons etc
-No teaching of evolution which debunks the creationism in the bible
-constant persecution of homosexuals
-no to birth control or condoms
-double taxation; tax from govt and collection of tithes/offering from everyone and rich pastors and church administrators
- outlawing masturbation
- overcrowding of Isreal/jerusalem during pilgrimage
- banning of archeology which finds fossils that debunk creationism
-intelligent design becomes science
-increase in fake miracles and fake pastors
-increase in witchcraft accusations and persection

logicboy:

Why are you so afraid of debate?

Afraid of debates, you're so funny. i don't need debates, that's all. i need more important things.

@OP,
Denmark and NewZealand do not only have good economies, they ranked highest in the corruption perception index in 2011, making them the least corrupt nations in the world. If you ask you question and tie it to religion, christians, especially, will tend to dissociaate themselves from the concept of religion. Another way to ask is 'how come countries that do not take seriously the teachings of the bible, koran, book of mormon etc have better economies, life expectancy and standard of living while also ranking as the least corrupt nations in the world in Tranparency International's Corruption Perception Index. Contrary to your thinking that this thread could not be derailed, christian zealot will soon derail it to 'what is religion/christianity is not a religion' and somebody is already doing that.

AlvinPlantinga: A world without religion or a world without God or a world without fanatical religion?Three questions with three different answers.

A theist might argue a world without religion is an oxymoron.Since it implies a world without a creator,and without a creator there would be no world to speak of.
But assuming for an instance that there was no religion,no God, there is a very strong likelyhood that the world would be a very bad place.[/b]This might sound simplistic and frankly, ignorant, but delving into the philosophical and historical evidence, there is some truth to the statement.

1) An atheist would say that a creator never existed
2) Even with religion, slavery and genocide thrived in theocratic states.

AlvinPlantinga:
[b]Historical
Religious wars have not claimed deaths anywhere near as much as terrestial,political and tribal wars have.Worst genocides in history are oddly enough, from secularists governments:

1.Mao Ze-Dong (China, 1958-61 and 1966-69, Tibet 1949-50) 49-78 million deaths
2.Jozef Stalin (USSR, 1932-39) 23 million deaths (the purges plus Ukraine's famine)
[s]3.Adolf Hitler (Germany, 1939-1945) 12 million deaths (concentration camps and civilians WWII)[/s]
[s]4.Leopold II of Belgium (Congo, 1886-1908) 8 million deaths[/s].
5.Hideki Tojo (Japan, 1941-44) 5 Million (civilians in WWII)

Hitler was a christian. Leopold 2 was a catholic. Religious wars have cause more deaths

Examples of religious deaths-

-Hitler
-Crusades
-Spanish Inquisition
-European slavery and colonialism in Africa
-Isrealites lists of holy wars in the bible
-Bosnia genocide
-War in Iraq- Bush called it a crusade.

Christianity has caused so many wars since BC to the modern day. I havent even mentioned other religious wars of muslims

AlvinPlantinga:
In the absence of religion, humans will still find a reason to kill each other.The Rwandan genocide was a tribal affair,even though 99% of Somalis practise the same brand of islam, they have been fighting for decades because of differences in clans.

1)Religion gives people one more reason to kill. One less reason to kill if you remove religion

2) Rwandan genocide was greatly enhanced with christianity.

AlvinPlantinga:

Communist china is the worst perpetrator of human rights violations.Especially towards tibetans.North Korea is virtually a prison and a rogue state, where human liberties are at the mercy of the state.this is a also a communist and secular state.

1) Communism itself is a religion. Even without that, you'd find that China and North Korea are the only two atheistic countries with such problems due to communism.

AlvinPlantinga:
Denmark and the scandinavian countries are often given as examples of thriving secular states, but one thing people fail to mention is its splendid governance structure,democracy and fiscal policies.Simply being "secular" does not mean that you will not end up with a corrupt undemocratic country.Many of the Eastern European countries are poor, and yet are very secular.America is the most powerful country in the world,yet it is one of the most religious in the developed world.Should we then attribute religion to its success?

1)Name any Eastern European country that has less than 18% atheists that is poorer than Nigeria. income per head.
2)The most literate countries are also atheistic.
3) China is the most powerful country in the world
4) America has about 10% of atheists in its population. 310 million in America. 31 million atheists. That is half the poulation of the UK and thirty times the most atheistic country- Estonia.

