logicboy:

1) The middle eastern countries you mention are economically strong only due to oil.

And good governance.Simply having oil will not enrich any country.Nigeria is a classic example.The investments in infrastructure, health care and education in the oil rich countries of the gulf are examples of good governance.Whilst in Nigeria,politicians have used oil wealth to line up their pockets.

Having a secular state and separation of church and stated is key to having a peaceful nation and a reliable governemnt-

Assertions normally don't win debates.

secularism does not guarantee a good government but it is a prerequisite.

Again. assertions don't win debate.repeating a claim many times over does not make it right.Turkey is by todays standards, a very well run country.But 90% religious.So is Malaysia and Singapore.These are countries where religion is enshrined in the constitution.

Atheism and agnosticism leads to a secular government.
You cant have a secular government in a total christian country the top 10 peaceful countries in the world are all secular.

Back to my previous post.Governance, governance and governance.

What can you say about freedom equality in those middle eastern countries that you mention.

freedom of rights in those countries, middle eastern countries is obviously appalling.And this is a direct consequence of islam.Cross over to turkey, and you find the total opposite.An islamic country with rights and freedoms that could match many european countries.Israel still a very religious country, but one of the most democratic countries in the world.

North Korea and China, secular states, one of the worst offenders of human rights in the world.

It still doesnt make enough motive for slavery. They also believed in the curse of ham and accepted the slavery in the bible.

1) History tells us that without religion, there would have been less wars, less slavery and burning of witches.

there might have been less burning of witches, but that is child's play compared to the millions of people massacred in non-religious deaths.

2) Properity is not only riches. There is peace, freedom and equality- three of which are never present together when the government is not secular

Wrong.North Korea and china, secular, but fail in freedom and equality.

Furthermore,even without religion, earthquakes, tsunamis i.e Natural disasters would still occur.diseases, injuries and aging will still be with us.

You have so far failed to show how this things will be affected by the absence of religion.you have failed to make an argument on how cultural conflicts would have never happened in the absence of religion.Or how fight for land due to migration and scarcity of resources would have been affected by religion or lack thereof.

And with that, i end my discourse because i think i have put my points across and am finding myself repeating the same points over and over again.No hard feelings though.

The ideal be a world without fanatics religious...

AlvinPlantinga:

And good governance.Simply having oil will not enrich any country.Nigeria is a classic example.The investments in infrastructure, health care and education in the oil rich countries of the gulf are examples of good governance.Whilst in Nigeria,politicians have used oil wealth to line up their pockets.



Assertions normally don't win debates.



Again. assertions don't win debate.repeating a claim many times over does not make it right.Turkey is by todays standards, a very well run country.But 90% religious.So is Malaysia and Singapore.These are countries where religion is enshrined in the constitution.


Back to my previous post.Governance, governance and governance.




freedom of rights in those countries, middle eastern countries is obviously appalling.And this is a direct consequence of islam.Cross over to turkey, and you find the total opposite.An islamic country with rights and freedoms that could match many european countries.Israel still a very religious country, but one of the most democratic countries in the world.

North Korea and China, secular states, one of the worst offenders of human rights in the world.



there might have been less burning of witches, but that is child's play compared to the millions of people massacred in non-religious deaths.



Wrong.North Korea and china, secular, but fail in freedom and equality.

Furthermore,even without religion, earthquakes, tsunamis i.e Natural disasters would still occur.diseases, injuries and aging will still be with us.

You have so far failed to show how this things will be affected by the absence of religion.you have failed to make an argument on how cultural conflicts would have never happened in the absence of religion.Or how fight for land due to migration and scarcity of resources would have been affected by religion or lack thereof.

And with that, i end my discourse because i think i have put my points across and am finding myself repeating the same points over and over again.No hard feelings though.

1) The middle eastern countries you mention have lack freedom and the equality we see in atheistic european countries. They may be better than Nigeria but remember that Nigeria is more populous and was colonized + enslaved


2) I didnt make an assertion. It is fact. Show me a country that has a strong economy, is very peaceful, has equalit and freedom and the country must have a secular government

3) North Korea and China are communist countries. Communist is a religion its own. Furthermore, I said that secularism in government does not guarantee good governance but it is a prerequisite for good governance, equality and freedom

4) Without religion there would be less wars, less conflict and more freedom. You can not deny this fact

this is like asking, if we removed 5 inmates people out of a prison population of 2000 hardened criminals, will the prison be safer. of course not

davidylan:

Daft... seriously daft, sometimes i wonder if you are older than a 4yr old.
America, England, France and Israel (highly religious countries) have contributed FAR MORE nobel laureates than Estonia, New Zealand, Denmark and Sweden put together... so why are those countries not bastions of atheism today? Are they less intelligent too?

Literacy rates are equally as high in Israel and Lebanon so what?

Israel is not a religious country about 40 percent of its population are atheist or agnostics. . .

buzugee: this is like asking, if we removed 5 inmates people out of a prison population of 2000 hardened criminals, will the prison be safer. of course not

Simple maths- the prison would be actually safer.

If you remove the 5 most violent trouble makers, you would have much much more safer prison

Relgion is the violent trouble makers

davidylan:

Believe me, i try. I just like to be as objective as possible.

For example, your list of the 3 least religious countries conveniently ignores the FACT that those nations were once bastions of christianity barely 100-200 yrs ago. Those countries did not become what they are today by virtue of being atheist... infact it can be argued that the relative prosperity of european nations (who exported christianity to us by the way) is the reason more are turning to atheism (i.e. life has become so good they suddenly have no need for God again).

great observation

logicboy:

Simple maths- the prison would be actually safer.

If you remove the 5 most violent trouble makers, you would have much much more safer prison

Relgion is the violent trouble makers

the violent trouble maker is ego, politics, superiority and greed. all the world wars have been a result of these.

buzugee: the violent trouble maker is ego, politics, superiority and greed. all the world wars have been a result of these.

Slapping of a girl by Pastor Oyedepo and saying he will do it again- Ego

Sharia law theocracy- politics

Christian curse of ham, denial of rights by sharia law to non-muslims- superiority

collecting tithe from people suffering from povery and avoiding taxes- greed.


Religion is the violent trouble maker

buzugee: great observation

When did you start supporting Davidylan's f00lishness?

logicboy:

Slapping of a girl by Pastor Oyedepo and saying he will do it again- Ego

Sharia law theocracy- politics

Christian curse of ham, denial of rights by sharia law to non-muslims- superiority

collecting tithe from people suffering from povery and avoiding taxes- greed.


Religion is the violent trouble maker

hardly sweat breakers. try this on for size

slavery and the plunder of every third world country in the world -ego

genocide of almost every indigenous race on the planet - superiority

unfair trade and plunder of every third world nation - greed

notice how your violent episodes are isolated minor episodes ( like oyedepo slapping a woman ). notice how my episodes are episodes of world wide violence and genocide.

logicboy:

When did you start supporting Davidylan's f00lishness?

lol i think he is a learned man. see i am what you would call a 'strata respecter' what that means is that i believe if you want to live long, you should always pay respect to those who came before you.Davidylan, Frosbel and Joagbaje used to, and still somewhat bang hard in this section. they are the head niggaz in charge ( HNIC ). so i gotta give them props when i can.

buzugee: hardly sweat breakers. try this on for size

slavery and the plunder of every third world country in the world -ego

genocide of almost every indigenous race on the planet - superiority

unfair trade and plunder of every third world nation - greed

notice how your violent episodes are isolated minor episodes ( like oyedepo slapping a woman ). notice how my episodes are episodes of world wide violence and genocide.

Huh? The burning/slapping of witches is isolated when it comes to christianity?

Are there not religious genocides?

Did religion not support the transatlantic slave trade

Is the catholic church in italy not worth billions yet people starve?

logicboy:

Huh? The burning/slapping of witches is isolated when it comes to christianity?

Are there not religious genocides?

Did religion not support the transatlantic slave trade

Is the catholic church in italy not worth billions yet people starve?

YOU HAVE A STRONG POINT. ok lets just say its a combination of factors that collude to make the world unbearable. i wouldnt single out religion. lately, religion has taken a backseat to politics greed and weaponry power ( ego )in causing violence.

buzugee: YOU HAVE A STRONG POINT. ok lets just say its a combination of factors that collude to make the world unbearable. i wouldnt single out religion. lately, religion has taken a backseat to politics greed and weaponry power ( ego )in causing violence.

but....I'm addicted to bashing religion. Do you expect me not to single it out

logicboy:

but....I'm addicted to bashing religion. Do you expect me not to single it out

ahhhh you also have a strong point in this your assertion. you and religion get along fine like oil and water

Not necessarily when one think deep enough about it. Mankind would only find other means of dividing itself against itself and keeps on spilling it's own blood. Religion is not the root cause of man's problems, it only helps to magnify them and keep them going. Religion is the grave symptom (one of many) of the root cause of man's woes.