AlvinPlantinga:
Dubai, Qatar Kuwait are 99% religious, and one of the richest countries in the world?should we then ignore the vast oil wealth and declare religion to be the reason behind the economic success of the countries?

1) Dubai is not a country

2) Qatar is the richest country by only one type of measurement. However, in size of economy, USA is the largest.

this is a senseless topic.

Have i answered your "question" now logicboy?

davidylan: this is a senseless topic.

Have i answered your "question" now logicboy?

Can't you be a nice guy instead of an A$$hol£ for once in your life?

logicboy:

Can't you be a nice guy instead of an A$$hol£ for once in your life?

Believe me, i try. I just like to be as objective as possible.

For example, your list of the 3 least religious countries conveniently ignores the FACT that those nations were once bastions of christianity barely 100-200 yrs ago. Those countries did not become what they are today by virtue of being atheist... infact it can be argued that the relative prosperity of european nations (who exported christianity to us by the way) is the reason more are turning to atheism (i.e. life has become so good they suddenly have no need for God again).

davidylan:

Believe me, i try. I just like to be as objective as possible.

For example, your list of the 3 least religious countries conveniently ignores the FACT that those nations were once bastions of christianity barely 100-200 yrs ago. Those countries did not become what they are today by virtue of being atheist... infact it can be argued that the relative prosperity of european nations (who exported christianity to us by the way) is the reason more are turning to atheism (i.e. life has become so good they suddenly have no need for God again).

Wrong. They became atheists because they became more intelligent. Did you also notice their literacy rates ompared to your religious countries?

logicboy:

Wrong. They became atheists because they became more intelligent. Did you also notice their literacy rates ompared to your religious countries?

Daft... seriously daft, sometimes i wonder if you are older than a 4yr old.
America, England, France and Israel (highly religious countries) have contributed FAR MORE nobel laureates than Estonia, New Zealand, Denmark and Sweden put together... so why are those countries not bastions of atheism today? Are they less intelligent too?

Literacy rates are equally as high in Israel and Lebanon so what?

davidylan:

Daft... seriously daft, sometimes i wonder if you are older than a 4yr old.
America, England, France and Israel (highly religious countries) have contributed FAR MORE nobel laureates than Estonia, New Zealand, Denmark and Sweden put together... so why are those countries not bastions of atheism today? Are they less intelligent too?

Literacy rates are equally as high in Israel and Lebanon so what?

10% of America is atheistic. 10% of 310 million is 31 million. 31 million is 30 times the number of people in Estonia. 31 million is more than the poulation of denmark, estonia and sweden put together.

logicboy:


10% of America is atheistic. 10% of 310 million is 31 million. 31 million is 30 times the number of people in Estonia. 31 million is more than the poulation of denmark, estonia and sweden put together.

ok?

LogicBoy:

Maybe a definition of a religious war needs to be defined.

A religious war (Latin: bellum sacrum) is a war caused by, or justified by, religious differences (web deifnition).King leopald was a christian(so he claimed) but the congo massacres were not by any breadth a Religious war.King leopald was an opportunist and the war was a part of his quest of making money from the vast mineral and ivoy deposits of the DRC.

Adolph hitler a Christian? Hitler's religious beliefs are a mystery.he had his own brand of christianty.As he spread his Nazi propoganda he became hostile to christianity and jews and churches were closed and burned down.Nevertheless, remember we are discussing religious wars, the world war 2 was not by any stretch of the imagination a religious war.The murder of jews by hitler was a racial massacre.Hitler was antisemitic.

The number of people killed in the crusades has been estimated to be about 200,000 in a span of 200 years!About 15,000 people killed in the spanish inquisition.

European slavery and colonialism?How is that a religious war?Slavery and colonialism was an expansionism philosophy of Europe.Resource strapped Europe saw fertile lands, untapped resources and Free labour in Africa.With a budding industrial revolution in Europe and a growing population,Europe embarked in colonialism.

You will have to put down facts and numbers for all of your claims.You will have to rewrite history to claim that religious wars have killed more people than political, tribal and territorial wars.And by Religious wars, i mean wars simply started and porpgated because of rteligion.Not wars started by a leader who claims to be christian, yet the war is about tribe.

Just as Qatar,Kuwait and UAE are rich because of Oil wealth and not religion.Ask an economist why Denmark is rich.Vast Oil and natural gas in the North Sea, Free trade policies and sound governance.

Davidylan, did non of your parents teach you habits of courtesy? How come the only job they can be credited for is raising social [network] misfits like you. The first statement that cme out your paws was insultive. Dont you have any other way of rebbutting an argument aside from hurling insults. I bet you parents were misfits themselves because I believe like begets like.

A very good question.

logicboy:

Thanks for your input.

What if religion itself is sin? Isnt that a good question?

Because, as a Christian, he is not used to debating. He talks and his mates agrees by shouting hallelujah. Besides, he knows he'd be on the backfoot all the time in the debate. The Christian theology is very cruel to debate for. It is quite difficult, if not impossible, to support in debates like this and come out making good sense. That is the cross all Christians have to carry till the day they leave this earth.

logicboy:

Why are you so afraid of debate?

AlvinPlantinga: LogicBoy:

Maybe a definition of a religious war needs to be defined.

A religious war (Latin: bellum sacrum) is a war caused by, or justified by, religious differences (web deifnition).King leopald was a christian(so he claimed) but the congo massacres were not by any breadth a Religious war.King leopald was an opportunist and the war was a part of his quest of making money from the vast mineral and ivoy deposits of the DRC.

Adolph hitler a Christian? Hitler's religious beliefs are a mystery.he had his own brand of christianty.As he spread his Nazi propoganda he became hostile to christianity and jews and churches were closed and burned down.Nevertheless, remember we are discussing religious wars, the world war 2 was not by any stretch of the imagination a religious war.The murder of jews by hitler was a racial massacre.Hitler was antisemitic.

The number of people killed in the crusades has been estimated to be about 200,000 in a span of 200 years!About 15,000 people killed in the spanish inquisition.

European slavery and colonialism?How is that a religious war?Slavery and colonialism was an expansionism philosophy of Europe.Resource strapped Europe saw fertile lands, untapped resources and Free labour in Africa.With a budding industrial revolution in Europe and a growing population,Europe embarked in colonialism.

You will have to put down facts and numbers for all of your claims.You will have to rewrite history to claim that religious wars have killed more people than political, tribal and territorial wars.And by Religious wars, i mean wars simply started and porpgated because of rteligion.Not wars started by a leader who claims to be christian, yet the war is about tribe.

Just as Qatar,Kuwait and UAE are rich because of Oil wealth and not religion.Ask an economist why Denmark is rich.Vast Oil and natural gas in the North Sea, Free trade policies and sound governance.

You mention sound governance for one of the reason for wealth in Denmark. Denmark's secular governemnt is the reason for sound governance. Nigeria has oil, yet it is not prospering. Also, you cant have sound governance without separation of church and state.


A for religious wars;

European slavery was boosted by religion. Did they enslave fellow british and portuguese christians? No. Even pope Gregory ix put a canon for the enslavement for non christians. Also, churches have apologised for their roles in the Transatlantic slavery.


I also never said that religious wars have cause more deaths than political, economic and tribal wars. I was saying that religious wars have killen more than any atheists murderer or genocidal leader

Jenwitemi: Because, as a Christian, he is not used to debating. He talks and his mates agrees by shouting hallelujah. Besides, he knows he'd be on the backfoot all the time in the debate. The Christian theology is very cruel to debate for. It is quite difficult, if not impossible, to support in debates like this and come out making good sense. That is the cross all Christians have to carry till the day they leave this earth.

hahaha! I am not surprised. I had to even beg him to comment on this thread.

What about a world without atheist?


What a wonderful world it will be....

ijawkid: What about a world without atheist?


What a wonderful world it will be....

You wouldnt be using your computer/mobile phone without atheists.

@logicboy...
Look @ u...

B4 phones came weren't humans living

Phones that might soon give us brain tumors and cancer...

Lol

logicboy:

You mention sound governance for one of the reason for wealth in Denmark. Denmark's secular governemnt is the reason for sound governance. Nigeria has oil, yet it is not prospering. Also, you cant have sound governance without separation of church and state.

I will take you back to the middle east.99% religious, with Oil and prospering.Denmark is a secular state, but Atheism in itself has no governing fundamentals.Atheism is simply non-belief.The separation of church and state has no bearing on whether a country will have corrupt free leaders or poor governance structures.