As long as man cannot recognize, face and solve his inner trauma, his inner fragmentation, he will always be at conflict with himself no matter what he creates, religion or otherwise. Man is gravely sick and he does not fully know it yet.

logicboy: Would a world without religion be better?





As an atheist, this question is at the back of my head everyday. I look at the 3 least religious countries (Estonia, Denmark and sweden) and I find that they are countries with strong economies, freedom and a very very very literate population, which are in contrast to the 3 most religious countries, (Egypt, Bangladesh and Sri Lanka). http://dailyatheist..co.uk/2009/02/most-and-least-religious-countries-in.html

So please, I want to hear your differing opinions on this matter.


The good thing about this topic is that it can not be derailed because it can be debated from any angle, be it an atheist v muslim or christian v atheist or religious wars v communist wars etc.


Also think about[b]
-How would the world be if everyone was christian?
-How would the world be if everyone was muslim?
-How would the world be if everyone was atheist[/b]

Its time to blame religion right


Altho I have never supported wars more or else wars perpatrated by professed christians....

Its against Christs principles..

Definitly false christianity will engage in genocides,wars and other vices that has added to mans mystery...


One thing I knw is Jesus will repudiate those who have engaged in blood shed all in his name..

They will not inherit Gods kingdom..

So atheists I have to agree wit u on this 1 that false religion has done so much harm than good...

But logic boy the phones we r using that are been produced by atheists are soon to give us brain tumors and cancer....lol

The ozone layer depleted by ur guys r rili gonna cause us problems...

In all every human who has and don't wanna obey Gods word wether professed godlike persons or atheists has added to d worlds wahala...

the two major religions are the ones causing problems in the world. They tell u dat their religion is better than others. Whereas, their books contain fictitious stories!

ijawkid: Its time to blame religion right


Altho I have never supported wars more or else wars perpatrated by professed christians....

Its against Christs principles..

Definitly false christianity will engage in genocides,wars and other vices that has added to mans mystery...


One thing I knw is Jesus will repudiate those who have engaged in blood shed all in his name..

They will not inherit Gods kingdom..

So atheists I have to agree wit u on this 1 that false religion has done so much harm than good...

But logic boy the phones we r using that are been produced by atheists are soon to give us brain tumors and cancer....lol

The ozone layer depleted by ur guys r rili gonna cause us problems...

In all every human who has and don't wanna obey Gods word wether professed godlike persons or atheists has added to d worlds wahala...

As usual, you always bring wrong arguments.


1) Holy war is supported in the bible. Christians like you dont read the bible.

2) You claim that all the bad things done by christians (eg slavery, genocide, burning witched) are done because they are fake christians. However;
a) Slavery, genocide of unbelievers and burning witches are all supported in the bible
b) It is also simple to counter-claim that all the good things done by christians were not done because they were christians but human beings


2) Most scientists are atheists. You claim that the mobile phones that scientists creates gives us cancer. No, mobile phens have a very littl chance of giving people cancer. Furthermore, why dont you mention the benefits of the mobile phone? Is it because you cant dial God's number as he doesnt exist. What about other things that scientists have done for you? medicine? Aeroplanes etc.

Jenwitemi: Not necessarily when one think deep enough about it. Mankind would only find other means of dividing itself against itself and keeps on spilling it's own blood. Religion is not the root cause of man's problems, it only helps to magnify them and keep them going. Religion is the grave symptom (one of many) of the root cause of man's woes.

As long as man cannot recognize, face and solve his inner trauma, his inner fragmentation, he will always be at conflict with himself no matter what he creates, religion or otherwise. Man is gravely sick and he does not fully know it yet.

Religion is a cause of war. It is just that it is not the only cause. Remove religion and there would be less wars. There would still be wars but there would be less.

Jenwitemi: Because, as a Christian, he is not used to debating. He talks and his mates agrees by shouting hallelujah. Besides, he knows he'd be on the backfoot all the time in the debate. The Christian theology is very cruel to debate for. It is quite difficult, if not impossible, to support in debates like this and come out making good sense. That is the cross all Christians have to carry till the day they leave this earth.

Lazy and ignorant analysis. Ever heard of christian apologists? Not everybody has the same inclinations and likes. That you know something does not necessarily mean you love to teach it, discuss it or talk about it, especially on a forum. There are very much more important things

Image123:
Lazy and ignorant analysis. Ever heard of christian apologists? Not everybody has the same inclinations and likes. That you know something does not necessarily mean you love to teach it, discuss it or talk about it, especially on a forum. There are very much more important things

Everybody has to defend their claims. If you're a christian saying hat your religion is good, be prepared to answer why it is good. If you're a christian that doesnt disturb anybody, then no one should disturb you.

However, the bolded part of our quote shows that you're a hypocrite. You come here to preach and so, you can not claim that you do not love to discuss or talk about you religion.

Is this not you preaching about good children and god/the bible;
https://www.nairaland.com/564760/parents-give-us-good-children

^i'm not exactly talking about myself. i'm talking in general. There are millions of topics, it's not every topic you want to discuss, and it's not everybody you want to discuss a particular topic with. It's not even everytime you want to discuss a particular topic.

Image123: ^i'm not exactly talking about myself. i'm talking in general. There are millions of topics, it's not every topic you want to discuss, and it's not everybody you want to discuss a particular topic with. It's not even everytime you want to discuss a particular topic.

Agreed.

However, christians normally go into ignore mode if their religion is challenged in any topic

logicboy:


Agreed.

However, christians normally go into ignore mode if their religion is challenged in any topic

Not all christians are debaters, there's more to life than debates. Go and look for christian apologists if you're looking for endless 'debates'.

Image123:
Not all christians are debaters, there's more to life than debates. Go and look for christian apologists if you're looking for endless 'debates'.

There's more to life than preaching. Preaching is a one-sided debate.

Christian apologist prefer websites to forums. They put their message up and just want people to only read it.

logicboy: Would a world without religion be better?

In the absence of religion, harmony will still be elusive. Once upon a time that experiment was conducted in Eastern Europe. Remember the Soviet Union? (Although that was a dictatorship).

Some of the wildest fanatics I have ever had the displeasure of encountering were a couple of English football fans.

Some of us will fiercely fight and protect that in which we support or believe in be it religion or otherwise.

Humans and emotions eh. . . hmmm can emotions guide us to the/a truth?

Without religion how much of a society's culture will be left?

Also think about[b]
-How would the world be if everyone was christian?
-How would the world be if everyone was muslim?[/b]

Lol if the population of the world all happened to be either Muslim or Christian (aside from varying denominations which may cause friction) what then will be the point of heaven and hell?
If everyone won the lottery the prize will be meaningless? Do we all win or Do we all lose?

-How would the world be if everyone was atheist

Now this is an interesting question.

If we were all atheists would we accord exclusive ownership of "Christmas" to Santa Claus?

Even within each demographic there is diversity, and hence there are degrees in each class. Atheists are humans so as humans atheists will still exercise faith (not in the legitimacy of a god(s)) but in man, lovers, art etc.

We may actually be more divided without "religion".

ijawkid: What about a world without atheist?

Another interesting question.

However I'm relieved that mankind is not exclusively one or the other....despite the disharmony and arguments if not for theology, science, philosophy, unbelievers and believers etc some of us may have been complacent in whatever we've been told and not be motivated/challenged to independently seek, confirm search for answers/truth.

emöfine2:

In the absence of religion, harmony will still be elusive. Once upon a time that experiment was conducted in Eastern Europe. Remember the Soviet Union? (Although that was a dictatorship).

Some of the wildest fanatics I have ever had the displeasure of encountering were a couple of English football fans.

Some of us will fiercely fight and protect that in which we support or believe in be it religion or otherwise.

Humans and emotions eh. . . hmmm can emotions guide us to the/a truth?

Without religion how much of culture will be left?







Lol if the population of the world all happened to be either Muslim or Christian (aside from varying denominations which may cause friction) what then will be the point of heaven and hell?
If everyone won the lottery the prize will be meaningless? Do we all win or Do we all lose?



Now this is an interesting question.

If we were all atheists would we accord exclusive ownership of "Christmas" to Santa Claus?

Even within each demographic there is diversity, and hence there are degrees in each class. Atheists are humans so as humans atheists will still exercise faith (not in the legitimacy of a god(s)) but in man, lovers, art etc.

We may actually be more divided without "religion".



Another interesting question.

However I'm relieved that mankind is not exclusively one or the other....despite the disharmony and arguments if not for theology, science, philosophy, unbelievers and believers etc some of us may have been complacent in whatever we've been told and not be motivated/challenged to independently seek, confirm search for answers/truth.

Wrong.

Remove religion, and we would still have wars. However, we would have less wars. Atheism 1 Religion 0

The most peaceful countries are atheistic or secular ones. Atheism 1 Religion 0




Fruthermore, we can see European countries that are almost Utopian. There is no religious country that is near to that.

logicboy:



As usual, you always bring wrong arguments.