Nigeria and Qatar are two examples.Saudi arabia is much more radical and religious than Nigeria.both have Oil wwealth.There is no separation of state and church in Saudi arabia.Both have oil.And Yet Saudi Arabia is thriving.The same can be said of many of the gulf states.Turkey is a very religious country over 90%, with a big population, yet thriving.

Now, i am not by any chance suggesting that religion is cause of the success of these countries.My point is to illustrate that on one hand you have secular states thriving,poor secular states, rich religious states, poor religious states. At the end of the day, its a question of governance, and how a country utilizes its natural resources.

A for religious wars;

European slavery was boosted by religion.

Substantiate.

Did they enslave fellow british and portuguese christians?

Why would they?They came to africa because they thought africans had inferior intelligence.Africans were strong and agile,and perrfect for their rice and wheat farms.

No. Even pope Gregory ix put a canon for the enslavement for non christians. Also, churches have apologised for their roles in the Transatlantic slavery.


I also never said that religious wars have cause more deaths than political, economic and tribal wars. I was saying that religious wars have killen more than any atheists murderer or genocidal leader

In Summary:

Yo asked how the world would have been without religion:

1.History tells us that non-religious wars and genocides have caused more deaths and destruction than all combined religious wars.This goes to show that even in the absence of religion, there is no reason to believe that the world would have been a more peaceful place devoid of wars and terror.Human nature and natural selection will always ensure a fight for the fittest to survive.this competitive nature in humans will always be manifested in conflict.

2.I have shown that the prosperity of a nation is not pegged to its Religiosity or lack of it thereof.Just as Denmark is a highly secular nation with alot of wealth, so is Qatar and many middle east nations which are highly religious.A well governed country whether religious or not, will always thrive.

AlvinPlantinga:

I will take you back to the middle east.99% religious, with Oil and prospering.Denmark is a secular state, but Atheism in itself has no governing fundamentals.Atheism is simply non-belief.The separation of church and state has no bearing on whether a country will have corrupt free leaders or poor governance structures.

Nigeria and Qatar are two examples.Saudi arabia is much more radical and religious than Nigeria.both have Oil wwealth.There is no separation of state and church in Saudi arabia.Both have oil.And Yet Saudi Arabia is thriving.The same can be said of many of the gulf states.Turkey is a very religious country over 90%, with a big population, yet thriving.

Now, i am not by any chance suggesting that religion is cause of the success of these countries.My point is to illustrate that on one hand you have secular states thriving,poor secular states, rich religious states, poor religious states. At the end of the day, its a question of governance, and how a country utilizes its natural resources.

1) The middle eastern countries you mention are economically strong only due to oil. Having a secular state and separation of church and stated is key to having a peaceful nation and a reliable governemnt- secularism does not guarantee a good government but it is a prerequisite. Atheism and agnosticism leads to a secular government. You cant have a secular government in a total christian country the top 10 peaceful countries in the world are all secular.

What can you say about freedom equality in those middle eastern countries that you mention. They may be rich but not free or more peaceful. Furthermore, they are rich from natural resource and not form manufacturing or providing services.

AlvinPlantinga:
Why would they?They came to africa because they thought africans had inferior intelligence.Africans were strong and agile,and perrfect for their rice and wheat farms.

It still doesnt make enough motive for slavery. They also believed in the curse of ham and accepted the slavery in the bible.

AlvinPlantinga:
In Summary:

Yo asked how the world would have been without religion:

1.History tells us that non-religious wars and genocides have caused more deaths and destruction than all combined religious wars.This goes to show that even in the absence of religion, there is no reason to believe that the world would have been a more peaceful place devoid of wars and terror.Human nature and natural selection will always ensure a fight for the fittest to survive.this competitive nature in humans will always be manifested in conflict.

2.I have shown that the prosperity of a nation is not pegged to its Religiosity or lack of it thereof.Just as Denmark is a highly secular nation with alot of wealth, so is Qatar and many middle east nations which are highly religious.A well governed country whether religious or not, will always thrive.

1) History tells us that without religion, there would have been less wars, less slavery and burning of witches.

2) Properity is not only riches. There is peace, freedom and equality- three of which are never present together when the government is not secular