1) Holy war is supported in the bible. Christians like you dont read the bible.

2) You claim that all the bad things done by christians (eg slavery, genocide, burning witched) are done because they are fake christians. However;
a) Slavery, genocide of unbelievers and burning witches are all supported in the bible
b) It is also simple to counter-claim that all the good things done by christians were not done because they were christians but human beings


2) Most scientists are atheists. You claim that the mobile phones that scientists creates gives us cancer. No, mobile phens have a very littl chance of giving people cancer. Furthermore, why dont you mention the benefits of the mobile phone? Is it because you cant dial God's number as he doesnt exist. What about other things that scientists have done for you? medicine? Aeroplanes etc.

I am christian remember??

True christianity started by christ,d early apostles and d 1st century followers never engaged nor encouraged warfare...

Infact Jesus was against war....u dig??

""Turn d other chick""
""Those who kill by d sword die by it""
""A servant of God does not need to fight""(2timothy 2:24)
""We have a spiritual warfare not physical""

All 1st century christians never engaged in either world wars,tribal wars,national wars etc....

False christianity did!!!!!!!

U can go back to history to confirm it...


And may I ask u,who are those producing d nuclear weapons,jet fighters,biological weapons etc?

Russians are good @ that and I am so damn sure that russians are atheists...

Remember God will do away with any ruining d earth.....

I want to live in a world where badness in its entirety will be a thing of d past..

False religion,atheists.all those who don't want to confirm to Gods standard are those ruining this earth and there end is approaching....

ijawkid:



I am christian remember??

True christianity started by christ,d early apostles and d 1st century followers never engaged nor encouraged warfare...

Infact Jesus was against war....u dig??

""Turn d other chick""
""Those who kill by d sword die by it""
""A servant of God does not need to fight""(2timothy 2:24)
""We have a spiritual warfare not physical""

All 1st century christians never engaged in either world wars,tribal wars,national wars etc....

False christianity did!!!!!!!

U can go back to history to confirm it...


And may I ask u,who are those producing d nuclear weapons,jet fighters,biological weapons etc?

Russians are good @ that and I am so damn sure that russians are atheists...

Remember God will do away with any ruining d earth.....

I want to live in a world where badness in its entirety will be a thing of d past..

False religion,atheists.all those who don't want to confirm to Gods standard are those ruining this earth and there end is approaching....

Slavery in the new and old testaments;


Leviticus 25:44
"Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves."

Romans 13:1-5

Titus 3:1,
"Remind the people to be subject to rulers and authorities, to be obedient, to be ready to do whatever is good."

Titus 2:9
"Teach slaves to be subject to their masters in everything, to try to please them, not to talk back to them"

1 Peter 2:18
"Slaves, submit yourselves to your masters with all respect, not only to those who are good and considerate, but also to those who are harsh."

Col 3:22
"Slaves, obey your earthly masters in everything; and do it, not only when their eye is on you and to win their favor, but with sincerity of heart and reverence for the Lord."

1 Cor 7:21-22
"21 Were you a slave when you were called? Don't let it trouble you—although if you can gain your freedom, do so.
22 For he who was a slave when he was called by the Lord is the Lord's freedman; similarly, he who was a free man when he was called is Christ's slave."

Eph 6:5
"Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, and with sincerity of heart, just as you would obey Christ."
======================================================================

Genocide in the old testament;

Kill Men, Women, and Children
"Then I heard the LORD say to the other men, "Follow him through the city and kill everyone whose forehead is not marked. Show no mercy; have no pity! Kill them all – old and young, girls and women and little children. But do not touch anyone with the mark. Begin your task right here at the Temple." So they began by killing the seventy leaders. "Defile the Temple!" the LORD commanded. "Fill its courtyards with the bodies of those you kill! Go!" So they went throughout the city and did as they were told." (Ezekiel 9:5-7 NLT)
==============================================================================

Witch Killing more brutal than Oyedepo's slaps

You should not let a sorceress live. (Exodus 22:17 NAB)

A man or a woman who acts as a medium or fortuneteller shall be put to death by stoning; they have no one but themselves to blame for their death. (Leviticus 20:27 NAB)
==============================================================================


The top peaceful countries are atheistic countries or countries with a very secular government

logicboy:

There's more to life than preaching. Preaching is a one-sided debate.

Christian apologist prefer websites to forums. They put their message up and just want people to only read it.

Go and look for them.